Women's Forum

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 Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021

S ince the other thread has been archived I am putting forward the same suggestion but since some of the details seemed to be contentious I will leave those out altogether.

Post edited at 09:42
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 climbingpixie 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I'm not a fan of the idea. Firstly, I think it sidelines women and contributes to the idea that climbing (and UKC) is, by default, men's. Women may be a minority in the sport but we have just as much right as men to participate fully. Secondly, I bridle at the idea that women's issues are something that men can just choose to ignore by unticking a box, especially since an awful lot of the stuff we've talked about recently involves male behaviour or speech. Finally, I would prefer to be in an environment where I'm treated as an equal and I dislike the idea that I need a special area where I can avoid exposure to contrary arguments or differing perspectives. Others may disagree but I've (mostly) appreciated the input of men on recent threads, even when I disagree with them.

 Jon Stewart 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

If there were fewer women posting in the other forums because they felt it was friendlier and more enjoyable to just chat to each other, those other forums would suffer enormously. From a selfish perspective I don't like the idea.

OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

> Others may disagree but I've (mostly) appreciated the input of men on recent threads, even when I disagree with them.

Yes, it's noticeable that your responses haven't been along the lines of "Shut up and listen" but you seem to be in a minority.

The option of not listening is already in place by just moving on as soon as you detect a drift in the discussion or even read its title so unticking a box isn't all that different.

As to the whole idea of a women's forum on a website, I don't see it as being any different from having a women's climbing club in the world beyond the keyboard. 

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 Robert Durran 23 Mar 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

> Others may disagree but I've (mostly) appreciated the input of men on recent threads, even when I disagree with them.

Your appreciation has been appreciated by those of us attempting to engage in constructive discussion

If there were a demand from women for some sort of women's space then I don't see a problem with it as long as men (and women) felt free and comfortable to engage elsewhere.

Post edited at 10:57
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 SAF 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I'd be happy to see a women's health forum where we can discuss periods, pregnancy, menopause, post natal recovery, breastfeeding in relation to climbing, and possibly a women's for sale/wanted for women specific gear. But beyond that I agree with all that climbing pixie has said.

Post edited at 10:51
Removed User 23 Mar 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

Good and interesting points. Do you feel the same about Womens' Hour on R4?

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 65 23 Mar 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

We men can learn a lot about issues affecting women from actual women, and some of us want to. 

Post edited at 10:53
 climbingpixie 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Yes, it's noticeable that your responses haven't been along the lines of "Shut up and listen" but you seem to be in a minority.

To be clear, there were plenty of men on those threads that I did think would benefit from shutting up and listening but it's a discussion forum and people have got every right to join in. Same as I have every right to either disagree with them or, more usually, just ignore the more egregious tw*ts. But without draconian moderation there would be nothing to stop men chiming in on a thread in a women's forum anyway so I don't think it would solve anything, whilst also bringing a load of negatives that I mentioned above.

> As to the whole idea of a women's forum on a website, I don't see it as being any different from having a women's climbing club in the world beyond the keyboard. 

I do. In real life, we're geographically dispersed and the fact that men are in the majority means that women's only events don't tend to happen by chance. A club has the opportunity to facilitate that happening. And there are distinct benefits to all women gatherings that I don't think are the same for all women online spaces, especially ones where men are there anyway. It wouldn't be private enough for me to feel comfortable talking about something I'd only want to discuss with women. Not that I can think of anything anyway - I'm just as comfortable talking about my menstrual cup with men present as without!

 climbingpixie 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> If there were fewer women posting in the other forums because they felt it was friendlier and more enjoyable to just chat to each other, those other forums would suffer enormously. From a selfish perspective I don't like the idea.

And from my selfish perspective I don't want a space where it's just women. I'm a member of another forum where the user base is 98% female and it's different. Better in some ways (it's more respectful and less confrontational) but worse in others (fewer dissenting voices and much more of an echo chamber). I generally think conversations, like life, are better with more integration and an appreciation of our common humanity and identity as climbers, rather than by imposing barriers.

