UKH

Ok, seen as the guide writers have yet to tell us what exactly they mean by "big gear". What do we think they mean by it and how does it compare?

(#6 missing but I think its fair to assume we all regard that as a big one)

maybe I should have included the 6 in the poll for the people who regard that as the only big one

Seeing.

Cams are small, medium or large. Pretty easy to work out what the large ones are.

Not surprised to see most people setting the boundary above blue. I'm more familiar with DMM sizes than BD and for me the key indicator is that DMM sell standard packs of dragons up to Blue. Anything beyond that is an extra bought individually and therefore non-standard in my opinion. They're also vastly less commonly seen. I've got a Grey, but I almost never rack it and often leave it at home or in the car. But then, I'm bad at cracks and truly awful at wide ones, so anything I'd need the Grey for is likely to be a horror show route for me anyway. Certainly wished I had it with me for Forked Lightning Crack though! A pair of blues just about did the job but I wasn't particularly comfortable.

Same for me. Anything above Blue (old Friend 3) is a special purpose piece I'd only carry if I really thought I was going to need it.

I like to keep an open mind.. but you lot are clearly wrong

3 is big - and above 3 is even biggerer

Interesting.

My Wild Country Purple is a 3.

Wild Country Blue is a 3.5

Both rigid stems but they were the same size as flexible friends.

Never owned a 4 as I always borrowed one from human friends. If I remember correctly, Inverted V at Stanage is less bold with a size 4 (silver).

I didn't realise until just now that there is a slight over lap between 3/4/5.

So a tipped out 3, a well placed 4, and an over-cammed 5 should all be able to get in the the same spot (theoretically!)

Grey and above is too big and heavy to carry as a matter of course.

Medium size:

https://gearjunkie.com/climbing/biggest-climbing-cams

Large?

https://gripped.com/news/black-diamond-introduces-a-21-camalot/

Depends on which guidebook you're reading. If it's a guide for Vedauwoo then #2 might be a small cam, in the Avon guide that might be a large cam. 

The big grey might seem big when you rack it...but it's still only fist size. And a fist crack is hardly wide in the grand scheme of cracks?

I've gone purple and above.

You could have added a "don't know" option, for those unfamiliar with those particular cams .... and maybe "don't care" for those who think the whole exercise is pointless.

I guess Holdtickler assumed that he was posting a poll fit for the modern world that didn't need to be tailored to the prehistoric...

Oh dear! Am I somehow not "current" because I'm not familiar with Camalot sizings? And there I was thinking that my Dragons and Dragonflys were pretty cool! Ah well .....

The dragons are the same colours so you could surely have worked it out?

Duh! Completely circular argument. Yes, of course you can work it out if you already have that information - but I didn't, and nor would many climbers, I suspect.

The point is that guidebook descriptions have to contain information which is meaningful at the time of reading, to as large a proportion of users as possible. You can't simply assume that everyone knows things like which makes of cam use similar size/colour schemes.

Using Camelot sizings as a yardstick, or any other specific model of cam, simply won't work for enough climbers - unless extra space is devoted to cam size/colour comparison charts somewhere in the book, in order to make the information useful to all. Can't see it happening myself.

I just thought you would've realised by looking at your cams that the colour spread was rather familiar.

Rimsky Korsakov (E5 6a)

Description mentions a large cam, which unless I missed something was a gold, not exactly large...

Like Tom has said, better to not mention it than it be a subjective wording choice.

That's not even subjective! Don't think anyone would consider a gold 'large'.

well 1 clearly does

Yes and you could've googled it and educated yourself in far less time than it took you to post your grumbly post on a poll thread that you don't care about

I included the now standardised colours,  I felt that was enough spoon-feeding for people to participate in poll, or choose not too...

What are those sizes in HB quadcams?

It's the widest crack that isn't an offwidth.  Once it's an offwidth the guidebook telling you that "big cams" might be useful is a bit moot, so it might well be the biggest cam worth mentioning specifically in the route description.

