UKH

Whilst I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories such as the deliberate development of Covid 19 as a biological weapon, I do believe that China has a lot to answer for such as the manner in which it attempted to suppress information about the outbreak of the virus. Along with other question: human rights, Tibet, Hong Kong, treatment of animals...

It's unfortunate that we have sleep walked into being beholden to China in terms of trade and consumer goods.

Yes, there are other countries whose records are far from exemplary but concentrating on China will anyone be reconsidering their views on China?

youtube.com/watch?v=6zkL91LzCMc&

Just you wait - they are just sharpening their pitchforks. Making sure the floor is covered by the Guardian first.

It's complicated but my general view is that we won't get anywhere by backing them into a corner.

And the more blatant scapegoating and distraction we get from Trump, the more reasonable they look. 

I much prefer China over plastic plates - though the former smash easily - and porcelain is nice

China is rapidly improving in most respects. They have a problem with their population wanting Hong Kong freedoms.  But if they successfully destroy those, it will be obvious, and the rest of the world will still be there.   Greater integration with the outside world will create more pressure for further change.  Isolation like the USSR or North Korea would be their only way to reduce it.

We have much to gain by engaging with them and purchasing cheap goods, until prices eventually rise to equal our own.

We have in effect 3 global blocks- Europe, China and the USA. Then there are the also rans- Japan, Aus/NZ, India, Canada and so on.Most of those are aligning themselves with the USA ( India playing both, but there have been some recent troop movements between the 2 which is of concern).

Unfortunately by opting out of the EU we have effectively linked ourselves with the USA. But EU also has an issue- does it align it self with the USA ? EU has become very concerned about China's influence which is pretty aggressive.Sweden and China for example are no longer on speaking terms as Sweden has stood upto China on th esubjetc of free speech etc.

Localisation is going to be an issue as Covid has kicked globalistaion backwards.

Hong Kong and what is happening there is not good. Do we think that the 300,000 Hong Kong people who have UK passports and dual nationality should be allowed to move here? The answer in my view is....yes.

A complicated picture. But the days of China being a benign power have long gone.It is going to get messy and we need nerves of steel.

I feel less inclined to buy goods from China now.  Although this will be almost impossible I do think we, as a country, should be weaning ourselves off such a high level of dependency and I am willing to make an effort and pay more to facilitate this.  It's a bit late now but we should never have let ourselves get into such a position. 

It's not just the COVID-19 issue that bothers me it's also their record on human rights and, the final straw, what they are currently attempting to do in Hong Kong. I have similar doubts about trading with Saudi Arabia as well but that's harder for me to influence at a personal level.

Al

That was the claim made 20 or so years back. It hasnt exactly worked.

The other day i had a couple of days work and had a situation which reminded me of the China/Trump/Covid thingy.

After work we popped into the bathroom to wash our hands, and as usual the tap water was fit-to-brew-tea scalding. I said to my colleague "Careful mate, the water is freaking hot". He said 'Yeah sure', hit the taps and stuck both hand right in, and immediately jumped. "Feck me, i just burned my hands!". "Told you it was hot". "Yeah, but you didn't tell me it was, like, proper hot..."

The production of components and production in China is so interwoven into our western systems it would take decades to replace and likely triple the cost of most goods we buy. Given the level of debt most countries are accruing and the recession, this isn't even an option. The best we can hope for is to steer China, but they know that they have the west by the short and curlies in all respects. They are just biding their time. In less than 50 years they'll control the world in such a way it will make the USA at it's peak look like amateurs. 

The bigger problems is which USA president is in office when the Chinese navy starts up the stakes in surrounding territories. Will China takeover as the new super power with or without war. 

The 'CCP' is a sinister party, which will kill and jail and abuse human rights, and stop at nothing for it's own survival.

For example, there's a 99% conviction rate in China, and the Falun Gong practitioners only started to be persecuted (including organ harvesting) because one guy wanted to create a name for himself within the party (for his own political survival), now that it's been going on for 20 years circa, the CCP can't investigate what's been happening and concede that even some of it was wrong, because that would be to admit to mistakes. That's the tone surrounding everything they do in China. 

The current leader of the CCP has actually closed down what 'freeness' Chinese people were starting to feel (perceive).

"> The production of components and production in China is so interwoven into our western systems it would take decades to replace and likely triple the cost of most goods we buy."

Production is moving to other countries with lower wages and production costs now, so not really

"...................The best we can hope for is to steer China, but they know that they have the west by the short and curlies in all respects."

Not really

"They are just biding their time. In less than 50 years they'll control the world in such a way it will make the USA at it's peak look like amateurs."

50 years? That's a very, very long time to be making a prediction

On the contrary.  China now is almost unrecognisable from how it was 20 years ago.  It's getting on for 10 years since I was last there, but even then Shanghai was pretty international with a lot of signage in English.  It's much more so now. 

The Chinese need no lessons in capitalism, and they now have a middle class larger than the total population of the US.  They have a totalitarian one-party political system but no problems with people getting rich - and rich people tend to want international trade and technology. 

youtube.com/watch?v=ZNToejXy-D4&

"That was the claim made 20 or so years back. It hasnt exactly worked."

Do you think isolation,  sanctions,  or  military threats will work  ?

I get the impression, they you are falling into a trap. Trump is looking for scapegoats. China is being portrayed as the bad man, to take pressure from Trump and his appalling response to COVID.

The time to onshore and reduce trade with China was years ago. We didn't do it. The reason is because it is cheaper, and there are large profits to be made. People were happy to watch stock prices rise in the good times, but are happy to shoot the golden goose in the bad. China owns huge amounts of US debt, they have industrial projects in many, many other countries (Hinkley point as an example.)

China has some horrible practices, but then again so does the US. No one comes out of this smelling of roses, if you compare one with the other.

So in answer to your question, should we reconsider our view of China?

Yes. It needs to be over a longer term and a well thought out response. Not simply because an orange bloke is failing at an election. Or, indeed, because we're eager to sell our soul in order to get a brexit trade deal with someone, anyone, at any price.

But who do you think owns half these companies and their tech? So many western companies when struggling have been bought out in part or fully by China. 

Yeah. 10-20 years is likely more realistic. 

Think of everything in the chain between us messaging on this forum, the phone, router, masts, power generation... or the raw materials such as the rare earth metals etc.  China has its fingers in every pie. 

Add in it's belt and bridges project, it's financially tied to many insolvent Mediterranean nations. It has vast influence in many African nations that have key raw materials. 

No. But reducing our dependence on them and being very aware of their medium/long terms goals is.

The trick is to respect but not get into bed with them so to speak. Do not become financially dependent on them.Make sure you stand up to your countrys values. and do not back down.

And as for the South China sea, keep sending our navy through those international waters.

The CCP has always been deeply sinister, Trump is only being slow on the uptake.

Seriously, I'm something of a hand wringing liberal who likes to try and see the best and the good in everybody, the CCP is an awful party.

I don't think we disagree.   Doing business with China does not mean dependence.

OK, good points - I like your mentions of "raw materials such as the rare earth metals etc..... China has its fingers in every pie.... belt and bridges project.... African nations that have key raw materials"

Longer term once a more established and broader middle class it makes sense to offshore their production to Africa for the cheap labour, China is playing the long game, our free for all neoliberal party is going to wake up with the mother of all hubristic hangovers and we’re all going to realise we’ve been living of the family silver ware for the last fifty years and there’s nothing left to pawn.

