UKH

Morning UKC legal experts.

As a partnership, my wife and I are now into our 'middle age' period. We have the family home, a small pension pot, some other small investments and a few minor assets you'd find in a family. Nothing spectacular but if we jointly copped it we would want it spread equally amongst the 3 girl nippers of whom two are adult age and one a teenager.

I had a quote yesterday for a professional will and was aghast at the 2k proposed. Is this normal?

In short, we would want a simple direction that the assets are split equally either by estimated value or proceeds of sale/liquidation. Secondly,  to ensure that the small inheritance each receives cannot be coerced or appropriated by the possibility of a future unseen manipulative relationship. 

Having not written a will, is it not a simple case of listing demands, sign in front of solicitor/TP, then holding a copy at the bank with copies held by trusted third parties. Are there not downloadable examples online?

Cheers

Try Fairwill, they did probate on our mother's estate for a fixed fee and were excellent. 

Not sure if you can safeguard inheritance against partner coercion however.

For something very simple you don't need a solicitor, there are many online will writing services that are very cheap. Answer some questions, print it out, have it witnessed and signed.

Having said that, what you've described above is what you would like to happen once your both dead, you also need to consider, and document in the will, what to do if just one of you dies.

I went to a local lawyer and they did it for 150 quid (about 4 years ago). If I were you and I am not, I would phone around a few local lawyers and get quotes. Good luck 

That sounds a lot to me, for what appear to be straightforward wills. Have you googled for how much to write a will in your area?

Agree with Pedro about safeguarding an inheritance against a manipulative relationship.

Without giving someone something like power of attorney over each of your daughters I can't see how it could be achieved, and I'm not sure if PoA would be applicable as I think it is used when someone is incapable of administering their own affairs.

Dave

That sounds an awful lot of money for a fairly simple will.  

Mr S and I (similar ages and situation to yourself) had ours done a few years back, can’t remember the actual cost but around £400 springs to mind.

Way to much.

As long as you have two independent witnesses (name, address, occupation) the probate office will try to support whatever you write down. The online forms are fine. Money saving expert used to have good links

......and then there's poa to consider.

I did mine for a similar simple will a few years ago.

Wasn't hard using the online templates.

That seems a lot - too much.  But...

Having done a will recently, I would recommend talking to a solicitor rather than the DIY route.  There are quite a few non-obvious things to consider.  For example, what happens if beneficiaries have died before you, or in quick succession after you?  If the house is high-value, it may be better from an IHT point of view to explicitly state it is being passed on to children than simply saying 33% each. Do you have life insurance and what happens to it?

I would write out a load of info but as ever Martin has already done it:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/free-cheap-wills/

We got ours done during will week a few years ago - so cost was a donation to charity. I notice not many of these provide services for under 55's anymore and don't know your age so ymmv.

Definitely worth checking insurance policies, memberships, Union memberships etc as often discounted services are part of these. 

£2K certainly sounds a lot. I did similar recently with a non-complicated family side, but more complex on the business side will, and it was £400.

Alan

We've just completed a will, so the process is quite fresh. If you can wait until September you can use the Will Aid scheme. You pay one of the approved solicitors, but the money goes to help needy people, rather than into their pocket.

Some points to consider. You and Mrs DB own your house. You pop your clogs, she gets the house. She remarries and then pops her clogs. Your kids get nothing. The house and all her possessions go to the new spouse. Or you pop you clogs but one child is in a dubious place. Problems with drink, drugs might be made worse with lots of ready cash on hand. If you have some assets that may fall under IHT, how do you structure them so your beneficiaries get the most from them, rather than the tax man. What if the family is all killed in a plane crash, who are the next tier of people who get your assets?

Then there are things like, who gets grannies jewellery? What about that sentimental thing that was handed down, that has no real value, but is still a family treasure?

There is an awful lot to consider. Filling out a standard form on the interwebs, may save you a few quid, but set up generations of arguing after you are gone. Even things like fees for the executors; you wouldn't want to get a cheap will, but pay 5%+ to some sleazy outfit, when you could pay a few hundred.

There is no official national will registry. You could die, having sorted out all the above, but if people cant find the doc, then it is no good. The Wil Aid scheme provides will registration via a company you would need to pay separately for.

