UKH

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55742664

I thought I must have misheard when I caught this on the radio news last night but no.  In an example of outstandingly childish post-Brexit pettiness, and at a time when we are apparently intent on creating a close and friendly new relationship with our closest neighbour, Dominic Raab really is refusing to recognise the diplomatic status of the EU, on the grounds that it's just another 'international organisation', not a state.

The EU is recognised by 142 other countries, but not us, apparently.  How many other international organisations allow entire populations to vote for their parliament, have their own currency, laws and courts?

OK the EU is not a sovereign state but this action does seem a bit churlish, especially as we would not be doing anything different from the other 142 countries.

Dave

It's a zero cost opportunity to show goodwill to our biggest trading partner.

Somehow sarcastic Dutch customs officers pinching truck driver's ham sandwiches doesn't look so mean spirited does it? 

There's a BBC story I read this morning basically about one woman order clothes online from an EU webshop and getting stung for customs charges. It seemed weird that they gave just that quite a lot of coverage, but I guess it's just representative of the now presumably tens of thousands of "Oh, ffs" moments happening round the country as people try to pick up a parcel, renew some insurance, or take a packed lunch into Holland or whatever and find its either not possible, more expensive, or more hassle than it was last year. 

But you know, democracy! Sovereignty! Other stuff! Allegedly.

But from the other perspective a significant but deferred cost opportunity for Raab and his ilk to pander to the brexit press and by association, voters they hope will form their ongoing power base.

We can only hope, somewhat forlornly, this is a miscalculation and that the nightmare of incompetent nationalist populism will peak soon.

jk

This bit from the BBC article might well be the reason for it:

"Some in the EU also fear hostile states might copy the UK and downgrade the protections granted to EU diplomats in their own countries. This could open them up to being harassed and make them easier for them to be expelled."

The UK government may simply consider it to be to their advantage, to weaken the EU's status.

That would be quite delusional.
So basically the government is either delusional, or petty.

My bet is on both.

Where are UKC's resident Brexiteers to tell us how it's what they voted for, legitimate grievances, bloody French, etc.

The USA has already finished with its experiment in alt-right populism. We're still stuck with Brexit! :/

I look forward to Raab informing the US Ambassador that he doesn't really represent a sovereign country and that we would in future only recognise envoys from each state. 

Hostility to your biggest trading partner. Great idea.

Note what I said recently.  Brexit = Badwill !=Goodwill

I = ASHAMED

Dominic.Raab.Destroy()

Yep. Pretty much a defining characteristic of this government, though.

Don't count your chickens yet. Biden will be very old in 4 years time which quite possibly means the democrats choosing a new candidate or perhaps Harris, a woman of colour in deeply polarised America, fighting for reelection as acting president. Almost certainly this occurs against a backdrop of Donald Trump and the MAGA hat crowd in full Musth, whether standing again himself in 2024 or promoting Ivanka. The republican party faces once again rolling over and nominating a headline grabbing Trump or racing to the bottom to out-Trump the Trump candidate (even if he/she stands as an independent) the effect could be a lunatic making the cut for the republicans further normalising extremism and debasing ordinary republicans all but forced to back their candidate. The only saving grace being an independent Trump candidate would significantly split the conservative/nationalist vote excluding both.

The second wave could yet be worse.

jk

Unfortunatey there is going to be alot of this type of thing especially as both sides are still continuing to negotiate . The deal on the 31/12 was just a stop gap, quite a few issues were just rolled over and extended for a year (Country of origin being an example). This reflected how complex the whole position was.

There are ongoing discussions at the moment to try and ease customs delays ( which can be viewed as in neither sides interest).

Its an utter shambles and illustrates the niaveity of Brexiters who thought we could just up and walk away in a simple clean break.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we have an ambassador to the UN? and the UN is not a sovereign state.

Now you're just being picky.

Shhhhh! When the gammons hear about that, they’ll want the UN ambassador removed too. 

