Why are vans so expensive?

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 abr1966 14 Jul 2020

Been looking for a van for a basic conversion....I'll be using it as a main vehicle too. I was hoping to get something with low miles but the cost!!?

I could seriously buy a really nice car full of gadgets/high spec for the same price as a pretty well used van!

How come they are so high value still....is it just market forces and demand??

1
 elliot.baker 14 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

I've wondered this recently, I have no idea but I wondered if it's partly down to that the engines seem to be fine doing 200k+ miles which seems more than you plan to get from the average car, that plus there is simply more metal in them and metal costs money.

2
 Tigger 14 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

Maybe something to do with the fact that every wants them for conversions?

 colinakmc 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Tigger:

-or more likely since most vans are used for work, the cost can be set against your tax so you’re paying for your van with smaller pounds than the ones I’m left with from the PAYE system.

 jimtitt 14 Jul 2020
In reply to colinakmc:

Or more likely if the VAT was claimed on the vehicle originally when it is resold VAT at 20% is charged on the sale value, second hand cars it's only charged on the margin (trade sales) or not charged for private/not claimed sales.

 peppermill 14 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

I'm assuming business use and demand for the #vanlife bull puckey.

Honestly couldn't believe it when webuyanycar.com gave me similar money to what I could sell my van for privately on gumtree or whatever.

 two_tapirs 14 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

For converted vans, they're always more expensive outside of winter months as people start to consider summer plans and decide to buy for that, so the price goes up.  No idea if there's a similar trend with ordinary vans

 Ciro 14 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

A large part of a car's value is in its age/prestige/etc., whereas the value in a van is a bit more closely tied to the work it will do and the cost of running it. If you're not in the market for a brand new van, then there's not so much difference between the usefulness of say a 3 year old van with 60k on the clock and a 5 year old van with 80k. One will last a little bit longer than the other, so it'll be a little bit more expensive.

In addition engines and gearboxes should do pretty high mileage, and will probably outlast the van. So the depreciation due to mileage is much less. Basically, if the van is looked after and hasn't rusted it will hold it's value as it should go twice round the clock of you continue to service it.

 Dax H 14 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

Supply and demand will factor in. There are a lot more cars on the road than vans. 

 peppermill 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Ciro:

> In addition engines and gearboxes should do pretty high mileage, and will probably outlast the van. So the depreciation due to mileage is much less. Basically, if the van is looked after and hasn't rusted it will hold it's value as it should go twice round the clock of you continue to service it.

Yup. As I've said before on another thread, a lot of vans are like Land Rovers, always broken in some way or another but never actually break down.

Rust is another matter especially on Fords. Once it starts they seemingly become soluble.

 peppermill 15 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

I forgot to add-

Factor in insurance/tax, especially for a basic conversion that won't qualify to be re registered as a campervan.

One of the main reasons I got rid of mine was that it was just becoming obscene despite a clean licence for the thirteen years I've had it and 10+ years NCB. Fewer and fewer companies were interested in insuring a basic DIY conversion. The replacement car has basically the same engine and insurance and tax is about half what I was paying for the van. Bonkers.

Plenty of people just don't bother telling their insurance companies and stump up for bog standard van insurance justifying it by saying you don't *Have* to re register it. 

Not really up for arguing that one if the Sh*t hit the fan.

 pec 15 Jul 2020
In reply to elliot.baker:

> I wondered if it's partly down to that the engines seem to be fine doing 200k+ miles which seems more than you plan to get from the average car, 

The engines used in vans are the same ones used in cars. My last 2 cars both did over 250,000 miles and the engines were still going strong when I sold them. The engines used in these cars (Peugeot 405 and 406) were used in many Peugeot, Citroen and Fiat vans.

 Red Rover 15 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

Another option is to buy an estate car, take out the back seats and put some plywood and a matress in the back. It's not really like having a van but they are surprisingly spacious and much much cheaper than converting a van, and easier to insure and park. You'd be fed up of it during a European road trip but for weekends it's good.

 Paul Sagar 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

Same principle, one step up: get a Renault Kangoo or Citroen Berlingo or the like, and either buy a conversion kit from the people that make them, or get a wheelchair converted vehicle and put 4 big idea boxes in the back, a piece of plywood on top of that, and a futon mattress on top of that. Bingo. I've had that for the past 2.5 years and it works fine. I do dream of upgrading to a 'proper' van one day, but that's going to require money I don't yet have.

