/ Vertical Dance Filming

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Hi everyone, we just wanted to post a heads up that we will be filming a Vertical Dance Film on the fins at Sharpnose near Bude in Cornwall on the 21st of August (potentially also 22nd depending on the weather) and so will be rigging and hanging from these cliffs all day. We are really sorry if this causes any inconvenience but hopefully by letting you know it should’t. We are super excited as its our first time rigging from this particular cliff!

Many thanks,

Charlotte, Becky and Grace

9
DancingOnRock 08 Aug 2019
In reply to Apex Aerial Dance:

Nice. Good luck, post some video here afterwards. 

Michael Hood 09 Aug 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Trust you to respond on this thread

DancingOnRock 09 Aug 2019
In reply to Michael Hood:

Have a look at Bandaloop on YouTube. Some very creative work on buildings. 

Will be interested to see what it looks like on Cornish rock. Very dramatic backdrops. 

Robert Durran 09 Aug 2019
In reply to Apex Aerial Dance:

I'm afraid that my local abseiling club has already booked Sharpnose for those days. Along with experienced riggers on all faces of the fins, we shall have large numbers of beginners who are super excited about their first steps in the sport. You may wish to consider going elsewhere. I believe Stanage is currently free.

19
Michael Hood 09 Aug 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Must admit I'd never heard of Vertical Dance, had to Google it. Cool

Edit: Just watched another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5RGr4zsyHY

Just beautiful, having the glass building acting as a mirror, and being able to do slo-mo, stunning.

Post edited at 11:03
teh_mark 09 Aug 2019
In reply to Apex Aerial Dance:

Genuinely curious: what do you plan to do if people turn up and start [climbing/abseiling] regardless? Presumably you're not going to want them inadvertently forming part of the mise en  scène of your film...but they have every right to be there.

Personally, I think it sounds fascinating and fantastic and would love to see the final result. But I would say that, working in theatre and all!

elsewhere 09 Aug 2019
In reply to teh_mark:

> Genuinely curious: what do you plan to do if people turn up and start [climbing/abseiling] regardless?

I think they just have to rely on courtesy and goodwill like any filming in a public place.

Rob Exile Ward 11 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

Why be so mean? It all sounds a bit weird to me, but so long as nothing is damaged then a bit of well publicised inconvenience is a small price to pay to allow people to do their creative thing.

1
Robert Durran 11 Aug 2019
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> Why be so mean? 

Not being mean. Just raising an obvious discussion point which I am sure occured to most people reading the OP.

8
eroica64 11 Aug 2019
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Huh, I'll do my creative thing in your bedroom at midnight then. See how you like that!

To assume you can sort of book a crag for vertical dancing is preposterous. I'd encourage lots of people to turn up and spoil their self-indulgent fun.

It's like chalk pavement artists saying you shouldn't walk on their drawings. Why not? It's a pavement dickhead. You can't arbitrarily cordon off a bit for your private use.

23
teh_mark 11 Aug 2019
In reply to eroica64:

> To assume you can sort of book a crag for vertical dancing is preposterous. I'd encourage lots of people to turn up and spoil their self-indulgent fun.

Come on, don't be a mean-spirited cockerel. Climbers don't have a right to the crags, and yet you'd be a bit miffed if Robert's abseiling club rigged up all their lines down the *** classic you've wanted to lead for the past decade on the day you've finally managed to visit the crag. What then? They have equal right to be there - but I doubt you'd be too happy if you politely mentioned you wanted to climb the line and they told you to f*ck off with your self-indulgent fun.

The aesthetic of Lower Sharpnose isn't exactly something you can recreate other than by actually using Lower Sharpnose.

Robert Durran 11 Aug 2019
In reply to teh_mark:

> Climbers don't have a right to the crags, and yet you'd be a bit miffed if Robert's abseiling club rigged up all their lines down the *** classic you've wanted to lead for the past decade on the day you've finally managed to visit the crag.