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 climbingpixie 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

I don't think it's analogous. Women's Hour covers a lot of issues that don't get raised as much in the media, especially a media in which older women are distinctly underrepresented. I see stuff like Women's Hour more like UKC having an article on something that only affects women, like the impact of periods on athletic performance for example.

 climbingpixie 23 Mar 2021
In reply to SAF:

See, I don't understand why we might need that but not a forum for men's health - e.g. prostrate exams or vasectomy recovery. To me, the issues you've listed above are all good and important topics that deserve their place on the main boards, rather than being considered niche interests.

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 john arran 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

> Good and interesting points. Do you feel the same about Womens' Hour on R4?

Your analogy is a poor one.

Women's Hour is one programme (cf. thread) on a general station (cf. forum), not a whole station purely for women's programming.

 SAF 23 Mar 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

> See, I don't understand why we might need that but not a forum for men's health - e.g. prostrate exams or vasectomy recovery. To me, the issues you've listed above are all good and important topics that deserve their place on the main boards, rather than being considered niche interests.

I think a men's health section would be good too, might encourage more discussion of important health issues that some men have a tendency to bury to their own detriment.

OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

>. But without draconian moderation there would be nothing to stop men chiming in on a thread in a women's forum anyway so I don't think it would solve anything, whilst also bringing a load of negatives that I mentioned above.

In the first version I mooted I proposed a tacit understanding that men would not contribute to the women's forum other than by listening. Obviously moderating this would be difficult, especially with the reluctance of users to appear under their own names. But in principle, I don't understand objections to that suggestion. 

It suits perfectly the "shut up and listen" philosophy .

One of the objections  seems to be to giving men the option of not participating in a woman's forum, which is pretty ironic.

Post edited at 11:38
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OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to 65:

Nothing at all to stop you learning about woman's issues from actual women in my suggestion: it's just that you can't chip in with any observations of your own.

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Roadrunner6 23 Mar 2021
In reply to 65:

> We men can learn a lot about issues affecting women from actual women, and some of us want to. 

We also have daughters/wives etc. As a father of two daughters and a coach of a girls sports team I'd often look at the posts just out of interest. Maybe I wouldn't if it was in a separate area.

 FionaJN 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I am not keen and agree with all the points made by women already on the subject (at the risk of sounding like an echo chamber )

I did not see any woman say 'shut up and listen' to all men on previous threads about women and safety. There were requests to listen, but women were welcoming discussions from men wanting to learn more/constructively engage with the topic. Rather than trying to shut women down.

There's a bit of an unwritten etiquette with women focused groups such as on Facebook. Men are welcome, and encouraged to engage, but also encouraged to focus more on understanding rather than rushing in with advice. That same culture would be good to develop on threads focusing on women's interests on here.

OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6: ( and others)

OK , suggestion formally withdrawn, as you were .

Back to "shut up and listen".

Post edited at 11:58
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Blanche DuBois 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Yes, it's noticeable that your responses haven't been along the lines of "Shut up and listen" but you seem to be in a minority.

The majority of women replying to your posts are in the "Shut up and listen" category?  You sure about that?  Read through this morning (with mounting disbelief and horror) the now locked "Peter Sutcliffe" thread, and didn't see anything like that.  Did see in another (male dominated) thread a single mild suggestion that perhaps men listening more would help.  Maybe you could post links collaborating that claim about the majority of responses being to "shut up"? 

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 Robert Durran 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Blanche DuBois:

The three most strongly worded posts in the thread closed this morning telling men to "shut up and just listen" actually came from men. The last and, I thought, offensively worded of these got removed last night (along with some posts from a really pointless idiot, so it may not have been reason for the moderation). The women just asking men to listen more were more reasonable than these men and "shut up" does not really reflect their tone.

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 Robert Durran 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> We also have daughters/wives etc. As a father of two daughters and a coach of a girls sports team I'd often look at the posts just out of interest. Maybe I wouldn't if it was in a separate area.

