UKH

I go round my house every day cleaning all the surfaces that get touched with a solution of washing up liquid and water. I had been using bleach and water but was told bleach wasn't as effective and anyway, it left the place smelling like a swimming pool.

When I look at the contents of the proprietary cleaners under the sink I'm never quite sure how effective they might be at at killing the virus. What's an ionic surfactant for example? I have a vague idea of the chemistry but no idea whether such a thing will always destroy Covid19. Further when I look on the interweb I find no articles on whether Flash, Mr Muscle or any these things are effective or not.

Does anyone have any evidence based recommendations either on propriety cleaners or on what you might have in your sink cupboard that might be pressed into use ?

In reply to Removed User:

I'm sure someone with more knowledge will be along soon, but I'm pretty sure 'surfactant' is basically a 'soap'. As has been well publicized ordinary soap does a good job of killing COVID-19 by destroying its fatty protective layer. So presumably these will too? Interested to hear more informed answers...

In reply to Removed User:

A surfactant is a chemical that lowers surface tension or reduces tension between two phases - common uses are as detergents, wetting agents and emulsifiers. They can also make things foam.

In terms of coronavirus specifically, soapy water is your best bet.  Any all-purpose detergent should be effective. The virus has an RNA genome, which is very delicate and is wrapped in a lipid shell. If you destroy the lipid shell, the RNA will degrade very quickly. Detergents have a hydrophobic part to the molecule, which will embed itself in the lipid, and a hydrophilic part to the molecule allowing it to disperse in water, pulling the lipid apart.  This, incidentally is why you should use soap and water, rather than just spraying cleaner onto a surface and letting it dry.

I would be more cautious about the efficacy of any specialised cleaners, for example those which are primarily bleaching agents or specifically designed to remove limescale.

In reply to Removed User:

I have no scientific knowledge as to whether this is the most effective, but I have made up a mix of Ecover all purpose cleaner and water in a spray bottle and use that for everything. How effective Vs other options, I am not sure!

In reply to Removed User:

Are you doing this for any reason? Surely if it's anywhere in your house it's because you or someone who lives with you put it there? 

If you're still working and in a high risk environment and/or concerned about bringing it in, it would be better to change out of clothes when you get in and wash them. Wash hands thoroughly, maybe have a shower.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Sounds fine to me!  For coronavirus, anyway.

In reply to XXXX:

My assumption as to why this is worth doing is that if someone in the household has it and spreads it on surfaces, then if they are cleaned regularly then the other household members receive a lower viral load from the surfaces so reduces their chance of a really bad bout of it. This is based on my very limited understanding of viruses! So if that infected person coughs or sneezes on you, then the surfaces are largely irrelevant, but if they don't then this might be a good way to lower your risks, I think!

In reply to Removed User:

I damp dust with soapy water.

The baby incubators at work are cleaned in a similar way. In the past they have been swapped after an hour. The results compared extremely well with equipment cleaned with antibacterial products.

In reply to Removed User:

Same as always. I do clean anything entering the house, or ideally even the car before driving off. Better to remove or kill as soon as you made contact with it. If it's already on surfaces at home, it's too late and you'll likely already have caught it. 

I did read that best soaps are like those old hand soaps folk used to use that would leave your skin feeling really dry, because they are quite alkaline. Could be urban myth. 

In reply to Removed User:

Reluctance.

In reply to XXXX:

I share the house with my wife but really I'm doing it just to cover all eventualities. Really the only way the virus could be brought into the house as far as I know, is on packaging and bottles that we bring back from the shops or perhaps on the soles of our shoes. I give the doormats a good skoosh of soapy water every day as well.

In reply to Removed User:

Washing up liquid and hot water, it's actually ecofriendly laundry liquid decanted into a smaller bottle because that's cheaper. If it's the mechanical aspect of washing hands which is meant to be the helpful thing as much as the soap is, I'm figuring the same applies to wiping my surfaces too.

In reply to Removed User:

I clean mine with a shovel. Still lots to do before baby arrives!

Jk

In reply to Removed User:

We use a mixture of white vinegar and water for most surfaces apart from toilets. It works surprisingly well with little smell and the benefit of no nasty chemicals around the kids. Not sure how well it would do against Covid-19 though

In reply to Removed User:

My wife 😉😉😉😉

In reply to Hat Dude:

Beat me to it, but don't let her know.

In reply to Timmd:

I'm fairly sure it's the soap.

In reply to Removed User:

Why are you worried about CV-19 entering you house on a daily basis?

