UKH

Which electric car?

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I’m looking to replace my car in the next three, maybe four years.

I like to buy a 1-2 year old car and keep it for a decade. Makes sense that the next one will be electric.

Currently got a Leon, on paper an ID3 is the ideal replacement, in terms of size and range. However,  I really don’t like the styling. Both internally and externally.

I’ve not looked super hard so far, but I can’t see much in the market or due to launch in the next 12 months that has reasonable range and fits in that small/medium car bracket.

Any suggestions?

 girlymonkey 08 Apr 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

I haven't been looking at cars, but in our quest to choose an electric van recently we found the EV equivalent of UKC. It's full of EV geeks who will give you loads of great advice. It's called SpeakEV. 

And the electric van is amazing! It's so smooth and quiet! 😃 We are loving it!

 Hooo 08 Apr 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

The best suggestion I can think of is to wait a year or two. I've been looking for the same thing. I currently have a Nissan Leaf and I'm committed to electric but I want something with a decent range. At the moment it seems that anything with 250 mile range is 30k plus, because anything apart from a Tesla is less than a year old. In a year or two I'm hoping 250 mile range cars will be more affordable, although I don't really want to wait that long.

 ripper 08 Apr 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

Kia eNiro has had some good reviews

 mutt 08 Apr 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

I bought a Zoe in the 2021 spec for 23K. It looks small on the outside but it fits a family of 4 no problem, a paddle board in the boot or a couple of climbing sacks. I am really pleased with it.  VED and the fuel has barely cost me anything as its free at work. Only once have a baulked at driving long distances but on reflection having now learned that the fast chargers are available and lightly used I wouldn't hesitate. It drives very well, is quiet so the radio can be on low and when I want to overtake its like a rocket (unless all the seats are full). And its small so I can drive through the city without crowding out cyclists. Couldn't really be better,

 mutt 08 Apr 2021
In reply to Hooo:

why do you want 250 mile range? you already own an electric car so you know that they can be charged overnight at home or work to cover all the daily miles. Most electric car's have fast chargers now so, what for me would be the exceptional trip beyond the 170 mile range my Zoe has, can easily be managed with a small amount of patience. specmanship is a the devil in disguise. less is more when it comes to electric motoring. 

 wintertree 08 Apr 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

Now feels like a really bad time to buy an EV - there’s a freight train of options coming to market - although if you’re buying recent used it’s a few more years before they percolate down.

We have a new model leaf, replaced our old model leaf.  Although I despise it’s almost feedback free electronic power steering it is otherwise one of the nicest cars I’ve ever owned or driven, (excluding some “exotics”).  Really practical family car, and the closest thing to an EV hot hatch on the market (which isn’t saying much).   Currently the plan is to keep it for a decade.  

 Hooo 08 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

Is the 2021 Zoe significantly bigger than the older ones? We looked at one last summer (when I bought the Leaf), I don't remember the year but 3 or 4 years old. It was tiny and crappy inside. We all 3 got in, took a look round, said Nah and got out. The Leaf on the other hand had plenty of space and is a much nicer car.

 wintertree 08 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

> why do you want 250 mile range?

I’d like 250 miles; rapid charging and even 32A AC chargers are quite thin on the ground in parts of the north east away from urban areas, especially factoring in the fraction that tend to be borked at any one time.  Our Leaf is 160 miles range (if very careful) and that’s uncomfortably close to limiting for longer day trips or short holidays to a destination without charging in Northumberland.  
 

One day I hope we can go on a family driving holiday through Europe.  Even 250 miles range would have tripled the number of stops my trusty old 306 did getting us to Cala Gonone and back during Eyjafjallajökull.

Edit: as autonomous driving kicks in over the next decade, long range becomes more interesting - sleep for 6 hours with the windows blacked out whilst the car puts down 350 miles; transformative stuff that.  A year in to having a car that can drive itself on roads with white lines down both sides of the lane (some main single carriageway and all dual + motorways) and the novelty still hasn’t worn off.

Post edited at 22:02
 Hooo 08 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

I already own an electric car, so I know what's involved. Public charging sucks, at least down in the South East. I'm doing it now because I'm committed to electric, but it is starting to get very old. I want to be in a position where public charging is a a rare event, only if do a long journey and only once on that journey. A car with 250 mile range means a reliable 200 mile range in cold / hot / motorway conditions. That's the minimum required to meet my criteria.

 Hooo 08 Apr 2021
In reply to ripper:

The e-Niro is top of my list. I am waiting for the used ones to become affordable.

In reply to The New NickB:

My son's just bought his first car (at 35), he thought he might never actually need to own one and just hire when required but latest job necessitates it. He wants to go all electric but reckons it'll be another 3 years until really decent (enough) ones become affordable 2nd hand, so he's just buying as a 3 year stop-gap for now.

If you can find an electric that fulfils your needs and fits into your lifestyle & circumstances, then go for it. Otherwise (IMO) probably better to wait until electrics improve further - it's still a pretty young technology so I think big advances are still there to be made.

Post edited at 22:30
 nathan79 08 Apr 2021
In reply to Hooo:

Some friends recently bought one, a family of 4 (2 young kids). It's a nice looking car and a decent size. I haven't had the chance to grill them about their experiences yet but I'm using them as a long term review for when they're available used and a much more reasonable price.

 Jamie Wakeham 08 Apr 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

I've got an e-Niro, on a four year lease.  I didn't want to commit to buying, as I have a suspicion that over the next decade battery tech will come on so far that these relatively early EVs will become significantly devalued.

It's hard to properly review it because I got it in November, and have done a grand total of about 1000 miles over the last five months!  What I can say is that it's reasonably spacious - the last car was an Outlander so it was always going to feel a bit smaller, but it's comparable to the Yeti I had before that.  Up to about 50mph it feels seriously quick; it's very easy to spin the wheels on takeoff.  It's no slouch beyond 50mph either, but (as with all EVs) the initial acceleration is surprising.

I haven't got anywhere near testing the full range - not driven far enough in one go - but judging by the battery meter the claimed range of 282 miles ought to be achievable.  Extrapolating, I've been getting around 240 miles even in winter.  It's very sensitive to your speed and driving style, and rather less sensitive to use of things like the AC and heater.

My only annoyance so far: for more than 20 years I have been able to look at my speedo, and then hold a steady speed for long periods of time without glancing back.  In every car I've owned, I could check I was doing, say, 30mph, and a mile or two later I'd still be doing 30 +- 2mph.  I now realise I must have been doing this by listening to the engine tone, because in this car I'll be 5mph out within a couple of hundred metres!

Post edited at 23:04
 BennoC 08 Apr 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I also have an eNiro.  I've had it for three weeks and covered nearly 1500 miles in it. I'd echo what you say regarding size and speed, it's a nice car and feels like the future. I've done a few 100m + drives in the short time I've had it and never worried about range.

 nathan79 08 Apr 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

How is the space in the back with the seats down? I'd be looking for something that I could sleep in and at other times stick a bike or two in.

 Jamie Wakeham 09 Apr 2021
In reply to nathan79:

Not that great.  I suspect not enough for sleeping in, and also probably not enough for bikes without taking a wheel off.  I can measure it over the weekend if you want.

 nathan79 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I suspected this might be the case. I may just have to wait for the electric Skoda Octavia estate or viable alternative.

 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Hooo:

> Is the 2021 Zoe significantly bigger than the older ones? We looked at one last summer (when I bought the Leaf), I don't remember the year but 3 or 4 years old. It was tiny and crappy inside. We all 3 got in, took a look round, said Nah and got out. The Leaf on the other hand had plenty of space and is a much nicer car.

Well I was concerned about the size too so I took by 6ft son on the test drive. He sat in the back and declared that the size was just fine. I guess that is because all he does in the back of the car is listen to music on his headphones and swipe his phone. 

The new Zoe has addressed all of the problems of tiny crappiness of the old version. But you will find that the solidness that the ICE can carry is a thing of the past. The BMW I3 is really nice but feels very 'tinny' too. Its the weight of the batteries that make this a necessity. Electric cars are considerably heavier than ICE's. So all the weight has to come out of the interior. You can look at it as a problem, but in doing so you are anchoring yourself in the values of the past. 

The leaf does feel a bit more like an ICE. its built with that in mind but when I test drove it I found that the 20 miles that the comforts knock off the range was troubling. I actually rolled back into the showroom with just 1 mile left in the battery! And actually the car had no real advantages for all that weight. Its still a small car though you might get 5 people in if that is important to you. And the clever pedal is very clever but also unnecessary.

So having tried all those cars I realised that what I value in an electric car is lightness. lightness means that the batteries aren't spending most of the stored energy propelling other batteries. I just want a car to get me and the family to their destination. 

If you value your comforts more highly than I then the leaf might be better, but you'll pay a lot more, and if you value space then BMWI3 is probably the right choice but you'll pay a lot more. And if you value range then you are probably living in some fantasy world inventing in the 20th century where we drive into the wide distant yonder, and you could dig deep and get yourself a Tesla. 

 Hooo 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

I might take a look at the new Zoe then.

By "clever pedal" do you mean B-mode? Is that not standard on all electric cars? It's brilliant and I'd hate to lose it. It's one of the things that makes an electric car so great.

Not sure what you're on about with "fantasy world". The e-Niro is no fantasy, I've been in one. And it's far from the only car with a 250 mile range.

Post edited at 10:47
 wbo2 09 Apr 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

Hyundai Kona with 64kw battery.  Very similar to e Niro (hyundai own Kia).  There are new kids and Hyundais coming this year. 