Not to mention that China could be the only major economy in a position to lend money to bail us (and any major country affected similarly) out over Covid. Worth a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_recession

Rare earths more complicated as there are other countries including the USA who have them, it is just that China mines them at low cost. There again China relies heavility on Aus for coal etc and also Middle East for oil ( oil is one of the reasons why China is " capturing" ownership of the South China Seas.

The concept of China having a Bule Water navy is concerning as we would not like a Chinese aircraft carrier trundling up the English channel for example.It is bad enough with the Russians.

I don't disagree. But I don't think the US is a glowing example, whcih can be used as a benchmark. Both countries fail in many areas and for many different reasons. Saying China bad, America good is missing the point. It is a discussion that has been brought the fore by a failed president, as a distraction technique.

If you want to blame countries for outbreaks of disease, then lets sue Congo for the financial damage from Aids and Ebola. If you want to blame a government for suppressing information about a disease, you only have to google Trump and his COVID quotes. Or the removal of doctors, or framing others for his failures.

As I said neither comes out smelling of roses.

If one wanted a solution, rather than a polemic; investing in ESG companies would be better all round than a simplistic black / white choice.

I agree. We are far too dependent on criminally abusive cheap labour, Chinese rip off products and Chinese cash to fund our infrastructure. 

We welcomed them into the WTO and other organizations believing they would play by the rules but instead the CCP have sought to break the effectiveness of these organisations and repurpose them to their ends. 

Unfortunately the US Presidential Moron is is leading the fight back in the same wrongheaded way he has tackled every issue of his presidency. He's completely missed both the point and direction and plotted his own course to disaster. 

what I think is that we will be aiming for lots of trade with China so we don't have to trade with the nasty EU that is so far from the standards we uphold and expect in Britain.  Those values will be found in China and any other trading partners and HM Govt will act in our best interests

Yes of course, Trump likely is scapegoating China, and he happens to be right about the CCP being awful too. It's a country in which human rights and freedom of speech simply don't exist, in a full stop/nada/not a sausage sense. The CCP has the final say and can do what it likes, and it chooses to all the time to squash dissent and maintain it's grip.

That's the reality of China whatever else is going on - there's 'different strands' to reality you might say - which exist next to one another.

In their eyes it is not criminally cheap Labour it has dragged them from an agrarian economy to a powerhouse and moved a lot of people out of abject poverty. 
 

Ripping off other people’s knowledge has been around for hundreds of years. 

I think it's too late. There is significant dependency already - just for everyday things. It's v hard to ignore a supplier who proposes the products you want 10% cheaper than an 'ethical' or local source. How many people are aware Amazon is unethical - in tax evasion - yet still purchase there ? I suspect very many.

Anyway, quite apart from everyday goods the western world favours China for it's drug testing / disease research services because they have good supplies of cheap primates - monkeys.  And even more topical evidence has come out over virus research collusion between USA & China right up to the pandemic.

https://www.gmwatch.org/en/news/latest-news/19403-wuhan-and-us-scientists-u...?

We watched a docu last week - confinement and re-education of the muslim Uyghur people. It all starts with deep surveillance using facial recognition along with other digital means to keep people in order. It's lockdown of a different kind - to have your every word and move recorded and analysed. Even decision making over 'offenders' has been automated to such an extent as to allow selection en masse. The whole business is really ugly. 

A telling reminder for western nations to refuse this level of surveillance - which has been proposed 'reasonable' by some authorities subsequent to terrorist activity. 

Pots and kettles.

Stealing is acceptable when you don't have much to be stolen. Regardless of if you're a nation or a rich industrialist, you will use whatever you have to protect your wealth once you have accrued it. Armies, laws and tariffs are tools that have always been available to protect wealth.

"Long before the United States began accusing other countries of stealing ideas, the U.S. government encouraged intellectual piracy to catch up with England’s technological advances. " ... “the United States emerged as the world's industrial leader by illicitly appropriating mechanical and scientific innovations from Europe.”

https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-europe

Federal and state officials across the country have altered or hidden public health data crucial to tracking the coronavirus' spread, hindering the ability to detect a surge of infections as President Donald Trump pushes the nation to reopen rapidly.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/27/bad-state-coronavirus-data-trump-r...

I seem to have spent far too much time wittering on here. I'm sure there was a point to be made about lies, dam lies and right wing propaganda. I find it interesting that American memes, spread for political gain, have become a general point of conversation.

Science is just a bunch of theories and not actual facts. Therefore all theories have equal weight. (Regardless of if they've just been made up for political gain.)

And Japan copied USA technolgy post 1945 and so on.And the French and Germanns etc copied Uk industrizl technology at the time of the industrail revolution.It really is nothing new.

The situation with the Uyghur people and what has happened in Tibet is horrendous.

Hong Kong next.....

Good news . Raab has agreed to extend visa rights on Hong Kong citizens with joint British passports if China imposes the security laws.

This Chinese university student with Chinese parents in China, arranged a memorial event in America for the Tiananmen Square massacre, with the plan to hold it in America and arranged it on twitter and facebook, and the CCP contacted his parents in China who contacted him and asked him to remove it. 

youtube.com/watch?v=PSuTV8f4emg&

This is standard practice for the CCP where Chinese citizens are overseas with relatives still in China, they go after people's family members if a Chinese citizen does something which displeases the CCP and goes against their party line.

The CCP is like a malignant narcissist who can't take the tiniest bit of criticism or mention of it's mistakes. 

Chinese citizens can have no escape.

Don't forget about Taiwan,computer hacking, intellectual property theft and the appalling treatment of the Uigher muslims, oh, and the little matter of their shenanigans in the South China Sea.

To add to that the support of the Burmese government who are persecuting the Rohinga Muslims. 

The list goes on and on!

Biggest armourer of armies in Africa - including during conflicts. 

I think the way Trump pronounces it is hilarious.

The tories have explained to us that there were too many immigrants, that the reason for brexit and to slam the door in the face of EU citizens was to make the immigration system « fair », did everything possible to take as few refugees as possible from places that are suffering vastly more urgent situation than HK.

But when it comes to do America’s war against China no problem they open the door to 3m people from HK...

I am in favour of letting them come to the U.K. nevertheless but this really shows how corrupt this government has been in using immigration for their own political benefit.

Good article - from politico. here's another quote which shows the way politics are working in America. ( and in the UK ??! )

// But within the Trump administration, some officials aren’t merely ignoring the warning signs. They’re also selectively using scientific advice and models in their quest for a swift reopening. //

The article goes on to discuss "deaths of despair' - which in other articles are estimated to rival covid-19 mortality:

USA mortality covid-19 : 90,000  contra ...  USA 'deaths of despair' 75,000

The science of lockdown is failure - beyond doubt.

Some good points here. I would add that most people here have a concept of China as a source of cheap products built on low wages when in fact China is the source of a third of the world’s spending on luxury goods. There is a huge middle class working in tech and engineering for example. The cheap labour is now in Vietnam and other Asean (not Asian) nations where Chinese companies have established a strong presence.

This is clearly a fallacy. Developed nations have been borrowing on a gigantic scale in orderly debt markets since the Covid lockdown began. The biggest buyers of bonds aren’t other nations. It’s institutional investors like the Japanese pension fund that buy government debt, which has been swallowed with alacrity as the broad sweep of negative interest rates testify.

Counterintuitively, if lenders are paying for the privilege, then there is no shortage of lenders.

I think China is great and I love their affordable products.

The way they clamped down on this cv outbreak was amazing in fact the WHO said it was the best in history and an example for us all to follow. 

