UKH

I got my booster jab yesterday, but the system they have in place seems rather odd:

Booking reference & time checked on the door, which leads through to a guy at a desk.

This guy checks booking reference, name & date of birth, then asks if I have my NHS number (otherwise he'd look it up and write it down for me). Sent to the next desk.

This desk asks for my NHS number, and checks my date of birth, name and address. On to the next desk.

They check my date of birth, name & address, then ask if I have any symptoms or if I had two specific reactions to my previous jabs. On to the next desk.

They check my date of birth, name and address, then ask for vaccination consent, and send me to the station to get jabbed.

On the way out I'm handed two leaflets, one titled "read this before your vaccination"(!) and another explaining why we should get a booster jab! Bit late for either of these by now!

Anyone any idea why there's so many steps to the process, rather than checking you on the way in and one person asking you all the questions instead of one new question at each desk? My best guess is that it's to keep long queues moving, not that there was any queue at all yesterday.

A similar situation for my first two jabs, but not my booster.

No wonder the NHS spends so much money and does so little.

Asking for consent was baffling - I’ve driven here and I’m sat in front of you rolling up my sleeve… just jab me…

That does sound unnecessarily complicated. For all my vaccinations, there has been a single registration desk taking the necessary details, a small team of helpers to take each person to the  next available vaccinator, and then the vaccinator gave the leaflets after administering the vaccine. 

This is in Scotland, so it seems there may be variations across different countries in the UK. 

much less faff for me - had mine at a local GP surgery. Presented myself to the reception desk, where they asked for my name and booking reference no. Was then shown to a room where a doctor asked me two or three questions, eg. any allergies, and I swear had jabbed me as the word 'no' was still on its way out of my mouth, then to another room where someone took some personal details to record that I'd been done. Very quick - and this was in England.

Checking your name, date of birth and address at each medical appointment is pretty standard, you wouldn't want to be giving the wrong patient the wrong drug, I think that would probably irritate people! 

And again, confirming you consent to undergoing a medical procedure before going ahead with it is I think a legal requirement. Probably a bit annoying if doctors and nurses go around performing invasive procedures on unconsenting people.

The rest of the beaurocracy sounds a bit ott and sounds like it might be a hastily put together site run by people who have been recently corralled from other jobs. I can think of worse things to have to experience. 

Just name, DoB address and instantly to the cubicle.

OK this was a second attempt after a computer user error first time round but the nearest to BS was an are you Scottish question. 

My booster experience couldn't have been more different. Local GP surgery. Walked straight in, no queue at all. Doctor asked my name and jabbed me without even getting me to sit down. Was in and out of the building in about 30 seconds. Wonderful.

my GP was great too... booked by text and then preprinted details on arrival... jabbed and out in less than 5 mins... 

its been far simplier for me-- one desk each time- on all 3 occasions done at huge vaccination centres.

Maybe they were just training people up.

That sounds like trying to do anything in Russia! They love pointless paperwork. They would all have a rubber stamp though and you would get your paperwork stamped at every station too!

I turned up to work, went into the lounge where they confirmed I was staff rather than resident! I presume they must have asked my name, but I don't remember (maybe work gave them our details? Don't remember, it was ages ago now). Flu and booster done and away. Super simple!

I didn't give any details to anyone other than the lady who actually put the needle in my arm. Unfortunately having gone through the palaver of answering questions she realised she was using internet explorer, but the system only works properly in chrome so we had to do it all again.

I can see the appeal of having someone at the door checking you actually have an appointment, it would be frustrating to get to the front of the queue and realise you have the wrong day or centre.

In manufacturing there is concept of feeding the bottleneck; that you set up your process such that whichever step has the least capacity (probably administering the jabs) has a continuous stream of inputs. It doesn't really matter whether steps before or afterwards are efficient, so long as they don't cause blockages. Equally I imagine there were not small buffer queues between the desks in the series? If so this is what we call a synchronous process, and it only works if the durations of the processes are matched. If it takes 30 seconds to jab someone then that is the maximum sensible time that you should spend at any prior step in the process. If taking all your details in one step would take longer than that then splitting it up makes sense. Remember what matters is not how long you spend in the system, but the number of people they can process per unit time.

Which is not to say that this was being run efficiently or optimally, but there are some things about production lines which are counterintuitive.

