Best ascender for some tree work

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Removed User 02 Aug 2022

I've got some canopy reduction and general high level pruning to do on some trees in my garden. This will require some basic rope work and I've plenty of climbing kit that will cover it except for an ascender.

So, what would be the best ascender for the job? I am thinking Petzl Croll or shunt, but are there other (cheaper/better) options? I don't think it will see much climbing use but I would like something that could cross over to top rope soloing and self-rescue type applications.

Thanks in advance for the debate/argument...

 Fellover 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

The most obvious thing to get would be a micro traxion (or similar Edelrid Spoc, nano traxion). Won't be as good for your tree work as a handled ascender like an ascension, but has loads of climbing uses, from top rope solo and self rescue as you mentioned, to hauling and simul climbing.

I wouldn't get a shunt. I wouldn't get a croll unless you're also into caving or want to go and climb a really long free hanging rope somewhere.

You do really need two ascenders... though of course you could use a prusik as a substitute for one of them. If you want an excuse to buy a grigri, this would be a good one.

Post edited at 11:46
1
 JLS 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

I wouldn't get the Croll. Petzel Ascension with the handle will be much nicer to use.

That said, a shunt is a very versatile bit of kit and would be a good addition to your rack which might be worth lose of the convenience of a handle if only for occasional use.

2
 JLS 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

>"I would like something that could cross over to top rope soloing"

DMM Buddy is a good top rope soloing option but of limited other use.

As Fellover said, a Grigri as the lower of two devices is great option as it allows descent.

 wiwwim 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

A second hand caving ladder may also be useful, especially if you make a tree house when you are finished.  Jumars can be cheap on ebay.

 Fellover 02 Aug 2022
In reply to JLS:

> That said, a shunt is a very versatile bit of kit and would be a good addition to your rack which might be worth lose of the convenience of a handle if only for occasional use.

Is a shunt very versatile? I had access to one for a while and there was nothing I wanted to use it for. What do you use one for?

I know that shunts used to be popular for top rope soloing, hence the term 'shunting' or to 'shunt' a route. They do seem pretty ideal for it given the smooth feed and ability to descend. Unfortunately there's been a few trs accidents involving shunts, so while some people still use them, they are in general not recommended for trs these days.

I agree that the loss of convenience of not having a handle for a day or two of tree work is worth it for getting a useful device afterwards. I basically never use or carry my handled ascenders, but I use or carry my microtrax pretty regularly.

In reply to Fellover:

> I know that shunts used to be popular for top rope soloing, hence the term 'shunting' or to 'shunt' a route. They do seem pretty ideal for it given the smooth feed and ability to descend.

You can descend but it would be very VERY fast with a sudden stop at the end 

Removed User 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

It seems like Gri Gri seems like the most versatile option for the 50 quid(ish) outlay on any of the suggested devices and of course you can move to abseil mode very easily.  Kids are getting to the age where I hope to take them to climbing walls every now and again.

Note I am not planning on climbing the rope, all trees can be ascended via branch climbing so this is really for protection hence so a handled device is not required.

 Fellover 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

> You can descend but it would be very VERY fast with a sudden stop at the end 

Good point, I know they're not really meant to be used for descending (my post you quoted is definitely misleading/incorrect), but I certainly had a friend who would use the shunt to descend small sections they were working rather than switching to another device to ab. Doing something like this I believe https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/starting_out/self_belay_using_a_petzl_shu...

 Fellover 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

You're basically looking for a top rope solo setup then. General advice these days is to use two separate devices for redundancy in case you put one on incorrectly.

Having said that, I'd personally be more than happy to do what you're describing with just a grigri. I would tie a knot underneath it, or tie in short when I got to the work location for some extra security and peace of mind.

Bear in mind that the rope probably won't won't automatically smoothly feed through the grigri as you climb, so you'll have to pull it through manually, shouldn't be too much of a problem when climbing a tree. This depends on rope diameter/stiffness and how much rope weight is below the grigri, you can encourage it to 'auto-feed' if you have a small weight at the bottom of the rope.

Post edited at 13:28
 JLS 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Fellover:

>"What do you use one for?"

As a rope solo back-up device. (DMM buddy as main device on separate line)

Ascending device before I got a Petzel Ascension.

As an abseil back-up when using double ropes.

 GrahamD 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

Very obvious, but make sure your chain saw blade is enclosed whilst hauling it up there !

 Fellover 02 Aug 2022
In reply to JLS:

> >"What do you use one for?"

> As a rope solo back-up device. (DMM buddy as main device on separate line)

> Ascending device before I got a Petzel Ascension.

I'd use a microtrax for these. Not saying a shunt is inappropriate, I'm just thinking if I was Hardonicus and choosing between me saying a microtrax is a good addition to your rack and you saying a shunt is a good addition to your rack.

> As an abseil back-up when using double ropes.