Maybe threads started by women in the main area with a prominent "women only" tag, with men found to have ignored it getting a ban.

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OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Blanche DuBois:

I didn't say it was the majority of women replying to my posts. I was referring only to the "Reclaim these peaks" thread. I was wrong about that, though, and I apologise. I can only count three women who belong in that school of thought. What is the basis of the Peter Sutcliffe thread ( if I am allowed to ask)

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 Blue Straggler 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> What is the basis of the Peter Sutcliffe thread ( if I am allowed to ask)


1. What do you mean by "what is the basis...?"

2. Why wouldn't you be allowed to ask?

3. The forums have a handy search function. https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/progress_since_peter_sutcliffe_...

Post edited at 12:55
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 65 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

It's a reasonable suggestion worthy of discussion, not that I am convinced. I'm not one of your dislikers BTW.

Roadrunner6: See Tom V's reply to me. 

OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Blue Straggler:

In wasn't sure what "locked" meant  and whether  a locked thread would be in the search system . Also whether discussion was allowed once it was locked. Probably confusing it with banned.

Edit: Thanks, I'd forgotten that TDB gave that title to the thread.

Not too successful with Search forums: I've just now typed in Lankyman's "The Frontman" as a topic search - no result. 

Type "The Frontman " in Text search, though, and the name of Blue Straggler comes up as author.........

Maybe it's different on your device.

Post edited at 13:14
 elliot.baker 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Normally my emotional intelligence spidey sense can understand why posts get dislikes but I don't understand for this one, could someone explain please so I understand better?

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 Robert Durran 23 Mar 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

> Normally my emotional intelligence spidey sense can understand why posts get dislikes but I don't understand for this one, could someone explain please so I understand better?

My first post? I was too scared to ask! One is treading on eggshells in these threads....

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 climbingpixie 23 Mar 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

Does it really matter? This is a thread about a women's forum, it would be nice for it not to get derailed by discussion on disagrees.

Post edited at 13:07
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 Blue Straggler 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

OK, thanks for clarification. Yes, locked threads can be discussed and searched for! Only deleted ones can't (unless you know how to use "The Internet Time Machine", which I've not delved into). Actually deleted threads can be discussed, there is no UKC rule against that. They only really discourage starting threads about banned users.

Post edited at 13:11
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In reply to Robert Durran:

> with men found to have ignored it getting a ban.

"I'm a lady. I talk about lady things."

Can you prove otherwise, "Robert"...?

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In reply to Tom Valentine:

I remembered the last call for a women's forum, in 2006...

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/women%27s_climbing_forum_at_ukc...

 DalesClimber 23 Mar 2021
In reply to SAF:

> I'd be happy to see a women's health forum where we can discuss periods, pregnancy, menopause, post natal recovery, breastfeeding in relation to climbing, and possibly a women's for sale/wanted for women specific gear. But beyond that I agree with all that climbing pixie has said.

I agree with this. The initial idea was proposed by a man whose partner didn't want to post a question about climbing in pregnancy because she expected to get hostile replies from male posters. That seems to be a perfect example of where a women's topic could work well.

However, it shouldn't be a moderator decision as to whether a topic is moved to the women's area. 

I also agree with what Climbingpixie said about the comparisons to women's hour, and the Pinnacle Club. Men are used to climbing in all-male groups; it's the norm. Women can usually only do it if they go out of their way to arrange something that's only for women. 

One thing that I sadly think would be almost inevitable is that there would always be that one man who interjects to tell all the women about why they're dealing with (e.g.) menstruation wrong. Not sure how you address that, as it's impossible to police.

Regarding the debate about people being told to "shut up and listen".... It can't have escaped general notice that that is what women get told on here all the time (metaphorically speaking). Even on the thread that was specifically asking for female perspectives, we had a male poster come and tell us why he thought our perspectives were wrong and why his perspective was more important. 

OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

Epic!