For 1st and 2nd jab  was at a shared gp setup so large throughput. Someone was on the door asking for surname and then just sent to a queue to give name/dob based on that.

Then onto the jab. At which point they did ask for name again to stick it on the card and gave a quick talk through before asking for consent.

Booster was smaller setup (at a pharmacy) just one person asking for name/dob and quick talk through and then ask for consent.

Whilst the consent would seem implicit it does seem sensible from a medical position to get it explictly confirmed.

So the reason in your case is whoever setup that particular centre decided on those rules.

Just had my booster this morning at local hospital... 
Checked at gate to ensure I had an appt..
Entered into room, where I was met by another person and had to fill out a form, entering all the details that are on my NHS app, and answering about a dozen checkbox questions.. 
Passed to a nurse who then asked me more questions and checked the form. 
Moved into another room to be met by another person. 
She then led me to a booth where I was jabbed by another person! 

It was a bit of a laughable situation! 
 

Had my booster on Sunday, to be honest I was quite impressed with the organisation. Marshals directed you to a parking space and asked you to wait in the car, then when ready they knocked on your window so you pretty much walked straight in without queuing / standing out in the cold, check name / date of birth then over to seat for jab and then back out to car to do the 15 min wait.

Only mild annoyance was having to drive to Basingstoke, so 45 mins drive each way.

Got my booster at a big city centre operation (Nottingham), it was incredibly well organised, someone checking your details at the door and then checking you were the right person before the needle going in (a check who you are and that you consent seems a pretty essential step before administering any medicine!).  I barely had time to roll my sleeve up before they jabbed me.  The amount of people they were processing was really impressive (a mixture of army, NHS and volunteers. Its laughable to think the likes of Capita or Serco being anything near as good.

My second dose was like that, it seemed even more bizarre because I was the only patient  being passed from desk to desk as I proceeded through 2 huge marquees.

The first was a simple matter of handing in  my pre-filled form, joining a queue, jab in arm and walk straight out no explanation or paperwork offered. Apart from a card with a batch number, I had to asl which vaccine I had received.

It Edinburgh at a large centre it was one desk near the door, checking your appointment, then a queue, followed by a desk where they checked details, asked if you wanted a flu jag too and handed out leaflets, then the jag.

The extra desk at the door checking appointments will let them control how many people are queuing inside the building so it can stay distanced.  If it gets super busy any excess queue will be outside.  Keeping the paperwork aspect separate from the vaccination will let the people trained to do the jagging get through more per day.

I went to the main Leeds center at Elland Road.

To join the queue you show your booking to the guy in the hi viz vest, then show it again to get through the door.

First cubicle confirms your booking, confirms name, address, dob and your given a form.

Second cubicle you fill in the form and a nurse (who is working between 5 cu icles) takes the form, reviews it, confirms name, address, dob, asks a few questions about medical conditions etc and gives you a slip of paper.

Third cubicle, takes the slip, confirms name, dob, jabby jabby, gives you the slip back with the time your allowed to leave on it.

Wait on chairs in waiting area for release time, show slip to high viz on door and leave.

All a bit of a pain but I would rather they check and way better than catching covid to me. 

That sounds about five times more bureaucratic than I had it on all of mine:

Door - check booking reference (but this didn't happen for the booster)

Desk - Date of Birth and other details

Vaccination station - Confirm date of birth and name to make sure they're talking to the right person and jab.

This is at three different centres in Nottingham, where was yours?

An awful lot of it, if not all of it depending on venue, is volunteers.  Thus there's no financial cost of the bureaucracy as such.

You see this sort of thing in other volunteer contexts too - World Scout Jamborees are terrible for it.

Posted this on another thread but:

Arrived to large vaccination centre in Glasgow. Queued for a few minutes as I'd arrived before opening. Showed my booking email, confirmed name DOB etc.

Walked straight to station, the Optometrist (I will be disappointed if I don't get a load of eye/sight related puns thrown at me) checked on his iPad what I'd had before and where, name DOB etc, told me the brand of vaccination, side effects, slight risk of myocarditis etc and "Ok to go ahead?"

Basically in and out in well under 10 minutes, though I guess it's all still appointments up here rather than drop ins.

Ha ha ha. I'm assuming you don't do anything in healthcare...... 