I don't especially like the idea interior either. 

The i3 is looking really dated now. Avoid

 elliot.baker 09 Apr 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

Third vote for the e-Niro we just got one on salary sacrifice (very good way to get one), haven't had to drive it beyond it's range yet but it's an absolute joy to drive (auto lane keeping and smart cruise control feels like about 85% of full autonomous driving). The hifi is nice as well. Boot decent size. Loads of other gadgets and clever little features. It is very fast for what looks like a relatively frumpy family car.

The excellent reviews are true. I realised that if you count a journey as just getting in the car and getting out again (e.g. driving to the shops and back is 2 journeys) then I think I would not need to charge it at a public charging point for more than 99% of my journeys in the car. E.g. I could get to Snowdonia for a camping trip, and only have to charge it when I was half way back (we live in Derbyshire); or I could get to the Lakes, charge it in a town when we got there, and then perhaps not have to charge again until I got home. The smugness you feel when passing ye olde petrol stations is priceless.

 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> > why do you want 250 mile range?

> I’d like 250 miles; rapid charging and even 32A AC chargers are quite thin on the ground in parts of the north east away from urban areas, especially factoring in the fraction that tend to be borked at any one time.  Our Leaf is 160 miles range (if very careful) and that’s uncomfortably close to limiting for longer day trips or short holidays to a destination without charging in Northumberland.

Sure we'd all like to drive a long way and not have to bother ourselves about charging. But in the 3-4 months that I've had the zoe I have never had to use a charger away from home or work. I don't anticipate using a fast charger more than about 5 times a year, on trips to pembroke and cornwall. It's just not worth carting the extra batteries around for the extra mileage I will hardly ever use.  

> One day I hope we can go on a family driving holiday through Europe.  Even 250 miles range would have tripled the number of stops my trusty old 306 did getting us to Cala Gonone and back during Eyjafjallajökull.

sure but if we are talking about one holiday in several years time wouldn't it be better to spend the £20000 you'll spend on batteries to make that achievable on train tickets, hire car and 5 star hotels? So scratch that from your evaluation criteria and where does it leave you? 

> Edit: as autonomous driving kicks in over the next decade, long range becomes more interesting - sleep for 6 hours with the windows blacked out whilst the car puts down 350 miles; transformative stuff that.  A year in to having a car that can drive itself on roads with white lines down both sides of the lane (some main single carriageway and all dual + motorways) and the novelty still hasn’t worn off.

we are at least 10 years away from that so best forget that too as a criteria. its marketing crap from tesla.

 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Hooo:

the clever pedal is on the leaf. it adaptively brakes for you. The Zoe just uses the regen unit as you would have used a brake, so the harder you break the more electricity you generate. it works great and the real brakes hardly ever  get used.

my point about "fantasy" is that of driving into the wide blue yonder without having to concern yourself about range. To realise this you need about 70KW capacity which is why long range costs way more. How often do you drive 250 miles without stopping? Is it worth paying for and transporting 20KW of extra battery capacity? probably not for 99% of car users.

In reply to The New NickB: Don't know much about the cars but this is a good tool for CO2 emission calcs.

https://www.transportenvironment.org/what-we-do/electric-cars/how-clean-are-electric-cars

Worth noting that for low mileage occasional drivers battery production for the e EV is a significant factor, but then the financial aspect will put most likely put you off anyway.

In reply to The New NickB:

It seems to me that very few electrics at the moment have the same sort of styling as their petrol/diesel counterparts.  I expect this will change as they become more mainstream, so maybe delaying a bit would make sense?  I changed my car last July and did look at electrics but thought the market wasn't really ready, but reckon it pretty certainly will be in about 2-3 years' time when I next potentially change (I tend to keep cars for about 3-5 years).

In reply to mutt:

> why do you want 250 mile range? you already own an electric car so you know that they can be charged overnight at home or work to cover all the daily miles. Most electric car's have fast chargers now so, what for me would be the exceptional trip beyond the 170 mile range

Depends what your need is I guess, for me I mostly do longer journeys by car, local journeys I'd rather cycle.  So I'd certainly want at least 200 miles to avoid any "range anxiety", particularly as battery life degrades over time.

This was a key reason I thought the market wasn't ready for me.

When there's a charger in every bay in every car park, then that might change, but that's a long, long way off.

Another reason for wanting more range is if you don't have off street parking and so can't charge at home.  If your work car park is fitted with chargers and you go in daily, that can replace it, but if not you're down to probably charging once a week at the supermarket.

Post edited at 12:03
In reply to Hooo:

Might be one for me to look at in due course, it is a very similar shape to my present Ford Kuga.

In reply to Neil Williams:

> Depends what your need is I guess, for me I mostly do longer journeys by car, local journeys I'd rather cycle.  So I'd certainly want at least 200 miles to avoid any "range anxiety", particularly as battery life degrades over time.

Same here, but I wouldn't want the financial or environmental cost of having an long range EV I only used occasionally, and as mutt says dragging the weight round when I did use it for shorter trips.

I'm wandering how this will be addressed over the next decade as we approach the ICE ban. I'm thinking rental of long range EVs might be the way forward. I always 'liked' owning a car, but that's a mindset thing I reckon I can change.

 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

ok, I'm not saying you are wrong, but here are some considerations.

if its just occasional long journeys then why have a car at all? hire one or take the train and save yourself £20k. I suspect the answer is that you also use it to pop to the shops and if that is the reason for not dispensing with the car entirely then the shopping trip becomes the primary reason does it not? The only way to be sure is to calculate where your miles actually go.  it would be very unusual for a motorist to expend the majority of their miles in journeys of >200miles unless you happen to be a travelling salesman. 

Battery degradation is not as you  say. That is ICE propoganda. There is a mass or evidence now and that shows a 10% degredation if the car is cycled between 100% and 0% or 5% if it is cycled between 80% and 20% (over 100,000 miles). However you would be much more effected by weather conditions. In winter the range can be degraded by 33% but then who really drives a long way in winter anyway?

I think there is a charger in most supermarkets and most municipal car parks. I have friends who are in your situation who charge their cars in the local supermarket whenever needed. 

Yes its all a bit troubling from the outside - but the reality of electric car ownership is much more positive

In reply to mutt:

> ok, I'm not saying you are wrong, but here are some considerations.

> if its just occasional long journeys then why have a car at all? hire one or take the train and save yourself £20k. I suspect the answer is that you also use it to pop to the shops and if that is the reason for not dispensing with the car entirely then the shopping trip becomes the primary reason does it not?

I'd avoid the assumptions! I've been through this exercise and for me the reason I don't dispense with the car is I still want to be able to get to my parents at short notice 30 miles away.

 Jamie Wakeham 09 Apr 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

On battery degradation - there's a reason taxi drivers love the Prius, and they are not known for being gentle to their cars!

For me, the critical thing was being able to do the two toughest things in my usual life - drive to the northern part of the Lakes from Oxford, or day trip the Peak - without significantly changing the pattern of the day.  I don't exactly like doing one day trips to the Peak but my work as an instructor sometimes requires it, as do freshers' trips for my mountaineering club.  Oxford -> Stanage -> Oxford is almost exactly 300 miles, and so is Oxford -> my friends' house in the Lakes.

Fifteen minutes on a 50kW motorway charger delivers about 12kWh, and that's about 45 miles.  Fifteen minutes is what I call a reasonable time to drink a coffee and stretch my legs halfway through along drive.  

So, I was waiting for a car with a genuine 250 mile range, because this means that on either of these drives, two stops gets me to an overall range of 340 miles.  That's enough to complete the drive and keep a few tens of miles in reserve for disasters.  Theoretically I could just about do either trip on just one stop, but I'm not sure I'm quite that brave...

Post edited at 12:54
 wintertree 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

> Sure we'd all like to drive a long way and not have to bother ourselves about charging. But in the 3-4 months that I've had the zoe I have never had to use a charger away from home or work. I don't anticipate using a fast charger more than about 5 times a year, on trips to pembroke and cornwall. It's just not worth carting the extra batteries around for the extra mileage I will hardly ever use.  

We've had an EV for 3.5 years now, and we public charged at destinations quite often in our old Leaf (range circa 90 miles), much less often in our new one (range circa 150 miles).  We both work in different locations so maintain two cars, and the second one will remain a diesel until we can get an affordable EV with 250 miles range.  Different for different people but that's where we find ourselves.  If/when the number and serviceability of rapid (rapid, not fast) chargers away from urban areas and motorways increased in North Yorkshire and Northumberland, we could get by with the 150 mile Leaf

> we are at least 10 years away from that so best forget that too as a criteria. its marketing crap from tesla.

I wasn't suggesting it as relevant to a purchase now, but stating that I think autonomous driving is going to radically change the value proposition of long range EVs for some people.   I also don't think it's purely marketing B/S from Tesla.  A lot of other companies are spending large on autonomy, just without the fanfare.  I'd be disappointed if it's not a wider reality in 5 years, let alone 10.  

Post edited at 13:23
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> I'm wandering how this will be addressed over the next decade as we approach the ICE ban. I'm thinking rental of long range EVs might be the way forward. I always 'liked' owning a car, but that's a mindset thing I reckon I can change.