I don't think it is a question of climbers having a greater right to a crag than anyone else. What is in question is whether any group of people (climbers, dancers, whatever) should effectively tell/request others to stay away from a popular crag they wish to monopolise for a whole day or longer.

I think maybe if I'd driven 500 miles down to Cornwall, psyched for Sharpnose (as I would be) and on the one day of my week when weather, tides and conditions came right, I arrived to find the crag taken over by a group, I would be somewhat miffed.

1
teh_mark 11 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

I fully agree, which is why I asked what they planned to do if they ran into that problem. I've had bad experiences in the past of film crews with a bad attitude expecting you'll put yourself out for them, and so I was curious. Lower Sharpnose is obviously a significant crag that could easily attract people from a long way away, so it's not unlikely that problems might arise if climbers arrive to find the crag unclimbable.

But the attitude that we have more right to use the crags than any other demographic is arrogant and dangerous, in my humble opinion. A little bit of courtesy and willing to engage in discussion goes a long way, and attitudes like 'I'd encourage lots of people to turn up and spoil their self-indulgent fun' are sad bordering on pathetic.

It would of course be a lot easier to discuss it if the OP came back to, well, discuss it.

Tyler 11 Aug 2019
In reply to eroica64:

> It's like chalk pavement artists saying you shouldn't walk on their drawings. Why not? It's a pavement dickhead. You can't arbitrarily cordon off a bit for your private use.

No but I'd probably try and not walk over them because, well, just politeness and respect really I guess. But if that's not your gig there's nothing they can or will do if you choose to walk over it and call them a dick head. 

DancingOnRock 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

That’s always a risk. At least they have had the presence of mind to try and warn people well in advance. 

The more usual tactic for groups is to turn up at a crag before 7am and lay siege to it by installing top ropes. 

Somebody driving 500 miles to tick off a climb with no backup plan for anther climb or activity is naive   

4
Robert Durran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Somebody driving 500 miles to tick off a climb with no backup plan for anther climb or activity is naive.

Of course I would have a back up plan - in my experience, getting weather, tides and non-greasy conditions to coincide in Cornwall can be pretty difficult even without the additional factor of groups "booking" entire crags!

1
deepsoup 12 Aug 2019
In reply to eroica64:

> Huh, I'll do my creative thing in your bedroom at midnight then. See how you like that!

It's interesting what you've done there.  Somebody's 'bedroom at midnight' is very much their own personal, private space.  On the face of it your mean-spirited post is a complaint that these artists are treating the crag as their own private space, effectively acting as if they own the place.  But if this is the analogy that springs to mind as particularly apt for you, are you sure you're not actually miffed because you think you own the place?

> It's like chalk pavement artists...   You can't arbitrarily cordon off a bit for your private use.

They can't, they know they cant.  They just have to rely on courtesy and goodwill, as 'elsewhere' said above, and work around it as best they can when they encounter someone who finds that too much of an imposition.

DancingOnRock 12 Aug 2019
In reply to eroica64:

‘book’, ‘preposterous’?

Really? Someone forewarns the climbing community that they’ll be rigging ropes mid week for a day, maybe two, on one face and that’s your reaction.

Get a grip. Think about how your reaction could affect their will to be engaging in the future. They’re just showing a bit of curtesy.

Post edited at 10:09
LucaC 12 Aug 2019
In reply to eroica64:

Isn't rock climbing the absolute epitome of 'self-indulgent fun'?! 

Sharpnose is open to the public so why shouldn't anyone do whatever activity they want to there. Don't be grumpy.

Robert Durran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to LucaC:

> Sharpnose is open to the public so why shouldn't anyone do whatever activity they want to there.

Of course they can, but that is missing the point.

There are many things I am within my legal rights to do, but whether I should do them is another matter.

3
cb294 12 Aug 2019
In reply to LucaC:

Yes it is public, so should at all times be accessible to everyone. Any activity that monopolizes such a place, whether it is a crag, a stretch of river, or a beach or is thus antisocial arseholery of the highest order. 