 Red Rover 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I agree. I think van conversions are almost always a mistake. They are just a huge money sink! Everyone I know who has got one is wishing they hadn't. They are an especially bad idea when people just use them for weekend trips. Really not worth the money for that, it would be cheaper to stay in nice hotels! Or if that isn't convenient just sleep in an estate car. I think vans only pay off if you're planning on doing a several month road trip. Less than that and is it really worth the massive cost to avoid the faff of putting a tent up?

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 Alkis 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

What sort of costs are you thinking about? Because every time I read this sort of thing it makes me wonder. My fully converted van cost me about the same as my previous second hand car. I'd agree if you're thinking 15 grand, but not if we're talking 7-8 grand.

Plus, you really are underestimating the quality of life advantage over a tent, especially in the wetland that is Britain..

Edit: On a more personal level, it just so happened that my housing situation got a bit chaotic, with a house purchase taking forever and the house then requiring far more work than was originally obvious, and it has basically saved the day, but that is obviously rather special circumstances.

Post edited at 11:49
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 Alkis 15 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

I can only offer an anecdotal reason:

My van has done ~210,000 miles and its latest service showed zero mechanical problems with the engine, gearbox and clutch, only needing the brakes done which is pretty standard. I can't imagine the Ford Focus it replaced lasting that long.

1
 Red Rover 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Alkis:

Well the insurance is a killer. And £7-8k for something to be a used a few weekends a year (a figure based on how often my van-friends use them) sees quite a lot, you could stay in 5 star hotels for that. I actually have a hatchback that I took the rear seats out of and put a double air mattress in the back. It would be crap for a road trip but it;s great for weekends and I can still use it as a car for normal life.

1
 elliot.baker 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Alkis:

Even £15k seems on the low end. If you look on the internet some converted vans that are 5-10 years old are £30k, new ones can be £60k+ which blows my mind! Only the most prestigious 10 year old cars would be anything like that cost. And if you look at a Transporter say thats up to 10 years old it might be best part of 12k, then add conversion could easily be another 10-15k - it's a lot of money but they seem to hold their value.

I thought it could be nice if you had kids to go to Cornwall or Wales or something for say 3 weeks in a campervan, then if you did that several years running, as well as doing weekend trips here and there, AND you used it as a second car when needed, then it starts to look economical.

But then I don't know what three weeks in a van with 2+ kids would be like (I'm thinking of a big awning / tent thing as well), and comparing the cost to say 2 weeks on a holiday abroad. I imagine you'd make good memories.

 Red Rover 15 Jul 2020
In reply to elliot.baker:

It's very hard to make a van more economical than a nice hotel.

1
 Alkis 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

> Well the insurance is a killer. And £7-8k for something to be a used a few weekends a year (a figure based on how often my van-friends use them) sees quite a lot, you could stay in 5 star hotels for that. I actually have a hatchback that I took the rear seats out of and put a double air mattress in the back. It would be crap for a road trip but it;s great for weekends and I can still use it as a car for normal life.

Insurance shouldn't be a killer, my insurance is about double what it was for my car but still not particularly expensive. certainly not a killer, but it is my only vehicle so it does have my 9yr NCB on it, with proper campervan insurance. The van's fuel efficiency is actually better than the car it replaced too.

Horses for courses, as they say.

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 Alkis 15 Jul 2020
In reply to elliot.baker:

I always wonder if anyone outside super rich people pays those sort of prices for a camper though. Certainly none of my climber friends have, even ones with really nice vans.

Post edited at 12:09
 Dark-Cloud 15 Jul 2020
In reply to peppermill:

Just need to go to a specialist insurer that's used to seeing conversions, basic or full, they insure them fine.

 Paul Sagar 15 Jul 2020

I'd like a 'proper' van because as an academic I could live out of it for weeks at a time when I'm not teaching in London (so most of summer). The idea of being able to just go to the Lakes, Cornwall, or Scotland based on the weather and not have to worry at all about accommodation is very appealing. I've lived out of the Kangoo for 2+ weeks in the Alps, but it does get wearisome because of the space faffing and the having to switch all the stuff around every evening. 