HK riots are American/British imperialism in action, just another CIA/MI6 destabilisation program using the same old tried and tested methods they have used so well from Venezuela to Bulgaria and from Syria to Serbia and if people can't see that by now then they never will.

I was a member of the Free Tibet Society for many years back around 1998 as I was(and still am) a big fan of Mahayana Buddhism and the Dalai Lama was its head. I've grown up a bit since then and realized that if China had not taken Tibet in October 1950 the USA would have and in fact it was rushed as a reaction to the US invasion of NK on September 1950 then MacArthur's and Truman's stated desire to drop nuclear bombs on China, up to 35 if MacArthur's got his way.

Chinese treatment of animals in certain cases is as bad as our boiling lobsters alive, hunting foxes with hounds, poisoning rats and squirrels etc never mind battery hens.

I say thank god for China and a Marxist-Leninist party ruling the second largest economy in the world is fantastic.

I’m curious - how would the US have invaded Tibet?

Do you not think the luxury goods are still cheap products (not low quality ) compared to other countries  ?

Or why?

Would you rather live in North Korea or South Korea  ?

It must be horrible for you, forced to lived in a western democratic nation, struggling on with a relatively high standard of living, free speech and so on. If only you were able to leave and live some where that you found more agreeable like China etc.. 

Please explain this further, in a great deal of detail. Thank you very much

I am a China and Hong Kong expert

I look forward to your explanation

You've misunderstood my point. It's the source of the spending, not of the goods!

You seem to conveniently overlook the Sino-British agreement about the future of Hong Kong which your friends in Beijing have effectively torn up

Yes, I did completely misunderstand your post.

I do have a concept of China as a source of good value products built on low wages and don't see that as at odds with a lot of spending power and very wealthy people.  (It's not even pretend communism.)

I didn't mean invade as in start a war there I meant do what the US did throughout the 50s,60s and 70s to developing nations it wanted control over ie. Send an intelligence agent there with a briefcase full of money and a revolver then ask the leader to choose.

And one way or another you have a puppet in place (preferably non democratic), a vassel state you have complete control over, can pick and choose what resources you want, have another vote for you at the UN, give huge development loans to that funds your major corporations and in the case of say Tibet you would also be able to stick a few permanent divisions in huge new military bases there that you would build to consolidate your position and even get to plant your missile systems right on your target country's borders giving you first strike advantage making a possible nuclear war scenario winnable.

Just like USA /NATO wants in Ukraine. 

They haven't clamped down on covid19, they've clamped down on information getting out and controlled the official narrative for the outside world to hear (look into the silencing and jailing of medical people who raised the alarm internally), and they've had a second large spike of deaths in Northern China. 

They're not a Marxist party, they're a capitalist - one party rules - authoritarian party. 

So what? What business is it of Britains? It is in China not a stolen part of some country on the other side of the world anymore. 

DPRK if I was Korean. 

So you think that people can make "agreements" but then totally disregard them when it suits them. Germany tried that in 1938/39.

According to WHO you are very mistaken. 

Meanwhile Johnson the little dictator stops his medical top brass from even speaking-

 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/28/boris-johnson-sacrifices-t...

And what is the total death rate from cv in a country of over 1 billion people compared to our little dictatorship of the rich? 

Didn't Marx say a country should go through a capitalist development phase before it could properly move to the next stage which is socialism? That is the Chinese method, well one of them. 

Britain stole HK using military force and starting 2 wars there that killed a lot of Chinese, so it was obtained through the right of arms and not a gentlemanly agreement. Now those who used force in the first place can no longer do so yet they expect gentlemanly behavior back. 

Talk about shameless! We are lucky China don't tell us to eff off and mind our own business..... for once. 

You really are getting your knickers in a twist about which agreement relates to Hong Kong NOW.

UK and China signed a joint declaration in 1984 regarding the future of Hong Kong. The Chines are now typically ripping it to shreds. If you are so enamoured by the Chinese system I suggest you go and live there. Then, when you get fed up with it and you start voicing criticism of the system see how long you last before you "disappear".

The CCP is controlling the narrative due to limited access to China, so the WHO can only take what the CCP says at face value.

to be blunt, just do some £)%(*** research into what has happened to medical staff who warned other Chines citizens, and then ponder about their openness and the reliability of the information being presented.

That our government is making a shit show of things doesn't mean that what I said about China isn't true, clearly so I would have thought, that one thing doesn't change something else, but can be true at the same time.

It's simply a one party dictatorship/authoritarian state.

Yea I know all that. 

Lol so rather than you change your views during a debate about China it would be better for you if I were just to emigrate there. Haha you funny, make me laugh. 

I'd love it especially all those big red flags flying high everywhere, perhaps I'd join the party and be in my element, and the victory over fascism military parades...ahhh But nah I love my people, culture, hills, lochs, Glens, seaside, music, weather, language, patter, Celtic and Irn Bru.And learn Chinese at my age? Jeez I can't even be bothered learning Czech or German never mind words that look like a miniature noughts and crosses game. 

youtube.com/watch?v=HYfTR9juvf4&

You'd live in a country where organising a Taineman(sp) Square massacre memorial in America as a Chinese citizen and student would mean that your parents back in China would contact you (and the CCP get in touch) and ask you to delete the event information and cancel it. 

Thanks Tim but unless you are as qualified or have been in China studying the cv outbreak there like Bruce Aylward, a Canadian WHO epidemiologist or epidemiologist Tim Eckmanns of the Robert Koch Institute or even Lawrence Gostin, a global health law scholar at Georgetown University then I will take their views over yours in this instance. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/china-s-aggressive-measures-have-sl...

Namaste. 

Unless it isn't. 

That's right a dictatorship of the workers as opposed to our dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. 

I haven't looked at ur wee link but why would you organise a memorial to that over in America, bit suspicious innit? 

Not in the context that if countries don't recognise what happens in one another, it's easier for human rights abuses to go unchecked. I think it's something a decent hearted Chinese person might do.

But, it isn't. The party has the power, and corruption runs rife while the members seek to become wealthy. In any case, any kind of dictatorship is bad, so that's arguably something of a mute point, which kind of dictatorship it is.

I shall peruse what you posted re covid19 and those who looked into it in China.

What entitles the "workers" to have any sort of monopoly over anybody else when it comes to running a country - or anything else?

I think the next Century belongs to the Chinese. Not a lot we can do about it.

Also, I'd rather have a China plate than a Pyrex plate but I'd certainly prefer a Pyrex Jug. Does that answer your question MP?

I think they do all the work?

But who invests(risks) financial resources?

2p's worth...

Ah! The Crux of the matter! Does already stored wealth have a greater value than future labour? 

I suspect the answer is to not care and get on with my own tiny little existence. Away from thinking about medium things.

Big things on the other hand are cool. Like trees and the whole universe and how cool it is that waves travel so far for me to try and stand on them but usually fall off with a big smile on my face. 

Stay safe folks!

I only made the comment to illustrate my  own view that NOBODY - neither "workers" or anybody else should have a monopoly in "running the show" Successful business needs investors and workers

I just had an 'arg not again' feeling, but it's none of my business really.

A massacre in Tianamen Square that didn't happen but American witnesses claimed it did. Looks like you have been duped by US lies Tim. Perhaps the Chinese person in question was currying favor with the US ruling class to get money etc from them by creating some memorial,totally unlikely but perhaps he is plausible, then perhaps he would gave picked a country that doesn't massacre protesters or attack countries around the world all the time killing millions in the process to put his memorial to a massacre that never happened in a place on the other side of the world. 

