Flashgun advice?

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 Graeme G 24 May 2021

Due to the current situation my daughter will unfortunately be graduating from home. So the pressure is on me to be the official photographer.

I've never used a proper flash before and am hoping the UKC collective might help with some thoughts.

I’ll be using an A6400. Reviews suggest the Godox 860, but that looks huge? Debating around a used Sony 42 from Ffordes? I don’t want to but the Sony 45 or 60 new as they just seem like complete overkill, and expensive.

Any advice, anyone? I think the main thing I need to know how is how high a guide number do I really need? I like Arthur Rs YouTube reviews and he suggests a Meike 320 ( guide between 20-32 apparently).

 John 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

First off, dont use a flash. I'd personally have a very noisy image, while using what light there is, over most uses of flash.

When i do use one its a Nissin I40 on Sony's. With the compensation -2 or -3 stops in camera and also -1 or -2 on the flash a little, so it cant been seen much. And preferably bounced off a wall to the side. I bring it as a just in case, but it stays in the bag.

If any fill is needed in day light i boost in post. Or would prefer a bounce.

Post edited at 12:01
OP Graeme G 24 May 2021
In reply to John:

Thanks, that’s helpful. Not really familiar with using one I’m not convinced it’s a worthwhile purchase. I had considered the i40. Our house isn’t particularly well laid out or lit for portrait photos, so trying to convince her she’s not going to get her professional quality mantelpiece photo is hard. She’s really disappointed so trying to do the best I can.

 John 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Ive always been a mirror-less shooter and therefore like to see how the shot will come out before i take it. Flash is guessing and therefore needs experience of use or a lot of trial and error. 

Ive see some amazing shots taken in what i though where poor spaces. Like using the light though just a gap in the curtains or from one spot light.

Not me...
https://image12.photobiz.com/6912/35_20170325075517_3837806_xlarge.jpg

 Dan Arkle 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

I got a cheap Yongnuo model. £ 60

They all seem pretty easy to use, - just bounce the light off the ceiling to get a soft effect. 

If used on full power it can take a few seconds to recharge.

If you are using it in the home then a very small guide number will be fine. 

 65 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Conversely, I would use a flash if the light was sub-optimal. You don’t need to spend lots on a native unit, 2nd hand Nissin or others will be fine. The key is to practice before the event, experiment with settings, diffusers, reflective surfaces, bouncing off the ceiling etc, until you know you can get the effects you want. Lots on the www and YouTube.

OP Graeme G 24 May 2021
In reply to Dan Arkle:

That’s my kind of advice, simple and to the point. Thanks.

 Durbs 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

I wouldn't assume you need one, but if you do, you might need two...

If you're shooting outside, a reflector will suffice in most situations unless you're looking for something particularly stylised. If you've not used one before, simply lifting shadows using a reflector is a really simple way to make a portrait notably better.

If you're adding one flash - you'll likely still need a reflector to bounce the light onto the non-flash side. I wouldn't bother outside unless it was really sunny, but might be useful inside.

Both of the above depend on you having a background which doesn't need lighting - so either something neutral like a hedge, or attractive wall, or a lack of background e.g. the ground drops away. As soon as you need to light the background, you're then looking at two flashes, and a remote to trigger them. 

Godox do some good, relatively affordable ones - but not worth it for a single shot. If however it's a good excuse to get them, go for it! 

The TT685s are big, especially on a 6400 but most of the time the flash won't be on the camera, it'll be on a tripod/flash-stand (more £££ to factor in).

OP Graeme G 24 May 2021
In reply to Durbs:

> The TT685s are big, especially on a 6400 but most of the time the flash won't be on the camera, it'll be on a tripod/flash-stand (more £££ to factor in).

Thanks. There’s a lot there I had researched. And then you start down the road of more and more £££. Which just seems excessive get Ben it’ll be pretty much a one off. Maybe I’ll just go with my fast lens (f1.4), shoot in RAW and hope I can get them to a standard acceptable to her.

 SouthernSteve 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Perhaps hire from someone like WEX rather than purchase. I wonder whether a semi-outside shot (under cover with lots of natural light and a suitable background), perhaps using a reflector to bring light into the face wouldn't not be easier. 

