/ ULEZ

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Max factor - on 09 Apr 2019

Surprised there is no thread on this. I'm looking forward to seeing how much difference this makes, and personally can't wait for its extension in October 2021 (though am prepared for this to be shouted down when people final wake up to it). 

At the moment few residents have to drive into the C-charge zone during hours of operation, so it's pretty much carry on as your were. However, this could be a real game changer for the city in terms of accelerating the switch to greener and cleaner cars and public transport, as well as making it a much nicer place to live. 

From TFL: 

i.e. "From 25 October 2021, residents must pay the full daily ULEZ charge to drive a vehicle in the zone if it does not meet the ULEZ standards". 

and

The new ULEZ will cover an area 18 times larger than the Central London Ultra Low Emission Zone and will affect large numbers of polluting vehicles that don’t comply with strict emission standards. It is estimated that 100,000 cars, 35,000 vans and 3,000 lorries might be affected by the expanded zone and tighter standards every day.

Cheap 2nd hand diesel anyone?

4
RX-78 on 09 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

Well we will be oin the zone when it expands, but our 10 year old petrol car will be fine, so no change here. My children have grown up in London so too late for them now, pity.

WaterMonkey - on 09 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

The Reach climbing wall in Woolwich will be in the ULEZ zone from 2021. That'll scupper me visiting there

Max factor - on 09 Apr 2019
In reply to WaterMonkey:

I guess this is an example of why it will really change behaviours, if the Mayor and the government stick to their guns. It probably will have a detrimental effect on London's economy; at least until other cities have the same. 

What are the chances that it's significantly watered down by a populist government facing a faltering post-Brexit economy?

1
Max factor - on 09 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

(see what I did there? - sorry)

Ramblin dave - on 09 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

*standard muttering about how black cabs are exempt as usual because presumably their exhaust is magically non-polluting or something*

Max factor - on 09 Apr 2019
In reply to Ramblin dave:

I know! Though black cabs are relatively scarce these days compared to the Uber fleet of Priuses. Rarely see many outside of central London.  

galpinos on 09 Apr 2019
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Hopefully to be replaced by the electric black cab:

https://www.levc.com/tx-electric-taxi/

350 on the road so far......

fred99 - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> *standard muttering about how black cabs are exempt as usual because presumably their exhaust is magically non-polluting or something*


And buses ...

IainL on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

How are buses and taxis going to pass. They are the biggest polluters in cities. One bus has been shown to be as bad as 60 cars.

1
Mr Lopez - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

> as well as making it a much nicer place to live. 

... if you are well off financially.

 For people that can afford buying compliant cars it'll be sweet, quieter roads, nice. For those that don't mind paying the charge? Well by all means Sir, go ahead and pollute to your hearts content in your V8 Range Rover, so far as you give me some of that money. People's health has a price after all.

 For those like me caught just inside the expanded area and who just about scraped enough money together to get a car to be able to get out of London climbing on weekends and do the rare errands, and can't afford a £10000 car? Well tough luck you plebs. Get on the buses where you belong and leave the roads to your betters.

 For the people breathing the air, largely irrelevant, when the major polluters will continue polluting. Buses and taxis carry on as usual, and lorries will just stick the charge onto the customers, as will tradesmen, etc. There will be a reduction of cars on the road from the people who have just been priced from driving , but the impact will be minimal. Unlike the impact on low wage people who need a car that is.

 Go tell that pensioner on £150/week who have owned her car for 15 years how much nicer will be living in London when she can't go do the weekly shopping any more or go visit the grandchildren or the mates at the bingo.

 Tell the nurse working nights how much nicer will be living in London when he's forced to quit his job because there's no way he can make it to hospital without it turning into an epic 2 hour journey each way hopping between night buses.

 I'm sure the hundreds of thousands of people who will be priced off the road will be all awed into how much nicer will be living in London once they have their mobility taken away from them.

 Don't get me wrong, it's good they are trying to do something about pollution, but the way it's been pushed through being all about money stinks, and it has been so from the word go.

 Funny thing, TFL ran the consultation and reported the general support for the implementation in its current form, and who is running the scheme? TFL. Who is keeping the money? TFL, looking at pocketing hundreds of millions a year. Does it sound a bit dodgy? Nah, not at all...