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html

And in a publicity stunt straight out of the CIA handbook no sorry Tim. 

No one is saying its a utopia where everyone is a Saint Tim but when was the last war started by China again? What terrorist contra-gangs do China fund to attack countries? Do you know what capitalist countries did to China for over 200 years Tim? Its easy to say a dictatorship is not ideal but how else to you take control from the ruling capitalist class then consolidate your power without one? As well as go on to protect your now socialist country from every evil the capitalists can and will throw at you until you are broken or dead? 

So....the news reporters recounting the deaths and the shootings were in on the subterfuge as well? That's batshit.

Taiwan is now a thriving democracy, full of Chinese people who fled to there during Mao's rise to power. The people are happy there. Similarly, the Buddhist Bhutan region opened up to the outside world after Tibet was invaded, and they have a national happiness index as a priority there, certainly until recently - and democracy now too, but either way, to say that the Tainamen Square massacre didn't happen is batshit, how did they fake the footage then? Show your evidence of who faked the footage or one can't believe you. something that pivotal has got to have evidence of fake footage out there somewhere on the interweb if it was all a facade. 

I'm aghast you think the massacre didn't happen....

https://hongkongfp.com/2016/06/04/eternal-agony-in-my-heart-a-new-eyewitnes...

Is this article complete with first hand account of being there, printed by Chinese people in Hong Kong, some part of a grand conspiracy too, which was still happening in 2016 when it was printed?

If you produce how the footage was faked, I'll concede that it was...

Read the link I posted and learn Tim. 🙂

There were shootings of protesters and military who were wounded but that didn't happen in Tianamen Square it happened in other places nearby. ie. There was as the wikileaks cable points out no massacre in Tianamen Square. 

So, this Tiananmen Mothers group,made up of Chinese mothers from China who lived there at the time, has got the wrong end of the stick thanks to western propaganda - how does that work out - that Chinese people in China at the time didn't know what really happened, compared to the USA - and you 31 years later? Seriously?

https://www.hrichina.org/en/topic/tiananmen-mothers

I guess they're some part of a grand conspiracy to fool the world as well - I honestly give up.

I wasn't there Tim but perhaps read the account exposed by wikileaks at the time that I linked to upthread which is by someone who was there in amongst it all with the protesters throughout it all and seen no massacre. 

I'm not denying people were shot nearby though and some were wounded but it appears there was no massacre in Tianamen Square and American accounts of one are lies to smear the Chinese government.

Ps. Take it easy on yourself, its just a debate Tim. 

Difference is that they have U.K. passports and going back along time . Even hardened Brexiters that I know have conceded that issue. 

Looks to me like a clever move to repatriate a lot of valuable and productive human capital and the business ties that they bring with them. I could be wrong. They might all be 90 years old!

With the lies you spread you are just an economy Donald Trump and equivalently evil.  Don't give me that 'it's just a debate' crap

Well currently noone as everything gets bailed out.  And I'd rather lose my money than my life.   

Hard to provide a comprehensive list of Chinese military aggression because you'll just claim it as misreporting or a Western plot. Here's a much truncated list of conflicts initiated with no external involvement:

Tibet 1950

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chamdo

Sino-Indian war 1962 (note Russia provided military support to India- Britain and the US refused)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

Sino-Vietnamese war 1972

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

And also the current impasse and border issues with India. 

BNO passport didn’t go get any advantage it was mostly an historical relic.

Which shows their position about european migration was never about facts and fairness but all about ideology.

I was confining myself to wars, as per Pefa's original question. If you were going to list all the countries China is involved in border disputes with; India, Bhutan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, The Philippines, and Taiwan

They aren’t « repatriated » as they were never « patriated » in the first place. This passport never gave right to abode in the U.K.

When you read the small prints it seems that what they are suggesting so far is unlikely to allow any more people from HK to settle in the U.K. In practice, all it is is that they’ll be able to visit visa free for 12 months instead of 6, during which you are not allowed to work.

I know that. I'm using repatriated in the sense of our having exported those financial and technological skills many years ago and this is our opportunity to bring some of them home. What I don't know is whether rights to a BNO passport are held by those still of productive age, or if they can be passed through the generations.

With the promise of "a pathway to future citizenship" according to Dominic Raab.

I'm sure the primary purpose is diplomatic, not economic. It was just a gentle muse on the potential motivations and consequences. Additional motivations may only be claimed ex post facto if unintended benefits accrue.

I don’t think it can anymore. Many of productive age have it though, I know several people who have this.

Looks like they have finally set out what it is, basically they would have the right to work and study.

Yes, the problem is that we have been told that the reason to slam the door to EU citizens was to have a « fair » immigration system based on merit.

This has shown that this was never about that, this was always about political control and ideology.

I don’t think it can anymore. Some of productive age have it, I know several people who had this.

Yes, but they are being quite fishy with it. It’s basically and extendable tourist visa. If you could support yourself without work for 15 years in the UK then you can apply for citizenship based on long residence..

Or apply for work visa, but of course it is very hard to get one.

I read that on HK social media the move has been pretty much dismissed as a gimmick by the HK youth.

Yes, the problem is that we have been told that the reason to slam the door to EU citizens was to have a « fair » immigration system based on skills and not geographical preference.

This has shown that this was never about that, this was always about political control and ideology.

The current announcement is much more for internal consumption and a way to glorify colonial past than anything else. 

Cheers for that! Soz - just shows what I know about economics! Who else besides the Japanese Pension Fund are lending to governments these days?

Central banks (more and more), and they have to do so continually for the whole thing to not collapse.

Central banks for starters. These typically operate independent of government. Otherwise a thousand pension funds and insurers, ie investors reliant on a steady income stream (however small) to fulfil their obligations to investors. Also any balanced investment funds full of retail money (ie the public’s savings) that seek to balance risky equity stakes with reliable and safe government debt. Most of the world’s money is not held by governments. Just coveted by them!  

Yes I’m sure this is the primary motivation 

Mongolia.

THE TROOPS BEGAN A SLOW ORDERLY APPROACH TO THE MONUMENT FROM THE NORTH WITH SOLDIERS ON FOOT PRECEEDING APCS. FROM WHAT HE COULD SEE, GALLO FELT THAT MOST OF THE TENTS ON THE SQUARE WERE EMPTY WHEN THE ARMORED VEHICLES ROLLED OVER THEM. THE FIRST LINE OF TROOPS TO REACH THE MONUMENT AREA, PASSED BY THE RED CROSS STATION AND IGNORED THE MEDICAL PERSONNEL AND WOUNDED. AS A SECOND LINE OF TROOPS APPROACHED, THEY CIRCLED THE RED CROSS STATION AND BEGAN YELLING AND THROWING STICKS AND DEBRIS OVER THE HEADS OF THE PEOPLE AT THE STATION. THE MEDICAL PERSONNEL PANICKED AND FLED, LEAVING BEHIND THE WOUNDED. MOST PEOPLE, INCLUDING GALLO, FLED TO THE MONUMENT AREA WHERE THE STUDENTS WERE GATHERED. 10. ALTHOUGH GUNFIRE COULD BE HEARD, GALLO SAID THAT APART FROM SOME BEATING OF STUDENTS, THERE WAS NO MASS FIRING INTO THE CROWD OF STUDENTS AT THE MONUMENT.