All my jabs, someone has checked your booking at the door.

Person doing the jabbing has pulled up my records on the computer and checked personal details. Gone through side effects and risks then jabbed me and updated my records.

First two jabs were at a small community centre, second was at my GP. (Both England)

Had my booster this morning. Same procedure for all. The booster was at a village hall in Somerset where I was the only punter when I arrived, the others at a big vaccination centre. One person checks the booking code, then in the village hall it was 5 paces to the vaccination area where you get the talk on side effects and questioned on allergies before getting the needle and a piece of paper with vaccine batch number. Only difference at the vaccination centre was hundreds of punters and 100s of metres walking and a bit longer waiting. No complaints, though. All seemed very well organised.

I expect they have to ask for consent as protection against getting sued, so I wouldn't blame the NHS, rather the legal system in this country that allows scum-of-the-earth no-win-no-fee legal types chasing the medical profession for whatever they can get. I think I was asked something like, are you okay for me to go ahead with the jab, but didn't take much notice. Anyway, the tone of your posts suggests you're someone with private healthcare provided by your employer and disdain at having to rub shoulder with the proles using the NHS -- just idle speculation, on my part.

Same here. Didn't even have to sit down to wait - straight in, sat down, checklist of a few questions, booster in left arm, flu jab in right, and then out of the rear exit and home again.  Literally about 20 minutes from leaving the house to getting back again

The many, many volunteers helping make the vaccinations possible will be mighty heartened by your comments.

The volunteers have done/ do a fantastic job.

The fact you have to give your details twice seems symptomatic of a wider bureaucratic malaise which is nothing to do with volunteers.

Can you imagine Amazon putting in place a checkout system where you have to input your address and card details twice? Of course not. Well run vs badly run.

Thanks folks. I had no issue giving my name etc. and consent, just thought having to do it at several separate stations before answering their next question seemed a bit over the top when they could have asked me all the questions in one go. Each desk seemed to be in a different portakabin with a long snaking queue between them (with no-one in the queue except me!).

This was a big NHS-run centre in a car park in Chichester (currently being doubled in size as they craned a pile more portakabins in). Same process for my 2nd jab, but the 1st was at a Pharmacy-run centre which went much more smoothly.

The most amusing bit for my 2nd jab was the guy who was looking up people's NHS numbers from his system at his desk and getting them to write it down on their booking form/phone so they could read it back out to the lady on the next desk where she typed it back into the system. 

The fact that  multiple people have mentioned the centres they have gone to didnt have the same process is clear evidence this is not the case.

Because that is a close equivalent isnt it? Can you imagine what would happen if the vaccination centres had accidently pushed a change which locked out not just the patients but also the staff from the vaccination centres and basically had to end up breaking in.

As AWS did recently and by some accounts seem to be doing today.

By NHS what do you mean?

GP consortium or what?

I've no idea, just a whole load of portakabins in a car park. I booked my jab via the national booking system. I assume it was a centrally run one rather than a GP-consortium as it is a different city to where my GP is and I thought the GP consortium ones just did their own patients? My GP is only dealing with vulnerable patients, everyone else has to book on the national system. I could be totally wrong here.

I was jabbed in the morning, and then got a text from my GPs surgery in the afternoon informing me that I was now eligible to get a jab and I should book it on the national system straight away. I got a reminder for it this morning too!

That does sound complicated.

In all my three vaccinations I was asked my name and NI number when I entered the building and asked for name and date of birth when I went to one of the cubicles, along with did I have any symptoms of COVID. On the second and third jabs they also asked if I'd had any reaction to previous vaccinations.

Dave

Considering it's not what happens at other centres, yeah, it very much does something to do with the throw-together nature of these volunteer run centres.

I am not sure. My booster was via the central system and was at a pharmacy

I am not sure there is any "centrally run" as such. After all the NHS doesnt really work that way its possible you would get one run by the local hospital trusts or whatever the latest top level organisation for an area is (for an organisation which alledgedly cant be changed it doesnt half change a lot).

Much more efficient for all of my jabs. I volunteered at a big local vaccine centre a few times just after it opened in January. There were some noticeable inefficiencies in their systems, but they soon got them ironed out. 

Or indeed actually know about anything.....