Makes no difference whether this is for "vertical dancing", rigging topropes for a whole club (rather than splitting into smaller groups), or occupying the whole crag (rather than a small section only) with your hypothetical abseil club. 

CB

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simondgee 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

You mean something like...
>>Hi everyone, we just wanted to post a heads up that we will be climbing at Malham in Yorkshire on the 21st of August (potentially also 22nd depending on the weather) and so will be frigging and hanging from these cliffs all day. We are really sorry if this causes any inconvenience but hopefully by letting you know it should’t. We are super excited as its our first time frigging from this particular cliff!<<
?

Blanche DuBois 12 Aug 2019
In reply to eroica64:

> To assume you can sort of book a crag for vertical dancing is preposterous. I'd encourage lots of people to turn up and spoil their self-indulgent fun.

Christ on a stick, there's always one isn't there?  Or in this case two.

> It's like chalk pavement artists saying you shouldn't walk on their drawings. Why not? It's a pavement dickhead. You can't arbitrarily cordon off a bit for your private use.I

I bet you're a real hit at parties.

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DancingOnRock 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

If you went to a park and put down a picnic blanket in the shade under a nice big oak tree and started eating your picnic, would that be considered antisocial because you’re stopping other people from having a picnic in the shade? 

Some people are just looking for issues to complain about. 

Are you planning on climbing the fins at Shortnose next Wednesday or know of anyone who is? Or is this just trolling for the sake of hypothetical argument?

Post edited at 12:10
Robert Durran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> If you went to a park and put down a picnic blanket in the shade under a nice big oak tree and started eating your picnic, would that be considered antisocial because you’re stopping other people from having a picnic in the shade? 

If it was the only shady tree in the park and I took up all of it's shadiness and made it clear that I'd rather nobody else tried to get a bit of it's shade, then yes, I think one could make a case for it being a bit antisocial.

> Are you planning on climbing the fins at Shortnose next Wednesday or know of anyone who is?

Yes: https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/lifts+partners/partner_wanted_for_sharpnose_aug_20-23rd-708664   Of course one could argue that the Vertical Dancers' post has helped save them a wasted journey. On the other hand, if this was their only chance to climb at this brilliant crag, one could understand them being a bit miffed.

> Or is this just trolling for the sake of hypothetical argument?

By trolling do you mean "instigating a discussion in which a variety of defensible views are being aired and which is just the sort of discussion appropriate on a climbing discussion forum"?

1
WaterMonkey 12 Aug 2019
In reply to cb294:

> Yes it is public, so should at all times be accessible to everyone. Any activity that monopolizes such a place, whether it is a crag, a stretch of river, or a beach or is thus antisocial arseholery of the highest order. 

> Makes no difference whether this is for "vertical dancing", rigging topropes for a whole club (rather than splitting into smaller groups), or occupying the whole crag (rather than a small section only) with your hypothetical abseil club. 

> CB


Sh!t the bed! I bet you're beside yourself during the London Marathon, Tour de France et al !

1
WaterMonkey 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I arrived to find the crag taken over by a group, I would be somewhat miffed.

You poor little poppet

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cb294 12 Aug 2019
In reply to WaterMonkey:

Yes, I am not too happy with our local Marathon blocking the cyclepath for about 10km and then being too lazy to remove the barriers by Wednesday when the license stipulated that they would have to be removed by Sunday evening. 

Public areas need to be accessible, and commercial events monopolizing crags is out of order.