WHEN POLOFF MENTIONED SOME REPORTEDLY EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS OF MASSACRES AT THE MONUMENT WITH AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, GALLO SAID THAT THERE WAS NO SUCH SLAUGHTER. ONCE AGREEMENT WAS REACHED FOR THE STUDENTS TO WITHDRAW, LINKING HANDS TO FORM A COLUMN, THE STUDENTS LEFT THE SQUARE THROUGH THE SOUTHEAST CORNER. ESSENTIALLY EVERYONE, INCLUDING GALLO, LEFT. THE FEW THAT ATTEMPTED TO REMAIN BEHIND WERE BEATEN AND DRIVEN TO JOIN THE END OF THE DEPARTING PROCESSION. ONCE OUTSIDE THE SQUARE, THE STUDENTS HEADED WEST ON QIANMEN DAJIE WHILE GALLO HEADED EAST TO HIS CAR. THEREFORE, HE COULD NOT COMMENT ON REPORTS THAT STUDENTS WERE AMBUSHED AND SLAUGHTERED IN THE ALLEY JUST WEST OF THE SQUARE NEAR THE BEIJING CONCERT HALL.

Note, that from not being there, he 'couldn't comment' on reports that students were ambushed and slaughtered (massacred).

11. LATER THE MORNING OF JUNE 4, GALLO AND HIS WIFE MADE THEIR WAY BACK TO THE SQUARE, AGAIN VIA THE ALLEY TO THE SOUTH OF THE MUSEUM OF THE REVOLUTION. HE SAID THAT FOR NO APPARENT REASON THAT ALLEY WAS THE ONLY ONE NOT SEALED OFF. FROM THE ALLEY THEY SAW TROOPS CLEARING THE SQUARE PILING UP LARGE PLASTIC BAGS AND DRAGGING THEM TO HELICOPTERS. THEY COULD NOT COMMENT ON WHETHER THE BAGS CONTAINED REFUSE OR BODIES. AT THE TIME, THEY SAID, THEY COULD NOT IMAGINE THE BAGS CONTAINED BODIES AND HAD ASSUMED IT WAS GARBAGE. ALTHOUGH HE DID NOT ACTUALLY WITNESS ANY LARGE SCALE SHOOTINGS ON THE SQUARE PROPER, GALLO SAW MANY CASUALTIES BROUGHT INTO THE SQUARE AND DID NOT DOUBT THAT HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN BEIJING WERE KILLED BY THE ARMY ON JUNE 3 AND 4.

Several hundreds of people killed (massacred?) by the army. 

HE SAID THAT A SPANISH TELEVISION CREW MIGHT HAVE FOOTAGE OF THE REPORTED MASSACRE AT THE BEIJING CONCERT HALL AND THAT THE SPANISH AMBASSADOR WOULD BE HOLDING A SCREENING FOR OTHER AMBASSADORS WHEN HE RECEIVED A GOOD COPY. APPARENTLY AN EARLIER VERSION OF THE TAPE HAD BEEN BADLY BUTCHERED BY EDITORS IN SPAIN WHO HAD SPLICED TOGETHER PIECES OF THE VIDEO IN THE WRONG SEQUENCE.

It almost seems like you are dancing on the head on a pin, in saying that while hundreds people were killed, it didn't actually happen 'in the square', meaning that the Tianamen Square massacre was a fabrication by the US, because they were killed just outside it instead.

To conclude, a massacre did happen (the killing of hundreds sounds like a massacre to me) of the students gathered in Tianamen Square (sp), even if it 'wasn't quite inside the square' that they died, but while leaving via the only available exit.  One scenario is hardly more excusable than the other one is to be fair, maybe slightly it is - in terms of numbers - but it's still the slaughtering of students seeking democracy.

It's interesting to learn that the majority of killings might not have actually happened in Tianamen Square, but it seems disingenuous to say that the narrative of the Tianamen Square Massacre was a US hoax, when there were media people from a few countries reporting on what was happening as far as they could do given the restrictions, (including the smuggling out of their tapes from China with people not officially connected to them) and the mass killing of students in 2 locations where students who had been protesting in the square traveled to.

The problem with an authoritarian regime like the CCP is that (if left in peace to do so) they can make it hard enough for information about something to leave their country, that anybody who wants to can hint that it didn't happen. 

Thinking of something you said about it being a socialist country, compared to say the UK I would argue that it actually isn't, from how there's more chance of the poorest having some form of social mobility in the UK than there is for a peasant farmer or poor person in an isolated village in China, for whom there is basically no chance, and when one adds in our welfare system (which has been under attack in the past ten years), democracy, free press, the recognition which human rights have here, and access  to citizen journalism online too. China is an authoritarian capitalist country, our country is a democratic capitalist country, in which the prospects for the poorest and those who try to hold government to account are somewhat (but seemingly comparatively less than in recent times) brighter. I would like the UK to have more social mobility and a better functioning democracy, and for it to be rather more like certain Scandinavian countries,  but it's still more socialist than modern day China - I would argue. 

Edit: If somebody from overseas gets into some kind of trouble with a Chinese person, even one where the Chinese person is in the wrong, there is a process known as 'drinking tea' which the police conduct with all parties involved, which is basically the police helping in negotiating how much the 'injured party' wants in financial compensation, ie what money the person from overseas pays the Chinese person (they do actually all drink tea, but the process isn't as benign as just doing that). If it goes on to official legal proceedings they always find in favour of the Chines person. Is that in the spirit of socialism?

Every aspect of modern day Chinese society is as opaque and tricky to negotiate as that is. Where people do illegal things in lower tier cities, the lucky businesses get tipped off by officials who know and like them or whom they give backhanders to, and then when higher up officials visit, the people who aren't in the know pay the fines or get punished in other ways.

And every country bordering the Souuth China Sea. 

Well it looks like for those people with that status a very valuable one. 

LOL You want to lay off that stuff.
 Yeah im evil and spread lies eh so feel free to show me any lies though i cant deny the evil part grarrr !

It isn't 'just a debate' though, it's important that falsehoods don't get spread about these kinds of things. So that share is quite interesting, in how it was still a massacre but possibly not carried out in the way people understand.

Where did i spread a falsehood ?

Absolutely , truth is everything. So what of the American accounts of students being massacred in Tianamen Square ? Is that not a falsehood ?

Those are two entirely seperate matters.

So he didn't doubt that a massacre happened - yes? 

If his word is good enough for you to decide that the US created a false narrative (all by themselves when journalists from other countries were there), it's got to be good enough for you to concede that a massacre took place too, even if it wasn't within the square. That would be being as consistent as one wishes others to be, I would think.

The US wasn't the only country to report on a massacre of students in the square, so, to frame things as it being a US created narrative and US created hoax, is - as far as I can see - spreading a falsehood, or if not spreading a falsehood it's not entirely accurate (to put it mildly to be honest).

Edit: youtube.com/watch?v=kMKvxJ-Js3A&

See, here, Kate Aidie(sp) reporting on troops firing on the students and mass killing (massacring) them.

To conclude, since it's not something which was 'only said by the US', it wasn't a US hoax, wherever the students were massacred. 

So no wars started by the Chinese in 50 years including taking part in others wars. 

We cant even go back 5 witthout atttacking some country and nor can the USA.And then there are all the ones before that ,i dont know probably one every 5 years or so for us . Yeah bloody Chinese eh.

Im not having a go btw as you haven't stated an opinion but its funny how some folk (Tim) gets so wound up about a protest in China 30 years ago and no doubt many protesters killed when we commit genocide in Yemen, destroy country after country constantly murdering hundreds of thousands each time and even create the largest refugee crisis since WW2 because of what we and our allies did in Libya and Syria and before that our genocide in Iraq of 300,000 children and i dont see the same total outrage and revulsion, I dont understand.
 