I'm guessing this is from your anecdotal experience or do you have actual knowledge of the numerous processes within  the NHS?

Informed consent nothing to do with getting sued, ambulance chasers etc. It's medical ethics.

To answer VVswhatsisname, most vaccination centres are administrated by volunteers. My 2 initial jabs were incredibly fast and efficient, booster was a bit slower as the volunteers weren't quite up to speed, but still fairly fast.

Straight in for me, name and DOB to 1st lady, given a form -> next lady, name + DOB -> take this to her, jab, "off you f*ck sir!"

About 5 minutes from getting out the car to getting back in.

Just playing devils advocate - Amazon have probably had at least a decade, a couple of billion dollars and an army of professional system designers working on their system while the NHS have had to be a bit reactive to an ever changing pandemic.

Having to give your details twice in return for a free and potentially life saving vaccine which is being rolled out to millions in a very short space of time does smack a wee bit of 'first-world problems'

968,665 booster and third jabs and jags today!  Bloody impressive. 

The system at our GP led vaccination centre goes something like this:

1. you make an appointment with date & time.

2. you turn up & car park attendant asks you for your name & they enter into computer

3. You arrive at centre and your pre-printed form is already on desk to be handed to you, first checking your name & DoB. The time was not important i.e if you turned up early we jabbed you! 

4. You join a short Q and are directed to a vaccinator 

5. Vaccinator checks name & DoB and asks clinical questions (allergies etc)

6. Jabbed

7. they sign your bit of paper add vaccine details & batch number.

8. The form is collected and goes to data entry clerk to go onto computer and then onto your own medical record.

You wait 15 mins (as appropriate) and go home happy.

They were getting through 1200-1400 people a day with about 20 vaccinators and very short waits.

Our problem was having enough car parking space.

My appointment was checked at the entrance.

The next point established I was there for a booster. That directed me to one of two processing areas.

The next point was talk through and injection.

Each of those three steps seemed entirely reasonable to a smooth flowing system.

The only issue I had was the information sheet handed to me concerning the Moderna vaccine, which assumed it was being given for primary vaccination, not a booster, so it talked about getting the second jab. Now I know it was a booster, and I don't (yet) need to get another jab, but if you're performing that many boosters, it's a good idea to have specific information sheets printed so as not to confuse people.

Dunno why your place had so many steps. My process in central Scotland (where I don't even live):

- Turn up without appointment and wait in line for 20 minutes.

- Person on desk checks DOB, name, NHS number.

- Person in booth asks allergy/medical history questions, jabs me, hands me a leaflet.

- I sit in recovery area for 5 minutes and then walk out.

It was a great relief to have such a simple process, very different to being in Highland.

I think the 'non GP'  locations do seem to have a path with repetitive requests for details which seems a bit pointless (not including the final step which dies need confirmation of identity).

I've been vaccinating for combined group of five GP practices. I think it's pretty efficient. Patients are guided through the car park to the clinic. Once into the building a clark checks their details and writes their DOB and NHS number on the top of advice leaflet about the particular vaccine they will be getting. Then it's a brief wait in the corridor before going in to see the vaccinator. Our vaccinators consent and do the jab. Consenting can only done by a registered health professional. I reckon I take four and a half minutes to consent and vaccinate each person. Yesterday I did the 45,000 jab given at Holme Valley Memorial Hospital. 

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/unwanted_amazon_parcel-741445?
 

yeah, right….

I’ve definitely hit a nerve here, but like it or not the NHS isn’t fit for purpose anymore.

This is 2021, not 1950.

People no longer visit their GP once a year then die at 70. Instead they get seen every month to manage 3-7 co-morbidities over 25 years and are offered a whole host of treatment on top of this.

Management, staffing and funding - it all needs to change if we’re going to have a modern health service in 20 years time. 

I don't know about those who have volunteered to assist with the vaccinationa, but if I volunteer and can see that the role that I am filling serves little purpose I get mightily p'ed off.

Not so much hit a nerve, as demonstrated you have no idea what you are talking about. 
 

The NHS’s management structure gets a complete reboot on a regular basis. We are midstream in the latest iteration of this. Staffing changes continuously. Funding increases, but over the last decade has not kept pace with increased demand.

But the point was your suggestion that Amazon are the paradigm the NHS should aspire to. A tax avoiding multinational infamous for low wages and degrading working conditions. I think we’ll pass. 