Wish I'd seen it earlier

 DalesClimber 23 Mar 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

> See, I don't understand why we might need that but not a forum for men's health - e.g. prostrate exams or vasectomy recovery. To me, the issues you've listed above are all good and important topics that deserve their place on the main boards, rather than being considered niche interests.

This is a very valid point.

I guess the question then, is how to ensure that women feel comfortable posting on UKC about women's issues, and the way to achieve that is for the culture of UKC to change. At the moment, it's not a particularly comfortable place for women climbers, but that's not something that has a quick fix.

I've had a fairly long hiatus from actively posting after getting sick of the attitude of many of the male posters. (The repeated use of the word "bleating" to refer to my posts about a women's issue, on a now deleted thread, was the final straw. Comparing women's speech on an important issue to an animal's noise is pretty bloody misogynist - Mary Beard has written excellently on this topic.)

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 climbingpixie 23 Mar 2021
In reply to DalesClimber:

> I guess the question then, is how to ensure that women feel comfortable posting on UKC about women's issues, and the way to achieve that is for the culture of UKC to change. At the moment, it's not a particularly comfortable place for women climbers, but that's not something that has a quick fix.

It's a weird one. I feel like women are less visible on UKC nowadays, whereas in the 'olden days' there were loads of prolific female posters. The forum has become less overtly sexist in many ways (who remembers that weird guy who used to ask random women if they'd shaved their muff?) but at the same time it feels more male-dominated. I dunno, it feels like an angrier place since 2016 and less friendly to everyone, not just women.

The other thing is that a lot of the female-specific topics that we've been discussing recently are contentious ones, where there's a clear potential for emotions to run high. I've certainly felt quite upset by some of the recent conversations and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Maybe we need a nice thread about mooncups or sports bras or something to calm things down...?

In reply to captain paranoia:

The old thread is worth reading (or re-reading for long-time members).

I think the 'Beginner's Forum' came out of the discussion.

The issue of dealing with aggressive and tedious posters still stands...

 Offwidth 23 Mar 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

Cheers...I must have been climbing in the wilds in the US as I missed that.  Is it just me or have the proportion of regular female voices declined here since back then? 

It was interesting how the thread progressed from a clear no to a maybe (via gingerkate) to maybe it's worth a go (from quite a few of the women). I think the latter still...worth a go... women only and covering anything that's climbing related.

On the subject of the beginners forum. Norrie was right in that epic thread about it needing care... still some occasional advice that's below best practice (by the less than fully clued-up but keen to help types) and too many aggressive and accusative replies.

Post edited at 14:58
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 birdie num num 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

All the forums are woman’s forums. Unless I’m missing something?

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 DalesClimber 23 Mar 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

> It's a weird one. I feel like women are less visible on UKC nowadays, whereas in the 'olden days' there were loads of prolific female posters. The forum has become less overtly sexist in many ways but at the same time it feels more male-dominated.

I'd agree with this.

> Maybe we need a nice thread about mooncups or sports bras or something to calm things down...?

Racer backs - yay or nay?

Is compression better than encapsulation for support?

Will someone ever invent a bra that pulls over the head and gives decent support, but doesn't require 15 minutes of wrestling and contortionism to put on or remove the bloody thing?

 Robert Durran 23 Mar 2021
In reply to DalesClimber:

> Regarding the debate about people being told to "shut up and listen".... It can't have escaped general notice that that is what women get told on here all the time (metaphorically speaking).

In what way does this differ from the normal cut and thrust of discussion: "I disagree with you and here is why". In what way is it gender specific? Genuine question and I'm listening......

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 climbingpixie 23 Mar 2021
In reply to DalesClimber:

It exists and it's called the Brooks Juno!! It's racerback but with a bra fastening at the bottom so it's easy to pull over your head but still easy to close for those of us with very inflexible shoulders. Supportive enough for running/MTB with 34DDs and relatively comfy too. Sadly it's just been discontinued but there are still some kicking around online, though not if you're the same bra size as me.