There is a lot to think about. Go through the online stuff. Make the decisions first, but get a grown up to help with the tricky bits. Its a false economy, if it doesnt convey your wishes, or causes undue pain and strife.

NB: You are not allowed to have clauses like someone must marry or run a marathon dressed as a horse before they inherit. Viking funerals and sky burials are strongly discouraged, even in the Pennines.

Hmm. Does passing on to kids avoid IHT? Also, I hadnt considered that I also have death in service so this would need to be factored in.

I agree. When my wife and I wanted to prepare our wills, our solicitor picked a few holes in what we thought were simple arrangements and provided useful solutions. The DIY route may be sufficient if there are no complications, but life and death is not always predictable. Our wills cost about £200 each, so your original quote seems some way over the top. 

£2000 sounds extortionate for two simple wills, my wife and I did ours 2 years ago using a solicitor and it was about £200 each. As for coercion through a future manipulative relationship - this was something that had concerned us, and it seems that it is difficult to cater for without creating complex trusts which are likely to be so restrictive that they tie the hands of the survivor so much that it removes their freedom. It's better to just trust your spouse to be sensible and honest to your joint wishes because life goes on and circumstances will change.

The expensive exercise is, as someone has mentioned, POAs, but they could be a very sensible virtually essential necessity. You will each need to draw up two each - one for financial matters, and one for health, so yo are talking about a lot more expense for them. 

There is a one-off charge of £20 to deposit a will or its codicil, payable by cheque or postal order to HM Courts and Tribunals Service.  If you need to store both the will and its codicil, make sure you include them together in one envelope. That way you won’t be charged separately for each item.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/store-a-will-with-the-probate-se...

British Heart Foundation and possibly other charities offer a free will writing service, but in the hope that they will get a donation.

My wife and I are have just gone through the same....fairly straight forward wills, nothing too fancy required, we used a company called Purely Probate and cost was around GBP 600......

 Up to a point.  I forget the details but you get a greater allowance for a family home passed to children - worth checking.

A few extra points.

Last time I asked, the solicitor suggested I do my own LPAs online for about £100 a pop. There's some legal stuff to wade through, so you may choose to go via a solicitor; she quoted £750 per LPA, which is likely to be on the expensive side.

Re wills, try to work out what you need in as simple a way as possible. If it's very simple, get it correctly witnessed and give a copy to the named executors or the bank. Otherwise, let a solicitor sort out the wrinkles.

Note that once you are dead, the only control you have over what happens is in your will! So if you're worried about second marriages etc, try to leave your beneficiaries what you want to give them.

Many people have most of their wealth tied up in their home, and if that creates issues, the solicitor will be able to advise the best way to deal with that if (for example) you want some of it to go to your kids after your wife dies or remarries.

I think I did mine for about £250 via the expensive solicitor above.

My mum and dad set their wills up so that anything she owned came to my brother and myself rather than to my dad and anything he owned came to us rather than her.

She still lives in the house but only owns 50% of it and my brother and me own 25% each. When she goes her 50% is below the tax threshold. This was set up in 2006 when he died so things might have changed by now. I have no doubt we will find out when she passes but at 76 years old teaching aqua aerobics and line dancing a couple of times a week that day will probably be a long way off.

Our wills by the way were £150 each about 10 years ago, if I pop Sara gets everything, if she pops I get it, when we both go it's split 50/50 between our niece and my best mates lad with the exception of the 25% of my mums house, if we both go before her my share of the family home goes to my brother. 

10 years ago we paid £100 each for our wills, which were basically 'mirror' wills so the same for each, using a local solicitor through Will Aid.

My recommendation is to have a very straightforward will - everything is split between our children when we are both dead, or to each other if one of us dies, and my sister has some separate instructions as Executor. Then I have left informal instructions to my sister to say what happens to my Granny's jewellery, where the dog should go, allowances for my godchildren and so on. I can change these whenever I want to, because it is just a letter between the two of us.

However this 'future unseen manipulative relationship' point is complex. Not sure how you manage that without upsetting their current partners.

Did ours with co op will writing services, its a mixture of online and a  home visit ours was a phone call due to COVID they gave sone good advice and very professional at £250 for a joint will, but we upgraded to a trust will so £320 total.