May I politely suggest you’re blind to the obvious truth.

Funding had increased in real terms every single year. That’s not sustainable regardless of demand.

It’s time to move away from a general taxation model and go to a German or French model.

Better funding, better outcomes and less waste.

Keep voting Tory and I'm sure things will improve.

Despite being an overweight lard arse, ex smoker, over-drinker, vice ridden example of how not to treat the human body, I'm actually generally healthy and am lucky enough to not really need the NHS a hell of a lot, so my experiences with them are actually few and far between (ok, maybe I'm storing stuff up for later years) but the few times I have used them I've experienced a seamless  and professional service.  

My recent experience with my mam and the cancer diagnosis did nothing to diminish this opinion either.  from the initial shock diagnosis to treatment took about ten days to organise, and every element seems to have been handled with professionalism and care (and I do mean care.  Everyone involved that we have spoken to is human, compassionate and has put her first).  

I know this is just anecdotal experience and not at all reflective of the whole NHS as a service.  I have no experience of working in the frontline, or in the support of it (and my brain is a bit too slow to see the wider political forces at play or to understand the staggering complexities of such a massive organisation).

You're probably correct when you say the NHS needs an overhaul to make it more relevant to the 21st century to keep it as effective as possible.  I don't think anyone has a problem with that.  But I still think the initial point of the post (a disorganised rollout of the booster and a lot of duplication and bureaucracy) is a small price to pay for it all.  

I think your definition of ‘polite’ differs from most peoples.

And, replying in kind, might I impolitely suggest you are delusional if you think that the French and German models have less waste. 

Health and social care funding is a hard problem. Growth in need as societies age is outstripping growth in GDP all across the developed world. Healthcare consumes a progressively larger chunk of GDP as time passes. 
 

There are different models for healthcare provision, each with their own strengths and limitations, and each has evolved over generations in the societal context specific to that location. The only one which is egregiously bad is the US model.

The NHS is weak on quality in certain key areas, eg cancer survival; but very strong in others eg accessibility, and being able to make a coordinated response across the system. It is no coincidence that the U.K.s vaccine rollout has been the fastest of any nation except Israel, and that the U.K. has led the world in identifying effective COVID therapies. 
 

It is also the most efficient system (or, at any rate the least inefficient system) of any major economy. There are no perverse incentives to over refer, or overinvestigate; and instead strong cost containment measures. There are numerous international comparisons which demonstrate that the U.K. gets more ‘healthcare’ per unit investment than nearly anywhere, but that we spend less as a proportion of GDP than most comparable countries. As a result we have a lean service, but one that struggles to keep up with the best performing comparators on important outcomes; and mental health inpatient care is a particular low point. 
 

The NHS is not perfect, but the grass is not always greener. Continental mixed insurance models get better outcomes, but cost considerably more and have less even access. Let’s try spending as much as the French and Germans do before deciding that the NHS, properly resourced, can’t do what they do.

What's your background VS? 

Might help some of us to see where you're coming from.

Had my booster last Monday. After booking via the NHS app. 

Text today reminds me of my booster jab next Monday. Look at previous NHS text and it too says Mon 27th. But I didn't go by that but by the time I booked in for via the app. Maybe that explains why they didn't recognise my booking reference number last Monday?

Anyway can I cancel the appointment? No. Tried clicking the link to the NHS site, hopeless.

Even logged in to the app, also hopeless, plenty help for booking a jab, none for cancelling the appointment.

Oh well I won't be there. 

I wonder who developed the app? Could it have been ... a private sector company? Like the ones that tried to develop test and trace ... and failed ... at our expense?

'It’s time to move away from a general taxation model and go to a German or French model.'

Rather than just assert, could you show your working?

Go to manage booking on the website, you have to go through to view alternative dates, but there is then the option to cancel existing bookings. Not very instinctive but is doable.

I think progress would be just an ability for a cross party committee to discuss what the uk wants and needs the nhs to look like in the next 25-50years. In field professionals giving advice on likely population size, costs, new treatments, funding options etc..

Instead it's a case of no one can say a word unless it's praising the national treasure, it's not helping anyone in the long run.

Our Lass just got pinged this morning for a close encounter from .......................... 14th Dec. So I suppose she's done her 10 days isolation now!

