UKH

Hi, I'm a bit unsure whether to post this here or in the "Gear" forum, but this should be fine.

I've been bouldering since June/July (currently around 6b level), and am in the process of selecting and buying my second (i.e.: more intermediate / advanced) pair of climbing shoes, but am having a repeated problem with my feet in the process. I've bought, tried on and ended up returning quite a few shoes in the last weeks – different brands, different sizes, etc. (This online buying comes as a result of there not being particularly good in-person shops near me.)

The issue I have is that with all of them, the tops of the bent big toe knuckles are very painful when I stand in the shoes or apply any pressure through my toes. Sometimes the pain in my right toe is more manageable, and I think I can just push through it, but my left never eases.

When I take off the shoes after 10-15 mins of passively wearing them on the couch, my big toe knuckles have big dents (/ bruises) in them and hurt for a more few minutes before cooling back down. This being the case, I haven't felt comfortable enough keeping any of the shoes I've tried and actually taking them to the gym – if the pain is so intense just at home, then I fear climbing in them will be a few notches worse.

Having tried on (and worn around the house on / off for days) so many shoes, I can safely bet that it's not the fact that they don't fit me. None of the shoes I've tried have been overly downsized. For example, my current frontrunners are the Scarpa Veloces in size EU 43.5 – street shoe size is 45 –and the shoes, apart from the knuckle issue, fit mostly pretty well.

So – is this normal? Do I just need to settle for a pair of shoes and bite through this pain until the skin on my knuckles hardens? What am I doing wrong?

(For reference, my previous pair of shoes is an oversized set of Evolv Defys, which obviously do not cause this issue)

Cheers

Sounds a bit like you're making the classic mistake that everyone makes, of going from your first flat beginner shoe, to aggressive bouldering/steep sport shoe. If you've been climbing a matter of months you won't be at a point where you need a shoe that's scrunching your toes up like that.

Sizing is all over the place. I'm 44 street shoe. Katana Laces in 44 fit me perfectly. Skwamas in 44 pinched and rubbed like hell...I had to go down to 42.5 and suddenly they just moulded to my foot like a glove, no pressure points, so sizing up doesn't always mean more comfortable!

It will save you a lot of time and effort to just get to a decent shop sometime and just try on every pair they have. Ignore the 'type' of shoe, just try them all and see what fits your foot right. You'll be forever cursing your painful feet and binning shoes until you go and do this....it's the only useful answer I'm afraid.

FWIW - I switched to wearing socks after a few years of climbing, avoids the rubbing issue and stops your shoes stinking.

In the old days, they used to size rock boots (in the days they were boots not shoes) exactly the same as shoes, so if you wore 9 or 10 in shoes you would subtract a size (or two+ if pushing the grades) in your rock boots/shoes.

Nowadays it's a lottery of different manufacturers as to whether they quote the "real" size or if more likely they do that subtraction already so it's the pair you'd need (in their opinion) if you wear xyz of normal shoes.

However some advice out there is still based on the old assumption that you must subtract 2 sizes from your street shoes. It's a balance between performance and wearability and in the aggressiveness (e.g. downturn) and sizing you have clearly over cooked it. Get the same shoes half a size bigger or a less aggressive pair. See if you can wear them in a shop for 10 minutes just walking about before you make the decision to see if they are still bearable

Shoe length (size), width/volume (wide/high, normal/medium, narrow/low) and toe box shape all matter. You need to figure out where your feet fit into this 3-dimensional space, and then (ideally) find a shoe that is close. Rock and Run have a great sizing guide but it's only for the shoes they sell (bananafingers has something similar but not as comprehensive). A good starting point, but you can't beat trying everything in a shop on -- as others have suggested above.

https://rockrun.com/blogs/the-flash-rock-run-blog/rock-climbing-shoe-sizing...

Ouch, I'd say be very careful with that. I've ended up with permanent problems in my big toe knuckle likely due to aggressive shoes. Worth noting I was not a beginner when I caused the damage (had already been climbing for 15 years or so) and the shoes felt pretty comfortable. I would say keep searching till you find something that doesn't cause pain. I've found technical but flattish shoes that don't bend the big toe so much to work well for me, eg scarpa maestros fit my feet really well.

Personally I decided early on the below position of downturned shoes was not for me. People have climbed harder routes than I'll ever climb in flat shoes, and crushing my knuckles just isn't fun. I'm a shit climber though, so my opinion is worthless. 

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aAwNV4R_700b.jpg

Are you trying shoes that suit your toe profile? Some shoes have the point over the big toe, others more over the centre of the toes. If your big toe is the longest and the shoes have a more central point, you may be twisting the toe sideways as well as down, which might add to your discomfort. Choose last shapes which suit your foot shape.

Sounds like you could have a discrepancy in your foot sizes too if it’s always the left toe that hurts more? Would be worth bearing in mind when trying on new pairs...

I find climbing shoe sizing totally random, my street shoe size is 6.5 , my climbing shoes vary between 5.5 and 8 

I'm in the same boat - poorly-fitting shoes messed up my big toe knuckles. They were never any more uncomfortable than I thought climbing shoes were supposed to be, but after a week-long climbing trip the joint effectively seized up and no longer bends.

The main fit issue I had wasn't that the shoes were too small, but that they were too narrow and too second-toe-focussed; this was compressing my big toe inwards and putting weird torsional forces on the knuckle joint that it's not really designed to take. Even flat and oversized shoes hurt now if they're too symmetric and not wide enough for me.

To the OP - look at the shape of your feet and see how closely it's matching your shoes. They'll never be exactly the same, but if you have a relatively square forefoot don't cram it into a really pointy toebox; if your big toe is the longest, don't cram it into shoes that force the big toe towards a central point (I find 5:10s really bad for this). Don't just ignore toe knuckle pain or you risk ending up permanently damaging the joints. 

I am experiencing the same problem, on my third pair of shoes (not agressively curved down either) in about a year, currently i have been putting plasters on the top of my big toe and wrapping in climbing tape, but still sore. Not sure why this has been happening, the climbing shoe size is about the same as my usual shoes. Maybe i need a different shaped shoe.

There is a degree of having to push through the pain with new climbing shoes if you want something reasonably agressive, after 2 or 3 sessions the shoes will have softened a bit and your feet will have got used to them. but... they should never be unbearably painfull, if they are then they are the wrong shape for your foot!

the Scarpa veloce is made for a square, wide foot, which incidentally is perfect for me! i have just bought a pair which are agressively downsized and a bugger to get on, but once on they are probably the most comfortable pair of shoes i have because they are actually the right shape for my feet!

look at the manufacturers websites and see what shape last various shoes are made on. some use a similar last across their range, but many such as scrapa make drasically different shaped shoes based on different shaped lasts. https://www.scarpa.co.uk/climbing-shoes/veloce/

compare the above to the furia for example which is a narrow, assymetric fit. https://www.scarpa.co.uk/climbing-shoes/furia-s/

+1. Five Tens are a complete no-no for me as they force the big toe inwards. *Generally* speaking I find Ocun and La Sportiva shoes leave your big toe more straight, which is much more comfortable.

Neither of my big toes move much any more, although fortunately don't hurt apart from long mountain days.