CB

3
James Mann 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Apex Aerial Dance:

Am replying to the OP rather than getting into the squabbling about perceived right and wrong. Having made a few films on sea cliffs and being a climber in the SW I can see things from both points of view.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjo-q3rq_3jAhW7ThUIHQsdCvcQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thebmc.co.uk%2Fsea-cliff-climbing-skills-bmc-tv-cornwall&usg=AOvVaw2ccm9NRaNSeec4mZMJV2_l

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=2ahUKEwj8p6vcqP3jAhXbgVwKHVbEAeIQFjACegQIBhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ukclimbing.com%2Farticles%2Ffeatures%2Fmoonraker_-_the_first_ascent_of_the_old_redoubt-9899&usg=AOvVaw2sVst0cxM7Y5MYixwf5ss6

Rigging can be a tricky process, time and tide wait for no-one and the weather and sea can be uncooperative. I have always made a point of not advertising and asking for 'permission' on UKC. Having said this, we have waited until people have finished routes before filming and have never monopolised a section of crag for a whole day. Leaving rigging in place whilst you are not using it is a shitty thing to do if other people are there to climb. 

The end product of a film is to share it with others. This sharing of places can be inspiring or in the case of the BMC films, hopefully useful to others. The making of films in our wild places should be done with respect for the natural environment, flexibility and empathy for others who wish to enjoy those places.

Perhaps the OP could address some of these points and put some of these concerns to rest.

James

Post edited at 13:35
DancingOnRock 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

11:37 this morning by a recently joined poster?

Thats a very convenient coincidence and how lucky that you spotted it and were on hand to reply within 5 minutes of it being posted. Well done. 

3
DancingOnRock 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

> If it was the only shady tree in the park and I took up all of it's shadiness and made it clear that I'd rather nobody else tried to get a bit of it's shade, then yes, I think one could make a case for it being a bit antisocial

For the purpose of this discussion let’s keep it like for like. Imagine it’s a big park and there are lots of other trees.

Robert Durran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> 11:37 this morning by a recently joined poster?

> Thats a very convenient coincidence and how lucky that you spotted it and were on hand to reply within 5 minutes of it being posted. Well done.

I see absolutely no reason to believe it is not a genuine post.

1
Robert Durran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> For the purpose of this discussion let’s keep it like for like. Imagine it’s a big park and there are lots of other trees.

In that case would need to be the best, biggest and shadiest tree for a pretty long way in any direction, not just one tree among a lot of similar ones in the reasonably convenient vicinity for a picnic; this is Sharpnose being monopolised after all.

Post edited at 14:34
1
deepsoup 12 Aug 2019
In reply to cb294:

> Yes it is public, so should at all times be accessible to everyone. Any activity that monopolizes such a place, whether it is a crag, a stretch of river, or a beach or is thus antisocial arseholery of the highest order. 

> Makes no difference whether this is for "vertical dancing", rigging topropes for a whole club (rather than splitting into smaller groups), or occupying the whole crag (rather than a small section only) with your hypothetical abseil club.

Robert Durran didn't say his abseiling club is just hypothetical, so how did you know?  Ah yes, of course, because an abseiling club is not really a thing.  It's a lazy stereotype put forward to evoke maximum outrage.

Here's what we're being invited to assume:

There are hordes of them.  (Apex Aerial Dance consists of three women.)

They will monopolise the entire crag.  (As opposed to one face, a handful of routes tops.)

They'll be at it constantly, and won't budge for anyone.  (This kind of performance is pretty intense work, they're going to be taking regular breaks, but god forbid we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they'll be happy to pull their ropes up out of the way while they're resting and let people keen to get on a particular route get it ticked eh?)

They're arrogantly trying to "book" the crag, are entirely ignorant of the usual ethics of climbing, and don't particularly care anyway.  (I know a few aerialists, and have met a fair few more at odd times through my work.  They often are rock climbers as well, as it happens, and for those who aren't the ethics and mindset associated with climbing, including trad climbing, generally seem perfectly natural and easy to understand.)

Their fun is lazy and somehow inferior.  I mean they're portly and out of shape.  There's no real effort or skill involved, they just turn up and "hut hut hut" bounce down the crag in their big boots pretending to be the SAS storming an embassy.  (Jesus, I'm not sure this stereotype is even fair to the abseilers, but as for the aerialists - filming their performance will be the culmination of a *lot* of work, training, effort and heartache.  Also probably the investment of a fair bit of money, and like young pro-climbers these tend to be people who are habitually pretty much penniless.)