I would switch to hiring (and possibly not own at all) if and only if I could specify, and be guaranteed, a specific model.  I'm 6' 4" and almost that broad, and so I don't fit all cars, and it's not obvious from the car's size if I'll fit or not.  OK, this is slightly niche and most cars are better than they were, but the issue is mainly down to the shape of the dash and how much the wheel adjusts as to whether my knees will fit in or not, so I can't guarantee to fit just based on the category of car.  To give you an idea how it varies I do fit a Fiat Punto (very comfortably in fact) but I don't fit a Vauxhall Mokka.

I accept this is a bit niche.

I'd add to that that hiring needs to be convenient and well-priced, and charging me an extra day because the hire company can't be bothered opening their location on a Sunday is not a sales pitch.  The ideal would be to co-locate hire locations with public transport hubs, e.g. railway stations, and have them open (even if automated) for the full period of service of the public transport.

Post edited at 13:32
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I accept this is a bit niche.

It's a real concern for you!

> I'd add to that that hiring needs to be convenient and well-priced, and charging me an extra day because the hire company can't be bothered opening their location on a Sunday is not a sales pitch.  The ideal would be to co-locate hire locations with public transport hubs, e.g. railway stations, and have them open (even if automated) for the full period of service of the public transport.

Yeah, car rental service will have to improve dramatically, I'm hoping some new players will come into the business.

In reply to mutt:

> if its just occasional long journeys then why have a car at all? hire one or take the train and save yourself £20k

The answer is that per my other reply hiring is inconvenient and doesn't take into account my (admittedly slightly niche) needs.

> I suspect the answer is that you also use it to pop to the shops

Actually, I don't "pop to the shops" very often at all.  For big stuff I have a delivery, and for top-ups and fresh stuff I have a good Co-op within 10 minutes' walk.  I do use it to go to the chippy which is slightly further away, but it would be to my benefit to do that less   I otherwise prefer to cycle local journeys where feasible.

I tend to find the advantage of car ownership generally is of sponteity.  That is, if, at 5:30 today (if COVID wasn't on) I wanted to chuck my tent in the boot and drive up to Gwern Gof Uchaf, I could do that, nothing else to arrange.

If you look at it purely financially, it doesn't make sense for me to own a car (though equally I don't spend £20K on them either, my last one was £13K and I don't overly want to spend more, another reason the electric market isn't ready for me).  But to me it is a lifestyle choice.  That's in a way why sanctimonious people shouting "but you should account 45p a mile for your car use" tend to get ignored - it's effectively to me a monthly fee (loan, insurance and servicing) that provides me that mobility.

Could things change to improve that?  A decent bus service would help, as would train fares not being structured to push advance booking.  Taxis can help, but I really dislike them for several reasons, one that I have to share a car journey with someone I don't know and don't necessarily like and either make awkward conversation, or sit in the back and feel carsick (if I can't see forwards I tend to feel yuck, and modern cars have large headrests that tend to prevent that), another that the standard of driving is invariably unacceptable to me.  I like to cycle many local journeys, but that doesn't work well if I've got a lot of stuff with me.

> and if that is the reason for not dispensing with the car entirely then the shopping trip becomes the primary reason does it not? The only way to be sure is to calculate where your miles actually go.  it would be very unusual for a motorist to expend the majority of their miles in journeys of >200miles unless you happen to be a travelling salesman. 

I suspect I am unusual because I prefer not to use it for local journeys, which only leaves the longer ones, or perhaps occasional trips to a DIY store, the tip etc (but not that often).

> Battery degradation is not as you  say. That is ICE propoganda. There is a mass or evidence now and that shows a 10% degredation if the car is cycled between 100% and 0% or 5% if it is cycled between 80% and 20% (over 100,000 miles). However you would be much more effected by weather conditions. In winter the range can be degraded by 33% but then who really drives a long way in winter anyway?

I'd imagine there are a very large number of people on UKC who do exactly that - ever heard of winter mountaineering and hillwalking? :D

> I think there is a charger in most supermarkets and most municipal car parks. I have friends who are in your situation who charge their cars in the local supermarket whenever needed. 

I don't visit the supermarket, it's purgatory, I've been in them single-figure times since last March and even before that I went very rarely.  I have deliveries and top up from my local Co-op.  One positive of recent years in this regard is that we've moved from local "corner" shops being rubbish and very expensive (so for anything decent you had to go to the big place) to them being very feasible for "top-up" shopping of fresh food, with deliveries of non-perishables and freezer stuff.  Of course this sort of provision does allow moving away from car ownership, I suppose.

> Yes its all a bit troubling from the outside - but the reality of electric car ownership is much more positive

Not ready for me yet.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

> Yeah, car rental service will have to improve dramatically, I'm hoping some new players will come into the business.

I was in a way surprised Stelios' easyCar didn't work - that's the sort of concept they need to look at, really - a small number of different models of vehicle, convenient locations and a high level of automation to allow me to decide I want to hire a car at 3am, for example, e.g. if a family member was unwell.

That said, the advance-booking-based model does not suit me at all.  To compete with private car ownership, spontaneity needs to be affordable (this is where the railways these days fail very badly - I get charging more for busy trains to encourage people onto quieter ones, but charging more for booking on the day does not effectively compete with the car). 

And that includes availability.  MK is a trial town for the e-scooter hire schemes, and I think they are great and have used them a few times,  but I can't plan around them because I can't be sure if, and where, one will be available, whereas if there's a bus from outside the station at 4pm I can be reasonably sure (a) it'll be there and (b) I can get on, because capacity is quite flexible as you plan for the seated capacity but can expand into standing passengers.  Taxis are an issue in this regard too - yes, they're very convenient if one is there, but if you pull out your phone and the wait is half an hour that is not workable.

Post edited at 13:57
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I've just sold my Prius and there was no battery deterioration that I could detect after more than 15 years of driving.

In reply to John Stainforth:

> I've just sold my Prius and there was no battery deterioration that I could detect after more than 15 years of driving.

Given that we know phone lithium batteries etc do degrade substantially, are car batteries of different chemistry, or is something different done to how they are managed in software, given that we generally expect a phone to last 2-3 years, a laptop maybe 4-5 but a car well over 10?

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

>  Fifteen minutes on a 50kW motorway charger delivers about 12kWh, and that's about 45 miles.  Fifteen minutes is what I call a reasonable time to drink a coffee and stretch my legs halfway through along drive.  

12 kWh is equivalent to about a third of a gallon of fuel, so that's a great "mpg" for a 45 mile trip. But fifteen minutes to deliver a third of a gallon equivalent at a service station is still very slow. Service stations will have to dramatically increase their electrical energy delivery rates if they want to compete with home charging of batteries of greater and greater capacity.

In reply to Neil Williams:

> Given that we know phone lithium batteries etc do degrade substantially, are car batteries of different chemistry, or is something different done to how they are managed in software, given that we generally expect a phone to last 2-3 years, a laptop maybe 4-5 but a car well over 10?

I don't know. I am very surprised myself. One of my hobbies is flying RC model planes and some of those are electrically powered by LiPo batteries. Generally, those batteries do not last very well even when they are looked after very well by "cycling", and leaving them half charged, and "balancing" the cells. They are also prone to heating problems (and even fires) and puffing up. (For these reasons, I prefer i.c. engines for model aircraft.) I used to worry about potential heating of the battery in my Prius in the (Texan) heat, but that or any other problems never emerged. At the time I bought the Prius, Toyota were guaranteeing the whole power-train and battery for 8 years and 100,000 miles, so they must have known that their batteries were excellent.

ps. The mileage on my Prius when I sold it was 92,000 miles.

Post edited at 14:58
In reply to John Stainforth:

The other issue will of course be availability of charging points if/when electric car ownership increases. Hopefully the infrastructure will keep up without queues effectively forming at charging points.

I'm involved with a large inner London high value residential site, the site management is sorting out the High Voltage stuff so that every space in the underground car park will be able to have a charging point. Residents will have to pay to get their own space's charging point installed but the capacity will be there. It is the way things are going to go in cities.

Incidentally, what have you replaced your (presumably) trusty Prius with?

Edit: little ICEs for model aircraft are also a lot of fun - been many decades since I dabbled in that.

Post edited at 15:04
 Hooo 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

I've just checked out the current Zoe, and it says it has a 52kWh battery, The e-Niro has 64kWh, so about 25% bigger. So the "excessive range" car that I'm hoping to get is not massively different from the car you own. I don't really see your point?

The current Zoe might well do me, so I will definitely take a look at them.

 Hooo 09 Apr 2021
In reply to John Stainforth:

IIRC the old Prius had a NiMh battery? Completely different technology, with a much lower capacity than current electric cars.

 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to John Stainforth:

indeed but in reality service stations will disappear. it makes much more sense to charge at a place that is nice to be. For instance at the cinema or at the cafe, or dare I say at the climbing wall. Who is going to spend any time in a stinking diesel dispensing forecourt when electricity is (often freely) available from much more pleasant environments,

 Hooo 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

> Battery degradation is not as you  say. That is ICE propoganda. There is a mass or evidence now and that shows a 10% degredation if the car is cycled between 100% and 0% or 5% if it is cycled between 80% and 20% (over 100,000 miles).

As a Leaf owner I can say that battery degradation can be a real problem with some cars. Mine's down 15% after 40k miles.

In reply to Michael Hood:

>  Incidentally, what have you replaced your (presumably) trusty Prius with?

> Edit: little ICEs for model aircraft are also a lot of fun - been many decades since I dabbled in that.