 Durbs 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Yeah, if it's just for this, I wouldn't bother - but definitely consider a reflector and try not to shoot in bright sun!

 dread-i 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

>Maybe I’ll just go with my fast lens (f1.4), shoot in RAW and hope I can get them to a standard acceptable to her.

If you've go the time to play, you could probably just use a couple of standard spot lights bounced off a wall. Camera on a tripod, big X on the floor, the onboard timer or remote shutter release and experiment, using yourself as the subject. Its not as if you have one 5 second window, when she's up on stage receiving her award, to get it right.

 jethro kiernan 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Cheap flash will do, try bouncing it of a wall/ceiling/large white card and then just check the exposure on the camera with a few test shots

alternatively go outside but in the shade and use a large white card to reflect some light on the subject ( the best place is somewhere out of direct sun but with some white walls in the general area that reflect light in, or portable gazebo)

more importantly choose some where without a distracting background wether outside or inside 

OP Graeme G 24 May 2021
In reply to dread-i:

> If you've go the time to play, you could probably just use a couple of standard spot lights bounced off a wall. Camera on a tripod, big X on the floor, the onboard timer or remote shutter release and experiment, using yourself as the subject. Its not as if you have one 5 second window, when she's up on stage receiving her award, to get it right.

Good idea.

When I say virtual, I meant completely virtual! We’ll all be huddled around a bloody laptop. Her included. Really disappointing, given how hard she’s worked to get here . But hey, it’s just a single day.

 Tom Last 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Flashes are powerful and amazing tools to use once you know how. I'm not sure I'd go for the option of noise over flash tbh, if used correctly, your image will be punchier and with far less noise - effectively sharper - with a flash.

I used Canon speedlights professionally for many years and destroyed many of them before deciding that they are overpriced crap essentially and switching to Godox. So whilst Canon isn't what you are looking at, Godox as a 3rd party option over your camera brand's models is probably a good option for you too.

Since it's an important occasion and since you're considering buying one, I'd go for it, but learn to use it beforehand and shoot manually and bounced rather than using the (evaluative) through the lens options. As others have said, you can bounce off a ceiling, wall etc, but bear in mind obstructions which will obscure the flash/create shadows and also bear in mind the colour of the walls/ceiling etc, which will create a colour cast in your image. A simple solution, which I've used in a fix, is to tape a sheet of white A4 paper to the back of the flash and bounce off that. Experimentation is key, so if you are going to use flash, then practice first.

Best of luck

 Tom Last 24 May 2021
In reply to Tom Last:

Remember too that, perhaps counter intuitively, if you are shooting outside of a sunny day, a flash may be even more essential than if you are shooting inside in even light. The proviso to all of this if course is that using flash well isn't particularly easy, but if you need one on the day and you actually have one, then so much the better. 

OP Graeme G 24 May 2021
In reply to Tom Last:

> Best of luck

Thanks. I tried bouncing the built in flash of the ceiling earlier and was actually quite impressed with the result. Although my other child didn’t like how the tone of her skin came out. But I’m thinking I’ll go for it, experiment a bit and see how I get on. Might also buy a backdrop to hang on the wall, they’re not that expensive.

OP Graeme G 24 May 2021
In reply to Tom Last:

PS Why manual? Most sites I’ve checked suggest getting one with TTL.

 Tom Last 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Your flash will be quicker to recycle on manual settings (an issue with bounced flash since the flash will be throwing out more power for these) and more versatile for simple and more advanced effects, or if you are trying to counter particularly tricky ambient lighting of some sort. Also, flashes just don't always meter very well - your eye is smarter than your camera! Though perhaps this is only relevant in the long term and given this is for a specific gig, then as you suggest you might just want to play it safe. If you start off using manual, you won't need to relearn it when you abandon the TTL though  

 Tom Last 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Sorry yes, do get one with TTL though, though they mostly will a come with that. 

 Tom Last 24 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

If you do use manual, then think of it as you would think of your three main camera settings in that you likely have a starting point or two which you work from when you head out normally with your camera.

So I dunno but say for example if you are shooting outside on a sunny day, then you or I might have something like a starting point of ISO 200, f8 and 180th second as a default manual setting on our camera right, which we then work around. Similarly, inside on a grey day we might be thinking about, ISO 3200, f3.5 and 60th second and again, working around that.