Post edited at 15:08
OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to birdie num num:

I threw the towel in about 3 hours ago. Any comments I've made since are meant to be uncontroversially peripheral

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OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

 TobyA 23 Mar 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> I remembered the last call for a women's forum, in 2006...

That's a trip down memory lane! Although I wondered how I avoided being on a UKC thread that long - I've just checked my UKC logbook and it seems that was when I was up in Northern Norway climbing which I think is a valid excuse.

 DalesClimber 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

It's a good question and probably worthy of its own thread. It's a question of the general dynamic, and you have to take into consideration the different social conditioning of women and men.

It's similar to the ways in which women in a meeting at work might be 'told' to shut up and listen - it's never/rarely explicit, but women are talked over and their points ignored until a man makes the same point. Their points might be dismissed as irrelevant, anecdotal / subjective / emotional, when a man making the same point would not get that response. I've already referred to women's speech being described as "bleating" - I haven't seen that recently, but it's another way in which women are metaphorically told to shut up. Men will "play devils advocate" about women's experiences, as if they are discussing an abstract academic concept, in a way that will trigger emotional upset and cause some women to simply walk away from the discussion. Or the conversation will just be derailed so that discussion stops.

As an example, if you read that Peter Sutcliffe thread, what do you see? It's an issue where female perspectives and experiences would be particularly relevant and useful, but to what extent is that reflected in the flow and direction of the discussion? Do you see how certain male posters actively derail the thread, effectively preventing any useful discussion? The thread ends up revolving around the posts of certain disruptive men. Do you see the women being told that their experiences and perspectives are irrelevant? (e.g. 'I’d suggest maybe you’ve been reading too much news about violence. As I said the news frightens women').

The techniques are a lot more subtle than "shut up", but the effect is the same. It's not a majority of posters, but over time it has a big impact on the overall feel of the forum (which is quite macho - more so than 10 years ago I think). Many women just end up choosing not to participate in discussions that they find unproductive and frustrating, and who can blame them?

It's a subject that's worthy of more time than I'm able to give it today unfortunately.

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 DalesClimber 23 Mar 2021

I also gave another example upthread - on a thread that was specifically about women's perspectives, we had a man cone and tell us all why we were wrong. 

He didn't explicitly say "shut up and listen to me", but he didn't have to.

In reply to captain paranoia:

> "I'm a lady. I talk about lady things."

My point was that we don't register our sex in our profiles. How are 'men' going to be identified as 'men' so they can be banned?

As I said in 2006, and is still applicable now; if there is a problem with general attitude in the forum that is putting people (including women) off posting, then address that attitude. That was an issue to be addressed by moderation in 2006, and it's still an issue that should be addressed by moderation.

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 climbingpixie 23 Mar 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

I'm not sure how far moderation can help the tone and feel of a forum. It's fine for stuff like people being abusive or spamming or whatever but I don't really think it's the job of moderators to police user interaction. But as a community there's stuff we can do, like calling out people being rude, choosing not to engage with people being deliberately provocative or trying a bit harder not to derail threads. It would be greatly helped by an 'Ignore User' option, allowing people to simply hide stuff from posters they find objectionable. Responding to shitposters just encourages them and I like the idea of someone angrily typing into the void, unaware that people can't even see their nonsense!

 Jenny C 23 Mar 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> My point was that we don't register our sex in our profiles. 

Very true and given that an internet forum is generally anonymous it is actually a perfect place for gender equality. Nobody knows your sex, gender identity, race or religion unless you choose you share it.

I admit I will talk about female issues on here that I would be reluctant to share in a male dominated face2face environment. But surely that's as a good thing, most blokes on here have wives, girlfriends, daughters or sisters, so hearing an honest women's perspective on issues that are normally kept private may help them to understand and support the women in their lives.

In reply to climbingpixie:

> I'm not sure how far moderation can help the tone and feel of a forum.

Moderation can set the tone. It takes effort, but I've seen other forums do it. Some forums that don't allow any talk of politics, for instance...