I haven't replaced my Prius because I have sold that along with my house in the US. In the UK, I have a diesel Volkswagen Golf and I am watching the EV developments carefully before taking the plunge with a replacement for that. (Like Wintertree, I don't think right now is the best time to buy an EV vehicle.)

 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Hooo:

I was just saying batteries are expensive and heavy. if you can by with 52Kwh why would you want 64Kwh's 

but all the debate about the ergonomics of electric vehicles seems to revolve around range when for the most part the extra battery capacity to reach the 250th mile is never employed. So why pay for and carry the extra batteries? 

And, also those who want to attack electrification make the point that battery production is itself quite environmentally damaging. 

My point is - buy a car that meets you needs and don't buy one on its spec sheet. 10 hours drinking coffee over a year isn't so bad. you don't need to by a car for your longest journey.

but equally if the e-Niro meets your everyday needs then go for it.

 David Riley 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

>  the extra battery capacity to reach the 250th mile is never employed. So why pay for and carry the extra batteries?

The life of batteries is reduced depending on the percentage of the capacity used. The more you have spare, the longer they last.

 SDM 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

It sounds like the MK e-scooter trial is a fair way behind the Northampton one. I have barely been to MK in the last year due to covid so am not familiar with their system.

As long as you aren't on the edge of town right at the limits of the area covered, you can guarantee that there will be one close by. You can see the location of all of the available scooters and rarely have to walk as far as 100m to find one. I haven't ever attempted to find one at the station during rush hour though so I don't know whether it works for that.

Their system of financially incentivising people to park them considerately and to park them in higher demand areas seems to be quite effective.

On the downside, there is a small but noticeable minority who ride them like idiots (probably not a higher percentage than drivers or cyclists though) and a lot of people are bypassing the age limits to let children use them.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Yes, there are several different chemistrys for lithium batteries used in different appliances. Phone /laptop batteries have little or no cooling and are designed for maximum output for weight at point of sale in a single cell.

The use of active temperature management in EV batteries is a massive factor in their longevity. The battery management systems will also constantly monitor the hundreds of cells across the pack to ensure they are under equal strain and avoid indervidual cells being over worked. 

 wintertree 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Given that we know phone lithium batteries etc do degrade substantially, are car batteries of different chemistry, or is something different done to how they are managed in software, given that we generally expect a phone to last 2-3 years, a laptop maybe 4-5 but a car well over 10?

"Lithium" isn't really a battery type; there are vastly different chemistries and cell designs out there, both of which affect longevity.  As do driving style (thrashing it and regeneratively breaking hard a lot), thermal management, rapid charging (50 kW+), fully cycling the pack regularly vs keeping it between 20% and 80%  These things tend to interact - especially thrashing it, rapid charging and charing beyond 80% when the pack it hot, which ties back to thermal management or lack thereof.

In reply to mutt:

> And, also those who want to attack electrification make the point that battery production is itself quite environmentally damaging. 

No, it's those who are concerned about the environment, and wish to point out the realities when there's a fair bit of green washing going on.

Buying an EV, compared to an ICE, is LESS environmentally damaging if you drive frequently and do not wish to make the lifestyle changes to reduce the amount you drive significantly. It still comes a very poor second to actually driving less.

 jimtitt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to John Stainforth:

The older Prius had NiMH and depending on the model still does, Toyota use both interchangeably.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Your point is true, but this is a climbing forum so it is likely that most users will continue to make use of personal transport.

On buying my first rack as a spotty student I was promptly told that a car was really the most important piece of climbing equipment, and tbh that is probably true haveing struggled through a fair few trips without out one.

We managed to two trips into the Peak for climbing and Bikeing in two days over Easter, using our Leaf 30kw which required a short rapid charge on each journey (Chapel le Frith Morrisons and Knutsford services) but no problems encountered and allowed us to have a nice cup of tea and so some route planning. Really made no difference to the enjoyment of the day's out in the sun.

My Brother in law just picked up a new ID3 andhe loves it so far. Same room for the kids in the back as his old Passat on a shorter wheelbase. Great fun to drive and even got a good discount from the dealer wanting to move stock so its worth asking around. I think Seat and Skoda are bringing re-badged versions of the ID3 this year for those who don't like the VW styling. 

 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> No, it's those who are concerned about the environment, and wish to point out the realities when there's a fair bit of green washing going on.

I wasn't making the point myself, I was just reporting what other say, and yes there is a lot of greenwash about. But who can really say that not having a car is at all possible in this society we live in. I would be the first to give up my car if there were proper investment in green alternatives. Infact whenever I can I cycle to work and that at times has been 20miles each way, and taken the train, but our society is organised around the car no matter what the 'best' solution to this environmental catastrophe might be. I wish it were otherwise.

In reply to Neston Climber:

> Your point is true, but this is a climbing forum so it is likely that most users will continue to make use of personal transport.

Indeed, the only driving I do nowadays is days out (climbing and walking), and visiting family. I stopped climbing outside after work to cut down on the driving. I intend to go electric when my current car needs replacing, but on the miles I do it wouldn't be environmentally beneficial to change before I need to.

 Hooo 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike Stretford:

I'd been saying for a while that my next car was going to be electric, but I thought I had a couple of years for them to improve a bit. Then my Golf went up in a puff of smoke and suddenly it was "oh shit, need to buy a car". Probably not the most sensible way of getting involved in all this

 Hooo 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

If you don't mind me asking, how did you get a 2021 Zoe for £23k? That does sound like a very good deal compared to an e-Niro.

 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Hooo:

it was an ex demo with 3000K on the clock for £24500  from our local Renault dealer, and I traded in my totally banged up mondeo for £750.

its a Renault Zoe 100KW i GT Line R135 50KWh RapidCharge and I was able to haggle HARD because I was paying in cash having arranged the finance in advance. I bought it through my company too which gave me extra leverage as the company year end was coming up.

 mattc 09 Apr 2021
In reply to girlymonkey:

Hi what van did you buy?

Did you consider the London electric vehicle company van?  

Its an electric van with a small petrol motor to charge the battery interesting idea. 

 TMM 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

> it was an ex demo with 3000K on the clock for £24500  from our local Renault dealer, and I traded in my totally banged up mondeo for £750.

Wow! That is galactic mileage. Really impressive that the battery performs over that distance. Impressive charge times to allow for the 30k a day mileage!

 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mattc:

isn't that an ICE in disguise? I think the whole point of the switch to electric is to use energy from sustainable sources. I know were not all there yet but its a damned sight better than petrol.

In reply to mutt:

> isn't that an ICE in disguise? I think the whole point of the switch to electric is to use energy from sustainable sources. I know were not all there yet but its a damned sight better than petrol.

Not all ICEs are created equal.  There are several notable benefits of this sort of hybrid:

1. No pollution at the point of use in cities where it causes most harm;

2. The engine can be quite small and can be run, when it is running, at its most efficient RPM and loading;

3. You can plug in and charge, and so might not need the engine anyway.

It's not as good as pure electric, but it's certainly much better than a diesel van, which is what you'd have otherwise.

Post edited at 16:55
 Hooo 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mattc:

So basically a van with a generator in the back?

In reply to Hooo:

> So basically a van with a generator in the back?

A van with a battery and a generator in the back, the advantages of which are providing the full range of an ICE vehicle if needed, but also giving you the option to avoid using said generator, and allowing it to be run only outside of cities where pollution at the point of use is not as important.  (The carbon argument is not as strong until such time as the whole grid is renewable and zero-carbon).  Also allows for regenerative braking, i.e. using "braking" through the electric motors to charge the battery (which avoids another type of particulate - brake dust - being emitted).

Interestingly the railway is implementing something very similar on the Class 230 (diesel-converted ex-Tube stock) for the Borderlands Line in North Wales.

If it wasn't for the presence of a battery, what you'd have is a petrol van with electric transmission (which is rare in road vehicles but very, very common in rail vehicles) - that does have some benefits but none in terms of pollution.

Post edited at 17:06
 wintertree 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mutt:

> isn't that an ICE in disguise? I think the whole point of the switch to electric is to use energy from sustainable sources. I know were not all there yet but its a damned sight better than petrol.

A lot of the point is also about improved urban air quality, and that's certainly where the government have been facing immediate legal challenges.  

Even a mild hybrid can improve the efficiency and cleanliness of ICE.  A useful stepping stone given that we can't build anything like enough batteries for everyone to go EV right now, and we probably won't be able to do in anything like a sustainable way until aluminium ion cells are in Industrial scale production.  I could see those opening up 200 kWh packs lighter than current 50 kWh packs, at which point the range issue goes away and people without access to home charging can just fill up at energy stations much like with fossils.

 jimtitt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Neston

> My Brother in law just picked up a new ID3 andhe loves it so far. Same room for the kids in the back as his old Passat on a shorter wheelbase.

That's the one with no roof rack or trailer hitch isn't it?

Until someone builds something with 7 seats that can carry 600kg, a top box, I can sleep in in comfort, 2m sheets of Sterling board and tow 1800kg I'll stick to my ageing Galaxy. 600km range and cruising at 180km/hr is just a bonus. There are other ways to save the planet.

In reply to wintertree:

I'm actually quite surprised that kind of hybrid wasn't pushed as an interim "next 10-15 years" thing before a move to fully electric.  Such hybrids could have a GPS based setup that automatically disables the petrol engine within the built-up area of a city, for example.

There are essentially two types of pollution we want to stop by way of electrifying transport.  A lot of people conflate them but they are actually quite distinct.