Quite - we’re surrounded by neighbours who have better health outcomes than we do and we keep bleating on about how good the NHS is.

Why not open to discussion about funding models ect?

My gripe with the current model is that it just takes money from other services - I’d far rather the money was spent on giving the young a leg up rather than prolonging the lives of crumblies.

A point to note, measured against Europe the uk is towards the bottom funding wise per capita, but it's outcomes are more towards the middle, it's actually incredibly efficient with what it has, as much because of the staff: such as the truly ridiculous hours young doctors work etc... but compared to European countries which have better funding, the uk has poor outcomes. The nhs can improve, it just needs money!

Point noted.

The thing I object to is the funding model. The size of the general taxation pot is inherently political - we all don’t like paying tax in the UK. If we spend more money on healthcare we spend less on something else. 

The pandemic exposed how unrealistic our expectations are - we had BBC news articles lamenting the deaths of care home residents from Covid (yet the video footage showed that a strong gust of wind would have put them 6 feet under). It’s just madness. We expect American outcomes on a Botswana budget.

Many folk may have lived with manageable conditions for decade or more, before covid wiped them out. Many weren't typical care home age either. Not all home residents are on deaths door.

I think you're wrong on just about every level ... except that the NHS could be 'more efficient'. No sh*t Sherlock. But don't look to the US - or France - or ??? for more efficiency. 

The funding model of the NHS is one of the great glories of post-War Britain, even if the government control leaves a lot to be desired. The principle is dead simple - we all need healthcare - but none of us can know how much. So we ALL need insurance; so why not let the government arrange it, and avoid insurance companies creaming off 15%+ (as per the US) before a single sticking plaster has been applied. And there's more - the way healthcare is administered outside the UK distorts the provision of healthcare, because it all has to be itemised and charged; even the systems they have to use (to record symptoms, diagnosis, prognosis, treatments and outcomes) are designed to facilitate charging models rather than healthcare.

FWIW I am not convinced that decent healthcare is not affordable. Nor do I think funding of social care is unaffordable; speaking as a crumbly, as you so charmingly put it, if I have to sell my house to pay for it, so be it. (Sorry kids, I'm sure there'll be some left over to have a drink on me.) I don't think health systems should be administered day to day by government - the issues are complex , nuanced, long term - not exactly government strengths. And organisations need leadership, by people the rank and file respect. Javid may be doing his best, but I wouldn't want to quiz him on, say, evaluating the efficacy of a screening programme, or defending the closure of a local cottage hospital vs providing an air ambulance service. And as for Hunt, or Handcock... What would be great would be  governments fighting elections on the basis of rolling five year budgets and handing that money over, free of political interference, to a board of governors, representing all stakeholders, 

Tried again. There's no option, can't rearrange. Won't let me do anything as it thinks I'm trying to book when I'm already booked. Odd as you would think that you could rearrange. 

It's pretty clear that the direction of travel in the future is more automation and that we already have a situation where wages are being held down by competition from lower income countries and automated alternatives but that property rent income and investment income is being actively supported by government policies and growing far faster than wages.

The consequence is that expensive essential services are not going to be fundable for many people by from post tax income or by government from income tax because people aren't earning enough.  If you want to future proof health then it needs to be funded by government and government will need to change the mix of taxes to capture more investment and property related income and rely less on taxes on wages.

The Tories obviously want to swap the taxation model for an insurance model because that's going to create a 100 billion a year opportunity for financial services companies to sell insurance.  That size of business opportunity means donations to the Tories and 'advisory' sinecures for Tory MPs who help make it happen.   It won't stop at 100 billion though because insurance copmpanies don't care about keeping healthcare costs down.  They are taking a percentage off the top,  if healthcare costs doubled to 200 billion a year then their cut would also go up.  There will also be massive growth of opportunities for malpractice lawyers and insurance against malpractice claims.

The end game is something like the US where the rich get excellent healthcare, the middle class need to spend a ridiculous percentage of their income on healthcare and the poor don't get proper treatment.

You realise US outcomes are worse on many measures and they spend twice or more what we do?

Have you recently used the NHS in scotland ? it's an absolute shambles.  Especially primary care, it has basically ceased to function. I don't know how it is in England but probably not much better.
 