This is admittedly something a microtrax can't do. Would you do this in a climbing scenario or is it for rope access type stuff? I can't think why you'd rather use a shunt than a prusik for this in a climbing context.

In reply to Removed User:

As others have said the micro trax is a vary handy device and can be used as an ok ish ascender.

I find having a handled rope clamp like petzl ascension really handy, the petzl ones are overpriced though, climbing technology, grivel, fixe all make perfectly decent ones for a lot cheaper.

I've found that a rope clamp and gri-gri can be made to climb a rope very effectively. Plus super easy to transition to abseil.

 JLS 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Fellover:

>"Would you do this in a climbing scenario or is it for rope access type stuff?"

Most recently I've been using the shunt for the final ab after TR soloing sport routes. Yes, you could use a prussic but as I would have just used the shunt as the back-up on the ascent I have it to hand.

Many years ago on a long multipitch ab on a hot foreign day I was struggling to hold the rope due the rope quickly burning my hand as I lowered. After that slightly harrowing event I bought a shunt and never looked back. I just like the shunt because it's very reassuring if you have to faff stripping a route or untangling a rope etc while abbing.

 Fellover 02 Aug 2022
In reply to JLS:

> Most recently I've been using the shunt for the final ab after TR soloing sport routes. Yes, you could use a prussic but as I would have just used the shunt as the back-up on the ascent I have it to hand.

Ah that makes sense - still won't be trading my microtrax in for a shunt though!

 Kimberley 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

Great to see all the 'helpful ' advice however tree work is very different to roped soloing  and ascending in a rock climbing environment. One of the main considerations is that branches and twigs can get into some of the suggested devices and cause them to fail. 

One of the most popular pieces of kit used in tree surgery is the Petzl Zigzag or alternatively a classic prussic, usually about 7mm.

Search tree climbing techniques to understand it better and of course its a free world so people can make their own choices....

Post edited at 15:57
Removed User 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Kimberley:

I take your point but its a couple of days work only so I don't want to fork out on tree surgery specific kit when I can 'make do' with climbing specific device that will have future use.

 Fellover 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Kimberley:

Tree work is somewhat different, but there's clearly pretty big similarities in the gear used. E.g. a Petzl Ascentree is just two Ascensions riveted together!

It's a fair point that there are differences, but speaking for myself, if I was doing a day or two of work in a tree, there is no way I'd go out and buy a piece of kit like a zigzag which costs >£150 and which I'll have no further use for after that weekend, when I could buy something that'll help me out for the two days of work and then be useful going forwards. If it was my job or I was doing weeks worth of work I'd think differently.

1
In reply to Fellover:

> Tree work is somewhat different, but there's clearly pretty big similarities in the gear used. E.g. a Petzl Ascentree is just two Ascensions riveted together!

> It's a fair point that there are differences, but speaking for myself, if I was doing a day or two of work in a tree, there is no way I'd go out and buy a piece of kit like a zigzag which costs >£150 and which I'll have no further use for after that weekend, when I could buy something that'll help me out for the two days of work and then be useful going forwards. If it was my job or I was doing weeks worth of work I'd think differently.

The zig-zag is basically a metal prussik that you can't cut with a chainsaw AFAIK. Whatever the OP decides to do, please make sure you can't cut your rope!

Post edited at 19:59
 CantClimbTom 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Kimberley:

If we are approaching from that angle I'd agree and would have suggested unicender as a brilliant all rounder, but specialist arborist kit is expensive, normally requires ropes thicker than climbing ropes, and it sounds like OP wants to prune a few trees then use the kit for climbing purposes afterwards, so IMHO the grigri and ascender option is better in this case. Although personally I've converted to the top ascender not having a handle to the point I donated my handled ascender to someone as I no longer use it

 flatlandrich 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

Kimberley's post above is quite right. I spent a large portion of my working life doing tree work and although there is a lot of cross over there's a lot of difference too.  Personally I've never used any kind of ascender other than a prusik or similar friction knot. 

You don't need to spend any money really. A rope, harness and the ability to tie a bowline and prusik will enable you to do most tree work perfectly safely if you know the techniques. Ascenders can make things physically easier but can also complicate matters. 

 flatlandrich 03 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

Some other things also spring to mind if you're still planning on doing this work. Rock climbing gear is much, much lighter and rated less than tree work equipment and so more delicate. A razor sharp pruning saw will trash it an instant. Also a rock climbing harness is for 'fall arrest' not 'work positioning' so expect some discomfort to say the least if you're going to be hanging in it for any length of time. Finally, if you were planning on taking a chainsaw up with you I'd really, REALLY rethink that. If you can't do it with a hand saw you're most probably out of your depth. Remember, if you have an accident nobody's coming to get you in a hurry. 

Removed User 03 Aug 2022
In reply to flatlandrich:

I have a chainsaw but will be approaching this work with handsaws for certain!