The more immediate serious one is particulates, NOx, sulphur etc at the point of use where people directly breathe it in, primarily in towns and cities.  This exascerbates health problems e.g. asthma, and is an immediate issue, so really should be the number one priority.  It is this one that things like the London ULEZ are targetted at.

The longer-term (but still serious) one is carbon emissions.  Electric vehicles are part of that, but increased decarbonisation of the grid is required for that, and that's slightly longer term and slower.

The sort of plug-in hybrid under discussion addresses 1, and to a lesser (but nonzero) extent 2.

Post edited at 17:27
 mutt 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

and the third type of pollution is every type of motorise vehicle in towns and cities crowding out all the green space and pedestrian ways. Roads themselves have a major impact on the liveability of cities. and towns. We just don't notice until a pandemic comes along and the cars are gone.

In reply to mutt:

> and the third type of pollution is every type of motorise vehicle in towns and cities crowding out all the green space and pedestrian ways. Roads themselves have a major impact on the liveability of cities. and towns. We just don't notice until a pandemic comes along and the cars are gone.

Of course by purchasing and using an electric vehicle you do nothing to solve that one.  Indeed electric vehicles may be actively negative for this, as you would, somewhere like Manchester, get a perfectly valid argument of "why shouldn't I drive my electric car into the city centre instead of using the polluting, 30 year old, mucky, overcrowded diesel train".

Post edited at 17:43
 Jamie Wakeham 09 Apr 2021
In reply to John Stainforth:

> 12 kWh is equivalent to about a third of a gallon of fuel, so that's a great "mpg" for a 45 mile trip. But fifteen minutes to deliver a third of a gallon equivalent at a service station is still very slow. Service stations will have to dramatically increase their electrical energy delivery rates if they want to compete with home charging of batteries of greater and greater capacity.

I guess that, by 12kWh being equivalent to a third of a gallon of fuel, you're talking energy content?  An EV will win on that measure because an electric motor is very efficient, whilst the ICE wastes most of its energy as heat.

Do we need faster chargers?  I'm not sure.  50kW is already pretty silly - it's like eighteen domestic kettles in parallel.  It's effectively charging my car at 180mph (I love that mph is a reasonable unit for charge speed).  There are a few 100kW and even some 150kW chargers out there.  The latter will do about 500mph.

That 150kW charger will replace 200 miles in 24 minutes.  I just can't see the point of charging much faster than that, because after I've driven another 200 miles (ie three hours on the road) I want another decent break.

Also, batteries will get lighter and will hold more energy.  And EVs will probably improve on their current miles/kWh metric too - it's around 4m/kWH now and we can't be anywhere near maximising that.  I won't be surprised to see affordable 500 mile EVs soon.

 girlymonkey 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Hooo:

That same process was a part of our decision. When we bought the old diesel van we said it would be our last ICE. It turns out to not quite be true as the catalyst to our new van was that we needed a second vehicle, so we have bought a wee petrol car for the second vehicle. However, it is lower impact than the van was and not our main vehicle, so we are ok with it.

 girlymonkey 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mattc:

> Hi what van did you buy?

> Did you consider the London electric vehicle company van?  

> Its an electric van with a small petrol motor to charge the battery interesting idea. 

We got an e-NV200. 

Not heard if the London electric vehicle company, but there are various add on range extenders that you can buy. We are unlikely to bother though. Free chargers en route will be fine for us 🙂

 wintertree 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Also, batteries will get lighter and will hold more energy.  And EVs will probably improve on their current miles/kWh metric too - it's around 4m/kWH now and we can't be anywhere near maximising that

I don’t know.  

I’ve given the comparison to a bunch of runners before.  A Tesla model 3 full of adults goes 5x as fast as them besting it on foot, for a similar energy / mile.  

A nice little physics exercise for you - make a plot of the per mile kWh cost of rolling and wind resistance vs speed...  Rolling is close to practical limits for tyre based I think and wind resistance is close to theoretical best on some EVs.  The only big gains will come from lighter future batteries (less rolling resistance) and acceptance of narrow, 2-seat in line EVs, either 3-wheel or CMG balanced 2-wheelers - with much reduced forms of both drag.

 wbo2 09 Apr 2021
In reply to wintertree:re. Degradation... I'm driving a 5 year old leaf with >100,000km on it, and I've lost one of 12 bars so I'm heading for 10% Degradation.  That's pretty typical for the several leaf owners I know, and ditto the people with older Teslas.  Apart from 2013 leafs battery deg seems a bit of a bogeyman idea...

Yes I use it for winter climbing

Post edited at 18:14
 S Ramsay 09 Apr 2021
In reply to wintertree:

This sort of backing up your point, to get a better drag coefficient than a Tesla you start to have to make some pretty funky shapes. The Aptera car/trike gets about as close to a teardrop as a car can be resulting in a drag coefficient of 0.13 compared to a model 3's 0.23. It also has a much smaller frontal area, and only three wheels resulting in a claimed in a claimed energy usage of about 1/4 that of a model 3. And while I would happily drive one its clearly not a practical option for most people, I doubt that you will get a bouldering mat in the back of that let alone children, it will probably take a trad rack though

https://www.aptera.us/

 Hooo 09 Apr 2021
In reply to wbo2:

I don't know what Leaf you have but in a Leaf 30 you lose the first bar when the battery is 15% down.

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I guess that, by 12kWh being equivalent to a third of a gallon of fuel, you're talking energy content?  An EV will win on that measure because an electric motor is very efficient, whilst the ICE wastes most of its energy as heat.

Yes, the kWh is a (peculiar) energy unit. An electric motor is clearly much more efficient than an ICE: in your case of the figures you quote, equivalent to about 135 mpg. They have many other advantages: much simpler (one moving part); good torque over whole rpm range etc

> Also, batteries will get lighter and will hold more energy.  And EVs will probably improve on their current miles/kWh metric too - it's around 4m/kWH now and we can't be anywhere near maximising that.  I won't be surprised to see affordable 500 mile EVs soon.

Battery technology is going to be one of the most important developments in the next decade, coupled with greener and greener sources for the electrical energy.

In reply to mutt:

> I wasn't making the point myself, I was just reporting what other say, and yes there is a lot of greenwash about. But who can really say that not having a car is at all possible in this society we live in. I would be the first to give up my car if there were proper investment in green alternatives. Infact whenever I can I cycle to work and that at times has been 20miles each way, and taken the train, but our society is organised around the car no matter what the 'best' solution to this environmental catastrophe might be. I wish it were otherwise.

Sorry I was a bit grumpy when I replied to you. I have cut down car usage a lot but I do realise it's not possible for everybody. What I would say is for those of us whose drive infrequently ICE cars still have there place, whilst acknowledging that for those who do need to drive more EV's are a much better option environmentally.

I reckon the carbon footprint of battery production will fall and charging tech will improve, so by 2030 there'll be good EV options for all. 

Post edited at 22:17
 wintertree 09 Apr 2021
In reply to S Ramsay:

That thing looks like it’s drag coefficient would double if a couple of birds pooped on it.  Proper 3-wheeler configuration though with two at the front.  The 150 kW AWD version would be an absolute hoot to drive I reckon; worth having as a car regardless of the bit where it’s an EV...

I’ve been disappointed to see Morgan flounder and fail in their attempts to bring an EV 3-wheeler to market.

 Jamie Wakeham 09 Apr 2021
In reply to wintertree:

My background is cosmology, so I'm not much of an engineer (!) but the technology interests me.  It seems to me that our current crop of EVs are all more or less ICE cars adapted to take an EV drivetrain, so there'll be lots of poor aspects of design because of those ICE assumptions.  This is most marked in those cars (such as my Kia) where the same body shell has to accommodate EV, hybrid and ICE versions - they'll all be compromises.  Once we start designing EVs from scratch, and letting go of ICE designs, then there'll surely be gains to be made.  How well the consumer market might take to them, I don't know...

In reply to The New NickB:

Thanks all for the comments, as I stay it will be a few years before I buy, but I won’t be buying new (depreciation of a new car in the first year of ownership would just depress me, even if I can afford it). Hopefully, a few interesting options will emerge in the next 18 months. I quite like the Honda e, but not with the range it offers.

 wintertree 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> My background is cosmology, so I'm not much of an engineer (!) but the technology interests me.

Cosmology is fluid dynamics in disguise, and the drag is a simple term; F_d = κρAv² = drag coefficient × air density × cross sectional area × speed squared.

Plug in the numbers (all MKS units) for a Tesla Model 3 @ 70 mph 

F_D = 0.23 × 1.225 kg m^(-3) × 2.22 m^2 × (32.3 m s^(-1))²

F_D = 652.6 kg m s^(-2) = 652.6 N

Multiply the drag force by a distance travelled of one mile to get the energy used to fight atmospheric drag over a mile.

W = F_d × d 

W = 625.6 N x 1604 m = 1.046 MJ = 0.290 kWH

So, a model 3 going 70 mph has to burn 0.290 kWH/mile just to overcome air resistance.  That drops to 0.150 kWH/mile at 50 mph.

> Once we start designing EVs from scratch, and letting go of ICE designs, then there'll surely be gains to be made.  How well the consumer market might take to them, I don't know...