But what I am utterly convinced by is the point that quality of life goes up massively compared to camping! I sleep really badly in tents (uneven ground, too much noise, too hot/cold etc) and that usually buggers my next day's climbing. In my Kangoo I can get a perfect 8 hours - and given I hate mornings at the best of times, this can make a huge difference when it comes to the day's climbing. plus all the faff eliminated from not needing to book/find campsites, pitch tents, take tents down in the rain, etc.

 Paul Sagar 15 Jul 2020

PS on the whole 'vans are more expensive than 5 star hotels' thing - maybe, but then it isn't just about cost. No 5 star hotel belongs to me, is full of my gear, and can be taken anywhere I want, and ideally parked close to the next day's crag after a long drive the night before...

Post edited at 12:45
 jon 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> PS on the whole 'vans are more expensive than 5 star hotels' thing - maybe, but then it isn't just about cost. No 5 star hotel belongs to me, is full of my gear, and can be taken anywhere I want, and ideally parked close to the next day's crag after a long drive the night before...

Bugger, I can only give that one like...

 Red Rover 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Yes I agree and I don't think hotels in the UK work very well for climbing apart from a few areas, and I would never really bother with them anyway. I just used the hotel argument as a cost comparison. And for the odd weekend away I can have the convenience of a van in my 'camper hatchback'.

Post edited at 12:57
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In reply to Red Rover:

I love my van conversion, and any cost is worth not sleeping in a tent. It’s great for Font and Chamonix, although sometimes we rent gites, so it doesn’t always get used. It mostly gets used for weekend trips throughout the year. Any balance sheet negatives are outweighed by convenience and the fact that it’s a nice space to stay in. There’s a lot more to the value of something than its monetary cost.

 Osiris 15 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

What types of van are you looking at? I bought a fiat doblo for 4k. 45k miles. Feels like it was worth the money and insurance/fuel is the same as a car, but I know a guy who bought a bargain basement van for £600 and ran it round Europe until it was mistakenly crushed by the police. If you lower your standards you may find something cheap enough. Unless your budget is already as low as 600. (Note that insurance was roughly double for all the other vans i looked at of similar size eg. Caddy, NV200, Connect, Hiace).

Post edited at 13:01
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 Red Rover 15 Jul 2020
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

I'm glad you like it I can definitely see the benefit! I'm not anti-van at all (apart from the people who block passing places with them) and I looked into getting one but it seemed like a financial black hole especially as I would only use it on a weekend. 

Post edited at 13:05
 nikoid 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

With a lot of things the idea is sometimes better than the reality isn't it?😁

 Red Rover 15 Jul 2020
In reply to nikoid:

Yes #vanlife does sound amazing but for somebody without much time off work I find it hard to justify the cost. I'd do it if I could have a month off work or something. 

OP abr1966 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Osiris:

Been looking at panel vans....maybe a Vivaro or Trafic! Happy to spend decent money on one, probably up to 10k and then do a simple but flexible conversion with a pull out bed, basic kitchen units but not looking at gas fitting or electrical circuits at this point in time....

 Alkis 15 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

The RAC periodically sells off their orange vans, they are various brands but my T5 started life as one of those and they are usually good value for money and have had good motorway miles and reliable servicing. Keep an eye out.

In reply to nikoid:

This.

I fantasise about owning one*, imagine myself pulling up in the unspoilt wilderness, waking up to the sunrise etc.

Reality seems more like paying more for a campsite you could have just used a tent in or having a poo in a lay-by on a B-road.

* actually I did own one, a T4 westy which I sold as it was so tiring to drive far.

 climbercool 15 Jul 2020
In reply to abr1966:

I love campervans and has been said upthread they offer convenience and unique experiences that no hotel can match.  However another economic downside of camper vans is that campsites are often crazy expensive, often you can find an air bnb on the costa blanca for less money that it it costs to park your van in a muddy field in the U.K.

 J101 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

I bought a van (motorhome) and got myself 4 weeks off work last year...and ended up taking the car and a tent round the inner Hebrides instead.

It was a lovely idea but my car is so much easier to drive and most importantly park! A van definitely works for a lot of people but I'd not spend any serious money until you know if you're one of them.

 Alkis 15 Jul 2020
In reply to J101:

Yeah, proper large vans are not hugely practical in the UK, although that depends on what people want them for.

 Red Rover 15 Jul 2020
In reply to J101:

I will agree with van people that camping in the UK is generally miserable. And I don't think there are many countries which are worse for camping that Scotland. It's just a question of how much you are willing to pay to avoid it, or, can you sleep in your car.


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