 I'd have respected a scheme that finds a way of reducing pollution/traffic across class/financial divides, but a system based solely on making owning a car unaffordable for a large proportion of the population is not something i can get behind. In fact, i'm f*cking fuming. Grrrr...

Post edited at 15:01
6
Max factor - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Mr Lopez:

There are more choices at play than just whether you switch to a compliant car (if you can afford it). Using your car less and using public transport more being the two obvious ones.

Yes, many will be  inconvenienced, but living it a big city with all its transport infrastructure and amenities the alternatives are there.  The effects of air pollution are no joke, and it's this, not the money, that the ULEZ is being brought in for.

4
elsewhere on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Mr Lopez:

>  I'd have respected a scheme that finds a way of reducing pollution/traffic across class/financial divides, but a system based solely on making owning a car unaffordable for a large proportion of the population is not something i can get behind. In fact, i'm f*cking fuming. Grrrr...

Possibly no need to fume as cars built since 2006 (& mine from 2005) already meet the ULEZ standard.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle-35896 

It's not 100% certain from TFL website but I think for cars it's adoption of current ULEZ standard across a wider area rather than a tighter standard.

For vans, buses & lorries I think it is a tighter standard over a wider area. 

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/changes-to-the-lez

Post edited at 15:35
Mr Lopez - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

> There are more choices at play than just whether you switch to a compliant car (if you can afford it). Using your car less and using public transport more being the two obvious ones.

I use my car at most 3 times a week. Once to get out of London, once to come back to London, and once for weekly errands which are just not feasible without the car. All in i drive at most 3, maybe 4 miles within the extended ULEZ a week. Those 3/4 miles a week would cost £1950/year come 2021. Lets call it £1500 as i don't go out every weekend. I can't afford that, so i don't seem to have much of a choice.

> living it a big city with all its transport infrastructure and amenities the alternatives are there. 

... if you are well off financially. (Again).

 Transport infrastructure and amenities are the biggest factors in housing prices in London. The better served areas by public transport and those 'close to amenities' are the most expensive to live in, and conversely, those areas with shit transport links or where there's a lack of ammenities are the cheaper ones, which for a lot of people means they are the only affordable ones.

 That's where the whole ULEZ becomes Machiavellian, in particular in its extension to the N and S circular.

  The people who live in areas with very poor transport links are also the same people who likely can't afford a compliant car or forking out £12.5 for doing a short journey, whereas those living within walking distance of a station served by a couple of tube lines and a range of shops/facilities are not only unlikely not to be able to afford getting a new car or paying the charge, but to even need a car for basic stuff in the first place.

1
Ken.Garner - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Mr Lopez:

"lorries will just stick the charge onto the customers"

Haulage companies are struggling to pass on any increased costs to customers at the moment, when the ULEZ is expanded it will be uneconomic to drive a Euro 5 truck (over 3.5t) within the M25. Which is fine if you have a brand new fleet but not so fine if you have a mixed fleet and have a depot within the zone. Customers aren't going to accept a charge being passed on because the wrong truck is in the right place at the right time. 

Businesses who do not have the capital resources to invest in new assets will cease trading or have to reduce the size of their fleet.

Taxing commercial vehicles is not the answer to tackling air pollution, the incentive is already there for them to invest in new more efficient technology, the tax will just hinder that process and delay investment.

Neil Williams - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to galpinos:

> Hopefully to be replaced by the electric black cab:

> 350 on the road so far......


Still polluting, just not at the point of use.  The paradox of taxi operation is that much smaller vehicles (the likes o Chevrolet Matiz, which are used as taxis in some countries) are suitable for the single passenger that uses most of them, yet wheelchair access requires massive vehicles.

Neil Williams - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Mr Lopez:

>  I'd have respected a scheme that finds a way of reducing pollution/traffic across class/financial divides, but a system based solely on making owning a car unaffordable for a large proportion of the population is not something i can get behind. In fact, i'm f*cking fuming. Grrrr...

Why?  It is unnecessary to own a car in most of London.  The public transport is superb (even the buses, for those off the Tube/train lines, are markedly superior to anywhere else in the UK), and taxis and Ubers abound.  Use a car club or short term hire if you need one.

