UKH

Anyone got any experience with shooting fully mechanical without a light meter?

I took up digital photography eagerly in 2003 after learning on film in the 80s/90s, but have recently picked up a Nikon FM and have experimented with film again. 

I like the idea of going that extra step to shooting on a fully mechanical range finder without a light meter, purely for fun. I have read about "sunny 16", but whenever I have tried using this to figure out the settings this way, I am at least 2 stops away (in either direction) from what my Nikon FM's meter comes up with. 

So, I suppose, my main questions are:

1. How forgiving is film (in terms of stops of light in either direction)?

2. I suppose overexposure is either to deal with, so should I add a stop if in doubt?

3. Is black and white any easier to deal with?

Any tips welcome!

f8 and be there !

some films are more forgiving than others and if you do your own processing gives a bit more latitude but i'd say if you are going to the expense of shooting film these days best get yourself a decent light meter. I had a gossen digisix which paid itself over many times. there is a knack to using them but its not hard and lets you be a bit more creative with highlighting and shooting in difficult (interesting) light situations

It can be very liberating - sunny f/16 for metering, zone focussing, so the only decision left is when to press the shutter.

Black and white is more forgiving than colour neg (colour slide is much less tolerant than either negative film).  If in doubt, over-expose.  HP-5 and DD-X developer always did the trick for me!

What rangefinder are you using?

Gordon Stainforth is your man for this.

I will watch this thread with interest. I've little to contribute, my experience of B/W was when I was wee as my Dad would occasionally turn the bathroom into a darkroom. The only time I've done anything like this was taking his Rolleiflex TLR into the Cairngorms about 25 years ago. The results were good, but I cannot remember for the life of me what settings I used or even how I arrived at them, though I have used a Nikon FM as a light meter for it with some success.

Keep us posted on how you get on.

As noted elsewhere here B&W film is the most forgiving of the wrong exposure, though  overexpose a lot and there will be no detail in the highlights, but B&W is pretty tolerant.

Colour negative is also tolerant to a degree, not as much as B&W but a lot better than slide film that really doesn't tolerate over exposure well at all.

I might have remembered this incorrectly but I think the advide for slide film was to considered underexposing by a third to half a stop.

However, that is not going to be easy if you are not using a meter. Perhaps you could use the meter in your digital camera for a while until you get the feel of judging the exposure for a scene.

Dave

I still use film for most of my photography, both 35mm and medium format. My Minolta Autocord 6x6 does not have a meter, but I use a Sekonic L308 hand-held meter.

As already mentioned, negative film is more forgiving than slide. Negative film is also more forgiving of overexposure, so erring on the side of caution and giving an extra stop if in doubt is not a bad idea. Ilford HP5 black and white negative film can easily take 2 or even three stops of overexposure, and maybe two under, and retain detail. Fomapan 400, also black and white negative, is less forgiving.

As you practice more, you will get better at judging light, but after 25 years of photography I still use a meter - in some circumstances my judgement is way out. Also remember, the sunny 16 rule is for 100ISO film.

I've shot quite a lot of film without a light meter using the sunny 16 rule (I had a meterless leica), it generally works with a couple of caveats. It only really applies during the summer months between 10am and 4pm. In the winter I found opening up two stops to work well. If you're shooting something in the shade then treat it as if it iscloudy. As someone else here said a little handheld meter can be useful. You don't have to use it for every photo and the more experience you get the less you need it. I wouldn't worry too much about the FM's meter as it's so old it's unlikely to be reliable. 

Colour print film is more forgiving than digital, black and white is more forgiving than colour print. Slide film is not very forgiving at all.

Overexposure: yes, it's the opposite to digital. Some say expose for the shadows, process for the highlights. If in doubt, bracket!

Black and white is much easier to deal with. The other benefit is it's easy to develop yourself and once you understand the process you can be more flexible and creative (eg pushing).

Just got myself a cheap but well-maintained Fed-3 for testing, but I am looking at a Leica M3. 

Most film comes in a small box, inside of which is the plastic tub containing the film. Also in the box is - usually - a small paper with suggestions for exposure of the film depending on light levels. That paper will help you out.

What others have said about latitude of different films is spot on.

You could also look into playing silly buggers with exposure and development times; I seem to remember that over exposing and under-developing let you shoot Tri-X by moonlight. Though a tripod is handy.

Film photography is such fun - have a great time rediscovering it all !

It's simpler to say shutter speed is the reciprocal of the film speed at f/16 on a sunny day. So 1/400 for ISO 400 etc.

A different view, feel free to down vote!