GPs practices are running as usual in Holmfirth. Face to face and telephone consultations available every day.

I have. Seemed fine.

Just for my Covid jags - they did a stellar job.

Other family members have used them and its definitely harder to get appointments with specialists than before Covid - but that's not 'shambles' you can't expect healthcare to function normally in a pandemic.

My mother was seriously ill in the QE Hospital in Glasgow for several months a few years ago and I was completely impressed by the new hospital.  I'd seen the hospitals it replaced when my father was ill, completely night and day in comparison to the old Southern General and Victoria Infirmary.

Not sure what's gone wrong then.

I turned up a day early to my booster appointment (entirely my fault), they nonetheless jabbed me as a walk-in. In and out in less than 10 minutes. I then went home and cancelled my appointment for the next day on the website, which as Jenny C mentioned wasn't entirely obvious but worked for me.

IT solutions purchased by the public sector are invariablly poor regardless of the company that provides them. Maybe the inadequacies lie with the civil servants that are in charge of the procurement process.

Having spent most of my working life as a farmer wrestling with DEFRA procured systems, test and trace and the NHS app are refreshingly efficient in the way that they actually function.

I'm b*ggered if I know why one the largest IT users in the World can't develop and maintain an in-house development facility.

Actually I do know; lack of vision, lack of leadership.

Isn't that part of what NHS Digital does?

Didn't they develop the NHS App?

Well you are lucky.
 

My GP practice in Edinburgh is basically shut down to appointments both f2f and on the phone - unless the GP himself requests it. They also stopped answering the phones in the afternoons, and if you call them in the morning the line is always busy.

Even if you managed to get to the reception they just ask you to fill in an online « e-consult » form. 

I recently injured my foot. Took one week before a GP answered my « econsult », which was basically a kafkaesque and inefficient exchange of emails. Then took two weeks to get an x ray appointment, and another three weeks for a GP to just have a look at the results. Turns out I have a fracture (no shit Sherlock !). I still can’t drive or walk for more than 20 min, and still waiting for treatment…

Unfortunately it’s not just me.
One of my friend recently moved to a new area and had to wait a year and a half just to get a GP.

In the big cities at least the system is completely broken as far as I can tell. I also suspect the pandemic has been an excuse to do everything to avoid patients going into treatment, but they are just causing more work for themselves as people end up coming in later with complications.

Absolutely not, to both your questions.

Anecdata is not data but... I mentioned a symptom in passing to a nurse who was giving me a jab 6 weeks ago; within 2 weeks I had a call with my GP and have an appt with a hospital consultant early Jan.

A close relative with a long term condition leads a complicated life; she's moved from Wales (separate health service) to England, but currently works on a temporary contract in France. Oh yes, she's also had covid. In the week before Christmas she managed to return to the UK, get her bloods done, and have telephone appts with her GP and a new consultant.

And all for free, in the middle of a pandemic. Effing awesome.

What treatment are you waiting for? Bones won't heal quicker becase you waste a doctors time with a f2f appointment.  Sounds like the system is working, and not wating time on irrelavencies to me

How kind of you. This is exactly what I mean when I say people have blind faith in the NHS.

Clearly the NHS failed in this situation (broken bones not being treated). Instead of acknowledging this, people look for excuses to defend the NHS. Just shocking.

I was asking what you expected. Minor bones don't need treatment. You sound like a moany timewaster. If you want a tea and sympathy service, go private.

I also don't believe you.

It wasn’t my broken bone??? Take it easy on the sauce today.

Do we really not treat broken foot bones? 

The wiki page makes it sound like the answer is yes to both those questions but I’ve no knowledge other than that! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_app
 

Broken toes, no.  Doc might tape it to the next toe if it makes you happy.

Pretty sure if I had problems like they describe I’d have gone to A&E at a quiet time with a good book and a thermos flask.  Although oddly enough going of the experience of others I know, GP access isn’t that difficult for them…

Observation: We have a new poster meandering towards the subject of private healthcare, saying they’re in Scotland and using guillemets instead of inverted commas.  All has a certain « je ne sais qois » to it, no?

It's not happened by chance. We have two GPs practices who are very insistent about maintaining their services in as much possible to normal. It's cost them a substantial hit financially but there you go. Some people step up others don't.......