The object of my post was to express an opinion, which is that using a specific make of cam as a yardstick in guidebooks (and by extension, the whole basis of your poll), is not a workable idea. You don't use information in guidebooks which is only useful to some climbers, or requires further "self-education" in the form of Google searches. And I wasn't feeling grumbly, by the way - just didn't particularly like your idea. Don't let it spoil your day

I was just poking mild fun, of course, but I thought it was common knowledge that virtually all of the cams available today (in big sizes) share the same colour/size system?

Can't argue with that logic. I've shied away from quite a few grit routes where 'big cams might be useful' but the offending crack can't really been seen from the ground, because I'm a wimp and only own up to the big silver. I might have to revisit some of those...

Sounds like my old HB 3.8 would fit there as well!

Anyone else who owns or owned a Quadcam 3.8?

Hi bpm - I've been reading your posts for what feels like forever! And I don't mean that in a bad way, we are just UKC veterans. But I don't think I've clicked on your profile before oddly - or at least not for a very long time. But having done so I see you are an instructor. I'm quite surprised in doing that as your job (or part of your job) you haven't used just about all the different types of cams by now over the years? Do you tend to just climb on your rack all the time?

I suspect that since DMM dropped Demons and 4CUs from their line - maybe 5 or more years back? And likewise, Wild Country stopped doing single axle Friends besides micros, for "normal" size cams you have to have been climbing over a decade to know sizes beyond the "colours" that started with Camalots. I'm in the lucky position of having both Dragons and Camalots, so tend to think of purple (Dragon 1) to blue (Dragon 5) as "normal" cams these days. I suppose it is roughly like Friend 1 to Friend 3.5 (I replaced my mainly rigid early 90s Friends with DMM 4CUs with the same sizing early 2000s) were my "normal" sized cams for the first 20 years of my climbing.

But what about Camelot 7+8!!!

and the magical beings that are Big Bros. Enough Big Bros in a crack and you’ve got a lovely ladder.

I set up the poll in parallel to the other thread about the same topic, in which people linked size comparison charts and the info that the main brands are now standard colours. I guess you missed the other thread. I couldn't have satisfied every google-adverse user no matter how I'd set up the poll really. Nor could I edit the poll once posted (I was going to include descriptors like thin hands, hands, fists etc.)

Well if you gave me a Japanese guidebook I wouldn't find any of the text in it very useful A joke with a point within... The point of the poll was to show that some of the information given in the guidebooks might mean different things to different people which in the grand scheme may mean it may only be useful to some climbers (if they share the definitions of sizing with the guide writers, for the route in question, at least )

p.s. my first cams were trango flexicams so I know what it's like to have a sizing system that nobody else gets. 

As was pointed out in the first thread, that colour scheme is well on the way to becoming industry standard.  Any new climber getting their first set of cams today is almost certainly going to get either BD Camalots, DMM Dragons or WC new Friends - and they all match. 

Totem and Metolius seen to be the only hold outs, and you don't see them anywhere near as often.

For a new-ish climber, the colours used here are going to make perfect sense. Anyone who's been climbing long enough to have cams that don't match this system has probably been climbing long enough to work it out..?

There is an "abstain" button - it's the one at the top of your browser that looks like a backwards arrow 😁

Surely the size of the cam (queue Ted Crilly) depends on how far away it is ? I mean it could be big and a long way away, or small and very close  ?

Large = yellow, blue and silver

Very large = silver and up

"The thin slab to large cams at the overlap and a sigh of relief."

vs

"At the overlap, teeter boldly left, although it is possible to protect this with very large cams."

I've got a furry 3.8 and have borrowed a 5 (and on the same scale an HB6 but not a QC).  I'd say the 3.8 was large. The 5 is huge and 6 ginormous (chicken wings).

My first cams were mostly 4CUs, with two 3CUs at the smaller end, and a random Friend and a random Clog cam. All used, and acquired in small batches. Unfortunately, it seems that DMM changed their colour-coding at some point to fall in line with Wild Country - and so I had something like three blue cams and two gold cams, all different sizes. I had one partner who point-blank refused to climb on them because he was never sure what he was reaching for at first glance.

Totems match apart from silver (yellow) and gold (orange). The orange didn't exist originally when they decided to make silver yellow, and so I assume they thought it'd be sensible to make gold something else as well to avoid confusion.

Totem being Totem, purple to red (Camelot 0.5 > 1) are normal colours but then they go to Orange. Not miles away from yellow but makes racking biners a pain if you're as OCD about racking biners as me.