Oh, and for your information..

> I'd encourage lots of people to turn up and spoil their self-indulgent fun.

(From a post a little way above yours)

This is antisocial arseholery of the highest order.

1
Robert Durran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> Robert Durran didn't say his abseiling club is just hypothetical, so how did you know?  Ah yes, of course, because an abseiling club is not really a thing.  It's a lazy stereotype put forward to evoke maximum outrage.

No, a humorous stereotype intended to gently stimulate debate.

> Here's what we're being invited to assume:

> There are hordes of them.  (Apex Aerial Dance consists of three women.)

> They will monopolise the entire crag.  (As opposed to one face, a handful of routes tops.)

> They'll be at it constantly, and won't budge for anyone.

We don't know what to assume, but, in the absence of any further forthcoming information it would probably not be worth the risk of turning up at the crag that day and expect  not to be pretty frustrated.

> Their fun is lazy and somehow inferior.  I mean they're portly and out of shape.  There's no real effort or skill involved, they just turn up and "hut hut hut" bounce down the crag in their big boots pretending to be the SAS storming an embassy.

Now you're just making stuff up; nobody has suggested any of this.

4
deepsoup 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

On the subject of parks, have you heard of a small open-air Shakespearian outfit called the Handlebards?  There are two companies of them (one consisting of three women, the other three men), and they tour their entire production around the country by bicycle.

https://www.handlebards.com/

I'm mentioning them here in part because I think they're rather wonderful, so the above is a bit of a plug to those who might like to see them. 

But also for your benefit, because while they mostly play in private spaces (sports clubs, gardens, stately homes and the like) and charge admission, they still have a couple of shows left on the tour where they'll be playing in a public park and passing a hat around afterwards.  I mean how f*cking dare they!  You and eroica64 will probably be keen to come and exercise your right to stomp through the middle of their play.  Perhaps bring the dog to curl one out on the 'stage' while they're trying to do a love scene.  That'll show em, self-indulgent thespians coming round here with their 'art'.

Post edited at 15:35
DancingOnRock 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

One man’s “gently stimulating debate” is another man’s “trolling”.

Robert Durran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

>But also for your benefit, because while they mostly play in private spaces (sports clubs, gardens, stately homes and the like) and charge admission, they still have a couple of shows left on the tour where they'll be playing in a public park and passing a hat around afterwards.  I mean how f*cking dare they!  You and eroica64 will probably be keen to come and exercise your right to stomp through the middle of their play.  Perhaps bring the dog to curl one out on the 'stage' while they're trying to do a love scene.  That'll show em, self-indulgent thespians coming round here with their 'art'.

I don't want to comment on eroica64's views expressed in this thread, but I don't think I've said anything to suggest I would behave in anything like this manner. I think the strongest term I've used is to say I might be a "bit miffed" if my day's climbing were spoilt.

Post edited at 15:30
1
Robert Durran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> One man’s “gently stimulating debate” is another man’s “trolling”.

To me "trolling" suggests, as best, deliberately winding people up for the entertainment and, at worst, to be downright malicious. I have done nothing of the sort. I honestly don't understand how anyone could see this as anything other than a valid and legitimate discussion appropriate to this forum. I havn't even expressed any particularly strong views!

1
deepsoup 12 Aug 2019
In reply to James Mann:

> Perhaps the OP could address some of these points and put some of these concerns to rest.

A well balanced, thoughtful post.  But you couldn't really blame them if it turns out they don't fancy revisiting this train-wreck of a thread. 

I mean on the one hand UKC at it's best can be slightly wonderful and quite the fount of all knowledge, but on a bad day it's the online embodiment of the sort of self-righteous belligerent character who would stomp through the middle of a piece of pavement art and boot the artist's upturned hat half way up the high street just to prove a point.