Post edited at 16:35
3
galpinos on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Still polluting, just not at the point of use. 

Isn't that the point?

Max factor - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to elsewhere:

> Possibly no need to fume as cars built since 2006 (& mine from 2005) already meet the ULEZ standard.

'Fraid not; many diesel cars that are not Euro6 compliant (i.e. lots built prior to Sep 2015) will be eligible for the charge. That is swathes of relatively new cars, which is why there will be a s**tstorm when people fully wake up to the fact.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/90816/euro-6-emissions-standards-what-do-they-mean-for-you

Ken.Garner - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor

> 'Fraid not; many diesel cars that are not Euro6 compliant (i.e. lots built prior to Sep 2015) will be eligible for the charge. That is swathes of relatively new cars, which is why there will be a s**tstorm when people fully wake up to the fact.

Just to add that TFL refuse to confirm that Euro6 will remain a benchmark in the future, so there is no clarity over what the introduction of Euro7 will mean

Max factor - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Mr Lopez:

I don't think Machiavellian is the right term. There is no rich vs poor agenda, though you are absolutely right it would be harder to adapt the closer you are to the breadline. It's a blunt instrument to fix a very serious health problem.

The current proposal is very clearly use dependent, which is something going for it - the more you choose to drive a polluting car the more you pay. That at least doesn't preclude owning a car and paying for its use when it's absolutely necessary. 

The alternative you seem to be proposing is means testing to whether or not you can afford to be green, and if you can't, it's ok to keep on polluting. That's got be wrong and will only perpetuate the problem as people try to keep their old and charge free cars on the road.

I also fervently hope that those who choose to keep driving their 4x4s and can pay regardless are seen as pariahs. But, y'know, folk seem to like their range rovers. 

Neil Williams - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to galpinos:

> Isn't that the point?

It's the initial point, but at some point the electric car myth needs smashing.

nufkin - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

Rode through town this morning. Can't say I noticed a difference to overall traffic, but maybe the makeup was different.

I'd quite like a 'size' tax as well as an emissions tax. That might discourage the abundance of single-occupancy Range Rovers

1
nufkin - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to IainL:

>  One bus has been shown to be as bad as 60 cars.

But one bus also carries considerably more than 60 people, on a footprint that's not much different to four or five cars

bigbobbyking - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It's the initial point, but at some point the electric car myth needs smashing.

What's the myth? They are less polluting that combustion engined cars, both in terms of tail pipe emissions (which is what the ULEZ is about) and in terms of CO2. 

1
Neil Williams - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to bigbobbyking:

> What's the myth? They are less polluting that combustion engined cars, both in terms of tail pipe emissions (which is what the ULEZ is about) and in terms of CO2. 

They are not a panacea like people think they are.  They do not reduce congestion at all, and they still pollute because in the end you are using the energy to move a big heavy metal box around with one person in it.

Therefore, there should be no change to policies that driving a car on your own is to be discouraged, particularly into and within large cities well served by public transport (and so far as the UK goes, that doesn't get better than London).

(A full family car compares reasonably to other modes of transport and so isn't really much of an issue, though).

Post edited at 18:29
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wintertree - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> and can't afford a £10000 car?

Unless I have grossly misunderstood, you are talking nonsense here.  The ULEZ effectively bans pre 2015 diesels and pre 2006 petrol cars. Compliant Ford Focus cars start at about £500.

Or are you complaining that you can’t drive a cheap diesel around London?  

Post edited at 18:31
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Neil Williams - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to wintertree:

The ULEZ doesn't "effectively ban" anything as far as private cars go.  It's an extra £12.50 on top of the C-charge (and applicable at all times).  If you don't go to London often, that's nothing against the cost of parking etc.  And who goes via Central London if they don't need to?

The expanded Zone will be more of an "issue" in this sense but again who doesn't just go round the M25?  You only drive in London if one end of your journey is in London, as it's so grim anyway.

I suppose we might see a stigma of driving a non-compliant car just as we are now seeing one of asking for a bag in a supermarket...

Post edited at 18:41
Irk the Purist - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Mr Lopez:

I have asthma, it's not even that bad. But on many days through the summer I can't go outdoors in London. I cough all the way home on the train and have to carry my inhaler at all times in case I cant breathe.