In reply to climbingpixie:

> But as a community there's stuff we can do, like calling out people being rude, choosing not to engage with people being deliberately provocative or trying a bit harder not to derail threads. It would be greatly helped by an 'Ignore User' option, allowing people to simply hide stuff from posters they find objectionable. Responding to shitposters just encourages them and I like the idea of someone angrily typing into the void, unaware that people can't even see their nonsense!

I agree with all that. I've suggested both 'ad hoc' ignoring people, and an 'Ignore User' button... I have suggested the idea that Twitter let Trump post, only not show anyone his posts...

In reply to Jenny C:

> so hearing an honest women's perspective on issues that are normally kept private may help them to understand and support the women in their lives.

Everybody benefits from that sort of discussion. And a forum is sufficiently impersonal that embarrassment can be reduced, I think.

For me,  UKC is a fantastic resource as a Climbers forum.  We are all climbers and I don't see the need to adopt identity politics to seek ways to split us down into different groups.  Once you start, why stop at gender, what about all the other possibilities and that's before considering Intersectionality and all the sub combinations that generates.

There are some examples above of stereotypical women's topics but hiding then away doesn't feel productive.

We are all climbers and are all individuals with a whole host of personalities,  traits and motivations. Above all we should respect each other as much online as we would if we bumped into each other at the crag. 


 

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 Offwidth 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Sandstone Stickman:

For me, UKC is a fantastic resource as a Climbers forum.  We are all climbers and although I don't generally see the need to adopt identity politics to seek ways to split us down into different groups, womens only groups in climbing have been useful in the recent past to improve specific aspects of participation.  There are issues beyond gender on the site, it is way too dominated by white older men.

We are all climbers and are all individuals with a whole host of personalities,  traits and motivations. Above all we should respect each other as much online as we would if we bumped into each other at the crag. I look forward to a time when all those people who seem to be avoiding the site, compared to those we meet indoors and at the crag, can feel it represents us all in that way.

Post edited at 18:45
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In reply to Offwidth:

"There are issues beyond gender on the site, it is way too dominated by white older men."

There are other ways to promote engagement e.g. there have been a number of excellent articles recently focusing on female specific features. 

The gender pay gap highlights similar observations that predominately senior management positions are filled by older men.  The challenge is to ensure that there are no barriers to prevent anyone from different demographics from applying and that everyone has equality of opportunity.  It will take years before we see a change here as you can't just fire all the in situ older white men.  But I'm confident we will see an increase in diversity over time.

What are the blockers here that might prevent women from posting? Is it a lack of respect from the dominant group already in situ or something else? Either way,  I don't think segregation is the answer.

Post edited at 19:30
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 Offwidth 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Sandstone Stickman:

The articles and the rest of the site and the attitudes of the owners and employees have been excellent and steadily generating improvements for many years.  In that time things have if anything got a little worse in diversity input on the forums (read that old thread and the female posts from regulars...read the womens opinion thread the other day and roughly the same numbers are here but not posting as much in general).

It's worth a try in my opinion. A single gender focus acheived it's aims for the womens' trad fest, the womens' climbing symposium, the women in adventure films festival, and in  numerous women only training events. Those women didn't disengage with men afterwards but participation in key areas did improve.

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In reply to Offwidth:

Fair enough,  I'll have a read back through.

From what you're describing though it a depressing situation. I wonder what parallels there are with society in general compared to our subsection of climbers. I just see a constant stream in the media focused on creating division and people losing their ability to have a reasoned debate or discussion. If there are issues on the forum (I'm clearly out of touch) we need to focus on ways to address that to be more inclusive across the board.

 Offwidth 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Sandstone Stickman:

I know how hard it is to close the gender pay gap. I worked at Universities alongside women who seemed as bright, hard working and as successful in their output as the men and yet there were big pay gaps everywhere. At the University of Leicester a few years back the gender pay gap for academic staff was a jaw dropping  £16k on average.

The gender pay gap was still large in Unis when you looked only at women who hadn't taken maternity breaks. It all feels like turning an oil tanker with an oar.