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/making-a-will/

Superb responses everyone. I will take great pleasure in advising my IFA, who recommended this firm, to tell them politely to go play in the traffic.

2K is perfectly normal, may even be cheap if you have complex assets in multiple jurisdictions, private jets and the like.

For the rest of us... that is not just a bit too expensive, it is INSANE!

Definitely you should get help from and not just fill out a will kit from WHSmiths. The Mrs and I got a will done when we had out (first) kid. The advice was really useful and stuff I hadn't thought about.

Unfortunately.. I've seen that there's little as good as a disputed will (or intestate) to cause bad feeling, disputes amongst family members - and a **** situation where nobody gains anything (except the solicitors). So don't procrastinate 

As above - £250 each for us.  SWMBO may of course have gone back and written another one in which I no longer feature, with an additional £50 fee for use of the DELETE key on the computer

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

POA can be done online through the Government website very cheaply.  Law firms bundling this basic process up and charging a fortune boils my piss.

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

It costs £82 and not a penny more.  The process is trivial.  It is something *everyone* should do.

If you're in a union, they often have a free will service if you're not too complicated a case. And make sure any legal person doesn't write themselves in as executor.

Who is it that you hate in your life that you are leaving the UKC forums to?

So I spoke to my IFA last night and referenced my 'research' and that £2k was a bit steep. He clarified that my circumstances were straightforward and a few hundred quid would be about right. He said the 2k was to have the monies held in trust to ensure that no dodgy claims or bad marriage splits can get near it after my death, including if my wife remarried a dodgy 'un. 

I asked if this was normal and he said that protecting assets after death was increasing,  only to ensure that the left behind cant be taken advantage of.

Makes sense I guess. I wont be taking it though.

For a couple each doing both Financial and, Health and Welfare POA it's actually £82x2x2 = £328

Of course you can DIY, but It's also very fiddly for a lay person to follow the correct process, and sequence of signing etc. Easy to make a mistake, particularly when you've never done it before, get this wrong, even just a little bit, and you can nullify it. Our legal fees for each POA where £100 plus VAT per POA  which frankly seemed reasonable given the importance of getting it right. Get it wrong and we might as well not have bothered,

A few points to add and some thoughts of my own

• Your pension (probably) falls outside your estate and is not covered by your will and is outside IHT.  Make sure you've done a "letter of wishes" for your pension, if applicable.
• What you seem to be wanting is not a simple will (e.g. a simple will might to similar to "I leave everything to my wife and children equally"): you are wanting to cover the possibility of future relationship breakdowns etc,and this may involve a trust or similar.  If you want to exclude a close relative (on whatever grounds), you should document the reasons why very clearly in an accompanying letter to explain in the event of a challenge later.  These days, trusts are quite complex, possibly require lots of admin and paperwork and fees and tax, and are a nice earner for the legal and accountancy profession (and not many others).
• The off-the-peg will forms can be useful if you have simple requirements.  If you want anything more than a simple bequest, the off-the-peg forms can be a solicitor's goldmine in contested bequests, confusion and legal fees later on.
• POA and Wills are separate items, but often done at the same time.  You can do POA yourself online, but if you have anything that is non standard, you might want to get a solicitor to help (as any errors later could be a PITA).
• Be aware that charities can be (allegedly) quite aggressive in chasing up their bequests when the time comes.
• Find a couple of trusted friends or relatives to be executors.  You don't need to appoint a professional to be an executor, the trusted friends/relatives as exors can buy in the professional advice that they might need.  A sensible person with a bit of time and common sense can do a lot of the basic leg work.
• dread-i suggest there is no national will registry.  I beg to differ: you can store a will with the probate service HM Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS)  see e.g. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/wills-and-probate/content/103432
• If you think you may need to consider IHT (and also the Residential nil rate band), you might want to think about getting professional advice to save lots of hassle and tax for your exors and heirs.
• Try and keep things as simple as you can.  Leave good documentation behind for your exors to find your assets (bank accounts etc), and consider what to do about things like passwords and online accounts (see e.g. https://imgur.com/23P5XyE, an article from Which? magazine on leaving digital assets)

IANAL, but have been exor three times.