Unless you go out or someone comes in you not very likely to get the virus into your home.

The virus needs people to move it around.

Obviously, if you clean you house everyday anyway, then carry on. If not then are you not simply using more stuff, that you'll need to buy more of, which might be used somewhere else more effectively.

In reply to Removed User:

I'm taking lockdown with therefore no chance of visitors and social distancing as an opportunity to largely liberate myself from the tyranny of cleaning, showering, shaving etc. It's like a scummy climbing trip at home🙂

In reply to Robert Durran:

Have you got the lockdown haircut yet?

In reply to krikoman:

I've cut my own hair for years (see an earlier thread regarding Magwitch)

Decided I needed a trim this week, then thought omg what if the clippers pack up half way through, where would I be able to get new ones?

In reply to krikoman:

Had my first lockdown shave this evening. Did the top of my head while I was at it (no. 1).

In reply to Removed User:

I live on my own. I wash my hands when I come into the house, without touching anything else on the way in. Other than that, I'm not cleaning any more than normal. Which is infrequently...

In reply to captain paranoia:

Does anyone know if it matters whether the water is hot or cold when hand washing? Just thinking of the gas bill.

In reply to Baz P:

I don't think it makes any difference, it's more that warm water is less harsh on your skin, in my experience.  I certainly don't remember when I did my training on handwashing and infection control in the NHS that it was important.

In reply to Removed User:

I use a robot to clean my house because I'm lazy and I love tech.

Mine is an older version of this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/iRobot-Roomba-671-Connected-programmable/dp/B07D89...

In reply to captain paranoia:

...so when you go out you touch your front door knob and infect yourself with whatever you put on it when you opened it to go in?

I'd like to see houses have a bowl of soapy water in the front garden to eliminate this transmission mechanism.

In reply to Toerag:

I have 70% alcohol wipes on a shelf at the front door for such an occasion.

Nothing like polishing my knob with stinging alcohol.

In reply to Toerag:

No. My door doesn't work like that. I don't touch the door handle to open the door when coming in (it has a deadlock and a Yale lock), only to close it when I leave. Likewise, I don't touch the inside door handle when I enter.

When entering shops, I put on thin gloves. I remove them and sanitise as soon as I leave. So my hands are unlikely to be contaminated when I get home, anyway; I'm touching no other surfaces when out. Washing is an additional precaution.

In reply to Robert Durran:

ha ha, I'm usually a No.2 (easy there) but decided this time, since I'm not going anywhere, to go clippers only, it's very spikey.

We did a video "meet up" the other day only to find out the majority of our climbing club (the blokes at least) have independently decided to do the same.

In reply to off-duty:

I did a bit of looking into it, there's been studies done, and the mechanical action of washing hands with water alone does result in cleaner hands, but adding soap improves things. The germs 'linger in the oiliness on the skin' essentially which is where the soap or whatever helps.

In reply to Timmd:

Plus the soap actually is very effective in deactivating the virus.

In reply to krikoman:

When there is more than one occupant it is quite possible for one person to have been infected, eg shopping, and then to develop the disease, spread the virions, and infect others several days after, without anyone having left the house for a few days.

In reply to The Lemming:

70% alcohol is not sufficient, it needs to be 95%, that's ethanol with 5% water naturally.

Soap or detergent and hot water is the best way of killing the virus. It's not a living organism like a bacterium so antiseptics won't work.

A surfactant is so-called because it's surface acting. Surfactants are commonly called detergents.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

That's not true.  70% is actually better than 100%.  There were tests done. 

In reply to Timmd:

The virus is a nano particle, a bundle of protein held together by a skin of fat and something else. Soap dissolves the fat and thus destroys the particle. Water won't do that but it will probably remove the particle from your body.

That's what I understand anyway.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Why_is_70_ethanol_used_for_wiping_microbi...

In reply to Rigid Raider:

May I ask where you got this from?

I'm sure the hand sanitizer at work isn't 95%, but 70% or there abouts.

I also happen to have 99.9%. I just diluted it with Hello Vera jell.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

However the bit about soapy water is true.  

In reply to Rigid Raider:

This looks a little cartoonish, however it has some very useful information. Thought you may like it.

youtube.com/watch?v=BtN-goy9VOY&

In reply to Baz P:

I've taken to leaving a pan of hot water outside my back door and washing my hands in that before shopping locally, and then washing them in the still warm pan before I enter my home again. I messaged an NHS friend about doing that, and only breathing through my nose and shopping with a wiped clean switch card once in shops, she seemed to think that was pretty effective at not spreading it if I have it, and not contracting it too. I could drive myself mad cleaning my door handles and hands and taps in a circular way, so I opted for that. I guess any improvement is better than none in being cleanly.