Well, with your flash the manual settings go down from full power in fractions, so full power is 1/1 then decreasing through 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and on and on all the way to 1/128. You decide where you want your starting point to be and just quickly power up or down from there. Unless you are shooting a subject against full sun, you are unlikely to want full power and unless you are looking for a very soft fill, you probably won't want 1/128 power, so a mid range starting point for manual flash wouldn't be a bad default to work from, around 1/8 or 1/16 power for example and then power up or down as required. Anyway, I am getting ahead of myself as I say, but it is a good tool, is quite fun and ultimately may well improve your results. 

Hope the graduation goes well by the way  

Post edited at 21:47
OP Graeme G 25 May 2021
In reply to Tom Last:

Thank you. That’s really helpful info. She’s particularly demanding so I’d better make a decent job of this, or I’ll never hear the end of it.

 Tom Last 25 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

No problem, good for her, I'm sure you'll do a great job  

 Blue Straggler 26 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

> Thank you. That’s really helpful info. She’s particularly demanding so I’d better make a decent job of this, or I’ll never hear the end of it.

Just a tangent, and not to put pressure on, but is there a specific "split second" moment that you need to capture? As another poster said, at a standard graduation they get about 5 seconds grinning and shaking hands with the Provost or whoever, and you pay probably £60 these days for the official photo. With the "at home" aspect, do you get to have loads of tries at getting it right or is there going to be a "real" instant where the remote ceremony specifically involves her and you have to get THAT moment? 

OP Graeme G 26 May 2021
In reply to Blue Straggler:

No specific moment, as we’ll all be at home. The photo I really need to get is more your standard studio pose eg

https://www.squire-squire.co.uk/family-portraits/graduation-photography

I’ll also want to get family photos with her, but the framed mantelpiece one is the main one.

 MisterPiggy 26 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

You've had some good advice from folks. May I add something, prompted by the mental image of everyone huddled round the laptop?

In addition to the one mantel piece photo, take a bunch that day before, during, after to document what is a rather special day - few generations of students will experience their graduation in this way. As anticlimactic as it may seem, it is an unusual event, and some good documentary photos (maybe in B+W) might engender warms feelings about the whole thing? Just a thought.

There are plenty of photographers out there who do/did fantastic work in very simple settings eg. Mary Ellen Mark, Eugene Richards, Eugene Smith... if you want some inspiration.

In any case, have fun with your daughter on her big day 😀

OP Graeme G 26 May 2021
In reply to MisterPiggy:

Thanks. Yeah was thinking of how unique this year has been and how in 20 years time she’ll look back at it. Might do a wee time lapse as well. 

 Blue Straggler 27 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Thanks for the reply. Was merely curious about the event, really! 

 Blue Straggler 27 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

Incidentally, and related to my question, if your daughter has some strong desire for the classic/standard studio pose one to have been taken at a time very close to the actual graduation, do bear in mind that even in "normal" times there may be a gap of several hours. Certainly this was the case for my M.Sc, where we had to continue poncing around in gowns after the ceremony, trying not  to spill buffet crumbs on them, until an allocated time slot in a different building, to pose for this photo! Takes the shine off feeling that it's "your moment". Of course unlike your daughter, we did get the slightly blurred "shaking hands with the Provost awkwardly" classic too...

Anyway might take the pressure off slightly (and of course you get multiple attempts).

Post edited at 13:21
OP Graeme G 27 May 2021
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Anyway might take the pressure off slightly (and of course you get multiple attempts).

Hoping that’ll be the case. With a bit of planning I’ll hopefully do a good enough job. We’ve identified a room with a big enough blank wall where the light is better later in the day. I’ve bought two 2nd hand Godox TT350s. Next purchase will possibly be a backdrop. So now just a bit of practice and hopefully all will be well. 

Removed User 27 May 2021
In reply to Graeme G:

I'm no photographer but I use a Yungnuo speedlite copy (580 I think?) about £60. It seems very well made and does the job admirably, just make sure you bounce the flash of a ceiling and stick with E-TTL mode for simplicity (you can adjust flash exposure compensation on the unit if need be).

Never use it directly onto the subject even with the diffuser plate down.

It takes rechargeable AAs and the turn around time is pretty short (good for shooting kids indoors).

Post edited at 14:14

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