I see no reason not to assume they will be entirely competent, courteous and professional (rigging and otherwise), but if you fear not you could always drop them an email to see if they'd appreciate your advice.

deepsoup 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I don't think I've said anything to suggest I would behave in anything like this manner.

Yes, you're quite right, you haven't and I'm being rather unfair to you there.  Sorry about that.

Regarding your "humorous stereotype" though, if you think that was funny perhaps humour is not really your thing.

1
Robert Durran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> Yes, you're quite right, you haven't and I'm being rather unfair to you there.  Sorry about that.

Thanks.

> Regarding your "humorous stereotype" though, if you think that was funny perhaps humour is not really your thing.

Maybe not, but it was an honest attempt.

1
ebdon 12 Aug 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

Theres been a lot of pretty obscure analogies on this thread so sorry for another one but I cant help thinking what would everyone say if I posted that I was planning to go sharpnose this Wednesday, I was going to try Fay, I am going to find it tough and will probably fall off a lot and take aaaggges so could everyone keep off please?

I appreciate that the OP has the best intentions (and frankly I don't think this will be an issue mid week at sharpnose) but I guess this kind of crag 'reservation' really isn't the done think in the uk and few would want it to be

Fakey Rocks 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Apex Aerial Dance:

I think this needs more advertising... This particular part / page of UKC is perhaps the least likely page on UKC that someone planning a visit there will pick up on your notice! But then again do you really want it to be on Rocktalk page where the debate could potentially become awful to witness!

I've only been to this crag twice.. The first time had about 3 pairs of climbers, waiting to be sure the weather would settle, 1 pair lost patience, the others got almost a full day in.

The 2nd visit was fairly busy with great weather + about 5 pairs of climbers, so for an out of the way crag, it certainly can draw people in, and they will come from far...1st time for me was just a day trip, 2nd time my partner came from Essex, but we had a couple of days.

You are doing this in the middle if the summer holidays! At least you chose a weekday (s), Weds (+ Thurs).

They might be making their 1st or 2nd visit and only have the Rockfax Wcc guide. There are optional crags in that guide, but after driving off the main rd down country lanes to Sharp nose, then upto half hr ish walk in, to find you can't get access and need to walk back out, head back out on country lanes back to main rd and off to somewhere else, could easily cut 2hrs or more from your day, and you might no longer have the alternative options due to tides.

Can you be more specific about which fin(s) you intend to use, and which side, north or south facing?

No doubt you will be on the less steep side of whichever fin?

Being on the South Finn would be least disruptive to climbers.

Being on the North fin probably most disruptive, most people access the base by abbing down this one.

I appreciate that this works the other way around too, climbers potentially disrupting your plans. But you could expect climbers to arrive, but it's less likely you would expect an aerial dance group to arrive.

It may well be that no climbers turn up at all.

Do you intend to allow climbers who don't want to have to go elsewhere to still use the main ab line down the north fin, to access other fins, or will that ruin your rigging plans?

Maybe if you put your notice on Rocktalk page, Destinations page, and Lifts + Partners page, you could at least be getting a wider audience. Perhaps you've already done some Facebook page post which can be shared?...but I suppose there's a lot of climbing group Facebook pages and someone heading there won't see it!

Some people will park at Duckpool beach car park...put a notice up there so they at least know the score + can turn back earlier. Some people park on the rd up by the satellite dishes, ...there is one main path in from there that leads to a stile on the coast cliff path... Put a notice on the stile or gate back at the rd.

There may be climbers who will turn up who don't use UKC nor Facebook etc, and couldn't therefore find out.

It's a long way to drive, and I'd be super peeved if I was on a day off work, on just a day trip, + couldn't access any thing there.

Post edited at 16:49
1
Michael Hood 13 Aug 2019

If I was reasonably local, I think I'd pop down for some free ariel entertainment, and maybe get a route in as well

jon 13 Aug 2019
In reply to Fakey Rocks:

A very reasonable and informative post. I don't understand why anyone would dislike it. 

1

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