In reply to Removed User:

I was probably going on general cleanliness rather than covid19 in particular, so I'm sure you're right. 

In reply to Removed User:

bleach (chlorine) requires contact time with the virus to destroy it, about 30 mins, so a spray and wipe down might not be sufficient.  That is why chlorine in water supply treatment is effective against viruses as it has time to work its magic.   

Soap, water and mechanical action is almost instantaneous. 

In reply to Timmd:

I guess the other thing to consider if soap isn't used is that the virus could be transferred onto the towel you dry your hands with.

In reply to Timmd:

It does not matter if the water is hot or cold, it still works its magic combined with soap bubbles.

In reply to oldie:

I see, I'm pretty certain, though obviously not 100% if you're living in the same space are someone, no amount of cleaning is going to prevent the spread within a household spending 100% of the time together.

I could we be wrong though. Good luck

In reply to Removed User:

One litre of bleach plus one litre of washing up liquid in the washing machine. Sterilisers the whole house. 

In reply to Hat Dude:

My dog cleans the surfaces and oven handles and dogs tongues have antiseptic qualities.

In reply to Timmd:

I've considered using the cardboard tubes at the centre of a bog roll. One labelled for me and the other for my wife and located in separate positions so they can't contaminate anything. I'd use just mine to put over and operate the flush handle and then put it back in its place, Could be reused multiple times and never contaminate wife's hand and vv. Possibly could use similar for turning off lever taps after washing hands (they could be contaminated from a previous occasion or by self just after shopping). Can't think of a practical similar solution for every door handle in the house.

I don't actually do any of this myself yet. Basically I'm careful to use separate jacket for outings, remove it and shoes on entering house, good hand wash and then I assume house virion free (obviously not really correct). A major risk will be if one of us gets the disease and infects the other before symptoms appear or is asymptomatic.

Our neighbour's wife had all the symptoms and isolated ASAP in one room, rest of family uninfected (they were lucky in having more than one washroom and toilet which made matters simpler). 

In reply to Removed User:

The frequent and regular use of bleach is associated with increased incidence of COPD in cleaners and older house cleaners and should be avoided. Have you got the disease? If so the virus will slowly die over 9 days (hard surfaces) and more quickly on other surfaces as you recover and as long as you self-isolating this should be fine with a really good clean at the end.

The virus is enveloped and messing with that relatively delicate structure should be useful. So washing liquid sounds good to me and I cannot see why bleach would not work. In cats and dogs where Coronavirus infections are common a wide variety of disinfectants are used (e.g. http://www.abcdcatsvets.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ABCD_Fact_Sheet-FIP....)

In reply to Removed User:

1.5ml of bleach and 1.5ml of spirit vinegar to 1l water in a spray bottle. It came to my attention from a brewing podcast about cleaning chemicals I listened to and it can be used as a no rinse sanitiser for demi John's etc. Just make sure you don't mix bleach and vinegar directly but add them to the water so you don't make chlorine gas. 

In reply to SouthernSteve:

I'm not an expert but isn't the time for virion inactivation quoted on TV and elsewhere more optimistic? Probably based on the recent  "Aerosol and Surface Stability of SARS-CoV-2 as Compared with SARS-CoV-1"  report. I think cardboard 24hr, stainless steel and plastic up to 72 hr, copper very quick.

In reply to oldie:

I was quoting the SARS-CoV-1, hadn't seen anything peer-reviewed for the new one. I'll have a look after work. That would be better wouldn't it.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Exactly.

As of today I am also running a HEPA filter in our main common living area.  So many things point to viral load being an issue with this, so I do everything I can reasonably do to reduce viral load inside the house hoping it may slow down and desynchronise illness between myself and my partner (assuming one of us catches it outside the house when occasionally shopping), leaving us better placed to care for the children and reducing the severity of at least one our infections, or so I hope.

Its not like doing any of this is going to make it worse, although I’m a bit sore about breaking the HEPA unit out of its sealed box.  Given the data in fatalities in people 40+ I would rather overreact than underreact.  

All shopping is currently quarantined for 72 hours in an outbuilding.   I have just rigged a pulley system to suspend it from the ceiling after a small mouse got to the bread in the last lot.  I think the next few days are probably the last time I go shopping for a month.

I await the condescending thread on “home hygiene martyrs”.

In reply to oldie:

There are four in our house, surely you only need to clean when someone goes out and comes back in, or when something else enters you're house.