The difference with climbing initiatives on gender issues is they seem to have made real progress. More women trad climbers, more high performers, more training successes, many more excellent filmmakers.

Post edited at 20:09
 jassaelle 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

what about just a forum that's a space for people that are underpresented in the climbing world, women, non-binary, adaptive climbers, ethnic and cultural minorities - so they can have a safe space where they know they are more likely to meet and hear from others that they can relate to? it sounds very PC yeah yeah yeah... And I can see others point about believing a forum should be all inclusive and not divided up into different identities etc, but I think it should be put to climbers who are underrepresented whether that'd be helpful or not. Maybe they feel comfortable acessing UKC and don't feel a division or a need for a separate section but we can't say 'this forum is for everyone, it's so inclusive already' without actually asking those groups if they feel included first ? ya dig?

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OP Tom Valentine 23 Mar 2021
In reply to jassaelle:

I feel ya, bro, but I read the room and took an early bath about six hours ago. 

 mondite 23 Mar 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

>  I have suggested the idea that Twitter let Trump post, only not show anyone his posts...

aka shadow banning. You either have to show it to anyone who isnt logged in though or risk them spotting it when not logged in when they get supicious about not getting replies.

I read about one forum which took the approach of shadow banning people apart from to other people who were also shadow banned. So they would get responses and have nice arguments whilst leaving everyone else in peace. I assume there was the option to toggle viewing of their posts on if anyone else wanted a laugh.

 Wicamoi 23 Mar 2021
In reply to DalesClimber:

Thanks for your excellent posts on this and other recent threads. This forum is like a middle-aged man sitting alone in a big empty house. His life is in a downward spiral. He's drinking heavily and beginning to loathe himself. He really needs his wife and children to give him one more chance and come home.

Not sure he deserves it though.

In reply to mondite:

> I read about one forum which took the approach of shadow banning people apart from to other people who were also shadow banned

I have a vague recollection Outdoors Magic did that.

 Robert Durran 23 Mar 2021
In reply to DalesClimber:

> It's a good question and probably worthy of its own thread. It's a question of the general dynamic, and you have to take into consideration the different social conditioning of women and men.

Thanks for your detailed reply. Do you think that many men are consciously responsible for the behaviours you describe, setting out to upset women or are they just caught up in the dynamic?  How much of it is due to the larger number of male posters creating the general dynamic (this would tend to be self-perpetuating if it puts off more women). It would actually be useful to have such behaviours pointed out because I suspect that many of us simply do not notice them.

1
Andy Gamisou 24 Mar 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> It would actually be useful to have such behaviours pointed out because I suspect that many of us simply do not notice them.

Sounds nice in theory - but pretty sure that when such behaviour happens and is pointed out then what results is a (one-sided) argument about how the perpetrator didn't exhibit such behaviour.  

Andy Gamisou 24 Mar 2021
In reply to SAF an UKC:

> I'd be happy to see a women's health forum where we can discuss periods, pregnancy, menopause, post natal recovery, breastfeeding in relation to climbing, and possibly a women's for sale/wanted for women specific gear. But beyond that I agree with all that climbing pixie has said.

My wife (who belongs the set of women who wouldn't feel comfortable posting here) would love to see an article on climbing and the menopause, should UKC fancy pursuing this...

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> My wife (who belongs the set of women who wouldn't feel comfortable posting here) would love to see an article on climbing and the menopause, should UKC fancy pursuing this...

Having just spoken to Natalie it sounds like there's something in the pipeline, so watch this space...

 Rob Exile Ward 24 Mar 2021
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

The forum that is obviously missing is one for the over 60s. No one wants to listen to us anyway.

 GrahamD 24 Mar 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> The forum that is obviously missing is one for the over 60s. No one wants to listen to us anyway.

Pardon, sorry, speak up.

 Offwidth 25 Mar 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I hate to break this to you Rob but this is an online retirement home for old climbers. The young posters are the staff


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