You're right - above purple it matches.  I only use the smallest three Totems - above that I switch back to DMM.  So for my rack, two out of three Totems are 'wrong'!  The black should be yellow, and the yellow should be grey...

Black Totem: 12-19mm

Blue Totem: 14-22mm

Yellow Totem: 17-28mm

Purple Totem: 21-34mm

Red Zero: 8-13mm, Red Dragonfly 9-13mm

Yellow Zero: 10-16mm, Gold Dragonfly 10-15mm

Blue Zero: 13-22mm, Blue Dragonfly 12-18mm

Grey Zero: 16-26mm, Silver Dragon 16-25mm

Purple Zero: 20-33mm, Purple Dragon 20-33mm

I think they can be explained by neither the black nor the orange existing in the original range. I imagine they decided to make silver yellow for aesthetic or practical reasons (silver not being particularly vibrant, and the colour-coding of their units being bright plastic wire sleeves and slings rather than anodised cams), and having done that they obviously couldn't re-use it for the cams that should actually be gold/yellow.

I just rack them on the 'correct' (IE Camalot colour) krab, job done.

That's true. But if that's what everyone did who's not familiar with Camalots and unaware of the transferability of the size/colour scheme, then the poll responses constitute a biased sample, so statistically valueless (all the more so if anyone daring to question the value of the poll is made to feel unwelcome). Fine if it's just a bit of fun; not so good if it's a serious proposition about what to put in guidebooks.

All of which sounds perfectly reasonable in the context of a forum discussion; my point is that the information needs to be made more explicit if it's to be included in guidebooks. A section at the beginning on cam size equivalents - a chart showing the colour scheme and the sizes of common makes which correspond - would do it. We can't just take it for granted that everyone knows or can work it out - I don't think so, anyway.

I have to admit that I have limited sympathy for people who don't know the Camalot/Dragon sizing/colour scheme. It's extremely easy to find and has become very standard (not necessarily a good thing imho).

This website is great for comparing different cam brands: https://cam-parison.com/ admittedly it doesn't have the full range of WC Tech Friends so won't satisfy everyone, but it does have Heliums and 4CUs so not just the most modern stuff.

Here's a link to one showing current cam models for BD Camalot, DMM Dragon, WC Friend and Totem Totems ordered by size: https://cam-parison.com/#items=dg0,dg1,tte,ttf,tth,tt1,boc,bod,boe,bog,bo1,...

Picture attached for those that don't want to follow link.

Looking at the listed order of the brands for the different sizes is interesting to show the relative gaps in the ranges of each brand.

As I seem to be the resident UKC cam-parison evangelist here's a cam-parison for that set of cams: https://cam-parison.com/#items=dg0,dg1,df2,df3,df4,tte,ttf,tth,tt1,wy1,wy2,...

I actually disagree that the Black should be Yellow - the Yellow Dragonfly, Yellow Zero Friend and Yellow Z4 are all noticeably smaller. The Black Totem is actually closest in size to the Blue Dragonfly - which defintely shouldn't be blue because it's noticeably smaller than the Blue Dragon! All the other Blue Cams (BD Z4 0.3, BD C4 0.3, WC Zero Friend 0.3, DMM Dragon 00, Totem Totem 0.65)  are a very similar size as can be seen in this camparison... (sorry I'll stop with the camparisons soon): https://cam-parison.com/#items=df3,df4,tte,ttf,tth,wy2,wy3,wy4,dgz,df5,boc,...

So actually the Blue Dragonfly should be black! I really like the Black Totem and to a lesser extent my friends Blue Dragonfly when I get to use it, which I think is in part because they're a noticeably different size from any other cam or microcam.

Yes the Totem colouring system does make sense, especially when considering that the Black and Orange were later additions.

I actually prefer the Totem colouring system to the Camalot one, grey is such a boring colour, makes the grey krab look a bit like a quickdraw when looking down on my harness, rather than a cam.

I agree that it's completely statistically valueless!

I was half thinking the same when I wrote my post... Totem sizing doesn't quite match in with any of the other brands!  