Depends which one and how it’s broken I guess. I wonder what is the point of sending people for X-Ray if it is going to take 5 weeks, which is basically how long it should take to heal.

Regardless, it’s bad enough that some GPs practice seem to have pretty much given up on doing basic thing such as answering the phone.

I won’t make the mistake of trying to not clog up the NHS again though. Next time I’ll do the irresponsible thing and check myself in A&E instead.

Seems to me that not being able to walk is a legitimate reason to want to see a GP.

My GP practice has something like a 2.5 star rating on Google review. So I think they were already crap but the pandemic took it to a whole new level.

Unfortunately I keep hearing anecdotes like that so it’s not just me.

Many minor bones do just need supporting (bandage, split, strap etc  not tea & biscuits) whilst they heal, HOWEVER it is important to ascertain they are correctly aligned and don't impinge on any blood vessels or nerves before being left to heal. 

I was thinking along the same lines, probably pop to minor injuries had a quick look and it is covered under it (in Wales)

https://111.wales.nhs.uk/localservices/minorinjuryunit/

 

Seems to me that not being able to walk is a legitimate reason to want to see a doctor, not specifically a GP, not much a GP will do other than send you to hospital

If only the NHS provided walk-in facilities with titles like « Accident and Emergency » and  « Minor Injuries Unit », typically at locations with immediate access to radiology faculties like X-rays, as well as a centrally run phone number that could assist you in choosing an appropriate venue and perhaps even booking an appointment. 

Oh wait, they do.
 

TBH just going by your description you'd have been totally justified turning up to a Minor Injuries Unit in the first place and wouldn't have been clogging it up at all.

Ha snap....

Maybe, TBH I don’t know how it works, I simply did what I was told after calling 111, which was to take ibuprofen and go to a GP if it did not improve.

Regardless, my ailments are not the point here, my point is that the primary care system seem to be in dire shape at the moment, at least for me and the people I talk to in my area.

LettingTory cronies' companies loose on the NHS will see Botswanan outcomes for US levels of spending.

Maybe that is the case but that’s not the only model. Most European countries have very good healthcare systems with a mixed public/private model.
This idea that we have only a choice between the NHS and US style privatisation is nonsense.

If you can formulate a single reason why that is the case, rather than asserting it, please do so.

The biggest single issue at the moment with the NHS is that it currently acts as a perfect vehicle for funneling public funds to private shareholders, many (most?) offshore; with little oversight, accountability or risk. It's cr*p, and we must stop it.

It is simply a fact that there aren’t only two models in the world for delivering healthcare.
Plenty of countries have outstanding healthcare systems with mixed private/public funding: Italy, Germany, France, Spain etc etc…

I am not surprised. Having a fully taxpayer funded system isn’t even a guarantee against exploitation greed and corruption.

Can you imagine getting it so wrong that you confuse Facebook with Amazon ?

In any IT solution you have time, cost, quality.   Pick two.  Procurement usually goes for cheap and quick.  Quality doesn’t get a look in.  Then it doesn’t come in on time as the quality is so poor.  Then it doesn’t come in on cost as more has to be spent to fix it.  IT Procurement is often a race to the bottom with the lowest bidder winning.

Most if not all in house IT expertise was decimated in the late 90s early 2000s and all the built up knowledge left with those made redundant and never recovered.

Whilst I mixed up the remedy (possibly since AWS was closed mouthed on the fix), AWS got taken out by autoscale recently for one of their regions.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/12/13/aws_postmortem/

Personally the one I most liked though was a while back and cant remember which of the faangs it was but stuck the secure key for resetting a network inside a locked safe with the combination held in an online secure storage. Problem was the storage was in the failed part of the network. Now that case did need them to get a locksmith out

They are also equally struggling with the aging population and the fact medicine is getting increasing good at keeping people alive but at an ever increasing cost.

Also at the risk of pointing out the obvious. The part of the NHS you are complaining about will almost certainly be the private part of a mixed model. Remember GPs are due to kludges when it was first set up private independant contractors.

So given they tend to cost more what is the justification for switching? How will they give better outcomes for the same price?

Given how our economic model is closer to the US than much of Europe which way do you really see it going? How long do you think the German system of extremely heavily regulated private companies would work before the loons shout about redtape and get it wiped out?