We're not leaving the house unless for shopping so we shop, come home, we get rid of most packaging (outside), we wash our hands and that's about it.

Since we only go out about once week I figure that's enough. Hopefully I'm not wrong.

In reply to Removed User:

we're not getting visitors so why clean the house - like working at home, why get dressed.

In reply to Removed User:

I use a leaf blower to clean the house.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

No. 90% and above ethanol is actually less effective than 70% ethanol in extracting proteins from lipid membranes, which is what inactivates the virus particles. Don't ask me for a citation, but it is what we do in molecular biology labs since times long forgotten.

Soapy water does the same. The advantage of ethanol is that you can spray it on and let it evaporate, which is why I have an old disinfectant spray bottle topped up with 70% ethanol in the car, and religiously wash my hands when coming home.

CB

In reply to cb294:

Is methanal equally effective?

I wonder if meths could be used to kill the virus?

In reply to Removed User:

Yes, it would dissolve the fatty outer layer of the virus just the same, provided the methanol level is > 70%.

You could also put hand sanitiser in a Trangia if you wanted.  For the record, Stroh 80 burns quite well in one!

In reply to Removed User:

50% potassium hydroxide.

In reply to Removed User:

Wire brush and Dettol.   It's been tough since we ran out of bog roll.

In reply to mark s:

I presume that was 'tongue in cheek' as a disinfectant as that is extremely damaging to skin - it will make a mush of keratin very quickly and absolutely devastating for the cornea in the event of a splash. We use 10% in the lab for mycology and even that needs some care. Although it is safer than when we used to use chloral hydrate added to liquid phenol and lactic acid.

In reply to Neil Williams:

You mean methylated spirits (not methanol) which is 95% ethanol 5% methanol. You don't want to be messing with neat methanol as it is much more toxic than ethanol.

It's a very common misconception tha methylated spirits are methanol. 

In reply to Removed User:

I'll ask my wife.  She's scrubbing the floors at the minute though.

In reply to Removed User:

Methanal is the aldehyde derived from Methanol, so would probably work for different reasons (protein denaturation). "Meths" is not Methanol, but Ethanol rendered non consumable by blending it with Methanol. Dilute that to 70%ish and it will work just fine.

CB

In reply to krikoman:

First I'm no expert, so please keep that in mind..

However the person that goes out, eg to shop, out could become infected. They would then take some days to produce virions (these can be shed  before BEFORE and AFTER they develop symptoms, and they can still produce virions if they are infected but have NO symptoms). So it is possible for surfaces (and the carrier's exhaled air) to become contaminated even if nobody has left the house for several days. I don't know the time range in days  before an infected person starts to shed virions, but there is quite a broad range (one TV quote I saw gave the AVERAGE time to develop symptoms as 5 days and virions might be shed a day or more before that).

There is also a possibility for mail etc to be contaminated of course. 

Edit. If its any comfort my wife and I are using slightly less precautions than you but being careful to take jacket and shoes off at door and washing hands well (and taking basic precautions while on daily walkies). There are just the two of us however, and there is a degree of risk. Its also quite likely that one of us would infect the other before they developed the symptoms especially as we sleep together.

In reply to Removed User:

With reluctance

In reply to SouthernSteve:

We have it at work and i wouldnt want it on my hands. If you wash it off instantly you are ok. Any more and thats it. I got it on my foot through a boot once. Not nice stuff.

In reply to oldie:

I presumed this, therefore all the cleaning in the world isn't likely to protect you, if one of you has it.

I'd say you're probably putting yourself at more risk going out for a daily walk than anything you could clean up from the house as a whole.

Obviously, I'm no expert either. We're limiting any contact with the outside world, as far as our home is concerned I'm treating that as clean enough.

I'll let you know

Good luck.

In reply to Baz P:makes little difference but if not too hot or cold evidence suggests that you are more likely to do it for long enough to be effective. Technique is also all important, many vids out there that show how to cover all surfaces of the hands. Soap was all we used when I worked on itu for a decade, all be it with moisturisers in. Preventing dry skin and any breaks in it is also very important

In reply to krikoman:

Actually I think my greatest risk is going shopping. Some of the supermarkets have narrow isles and people often squeeze past both each other and workers replenishing shelves. Items  handled by many previous shoppers go on and off tills, and cashiers handle items from many previous customers while wearing the same pair of gloves. They are gradually improving and all  now have a "one person out one in" policy to avoid overcrowding. We sound much less fastidious than you. Keep safe.