Well i do actually but im putting it forward. 
 

Anyone can say they believe or don't believe news but that has nothing to do with witnessing it. 

No, he doesn't deny news of hundreds killed but that is beside the point as he has no proof and I am dealing with solid evidence, which he has given stating there was no massacre in Tianamen Square. 

Jesus! I stated last night that people were shot and wounded so what are you on about? 

The guy was in Tianamen Square the whole time right in amongst the students and right there when the protesters left the Square and seen and heard no massacre so how is it ' batshit', I deserve an answer? 

And of course the American line is the same as the British for god sake come on. 

I'm seeking agreement that it was a massacre. If one takes the time, it's possible to find enough Chinese accounts of mass killing of students, but I simply don't have the time to post it here for you.

He left at times. You do deserve an answer, I said that the idea that it was an American hoax was batshit, given that other countries/journalists from other countries reported similar/nearly the same. At least, that is what I had in mind, so if I didn't quite write that you have my apologies if that isn't quite what I wrote.

See, it's all a conspiracy? Oh right, you realise that Kate Aidie's journalistic integrity is being questioned by you now because of your global world view - so what evidence do you have that her journalistic integrity isn't intact? This is an important question given that she was there. 

You can't now say 'wherever', we are talking about Tianamen Square, I have already clearly stated that many people were shot and wounded but there was no massacre in Tianamen Square according to the eyewitness account I provided (which is all I have to go on) so it looks like it is you who is spreading falsehoods Tim. 

So you are saying Gallo is wrong and people were being massacred in Tianamen Square?

Adie was not in Tianamen Square but Gallo was and seen no massacre. 

I use US and G7 and UK and NATO interchangeably when it comes to capitalist v communist or plain imperialism, its a bit lazy but the US is the Don that pushes more than the rest when it comes to attacking other countries with bombs from the sky to weaken them and propaganda bombs for the same purpose. 

She was in Tianamen Square?

She wasn't in Tianamen Square and that is where I am talking about, look back over what I wrote last night, it's all about Tianamen Square and no where else. 

So how am I questioning Adies integrity? 

Well, no, I'm not, since I've posted it's interesting to read that much of the deaths may not have occurred within the square, I'm not still insisting that they did, am I? 

Who is Gallo, what do we know about him and his integrity is a question which occurred to me while washing up, but more broadly I'm just after you conceding that a massacre happened even if it wasn't as described in happening within the square - that is - if you take Gallo as somebody to be trusted (which you seem to)- it must also mean that you trust his judgement on not doubting that many were killed elsewhere? If you don't in (quite admirably) insisting on evidence, then doesn't this clearly illustrate what a bad thing an authoritarian regime like the CCP is, in restricting the spread of information about such atrocities (given their seriousness)?

Can I take it that by you posting about many people being shot and killed, that this is agreement that a massacre of some kind occurred? 

Edit: In an agreeable way, it's really important to me, given the amount of information (should one choose to look for it) from Chinese people who lost friends and relatives at the time, that I get a direct 'Yes a massacre did occur' from you, so that there isn't any possible nuance in your answer. Perhaps it's an element of online communication, but I don't quite get the sense that you've expressed that.

OK, I think there was some confusion late last night between us as I was specifically referring to Tianamen Square and not the other parts of the city when I stated there was no massacre and I think you have interpreted that as me saying no one was killed or wounded by gunfire at all which isn't what I wrote. 

Not at all I'm an out and out authoritarian when it comes to establishing a better world, its the only way to do it considering the total cluster Fk we now have. Tell me what is the only country in the world to try and stop over population? which as you know is a very major problem in the world. China, authoritarian Marxist that's who not a capitalist country that can't do anything because people won't vote for that. 

You think a counter-revolution would have been more peaceful and created less suffering in China in 1989, do you know what happened in the USSR when the capitalists came in there? 

I seen a few people wounded by gunfire and I seen few people dead from gunfire and Gallo stated police were also casualties but I can imagine most would have been protesters but to say it was a massacre without evidence would be very wrong so how can I? 

You can look to the 2002 coup in Venezuela for evidence of anti-government snipers killing protesters and police to blame it on the government. This was true in Daraa Syria also in 2011,east Libya to where the USA lied about Gaddafi killing protesters. Then look at Ukraine and the fascists killing their own protesters. Its an old tactic in US regime change matters against target countries but I don't think it happened in China in 1989 though. 

China is capitalist, and their one child policy isn't enforced like it once was (it has dark consequences, like people growing up risk averse and rather focused only on the well being of 'them and their own'. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts the most.

Try looking at Taiwan instead, the country with most in common to China (which is working as a democracy)?

There is evidence online if one takes the time to look, just from the number of accounts from those involved or who have lost others, but fair enough.

It's interesting to get to the root of why you seem okay with authoritarian regimes which claim to be socialist or Marxist or communist, in seeing it as acceptable to lose democracy if a better world and way of life is promised. You really should look into what life is actually like in the day to day sense in China though, in having got 'less free' thanks to who is currently in charge (with no ability for the people to vote them out - not a party of the people after all).

How would a population who felt oppressed by an authoritarian regime free themselves of it's rule?

I doubt that the majority of Chinese people feels oppressed.
China is for the most part an authoritarian regime by popular consent. And when you look at the way things are going in the West, we are moving sadly very quickly towards a similar model. In a tyranny of the majority, the majority never really feels oppressed.

I'm interested in your reasons for thinking this - don't you think that a mechanism for change is an essential thing to have?

Do you know of the 'black jails' in China which don't officially exist, into which people can vanish without their relatives knowing their whereabouts, or the Tibetans who when journalists when being escorted around Tibet before the Olympics in China, shouted out that they had no human rights and that the world must know about that? Since that happened one has to be 'escorted' when visiting Tibet.  After North Korea, China is possibly the best example the world has for why one party authoritarianism is a really bad idea.

It is essential but in no way sufficient. 

I completely agree I am simply pointing out to you that authoritarianism is usually bad mostly for the people on the receiving end of the stick, typically various scapegoated minorities and political opponents.

For the majority it can work very well. And that is the most vicious thing about it, the majority will not necessarily realise they are living under authoritarianism.

I would argue that I many ways, the U.K. and the US have already fallen or are falling under authoritarianism at a rapid pace, and before criticising China we would do well look at home first.

China introduced its one child policy 3 years after Mao's death so were they capitalist then? No they certainly were not and Mao introduced a two child policy in 1969 so was China capitalist then when that was introduced? Again no. So you should brush up on the facts before making comments Tim. China is statist atm and has been for some time, as I stated upthread they have been going through a capitalist phase controlled by the communist party and in tune with Marx as they see it. 

Tim that has zero to do with the point that was raised don't you see that? And i can hardly believe you want to hold Taiwan as an example since they were a fascist dictatorship until 1987. Democracy is when the masses hold the power Tim so you don't get anymore democratic than a Marxist dictatorship. 

I'm sure there is but how do you work out which is genuine from which is lies instigated by shadowy foreign(capitalist) groups working against the Chinese government? 

See above. 

Was China more free when European capitalist countries forced there way on to its land, stayed and stole what they could for over 100 years? Do you want to talk about ' day to day', life in China then and how free that was? Do you really want to go into the details about all the crimes and suffering for so long that went on there because of imperialism by capitalist countries? 