Not many gains left as the drag calculations above show.  The only big gains to energy/mile left available come from:

  • Reduced frontal area - unless we start driving in a horizontal prone position the only realistic way of reducing this much are two- or three-seater inline vehicles.  Every four person car with one or two people in it is pushing twice the required area through the air, literally doubling losses to air resistance.
  • Highly “melted” aerodynamic shapes like the vehicle S Ramsay linked above - but there is very limited scope for these unless dropping to a two-seat inline shape.
  • Tightly packed, autonomously driven drafting multi-vehicle configurations on busy roads where the cars pack together to share the work.
  • Narrow gauge tunnels with lots of cars maintaining larger separations but with co-moving air flow driven by the vehicles (Boring Company style tunnels) - a variant of drafting.

I think we are well in to diminishing returns now on economy, from basic physics.  The big gain is moving motorways from 70 mph to 50 mph.  Not a popular step however!

Edit: I agree though, most current EVs are adaptions of ICE; that’s painfully obvious with our Leaf.  Tesla is different and other manufacturers are moving to similar “Skateboard” patterns.  The real gain I think comes from a statistical approach unlocked but future autonomy; shared ownership schemes where millions of people pool cars and default to the smallest car they need; with cars arriving by themselves in advance when booked.  No more keeping a big heavy SUV for the 12 times a year you tow the horsebox, a small 2-seater inline for the second car commute and a low range, light EV for the first car school run + commute, with a big, long range hatchback for the occasional holiday.  This sort of thing could probably halve the number of cars in the country, also massively reducing the environmental cost of making things that spend 95% of their time idle.

Post edited at 23:13
 Baz P 10 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Given that we know phone lithium batteries etc do degrade substantially, are car batteries of different chemistry, or is something different done to how they are managed in software, given that we generally expect a phone to last 2-3 years, a laptop maybe 4-5 but a car well over 10?

I gave my 2007 Prius to my son in 2014 when I upgraded to a 2012 model. The old Prius has now done 190,000 and there is nothing to suggest that the battery is any different. My Prius is now nearly 10 years old and I’ve not noticed any change. Not scientific I know but real world experience. 
I’ve not looked into pure electric vehicles but on the subject of battery weight, have any manufacturers thought of making the batteries easily removable so that you could remove a section for short journeys and plug the rest in for the odd long journey?

In reply to wintertree:

> Cosmology is fluid dynamics in disguise, and the drag is a simple term; F_d = κρAv² = drag coefficient × air density × cross sectional area × speed squared.

Wow! Cosmology, fluid dynamics and drag all in the same sentence! Have you brought back the theory of the drag of the luminiferous ether?! Stokes' (the original expert on hydrodynamical drag) tried that, but Einstein's Special Relativity scotched that for good. Or do you consider the universe as some kind of "gas", or what?

Post edited at 00:59
In reply to jimtitt:

I'm sure someone will make something of that size soon, although the "minivan" shape has fallen out of fashion across the whole industry so probably not a priority.

Plenty of powerful Electric Pick up trucks in final stages of development in America with the grunt for towing but I'm never convinced these are ideal for British weather.

There are plenty of small and large changes we can all make to our lives to significantly lesson our pollution impact. To a large degree it is up to consumers to decide for themselves what is important. So far changing from a similar sized Ford Fusion (which someone else is now using) to a Leaf has not been an impediment to our lifestyle. 

 Pbob 07:37 Sat
In reply to The New NickB:

Just a thought. I've heard that half of the CO2 emissions from the lifetime of a bog standard car comes from the manufacturing process. If a large swathe of the population are moving to electric, does that suggest that there might be a glut of used but well maintained petrol/diesels out there looking for a good home? Has anyone done the maths? 

Another consideration is the tax question. At the moment, EVs are considerably cheaper to run. But the government used to get a good income from tax on fuels. With the move to EVs, the government is going to want to find a way to fill the hole. There's a good chance that there will be some form of new tax which might make EVs less frugal in the future.

Incidentally I'm a big fan of EV technology. I've installed EV charging points and I'm pushing for not just all-electric fleet cars at work, but also hybrid HGVs and all electric heavy plant.

In reply to Pbob:

I'd say road pricing is basically certain in some form.  The question is when, as I'd expect to promote change the fuel tax won't be reduced on ICE fuels to compensate, so if you stick with ICE you'll pay twice.

 girlymonkey 07:46 Sat
In reply to Pbob:

I'm sure people aren't scrapping functional vehicles. We had to go to 2 vehicles from one, so a second hand electric for us in that mix, and our old diesel van has gone to some friends who also need to go to a second vehicle due to work changes. They were going to buy a van anyway. So no new demand that wasn't already there. I presume most people will change when they would ordinarily be changing anyway.

Post edited at 07:47
 wintertree 08:21 Sat
 Si dH 09:17 Sat
In reply to wintertree:

> Cosmology is fluid dynamics in disguise, and the drag is a simple term; F_d = κρAv² = drag coefficient × air density × cross sectional area × speed squared.

You will be aware though that the drag coefficient is a very simple number to describe a very complex set of phenomena. A bit like r!

> Not many gains left as the drag calculations above show.  The only big gains to energy/mile left available come from:

> Reduced frontal area - unless we start driving in a horizontal prone position the only realistic way of reducing this much are two- or three-seater inline vehicles.  Every four person car with one or two people in it is pushing twice the required area through the air, literally doubling losses to air resistance.

I think a lot could be done to reduce drag. It would all be incremental benefits, but so is most aerodynamics. They can all add up.

- replacing wing mirrors with small cameras (the Honda e has done this.)

- reducing car height by reducing battery pack size (either accepting reduced range or using more energy dense batteries when available.) Alternatively by changing the shape of the battery pack shape so it is longer and thinner - I don't know how feasible this is.

- reducing car width and interior space significantly. Older cars were a lot smaller than today's.

- better optimising the overall shape. A longer vehicle would enable the designers to reduce form drag but I don't know the relative importance of friction drag for cars.

- reducing friction drag through improved surface treatment. This may be tiny gains?, buy I don't really believe paint is the optimum surface.

All these things come with downsides, some significant, for example to occupant or pedestrian safety. Tesla has I'm sure put a lot of investment in to optimising the Model 3 to what it thinks is the optimum design for society at this time, but this won't be unchanging. Society's perception of the downsides may change (eg as infrastructure makes range less of a concern, or more radically, in some utopia where we all driven autonomously, maybe the frequency of being involved in a car accident will be down to the frequency of being in a plane crash and we will accept much reduced safety features like crumple zones in exchange for better fuel economy.) Additionally, although Tesla may have used the latest methods to optimise their car, analysis of complex turbulent flow is still an evolving field and it's not easy to get right. Witness the difference in performance and approach between major F1 teams like Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull with the same constraints. Methods and outcomes will improve further in future.

(FWIW I'm in a similar position to New NickB wrt buying an electric car in a few years, but I'll never buy something that looks like an SUV, makes me sit a mile up in the sky or can't corner...)

In reply to wintertree:

Thanks for that - it's interesting, and I shouldn't have been lazy and left the working to you!

A real-world 70mph test of a model 3 averaged 4.25miles/kWh, so total work against resistances was 0.235kWh/mile.  Whilst this obviously says that the simple model of drag is wrong, it certainly suggests that we are already pushing right up against the limits of air resistance.  I had guessed that there'd be more to gain here.

I wonder if we'll begin to see more interesting layouts soon, with the aim of reducing drag.  Even the Model 3 is still built as if it had a transmission tunnel running down the middle, with two seats up front and three in the back, as does the Kia EV6, despite the fact that neither have ICE 'parent' vehicles.  

In reply to Pbob:

> Just a thought. I've heard that half of the CO2 emissions from the lifetime of a bog standard car comes from the manufacturing process.

This is a long-lived myth, propagated by ICE manufacturers.  The CO2 it takes to make the metal box is dwarfed by the CO2 emitted by the petrol you pour in and set fire to!

Link from earlier in the thread: https://www.transportenvironment.org/what-we-do/electric-cars/how-clean-are-electric-cars

Yes, taxation will inevitably need to change, and because it'll be very difficult to separate electricity you use to charge your car from the rest of your electrical consumption, just taxing the electricity would be pretty regressive, so some form of road pricing seems almost certain.

 wintertree 09:41 Sat
In reply to Si dH:

> You will be aware though that the drag coefficient is a very simple number to describe a very complex set of phenomena. A bit like r!

Indeed - I was suggesting to Jamie that an order of magnitude estimate with basic physics comes out very close to the real world energy usage, and so there isn't any room left for improvements other than tackling drag - as I'd said in the previous message:

"the only big gains will come from lighter future batteries (less rolling resistance) and acceptance of narrow, 2-seat in line EVs, either 3-wheel or CMG balanced 2-wheelers - with much reduced forms of both drag."

That pretty much covers what you list, apart from the electronic wing mirror cameras.  I think the only real gains left from shape come from changing the aspect ratio towards in-line configurations to reduce frontal area.

Autonomy could eventually reduce the size of cars by allowing for a lot of the safety features to be removed, being replaced software avoidance of crashes.  The occasional failure would then have much more horrific consequences though, so perhaps that's a retrograde step that'll never happen.  It also allows a fleet that's smaller on average by giving people access to the smallest car for their needs on any given day.

> Additionally, although Tesla may have used the latest methods to optimise their car, analysis of complex turbulent flow is still an evolving field and it's not easy to get right. Witness the difference in performance and approach between major F1 teams like Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull with the same constraints. Methods and outcomes will improve further in future.