I just can't see the point of this, the meter will inform you and then you can change the settings creatively. In the darkroom you can also play with B&W film and that is admittedly fun. I have never done colour processing.

I so love the fantastic metering I have, with spot, central and matrix options and then exposure alterations with the exposure +/- and using 3-4 flashes and occasionally a mirror to get the lighting right. 

I had a FM2 from my wife's granddad, it was a great camera, now have a F100, but it sits largely abandoned for my digital SLRs.

As a general rule, which might be more useful - remember you cannot recover a blown highlight! When I was doing a lot of manual closeup work, I used to bracket 2 stops either side.

I run a drum scanning service and have scanned thousands of frames of all sorts of film. I also shoot large format film using a spot meter for accurate exposure. 

Contrary to received wisdom, modern colour negative film has more latitude than black and white film (I'm ignoring slide film here and the only exception being Ektar which is a bit weird)

I would highly recommend Portra 400 

The best thing about colour negative film is that you pretty much can't over expose it. So if you expose the shadows correctly then you'll be fine. 

I would recommend using Portra 400, rating it at 200 and using the sunny 16 rule (i.e. a stop over exposure to get the shadows exposed well)

Here's an example of a test I made using Portra 400 on large format film

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/dynamic-range-2.jpg

and an article I wrote about it.. 

https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/05/kodaks-new-portra-400-film/

Black and white films do have good dynamic range, especially those that use a multi layer technology. But Portra is better because it has three layers of film with different speeds to create that massive dynamic range. 

Another example... This is the biggest contrast range I could find.

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/portra-test.jpg

And yet the highlights were held perfectly and the shadows had lots of tonal range. 
 

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/richard-contrast-test-glencreran-c...

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/richard-contrast-test-glencreran-c...

There is little in this world quite as satisfying as the 'tik' of an early M series Leica shutter.  I went through a very similar sequence - a Zorki-1, then a Canonet, then an M3.  Then an Epson RD-1 (what an astonishing camera) and an M8.  Almost everything is digital now, but I do still get the M3 out once in a while.

Handholding a 35mm f/1.2 at 1/15th in candlelight with HP-5 pushed to 1200 was a lovely exercise.

Wow, some great advice here! Thanks, everyone! 

That's convenient! Portra 400 is what is filling up the egg holder of my fridge right now (to the annoyance of my wife )

So basically you are saying to always overexpose one stop? Sunny 11?

Just consider the film speed to be lower than 400 - that has the same effect.  So in bright sunlight you might think f/16 and about 1/200th... the closest speed you have is 1/250th... that'll do.

The other major advantage of Porta (I hadn't appreciated just how crazy a dynamic range it has, Tim) is that anyone handling C-41 colour film can process it for you.  Not too many places will develop b&w any more.  Of course, the answer to this is to start doing your own developing

Don’t think there’s a substitute for using a meter, whether in camera or handheld, but I remember when starting out (aged 10 or so) learning that a typical Scottish day (overcast) could be handled usually at 100ASA with f8 and 1/50th. Still find myself mentally referring back to that.

It is more to do with the modern films having three different speed layers stacked together. older colour neg films were probably similar to black and white film but black and white film was easier to recover the highlights in processing. C41 is really easy to develop at home too (although I'd always pre-wash, contrary to many instructions)

I've mislaid my M3 these last two years due to a house move. It's in a box somewhere! I used to love Delta 3200 wide open in the dark, and Adox in the light. A joy of a piece of engineering. One day I'll get a darkroom again... and find the bloody thing! 

I’ve still got Leica iiic and iiif but haven’t shot any film for years. I used to use HP5 which would push two or three stops and get nicely grainy. Tbh the piece of paper which comes in the film box tells you the basics, and the rest comes as second nature with practice. I was however always processing my own prints so would do the heavy lift in the darkroom. 
From what I remember Cartier Bresson was quoted as saying that he viewed light meters as just laziness for a professional photographer 😂

As mentioned, B&W is quite forgiving. I've shot a fair bit of Acros 100 without a meter when the battery in my Nikon EM went flat on a trip. 

Still have regrets about shifting my M6, but I found myself using it less and less as developing costs crept up.

This thread is making me want to shoot some film again though, might dig the EM out this weekend...

This might be useful

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/400750066835977949/

Sunny 16 is a very different thing in UK compared to Europe or further south, winter or summer sun etc etc. I wouldn't be counting on that.

Some films are forgiving but remember the roll of film is developed in one go. If half of your images are way over or under exposed when developing something has to give. You might not get back same amount of usable images as if all of the film was exposed during same conditions

Indeed! Here's some extra information

https://thewebdarkroom.co.uk/2019/10/05/sunny-16-is-not-always-correct/