Yellow Totem (0.8) should definitely be grey/silver, if we're going to keep that colour (I don't mind it because my qds are red!) although it is a little larger than most grey cams.

Blue Totem is fine.

Black Totem is an odd half size between the normal progression of yellow and blue.  Maybe you're right, we should insert an extra colour there and it may as well be black.  So now we need to petition DMM to recolour their blue Dragonfly as black to match...

Yeah absolutely, I always tell people it's grey sized, it is a little larger, but definitely acceptable to be the same colour.

Yep.

I think that's an excellent idea - would definitely sign!

It's not without value. Even if it excludes those incapable of operating a search engine (my sincerest apologies), the data, a sample size of 250+ is still likely to represent them.  It still illuminates quite a significant discrepancy in the range if interpretations from different people. If the guide description writer's opinions  are equally as varied then some folks are gonna at worst get caught with a gold where they need a purple and at best a bit of training lugging bigger gear than needed.

In the UK that we tend to avoid unnecessary gear beta, not arguing that, but info is included when deemed important. If it is important information then it might as well be clear and free from ambiguity surely? 

It's Walker's crisps all over again, everyone knows the international standard for colours vs flavours is green = cheese and onion and blue = salt and vinegar. It makes sense, green tastes oniony and blue tastes vinegary. 

Yet Walkers, in contravention with well established international laws, flout this with the reverse colour scheme. Since when did blue taste oniony I ask you? utter nonse. Same with cams. 

Some logic at last!

In keeping with the general vibe of the thread, I feel someone should post a colour comparison chart..

Time for a government petition - should easily pass the 100,000 threshold given how annoying it is. We could also ask for a rule banning ready salted in mixed bags of crisps.

I couldn't agree more - with your last point, that is. Which is exactly why I have an issue with your poll: because you quote a specific make of cam and a colour correspondence, but omit the information about which other manufacturers use the same colour/size scheme (and which don't). Believe it or not, there are significant numbers of climbers who would need that information provided explicitly in a guidebook (yes, it's Googleable, but it's at-the-crag complete information we need for guidebooks, as far as possible). I'm one such example: I'm an experienced climber, more than most (dare I say it), and also not at all search engine averse; it just happens that I've never owned any Camalots, and almost never used anyone else's, so the colour equivalence with Dragons went completely under my radar. I simply didn't know - why would I? I can probably think of half a dozen climbers off the top of my head who'd be in the same boat. Such people are effectively excluded from your poll (unless/until they go off and do some research). Why make the information partial in that way when it's such an easy fix - just extend your table to include the other common manufacturers, or at the very least point out the correspondence with Dragons and WC Friends. That's almost certainly what a guidebook editor would insist on - if they agreed to go down this road at all, that is.

It really needs no more than a line in the preamble that says something like 'Cam sizes are given as colours of the popular system used by BD, DMM and WC.'

yawn...as I've said, all that was in the other thread. I can't edit the post nor the poll, sorry, deal with it... But I think it's served its purpose. Start your own poll if you're so bothered.

I remember reading an article a few years ago by Mr.C.Craggs of this parish, suggesting that Friends should be renamed b***ards, as whichever one you tried first it would undoubtedly be the wrong size.

Come on then guide writers, tell us what your votes were then!  It will be interesting to see if any of us need to recalibrate our definitions.

I didn't vote, and I wrote the original 'big cams helpful' comment. Personally a 'big cam' is fist-sized or thereabouts. Presumably, the next question is 'how big is your fist'?

Chris

No, the next question is do you also call the the offwidth sizes "big cam" then? 

Hey Chris,

Perhaps you should explain in the introduction that ‘big cam’ means roughly Camalot 4 (or whatever) and ‘very big cam’ means Camalot 5. 

In the same way that 5.10a is roughly E1…

Tom

I would hope that if the routes had an offwidth the description would mention that and you could make your own judgement,

Chris

Very good but what if it was for a wide break, whose width is a surprise till you get there?

Looking baffled as have dragon cams?😂

That’s on sight  climbing….personally would rather figure it out for myself….😃

I once met a climbing partner in Kathmandu,  I'd bought the ropes and he'd bought the rack- I'd been talking about BD sizes and he'd been talking about DMM- cue last minute shopping for some bigger cams!