So the CPC is a party of the ​people,the Chinese people, who are doing it for themselves, creating wealth for China and thanks to the work of the people and the guidance of the CPC they are now the 2nd biggest economy in the world and no doubt soon to be the 1st and China has never been stronger in its history. 

Now what did you say about voting that away or Taiwan or something? 

A child policy one way or the other policy has got eff all to do with capitalism or Marxism, it's just a child policy?

So, with both countries having been under an authoritarian regime, which one is now democratic and free?  This is about the contrast in how it is to live under democracy or a 'one party dictatorship' still. Try thinking about why they have recently voted for a party against being reunified with China following what is happening in Hong Kong.

You could try the Mothers of Tianamen(sp) for a start, 135 mothers who want recognition of the deaths of their children . 

So....that has what to do with another kind of shitness exactly, perhaps you'd like to live in a country which unofficial black jails exist into which people could vanish - and why would those even exist if a regime had the consent of the population?

See above about the black jails.

This makes no sense, please answer this question, how does a population free itself of an authoritarian regime it feels oppressed by? 

Which capitalist countries have introduced a population control like China did since 1969?

Answer - Zero

Why? Because when the people have the power in socialism you can and in capitalist so called democracies you can't. 

Perhaps try thinking of who owns the media and power in Taiwan and therefore dictates who people there will vote for... Hmm? 

And no sorry I have to get blunt with you now. This isn't about how life is under a parliamentary voting system as opposed to a socialist voting system, this about so much more. This is about Chinese being slaves to European countries for centuries that came to China stole the land, resources, people, started numerous wars there and let 10s of millions die constantly in famine after famine after famine.This is about Chinese people being sick to death of these foreign imperialists having control in their country and Chinese

taking China back for Chinese. 

Not to mention the fact socialism is far superior to capitalism since this world is pretty destroyed because of capitalism and no one in capitalist countries are going to vote to have less stuff and thereby save the planet are they? A mess created by capitalism and its stupid parliamentary voting system. 

I'm sure some are genuine maybe all are yet with all the constant predictable lies spread by the US/UK etc about target countries murdering protesters when it never happened. So how do you know what or how much is true and how much is the usual US tactic of lying about peaceful anti-government protesters being 'massacred', by a government the US are fully engaged in destroying? 

You mean we'll Tim, you are a good soul but you seem so niave and therefor perfect fodder for intelligence propaganda lies.I have come across a ton of well meaning good people like you through the years who lap up all the latest lies by the intelligence infiltrated western media and their wild nonsense stories of rape jails in Gaddafi's Libya, chemical weapons used by Assad and a thousand other lies. Now I'm sure jails exist in China like everywhere and some will be different colors. 

I tell you how China is at the top of the world, they own their country now after hundreds of years of theft and atrocities by European capitalist "democracies". How China has now never had it so good and you say what about jails? Everywhere has jails Tim. Everywhere has criminals. 

If there are too many people what do you do? Try and reduce the population by curbing the birth rate, so some will then say 'ooh I'm being oppressed by that', yes, so what when the greater collective good is to have that law? 

What if someone says ' I want to vote every 4 years for a capitalist party'? Now if you are socialist then this is out of the question as you know from what I showed above which is best and it isn't that so you say no you can vote socialist but that is all. Now that person will feel oppressed but in the big picture he should stop being so egotistical and think of the collective, his people, his country and the planet. 

Go China! Chinese people doing it for themselves!

It's a great place to live if you want a transplant.  You can get one faster than anywhere else in the world. Don't worry about where it comes from.

The one child policy (now two) - also a sign of unbelievable forward thinking and great social power to the people. Obviously keeps the forced abortion clinics busy, but that helps with ensuring everyone is gainfully employed I guess.

And freedom of speech. You go, guys! Criticise away, speak your mind, China is open to your ideas.  Until it isn't. But they can ensure you quickly stop speaking, so don't worry about that....

Verily, a utopia on earth.

Tim, lots of points to you for continuing to try, but if I were you I wouldn't bother. Because apparently China today is a beacon of democracy, a wonderful advanced leading democracy where the people are wonderfully free and are allowed to vote in completely free elections once every 4 years HA-HA-HA-HA

And oh yes, I forgot to add, a leading beacon of freedom of speech where everyone is completely free to say and publish absolutely anything they like 

In reply to

first post, long time voyeur. 

the absence of any serious understanding on this thread is stunning, to the degree that propaganda - in either direction - barely describes it. even a short and shallow trip to the bund, yangshuo or the warriors is enough to cut thru the media distorted cliches that fill 95% of the content here. no one could take anyone seriously if this discussion were over France or Mexico, but the moment things become about china the bullshit starts to flow. as a fifth of the world population theres no shortage of chinese around to converse with yet not a single post here indicates that has happened. engage a real human being. this is exactly the issue with where china is today.

before my rant ill qualify my credentials are 4 years of studying the chinas relations westward during the fall of sovietism, then leaving study to go there after a lecturer stated "the stupidest man in history is the one who chooses to study it whilst its actually being made". ive spent the next 25 years going there, a collective 8 years in all of which 6 were living there over 3 stints starting in 2000. i run a business that has me there 3 months a year, i know a bit of mandarin and have traveled to all but 5 provinces. i dont hang out in the highly westernized areas of sanlitun, shanghai or beijing.

anyway...

the last 30 years of china alone are so complex as to see, let alone take, one side or another is just absurd. throw in the last century and you square that, the century before you square it again. keep doing that for the 22 centuries since the nation consolidated. 'china' is like saying 'europe'. the people are just as diverse in every way europeans are including being unified under a single agreement only very recently. saying 'china' without qualifying what you mean serves only to illustrate your ignorance and digestion of popular media. the population themselves dont it anymore than a venetian sees himself as no more than european.

again, anyway....

currently political china is sliding the wrong way on the scale from totalitarian regime to stalinist dictatorship. with xi now embedded as an entire school of political thought and empowered to not leave, the party used to 5 year renewals (which includes scapegoating) is reorganizing for long haul relations not seen since mao. of course thats ugly and something very upsetting to the dengian reformists who set the nation on track after it all went so bad last time.

the double edged sword in china is massively increased freedoms have meant massively increased pressure from the party to divert and provide to it. every mainland chinese gets google and facebook via vpn if they want it, most are allowed passports if they can pay for it, jack ma will ship you anything you want. the government knows this, knows its not only pointless to stop it but that power lays in providing it, so does what it can to divert the surge to its own ends ie 'xi-ism makes you rich'.

trade-wise the chinese dream is a neo-tang dynasty where a highly cultured central state deals with other high culture states via secure routes. they dont include the US and the UK in this, seeing them as volatile upstarts worthy of only being consumers. come back with 1000 years under your belt and play for real money. chinas ideal peers are the middle east, asia minor, japan and in a weird way africa. regions that dont let things like populist democracy, 4 year political terms and G8 protesters get in the way of a deal. the belt and road project exemplifies this as weak western policy matches the hydrocarbon center shift from the gulf to the caspian along trade routes and geostrategy that have existed for millenia. theocracies and dictatorships provide the long term stability china likes and the more western leaders fail with things like ukraine, the taliban and the iran deal the more happy china is. its not geroge orwell its frank herbert. no one gets around rules like the chinese. for every oppressive rule theres a dozen ways around it on a scale of humiliation - something all of asia and most of the near east runs on.

