/ US betrayal

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baron 07 Oct 2019

Having been happy to support the Kurds while they removed ISIS from northern Iraq, the US has begun but withdraw its troops from the area to allow the Turks to wage war on the Kurds.

The Turks aim is to establish a safe zone in their area.

Coming up your TV screen soon - pictures of collateral damage and fleeing refugees.

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henwardian 07 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

This is like calling out a skunk for its smell.

This is standard operating procedure for USA foreign policy and has been for many years:

1) Find someone who is your enemies enemy.

2) Support them till you feel you have accomplished your goal.

3) Ditch the support.

The only difference more recently is the idea of giving a slightly longer period of grace between 2 and 3.

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baron 07 Oct 2019
In reply to henwardian:

Got any examples where the US has withdrawn from an area knowing what is going to happen to its allies?

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Offwidth 07 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

"Got any examples where the US has withdrawn from an area knowing what is going to happen to its allies?"

Vietnam was the most (in)famous. More recently parts of Afghanistan and Iraq. In terms of interventions without official 'troops on the ground' (aside from special forces) other parts of Syria and Libya.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States

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Martin Hore 07 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

I've also just heard this and don't like it at all. Seems to me the Kurds have been doing much of the most difficult and costly fighting on "our" side for many years now, not just against ISIS. But even if they hadn't, they still in my view deserve the right to self-determination. As far as I know, they constitute the large majority of the population in the area they inhabit, which includes parts of Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria, and they should be entitled to establish a Kurdish state in these areas. But, of course, this would involve abandoning the sanctity of existing international borders which has been deemed essential for maintaining peace ever since the 2nd World War. Not only would the four countries above all object to ceding "their" territory, but so would other countries with minority enclaves whose people might demand the same - notably Spain of course. Britain is fairly exceptional in this regard in being prepared to grant Scottish independence should the Scots vote for it.

Martin

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cb294 07 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

All the hill tribes in Vietnam and Laos that were recruited fighting the VietCong and then abandoned. Civilians working for the Americans in Afghanistan and other countries that were first promised and then denied US visa when things turned to shit. The Kurds in northern Iraq and the Marsh Arabs in the Euphrates delta: First goaded into rebelling agains Saddam Hussein back in the 1990s, then betrayed and abandoned.

As henwardian said, long standing standard US operating procedure, really...

CB

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baron 07 Oct 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Not sure that Vietnam is a good comparison.

Abandoning the Kurds is a political  choice not forced on it by an advancing enemy.

Post edited at 14:17
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baron 07 Oct 2019
In reply to cb294:

All acts not to be proud of but not quite the same as deliberately withdrawing your ground troops tfor no other reason than to allow a third party to slaughter your previous allies.

And not much of a fuss raised on the international scene.

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cb294 07 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

This is precisely hat happened in Vietnam.

CB

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baron 07 Oct 2019
In reply to cb294:

Vietnam was a deeply unpopular war propping up a highly corrupt government.

US casualties and a well organised peace movement combined with a well motivated and efficient enemy meant that the US could never win.

They withdrew allowing the Vietnamese to sort their country out themselves.

Comparisons with what’s about to happen in northern Syria/Iraq are minimal at best.

Post edited at 14:28
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Eric9Points 07 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

Utterly disgraceful, it suggests some kind of stitch up between Erdogan, Trump and Putin to me.

The Turks of course, don't want any sort of Kurdish state on their border which would encourage Turkish Kurds to join with their neighbours, the Russians will take the side of the Syrians who don't want to lose a bit of Syria and the Kurds are a bit commie so the US won't be entirely supportive but no doubt Trump will have secured a favour or two for his acquiescence.

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thomasadixon 07 Oct 2019
In reply to Eric9Points:

You think the Syrians want a chunk of their country being taken over by the Turks?  The Syrians have been working with the Kurds, the Turkish backed rebel groups are a major problem for them.

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MonkeyPuzzle 07 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

Good thing there aren't two Trump Towers in Turkey that would raise any questions about conflict of interest.

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FactorXXX 07 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

Don't worry, Trump has Tweeted to say that everything will be alright:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1181232249821388801

As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...

Not sure what you can say about that really!

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baron 07 Oct 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Good thing there aren't two Trump Towers in Turkey that would raise any questions about conflict of interest.

Conflict of interest, Trump? Surely not!?

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baron 07 Oct 2019
In reply to FactorXXX:

> Don't worry, Trump has Tweeted to say that everything will be alright:

> As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...

> Not sure what you can say about that really!

Oh, that’s alright then.

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wbo2 07 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:  I'd have said the rebellion in Iraq post second gulf war is the best example.  Encouraged them to rebel, then abandoned them to genocide.

Haven't they stitched up the Kurds before?

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baron 07 Oct 2019
In reply to wbo2:

Inciting the Kurds to rebel was a despicable act which led to the establishment of no fly zones in an attempt to prevent the Iraqi government from slaughtering the Kurds.

This time the Turkish government has already announced its plans for the Kurds and the US is still withdrawing its troops.

Even some of Trumps supporters in Washington can’t believe what’s happening.

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Wanderer100 07 Oct 2019
In reply to FactorXXX:

He's officially gone cuckoo. The bloke will start slathering next and I fully expect to see him in a strait jacket before long.

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Andy Johnson 07 Oct 2019

4. Your enemies enemy becomes your enemy.

5. Repeat from 1.

In reply to henwardian:

> This is like calling out a skunk for its smell.