Indeed, the absolute best single seater tech demonstrators have achieved around κ=0.05, about 1/4th that of the best road going vehicles.  Thats basically taking a streamlined body and sticking wheels on it and squeezing a small person in.   But people want cars to be a cube (boot space for a bike/kayak/whatever, space for 2 x 2 adults) with κ=1.05. Aerodynamics dictates a streamlined body) (an aircraft wing more or less) with κ=0.04.  That the Model 3 can get 2 x 2 adults in and a decent sized boot with κ=0.23 is impressive. I don't see that moving much below κ=0.18 whilst retaining a 2x2 layout.  It's interesting to look at the values for racing, production and. concept cars here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

Looks very clearly in to limiting returns at around κ= 0.2 for what consumers will actually buy, with blended shapes towards a streamlined body giving lower - then much lower - κ values for almost 70 years.  More and more money and supercomputer time is being spent on reducing κ for what consumers will actually buy and fewer gains are being made.  Perhaps something funky with segmented HV electrode plasmerisation and guidance of the boundary layer can eek a bit more out...  

 AJM 09:47 Sat
In reply to Jamie Wakeham or other eNiro owners:

What's the eNiro boot like versus bouldering pad sizes? I've currently got an Octavia estate which fits my two medium pads in the boot under the parcel shelf with a bit of space to spare - with 2 kids to also contend with I'm not sure something much smaller is practical as I often can't overflow into the back seats. The eNiro caught my eye a little while ago as looking bigger than some of the other common EVs, but I never really investigated how much bigger.

 wintertree 09:48 Sat
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Yes, the first order model comes out worse than the car, so it's clearly not appropriate.  Unless the test had a tail wind or I made a maths error...!  But it's a good exercise for getting a feel for the numbers.

> Even the Model 3 is still built as if it had a transmission tunnel running down the middle, 

The Leaf has one.  I think they're addicted to it as a cable run and a structural torsion resistant element of the sub frames...?

> I wonder if we'll begin to see more interesting layouts soon, with the aim of reducing drag.

It's worth looking at the drag coefficients and linked photos of concept cars going back to the  1950s in the link I posted to Si dH (above).    Especially look at the Fiat Turbina.  The message is very clear on shapes and drag, and has been for 70 years, but it doesn't sell.  I think it's more of a marketing exercise than an engineering one, although as you note the freedom brought by a ground-up EV design could help; if you can squeeze more useable and comfortable space out of a low drag shape, people people will be more minded to change their convention on looks...

In reply to wintertree:

Sadly the infastructure is just not there yet unless you never travel more than 200miles in one go, waiting over an hour for your car to charge up is rubbish.

I have a tesla and their charging structure means I can travel all over the country just as quickly as a normal petrol car for a quarter of the cost, as an example, stop at Tesla Supercharger-Plug in- go for a wee - but a coffee - walk back to the car and I have a 5 minute wait and then 200 extra miles in the tank.

Public charger experience: Stop at charger - Plug in - fails to identify my credit card - download another app - sign up- credit card info in- (desperate for a pee at this point) - start charge - error with charger - move to next charger - plug in - use the app - car starts charging at a 1/3rate of a Tesla supercharger - run for a wee and coffee - back to car - I now have an extra 50 miles and I've been at the service station for 25 minutes -  wait another 45 mins - 200 miles and I'm off........................

Public superchargers are on their way in two years I can see this not being the case.

I nearly spent £80K! on an electric Jaguar, I'm so glad I didn't. Tesla all the way

 wintertree 10:09 Sat
In reply to griffer boy:

I’ve ranted at length about public charging before - and noted up thread that it limits us as Leaf drivers in the north.  I’m hiring a Model 3 for a week whilst our second car diesel goes in for some work, so I look forward to trying their charging network...

In reply to griffer boy:

Also regarding real world range:

I believe if you had a model 3 with a 300 mile range and drove down the motorway at 85mph your range would only be 180 miles, obviously this is from a friend as I only travel at 70MPH and then can travel for 220miles at 70pmh with the heating on and music at full volume.

I'm never going to buy another ICE vehicle

In reply to AJM:

I've just nipped out with a tape measure.  Width between the wheel arches is about 108cm.  Depth with the back seats raised is 70cm; with them down it's about 165cm.  Height is 80cm.  So it's not cavernous.

 AJM 10:32 Sat
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Thanks! I think my larger mat is 100x75 when halved, which means it's either too small or right on the brink depending on how accurate my memory is!

 jimtitt 10:44 Sat
In reply to Neston Climber:

> I'm sure someone will make something of that size soon, although the "minivan" shape has fallen out of fashion across the whole industry so probably not a priority.

> Plenty of powerful Electric Pick up trucks in final stages of development in America with the grunt for towing but I'm never convinced these are ideal for British weather.

A typical US pickup towing something, I dread to think!

The only reasonable fit to some of my criteria would be a Model X, apart from those stupid doors so you can't fit a roofrack, the €100.000 + price and the loadspace is too small the towing consumption is ridiculous. 40-60kW/hr means it costs more to run than my current car and journey times about 40% longer due to the charging stops.

In reply to griffer boy:

My experience with the midlands and SW parts of the Ecotricity network seems to have been better than most.  In four years of driving from Oxford to Peak / Lakes/ Wales / Cornwall in my Outlander, I can recall four occasions when a charger was either busy or out of action.  Maybe I've just been lucky!

In reply to AJM

Have a look at the MG5 Estate , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doo6UWrOaFs&

Not the most sexy car out there, or the most advanced but the first eV to use the tried and tested Estate body. Very reasonably priced too (compared to other EV's).

Again I would say that having a range under 200 miles should not completely put people off, the rapid public chargers are really not as bad as people are saying. After you have used one once you can get charging very quickly and we are yet to have a failure. There are new ones being added every day, and a quick look at the brilliant Zap Map database should reassure you that there is now good provision on the roads in and out of the regular climbing areas. 

 mutt 11:23 Sat
In reply to griffer boy:

> I have a tesla and their charging structure means I can travel all over the country just as quickly as a normal petrol car 

I'm curious, how often do you do that - i.e. travel all over the country which I guess means on journeys > 300 miles?

Its not part of my life but I do also have a campervan that means I can travel countrywide at a slower pace, which suites me. I remember in my youth peers would think nothing of driving to the alps for a long weekend. I guess that is  not going to be an option in an EV (other than a tesla) for some time to come. 

In reply to Hooo:

> As a Leaf owner I can say that battery degradation can be a real problem with some cars. Mine's down 15% after 40k miles.


I have been looking at going electric and one important factor to consider is how well the temperature of the battery is controlled, as this significantly affects battery life. The Leaf - surprisingly - has no active thermal management system, other than that effected via the charging system. (I.e. it limits the charging rate when it senses the battery is getting too hot.) Most other EV's have a dedicated cooling / heating system. The Zoe uses the car's air conditioning system to also manage the temperature of the battery, and many others have liquid cooled / heated batteries.

Another factor to consider is that most EV's are not type-approved for towing, so this cannot be done legally. Also, the fitting or roof racks is 'prohibited' by many manufacturers (including Renault for the Zoe) so whilst some racks are becoming available for cars like the Zoe, this would have to be done on an 'at your own risk' basis.

In reply to mutt:

I do a 300+ trip once every two weeks

 Tom V 11:38 Sat
In reply to wintertree:

Saw my first Polestar 2 this week. Definitely has the edge on any Tesla for looks........

In reply to Neston Climber:

Sorry to be negative but I now have 15 different apps on my phone and I have an issue with a public charger once a month, out of action, silly slow charge rates or ICED. I even stopped at a service station on the M5 only to find they had no EV chargers of any description................, this is 2021!!!

In the last month I've been in Newcastle/London/Portsmouth/Hull/Bristol and Leeds so I'm getting a good national picture.

I charge at home for 80% of the time and thats awesome. Works every time.

2 years and EV public chargers will be much better and probably better than the Tesla charging system, but currently if you rely on arriving on time, you cant rely on the public system

In reply to wintertree:

I ran a large chunk of research programmes with Lotus (electric Elise, Exige etc), and used to stay in a hotel which was well used by their research partners on visits. I was in the bar chatting to a couple of JLR engineers about what we were doing and how it was going on the track, when the they stopped the conversation dead....”our customers don’t really care about aerodynamics” 😂😂😂

 mutt 12:44 Sat
In reply to Tom V:

> Saw my first Polestar 2 this week. Definitely has the edge on any Tesla for looks........

that's a bit depressing given that what we attribute as 'good' looks is entirely divorced from drag coefficients. How many people buy SUV's for their association with the landed gentry? quite a few I guess. The Polestar is definitely of the that variety. At some point we are going to start realising that large batteries are totally equivalent to ICE engine capacity. Its a number that people seek to maximise despite it having no value to most, and an environmental cost to all, but worn as badge of success.

 Tom V 13:26 Sat
In reply to mutt:

I'm not sure if you think that the Polestar looks like an SUV but it didn't to me: just a smart looking largeish hatch/coupe with a slightly higher stance.

Its drag coefficient is 0.278 which isn't class leading but its a long way removed from Range Rover figures.

Post edited at 13:39
 Hooo 13:29 Sat
In reply to griffer boy:

My experience too. If you're in a good area and you sign up to the right providers and you use the same places regularly then public charging can be fine. If you often go to new places and have to find them / sign up to a new provider etc. then it becomes a PITA.

Anyone saying that public charging is no problem should download the BP Pulse app and try and get a charge out of one of their units. They'll soon change their tune.