 Jimp97 03 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

I wouldn't recommend doing a canopy reduction without the right gear or knowledge but I'm not saying its not possible for a competent climber to carry out (as long as its their property)! Personally I'd use a two rope system, ideally thicker and less stretch the better, use two prussiks one on each rope and look how to climb with a moving rope system. Climb as high as possible and setup to two individual anchors, both must be thinker than your fore arm and make sure they're on different stems. You could make some makeshift cambium savers with slings and locking crabs, I would also make a side strop out of some cord a prussik and a crabs.  Make sure you cut small and take your time with rope management!

 Offwidth 03 Aug 2022
In reply to Jimp97:

I'd second that. Still, I've seen too many accidents in trees from inexperienced people doing such work....I'd pay a tree surgeon.

 oldie 03 Aug 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

When I was a student another climber and myself got a job clearing a wooded plot of land. I now shudder to remember swinging around in my sitharness holding a petrol driven chainsaw. Fortunately much of the work was possible with bow saws. My mate had experience in forestry but even so he had to take himself to hospital with a leg wound when he didn't allow enough time for the chainsaw blade to stop revolving (ground level).

£100 between us for a week's work camping on site. Employer:"I'm assuming you're insured."

 Jimp97 03 Aug 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Completely depends on what tree it is as well, the size of it, condition and so on. There's so many variables involved and that's why we're insured but if its your tree you can do what you what and how you want, as long as its not got a TPO on it.

Tree Surgeons with all the appropriate training and equipment have accidents, so taking on a canopy reduction which will require doing limbs walks with stretchy ropes and no positioning harness sounds too much to me. 

 Michael Gordon 03 Aug 2022
In reply to Jimp97:

As you say, depends on the tree. From the OP's description it doesn't sound like anything too serious, though what the tree will look like at the end of it is perhaps another matter...

 Quickdrawmgraw 04 Aug 2022
In reply to Removed User:

Are they high ? 

I use a lockjack and arb rope and moving rope technique. I would not recomend using dynamic rope for this . And always anchor above you . Don't limb walk too far without further work positioning anchors.   Arb rope goes down to about 10mm so your ab rope would work with a prussick, the thicker the better, use a second prussick and the other end of it to create a second anchor . Try to use a cambium saver to save both the tree and you ropes . I would not trust the gear loops on my rock harness with my chainsaw .  Your ropes will get wrecked .

Actually cancell the job unless you have a full tree climbing kit ! 

Where are you based . I'm available for hire !

 Report

 New Reply Report

Removed User 04 Aug 2022
In reply to Quickdrawmgraw:

Highest is a Eucalyptus at about 80 foot and everything can be done with a bow saw. I am proposing to use some old rope and keep a secondary point of attachment where required using a sling. 

Fancy a tree surgeon suggesting that a tree surgeon is essential, it really isn't too bigger a job - thanks for the pitch though!

1
In reply to Removed User:

Like the above I'm also a tree surgeon.

If you're insistent on doing it just be mindful:

- Different tree species behave very differently. Eucalyptus can be both snappy and stringy for example. Be careful trusting it. How thin is safe is dependent on a wide range of specifics. If in doubt, go thicker.

- When cutting, on the smaller stuff make sure you use step cuts and hand remove. Fell out the bigger bits with a gob and back cut. Never cut straight through the branch from top to bottom. All species (especially Eucalyptus) will snap and peel way before you finish the cut. This will result in branches twisting and peeling off, falling totally out of control, hitting you, and/or getting tangled in your rope systems forcing open devices. If you're anchored below the intended cut onthe branch that peels then you're going to get something trapped. It'll also leave a big wound damaging the tree.. Eucalyptus is pretty heavy per unit volume so don't underestimate the forces involved even on smaller bits. Wear a helmet.

- Set up two independent systems to protect against both rope and anchor failure.

- Take extreme care with your saw and your rope. Under tension a thin rock climbing rope will cut faster than you can say 'oh shit'. This is why arb ropes are massive and we use two of them. Never make a cut near your rope.

- Never cut out of balance. Never rush.

- Never cut anything that you think will hit your ropes. Sods law states that even the smallest touch will end up sending the branch rocketing down to your harness.

- If you're going to be moving around a lot, rig up a cambium saver on each system to save the tree (and your ropes) and to remove (what can become significant) friction.

- Try to set up your systems such that you can get out of the tree and down to floor with one hand immediately if you get injured or something goes wrong. 

- When it comes to pruning specifics, all depends on species and reason for pruning. But in general, if you're in doubt, use the 1:3 ratio.

- Let someone know what you're doing.

Good luck. It's definitely possible. All depends on your attitude to risk and the size of the job. If it goes well you'll wonder what the fuss was about. If it doesn't... well you'll see why arb insurance is so expensive!

Post edited at 11:58
Removed User 04 Aug 2022
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

A quality post - thanks, I've read that carefully!


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...