as for starting wars, china doesnt do invasion per se, they do absorption. despite being subject to some of the worst atrocities of occupation under humanity, china has no expeditionary military ideas being based on the idea they couldnt sustain a real conflict beyond the immediate region. that said, they have incursions and conflict along almost all of their borders. in part due to long standing incursions of their own and in part due to the same attitude from others. the clashes with india are good examples as both sides are occupying disputed territory that both have claimed under duress. chinas main contribution to war has been the korean peninsula where legions of cannon fodder marched over the locals until solidarity wore off. by chinese standards a failure that birthed the bastard hyper-dependent state lead by a hereditary lineage exactly like what revolutionary maoism was meant to destroy. its easy to see why china has stuck with slow burn incursion ever since, preferring to buy out its neighbors instead.

before anyone mentions 'what about tibet?', more than any element in the western mind the 'tibet' issue is the most corrupted and least understood. of course nothing excuses the bad things that have happened there, but the 'free tibet' movement hasnt done this, ignoring the actual geo strategic history and centering on the new age pseudo buddhist silliness that surrounds the dalai lama and HIS claims to supernatural power. to be weighed up it needs a perspective on the region the richard gere version leaves out. if youre going to center an argument on the invasion of a country you need to define that country on a map first, and this is where most arguments implode. without that simple measure the greatest atrocities from both sides are left out to leave only the short story of the invasion of lhasa to over throw a theocratic feudal state. as brutal as that was it simplifies out horrendous events far beyond just the chinese communists, forgetting the roles the west, britain especially, japan and russia played. its an insult to tibetans to simplify there own recent history and no one plays into this like the central chinese government.

xinjiang then makes tibet look simple. as ununified as the tibetans are the people of xinjiang get lumped into a single name of uigher that is perfect for both the western media and the chinese central government to abuse and exploit. uigher has been likened to the term latino - if the germans invented it. its a term of convenience appropriated from early soviet times when the great game powers were carving up turkestan. from experience the current situation in xinjiang feels a lot like gaza or the golan heights where theres so many shades of the story theres no bottom to it. everyone knows there are camps with turkic muslims in them - along with chinese muslims, chinese catholics, mongols, tajiks and everybody else. like tibet, propigating the memes its all about one groups overlooks the abuses against other groups. the scale is bigger and more involved than the bbc lets on in its 300 words or less explanations which it seems all the hand wringing comfortable west can cope with between tweets. make note tho that the 'uigher issue' is ethnic not religious. the same number of muslim hui people who are accepted as ethnic chinese have much less of the problems

and communism....anyone thinking china ever has been really communist is a fool. they have the trappings of communism in the centralized, totalitarian state that trades outwardly as the product of collective give-a-shitery, but chinas only source of sustenance for its entire history has been every-man-for-himself grass roots capitalism and obscene luxury for the rich. like the west, the only communists in china are lower middle class fantasists who have remained that for the last 50 years whilst the poor have caught up and the rich have been buying america. the billion raised out of absolute poverty didnt achieve it by guevarian ideals they achieved in in spite of them, by embracing technology, education, urbanization and consumerism. they got jobs, went to university, started small businesses, connected and invested. in the US when people are asked the old reaganist meme of if things are better now than 10 years ago you get a convoluted well-yeah-but-nah-but-yeah response, in china you gets a hands down hell yeah. branded communism never brought anything beyond mass labour to rebuild after the wars and armaments from russia in the 50s, all rapidly discarded asap in favour of industrial agrarianism and consumerism when the party realized the future was east with japanese investment and pan pacific markets. at its peak the ideas of socialism to provide basics like health services and life security worked well but they were eroded to about where the US is now by around 1995. currently its a free for all state with a centralized authoritarian system that has a lot of holes and who-gives-a-f*ck in it.

all those sweat shop workers making barely living wage are still better off than the seasonal agrarian and lethal construction jobs they come from. of course theyre exploited but a consumerist culture keeps them happy allowing them to buy all the crap of any rich society. its completely normal for someone who looks blinged out in the latest trends to live in a shared hovel. my good friends are like this. its normal. 

denying the 'tiannanmen event' is wrong on more levels that can be imagined. the name itself is a media concoction that makes where it happened specifically a non-argument of stunning stupidity, concocted only as a journalists meme for the tiny window on the whole affair they had having been rounded up and confined to hotels beside the square. no one with any thought thinks the events were soley confined to the central square itself. the mass shootings happened in an area called Qianmen where the famous KFC stands. its as not tiannamen square as the statue of Charles I is not trafalgar square. search images and its clearly in the tiananmen complex. you can see the goddamn street lights and barricades that are still there. even the chinese government says it happened, stating 300 deaths and branding it as putting down a revolt. what does get left out is the scale of the protests, that had gone on a year in big cities across the country then rapidly converged in beijing with compliance of the railways. in a country with few qualms about human collateral the world knew what would happen, looked on, and it did. deng, an otherwise incredible statesman, shrugged it off as the way it goes.....in 1980s china most people recalled the insanities of the cultural revolution and disturbingly saw this as part of an existing narrative. as exemplified by continuous upheaval and suppression, mothership china sees personal repression as insignificant to the whole.

china has a logic on corruption, rule of law and human rights thats rightly shocking to european sensibilities but by the standards of chinas history makes disturbing sense. as a self contained universe they see no sense in taking on the ways of other societies and since the imposed systems of japanese occupation are resentful to it. whats also shocking is how shameless they are about it. executed criminals are shown in newspapers, temporary drives of executions for varying offences are rolled thru, corruption is seen as a sport you can get good at thru practice and fair for those who do and separation of legal institutions is seen as counter to strong centralized policy. they point at weaknesses in other systems to justify this and to the centuries of the authoritarian states the chinese nations has only ever known it works in the same way iran, russia, americas wild west and mordor do. you get by by your wits, connections and adaptability. 

ive not been to china since covid took off but i maintain daily correspondence with my peers there who are also trying to stay afloat. they have the same worries we do and know the government is lying. they see the outbreak as having logic; semi legal wetmarkets (most were shut down after sars and whats still operating is whats been pushed into the underground) selling animals only the very poor or very wealthy eat, a culture where spitting is still normal and the city wuhan which is the largest transport hub in the country - where the train lines all converge and the yangzi shipping connects sichuan the most populous state with shanghai the most populous city. it never was going to be small but we cant blame any country for what happens beyond its borders. as the chinese are saying 'we started all this but it was trump who turned it from an epidemic to a pandemic'. they do seems to have had a much more intensive response than anywhere else tho, including compulsory masks in many places, seriously locked down travel and tests for body temp in every building. your man cummings would never have made it out of town in china without bribing a road check point.

so what do i think now? nothing really. the bad and good things about china will shuffle about but still go on. china changes direction like an oil tanker and cuts off anything in the way whatever it is. the wests hour of hate will only distract from chinas real problems but i wont write off an entire fifth of the human population because of what their unelected leadership does, nor will i romanticize them to fit some fantasy ideology.

What? What was that? Run that by me again, please, thanks

Capitalisation & punctuation aside, that is a brilliant round-up.

Are you sure you mean "voyeur"?

Best post game i’ve read in a long time. You’ve cut through a lot of bullshit in one go.

So absorption is OK despite bordering countries like Vietnam, Japan and others who border the South Chian sea objecting to China  " absorbing" and setting up these military staging posts on artifical islands.UN has rejected China's claim to these areas etc.

And you have failed to mention Taiwan( which is typical as China does not like to talk about it)

China really struggles with it' s new found welath and status and does not know how to project itself realistically on the world stage.Its a shame until about 10 years ago it did a very good job of coming across well.