I'm all for promoting EVs, but we need to be realistic otherwise people will be disillusioned when they get one and find out the reality. And the reality is that in many areas public charging is a joke.

 wintertree 13:44 Sat
In reply to Hooo:

> Anyone saying that public charging is no problem should download the BP Pulse app and try and get a charge out of one of their units. They'll soon change their tune.

It’s fascinating how much different people’s experience differs; comes up on every UKC thread on the subject.  Different networks and areas I suppose.  

In reply to wintertree:

It must vary wildly.  People slate Ecotricity, but I've had a very good experience with them - but I only really visit about six or so spots regularly.

Why in the name of all that is holy there's not just one network serving the whole of the UK, I cannot say.

 Hooo 13:52 Sat
In reply to wintertree:

Have you ever used BP Pulse (previously known as Polar)? On SpeakEV opinions are pretty unanimous on that one. Ditto Ecotricity, although I've not had to try that one myself yet.

 wintertree 14:10 Sat
In reply to Hooo & Jamie Wakeham:

It's mostly "Charge You Car" around here.  The worst experience was a charge post in Hexham that didn't charge the car, and that I couldn't connect to from the App to close the session down to release it's end of our charge cable.  The operator couldn't remote reset it as it had dropped offline, and they couldn't get someone out for days, so we left our expensive charge cable wrapped up in bags in the rain attached to the post, and I had to go back a week later to retrieve it.   Then when I started the car, the EV systems warning light came on and it wouldn't go over 5 mph.  Thankfully a reset cleared whatever the hell had gone wrong.

We've had a couple of successes with Pod Point and I've come to trust Hubsta.  

A key step to reducing faff and problems seems to be getting an RFID tag for the posts and not trying to use the phone apps.

I haven't tried BP Pulse or Ecotricity.

> Why in the name of all that is holy there's not just one network serving the whole of the UK, I cannot say.

Emergent regional networks scaling up in the pre-mergers phase.  Long ago the country had many different regional power grids; eventually they became synchronised and connected.  

What pisses me off is not so much the different networks but the obsession with mobile phone apps instead of just contactless card payments, and the lack of integrated vehicle billing.  Part of the appeal with Tesla is that their network "just works" - you plug the car in, and the post and the car talk to each other and sort out billing.  I gather this is coming as legislation in veracious jurisdictions for all EVs at some point soon.

In reply to wintertree:

> The worst experience was a charge post in Hexham that didn't charge the car, and that I couldn't connect to from the App to close the session down to release it's end of our charge cable.  The operator couldn't remote reset it as it had dropped offline, and they couldn't get someone out for days, so we left our expensive charge cable wrapped up in bags in the rain attached to the post, and I had to go back a week later to retrieve it.   Then when I started the car, the EV systems warning light came on and it wouldn't go over 5 mph.  Thankfully a reset cleared whatever the hell had gone wrong.

That sounds... less than satisfactory.

I've always liked the charge point in the supermarket in Kendal, from InstaVolt.  Just flash your credit card and off you go.  I wonder if Booths realise just how much of my custom they've won over the last few years from having that charger there?

 wintertree 14:23 Sat
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> That sounds... less than satisfactory.

The drive home got me wondering what the EV equivalent was to running on fumes.  I wondered if we should stop at the top of hills to load the car up up rocks and take them out at the bottom to get a bit more power, turns out that makes a marginal difference...

> I've always liked the charge point in the supermarket in Kendal, from InstaVolt.  Just flash your credit card and off you go.  

What a radical idea! I didn't know any of the networks actually did that. 

I shall have to try an InstaVolt - that sounds very useful.  We've booked a holiday this summer in Northumberland and charging will be a logistics problem; there's an Instavolt rapid charger north of Morpeth we can try...

 Hooo 14:25 Sat
In reply to wintertree:

> It's mostly "Charge You Car" around here. 

I've tried them twice. Both times I plugged in and started charging fine, went to the shops. Came back a few hours later to find that it had stopped charging after 5 minutes. I've now got into the habit of using the Nissan app to check after an hour to see if it's still charging - but as you will know, using the Nissan app is a tedious experience.

As for being unable to end a charge and release my cable, BP Pulse do this every single time. It takes between 5 and 15 minutes on the phone to get my cable released every time I use them. At least with the BP Pulse rapid chargers there is an emergency stop button, so I can just press that to end charge and release the cable.

At least I have never had to abandon my cable though. I think I would be tempted to take my tools to the charging station first.

 Hooo 14:27 Sat
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I've always liked the charge point in the supermarket in Kendal, from InstaVolt.  Just flash your credit card and off you go.  I wonder if Booths realise just how much of my custom they've won over the last few years from having that charger there?

That's how it should be. Every rapid charger I've ever used has had a contactless terminal attached to it. Not one of them has worked. It's a joke.

In reply to Hooo:

> As for being unable to end a charge and release my cable

Ah, that’s indirectly answered a curiosity question I had in mind for years - what’s to stop anyone just pulling out the cable! I was partly thinking if someone was in a hurry and no driver about doing it so they could charge instead, but could also be “lads having a laugh”!

Post edited at 16:27
 Wicamoi 20:47 Sat
In reply to AJM:

The eNiro boot just fits an Ocun Dominator or a DMM Highball but, because the boot space tapers upwards (front to back), not both at the same time.

In reply to Wicamoi:

Before buying a car last year (2nd hand), I took the bouldering mat to Fords of Winsford and checked how it would fit in various cars that I might be interested in - felt a bit weird hoiking a mat around their premises but they didn't bat an eyelid (also the mat was similar size to my dad's walker so it gave a good measure of that).

Ultimately I ended up buying from FoW, not because of my previous visits (they just happened to have right car at ok price), but their no-hassle, happy to accommodate the customer attitude didn't do them any harm. 

In reply to Hooo:

Not had the pleasure of trying BP pulse yet, will have to seek one out to find out how my luck holds.

Ecotricity has worked every time for me on CHadamo but as the owner admitted in a recent interview the older units are not the best for CCS. Tues out the standard cabel does not yet have standard software across all manufacturers. Ecotricity is rolling out new units nationwide with 2x CCS and debit card tap and pay so fingers crossed the picture improves for all users at service stations over this yea.  

In reply to Neston Climber: From my experience:

InstaVolt Awesome always works and good charge rate

Charge your Car 90% of the time works and good charge rate, even free in some parts of the world Northumberland and Scotland

Ionic InstaVolt Awesome always works and good charge rate 200KW but at 69p per KW very expensive

Ecotricity 75% of units work and tend to only give 35KW rather than 50KW

BP/Polar I actively avoid these as the needs resets have issues with charge rate

In reply to The New NickB:

So to add a single data point: I just drove my e-Niro 99.4 miles, Oxford -> Cheltenham and back. I began with the SoC at 100% and the guessometer reading 253 miles.  It was a very mixed journey - I'd guess the average speed to have been about 50mph but there were some long stretches of 60mph and a bit of 70mph.  Some use of the heater in the earlier part of the trip, no AC. 

I got back with 67% and 167 miles.  If we treat the SoC as being perfectly correct, then that suggests total range would be 301 miles.

 lithos 11:32 Wed
In reply to AJM:

why not just buy a new bouldering mat(s) that does fit, if such a thing exists. In the grand scheme of things 150 odd quid aint that much (and NEW TOYS) 

 MeMeMe 12:08 Wed
In reply to griffer boy:

> Sorry to be negative but I now have 15 different apps on my phone and I have an issue with a public charger once a month, out of action, silly slow charge rates or ICED. I even stopped at a service station on the M5 only to find they had no EV chargers of any description................, this is 2021!!!

> In the last month I've been in Newcastle/London/Portsmouth/Hull/Bristol and Leeds so I'm getting a good national picture.

> I charge at home for 80% of the time and thats awesome. Works every time.

> 2 years and EV public chargers will be much better and probably better than the Tesla charging system, but currently if you rely on arriving on time, you cant rely on the public system

Our experience is similar. There's no overall system for using a charger or even finding a charger because the infrastructure is all run by a bunch of competing private companies. This makes it a huge pain to use. I'm not convinced it'll be much better in 2 years!

When we took a trip up to Scotland we found the charging infrastructure to be much better as most of the chargers were under one system - https://chargeplacescotland.org.

I'd love the chargers in England to at least have an overall system for finding them and paying for them even if they were still owned by private companies.

 AJM 13:12 Wed
In reply to lithos:

From one angle that's a fair challenge - if the solution was to get a slightly different boulder pad and then two would fit with other stuff, then a new pad would be a small price to pay.

But from wicamoi's post, it sounds like you can't fit two medium sized pads in it which starts to feel like more of a fundamental difference in boot size - it's more than merely a tweak of exactly which pads at that point.

 John2 13:40 Wed
In reply to nathan79:

'I may just have to wait for the electric Skoda Octavia estate'

The Skoda Enyaq looks pretty close. It costs a lot more than the Skoda Octavia hybrid though. 

 wintertree 13:56 Wed
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> guessometer

XKCD nearly called it years ago - https://xkcd.com/612/

 Si dH 14:15 Wed
In reply to AJM:

Two pads?? I used to be able to get four in my Octavia boot with the seats in place :D 

Admittedly no longer with the extra large petzl pad though, I have to put half the back seat down. Still take three or four everywhere in the UK though.

Post edited at 14:16
 AJM 14:26 Wed
In reply to Si dH:

My two medium size ones (the Snap and the medium Moon, plus the little foot pad) lie flat under the parcel shelf, with a rucksack-width space in front of it. I can see how you could fit more if you abandoned the space in front, stacked vertically, packed higher etc.


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