> This is standard operating procedure for USA foreign policy and has been for many years:

> 1) Find someone who is your enemies enemy.

> 2) Support them till you feel you have accomplished your goal.

> 3) Ditch the support.

> The only difference more recently is the idea of giving a slightly longer period of grace between 2 and 3.

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Tyler 07 Oct 2019
In reply to henwardian:

> This is like calling out a skunk for its smell.

> This is standard operating procedure for USA foreign policy and has been for many years:

This does not seem to be a US policy this time but something Trump has done unilaterally. Hopefully he can be reeled back in like the time, recently, when he said he'd withdraw from Afghanistan, I don't think there's anyone outside the white House who would support this policy. If it goes head then things are very bleak for the Kurds

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FactorXXX 07 Oct 2019
In reply to Wanderer100:

> He's officially gone cuckoo. 

He appears to.
Anyone who states: "in my great and unmatched wisdom" has to be at least 10 o'clock on the cuckoo scale of madness and that's a hell of a lot of cuckoos!

> The bloke will start slathering next and I fully expect to see him in a strait jacket before long.

He's obviously deranged, but I'm not quite sure of the relevance of his buttering preferences and his decision to wear nautical themed clothing...

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thomasadixon 07 Oct 2019
In reply to Tyler:

I think they are whatever happens sadly.  The US can’t do much really except try (and fail) to control Erdogan.  The Kurds are either in Syria, and so Assad (who’s solidly in place as ever), or Turkey in the long run.  Assad might seem the lesser evil.

FactorXXX - I had to double check that, even for Trump...

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Gordon Stainforth 07 Oct 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Good thing there aren't two Trump Towers in Turkey that would raise any questions about conflict of interest.

The thing is that there are two Trump Towers in Istanbul ... but you probably knew that? In which case you're doing that thing that always bothers me: being ironic on the internet. It hardly ever works; is more often than not taken literally and so completely misconstrued.

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Blue Straggler 08 Oct 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I think that was sarcasm rather than irony, and it worked well for me insofar as I didn’t previously know there were two Trump Towers in Turkey but Monkeypuzzle’s Post was easy to understand 

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Gordon Stainforth 08 Oct 2019
In reply to Blue Straggler:

You're not being very clear here, because his post did not tell you that there are actually two Trump Towers there. And you said you did not previously know that.

Post edited at 00:43
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cb294 08 Oct 2019
In reply to FactorXXX:

One thing only: The guy is clinically insane, to an extent that becomes diagnosable via the internet.

CB

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hang_about 08 Oct 2019
In reply to cb294:

His wisdom is unmatched - but not in a good way....

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MonkeyPuzzle 08 Oct 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> The thing is that there are two Trump Towers in Istanbul ... but you probably knew that? In which case you're doing that thing that always bothers me: being ironic on the internet. It hardly ever works; is more often than not taken literally and so completely misconstrued.

Well, as long as you don't like irony on the internet I'll definitely stop doing it.

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pavelk 08 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

If you help someone once, are you obliged to help him forever?

I have been in Erbil and Alqush in Iraqi Kurdistan recently and I got an impression there that Kurds would trigger an armed uprising in Turkey as soon as they feel strong enough to do it (people there seem they except it to happen). I have some understanding that the Americans do not want to assist it.

If Turkish invasion occurs (and it would not be for the first time) the European countries will have the biggest problem probably. Why don´t they care? Or the EU?

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Timmd 08 Oct 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> You're not being very clear here, because his post did not tell you that there are actually two Trump Towers there. And you said you did not previously know that.

I didn't know there were 2 Trump towers, and inferred that there presumably are, but I'm used to people being fairly sarcastic and cynical on here which possibly helped. Hopefully Trump won't last for much longer if grounds for his impeachment are as solid as they seem.

Post edited at 23:00
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Xharlie 09 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

Raymond E. Feist, in one of his books, tells a parable about a frog and a scorpion.

The scorpion asks the frog to help it cross a wide river but the frog is unwilling, saying that the scorpion will sting it and kill it. The scorpion says that it would not because, if it did sting the frog, it would drown and die. On this logic, the frog agrees to carry the scorpion across the river on its back.

In the middle of the river, the scorpion stings the frog and both the frog and the scorpion perish.

Why did the scorpion sting the frog?

The answer is simple: it's a scorpion -- it's in its nature.

(The above is from memory, not a quote.)

Sadly, there are many frogs in the world, today, and they appear to have short memories and no ability to learn from each other's experiences.

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Wanderer100 09 Oct 2019
In reply to pavelk:

> If Turkish invasion occurs (and it would not be for the first time) the European countries will have the biggest problem probably. Why don´t they care? Or the EU?

Well now it's happened. It will be a(nother)bloodbath. There will be no winners in this war.

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DerwentDiluted 09 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

Apparently Trump just said the Kurds didn't help us in WW2 so deserve it.  They must have had bone spurs.

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fred99 09 Oct 2019
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Considering which side his paternal relations were on in both wars ...

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jethro kiernan 10 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

Fresh in from Trumpland

The Kurds didn’t help the US in the battle of Normandy

thats explains it all 😕

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/09/trump-syria-kurds-normandy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Post edited at 07:51
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Roadrunner6 10 Oct 2019
In reply to baron:

I think this is worse than previous examples.

the US asked them to withdraw from that area to appease the Turks, they did, then the Turks have gone in. After all the Kurds did as well.

its a very odd mood and has cost Trump support. But again he rolls to dictators.

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