I couldn't give a shit about your errands.

You live in one of the best served cities for public transport in the world. There is single ticketing, cross modal pricing and thousands of start ups like Citymapper, Uber etc making travel easier, faster and cheaper than ever before. You have bike hire schemes, underground and overground rail networks that run every 5 mins. You have the best bus network I've ever used. If public transport doesn't work you are well served by car clubs and sharing schemes.

Ditch the car. 

2
Mr Lopez - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Why?  It is unnecessary to own a car in most of London.  The public transport is superb

That'd only apply in inner London, certainly not far out close to the N/S circular unless you paid a premium to live close to decent transport links.

> Use a car club or short term hire if you need one.

Sure, so next time i get home after work at 6pm and have to go do the laundry, pick up a parcel from a depot and do some food shopping i'll just take a 10 minute walk to the bus stop, 2 buses a train and a 10 minute walk to go to a car hire place, hand a wad of money, sign the papers, do the insurance, drive home, grab the laundry, go to the depot, oh shit, it's closed now. Oh well, go to the laundry, ooops, last wash was at 7:30, nevermind. go to the shop, buy food for the week, go back home, drop the shopping, drive back to the hire place, park the car, take a 10 minute walk back to the station, train back home, 2 more buses, short jog home. Get home at close to midnight. Just spent £60 in transport, still need to do the laundry, the parcel is still waiting at the depot, i'm knackered and haven't even had dinner yet. 2 days later i get an email saying my credit card is being charged £400 because there's a scratch in the hire car.

Wow, can't wait. Thanks for the idea

7
galpinos on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

What’s the myth? They are less polluting than IC cars and improve air quality at point of use.

In the long term, we need to reduce our reliance on private vehicles but transitioning to electric vehicles is a sensible setting stone.

marsbar - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Mr Lopez:

My 05 plate car is apparently fine for the extended zone when it starts.  

Totally agree that public transport isn't as wonderful as it is painted unless you are going from certain places to the middle.  I had to get a hire car to get to work when mine was broken, 10 miles around the north circular, the alternative was almost 3 hours and several buses round or 2 buses and 2 trains or tubes in and out. 

Neil Williams - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Sure, so next time i get home after work at 6pm and have to go do the laundry, pick up a parcel from a depot and do some food shopping i'll just take a 10 minute walk to the bus stop, 2 buses a train and a 10 minute walk to go to a car hire place, hand a wad of money, sign the papers, do the insurance, drive home, grab the laundry, go to the depot, oh shit, it's closed now. Oh well, go to the laundry, ooops, last wash was at 7:30, nevermind. go to the shop, buy food for the week, go back home, drop the shopping, drive back to the hire place, park the car, take a 10 minute walk back to the station, train back home, 2 more buses, short jog home. Get home at close to midnight. Just spent £60 in transport, still need to do the laundry, the parcel is still waiting at the depot, i'm knackered and haven't even had dinner yet. 2 days later i get an email saying my credit card is being charged £400 because there's a scratch in the hire car.

> Wow, can't wait. Thanks for the idea

Get a washing machine or use a more local launderette or dry cleaner or a service that collects and drops off.  Have the parcel delivered somewhere local, e.g. Royal Mail Local Collect or DPD dropoff.  Order your shopping online and top up from local small shops.

Even as a car owner this is what I do anyway, as that runaround is an utter waste of an evening when I'd rather be (let's go back on topic) climbing!

Also, Google "car clubs" - you don't have to do any of that faff to collect one, once a member you tap your card on the windscreen, get in and drive.  We don't have them in MK, but they are very widespread in London.

1
Neil Williams - on 10 Apr 2019
In reply to galpinos:

> In the long term, we need to reduce our reliance on private vehicles but transitioning to electric vehicles is a sensible setting stone.

Indeed so.  We just need to make sure the message is "it's better to drive an electric car than a diesel one, but it's better still to cycle or use public transport", not "electric cars are environmentally friendly".  I fear the message is tending towards the latter.

David Riley - on 11 Apr 2019
In reply to nufkin:

> But one bus also carries considerably more than 60 people, on a footprint that's not much different to four or five cars

Although they often run nearly empty.  Especially out of town in the morning and into town in the evening..

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