There isn't an UN ambassador to the Court of St James (or any other country), i.e. all states have ambassadors to the UN, but the UN doesn't have ambassadors anywhere I don't think. I guess the diplomatic protections for say the UK ambassador to the UN HQ is really from US law. I think it's really only inside the building in Turtle Bay where you aren't legally in US legal jurisdiction. Officials from UN agencies in countries round the world might well get diplomatic protection but that may well be up to individual governments. Some use those kinds of rights as perks to attract international institutions. I worked for 6 months for UNEP, I was paid in US dollars from Geneva, into my Finnish bank account in Helsinki where I lived and worked from, but the Finnish government didn't want any tax from me, as they didn't charge it on people working for international agencies - which was nice!

Refusing to recognise the EU ambassador doesn't seem like a great way of furthering those discussions.

OK thanks for that.

Although this https://www.gov.uk/world/organisations/uk-mission-to-the-eu looks a bit awkward now!

Yep.

Never said  otherwise. 

I don't really understand what people expected*. When I bought stuff from MEC in Canada, I knew I had to pay duty and handling charge. I factored that into the cost of the things I bought when I decided to buy them

* I do, actually: they were told they could have their cake, and eat it; we would have free trade, and no paperwork.

Its pitifully churlish and childish.  No wonder we end up having wars!

recognizing someone else's ambassador as a diplomat reduces one's sovereignty with respect to that ambassador

When the EU decided to coordinate its external representation in 2010, the UK agreed that the EU should of course have ambassadors to third nations.

There will be a price to pay for arseholery. Even Trump recognized this, eventually.

CB

If the EU is just an 'international organization' and not a state that is an existential threat to sovereignty, then they are admitting that one of the key arguments for Brexit is bollocks. 

This seems to be our equivalent of Tangoman not attending the inauguration. 

this is exactly why we left in the first place. The EU trying to act like it is a United states of Europe. We already recognise the Ambassador from the EU, all 27 of them! There is no need for a 28th. No reason why we cant treat any representatives from the EU with courtesy when they are in the UK without the need to define them as 'Ambassadors'.

It is almost as if the world is a different place to what it was when the EU was founded and the old rules don't quite apply now!! 

142 other countries seem to have recognised that, shame we are heading backwards

So, so embarrassing.

Is there anything more our government could possibly do to make us look like a nation of utter bellends?  (Rhetorical question, I have absolutely no doubt that they'll think of something.)

As far as I remember member states have ambassadors to the EU, in Brussels as distinct to the ambassador to Belgium (although some might be double hatted). I might be wrong on this but the member states might have missions to the EU as opposed to embassies. I suspect there is legal stuff behind all the nomenclature, but I'm totally not an international law lawyer!

Fishing again...🤣🤣

I suspect lots of younger people in particular just simply didn't realise. I mean why would you after decades of the single market meaning that you just don't notice the borders inside the Union? I remember buying stuff from MEC in the 90s and paying customs, but since then I've only got stuff from there when friends have been travelling to Canada and could bring it back tax free. Normally you could find anything within the EU for as good a price.

The EU is very very different to when it was founded (and all of its previous guises). and it is steadily marching on in a direction that a significant proportion of people throughout Europe do not want. There is a rise in nationalism and anti-EU sentiment in all 4 corners of the continent, not just ours. instead of acknowledging this fact and realising that the EU has over-stepped its remit, the current batch of eurocrats and politicians are blindly plowing forward with thier dream of a federal US of E. their actions are fanning the flames of nationalism in parts of the continent far more dangerous than a few Grannies in Clackton.

I remember going to an event at the UK Embassy to the EU (rather than Belgium) many years ago. Can't remember the occassion but good (French) Champagne  was served.

Proud boys it is...keep it up...

There is a rise in nationalism, there was a rise in anti-EU sentiment, until we selflessly stepped in to save the E.U. by demonstrating just how bad the consequences of leaving the E.U. could be.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/how-the-uk-killed-euroscepticism-across-...

Holy Moley, and you honestly believe this crap?

Everyone who actually dealt with customs knew about this.  I remember going to the airport to deal with customs in person rather than paying a large fee to a handling agent when someone in the US sent me a package and it didn't clear customs.   

The problem is the large number of people who never deal with international trade who refused to believe the people who do and bought into a cart load of total sh*te.

I hope he's better at moderating the crags...

Whether you see that as a reason for leaving is entirely irrelevant, you are not a member anymore.

The UK government recognized and supported in 2010 that the EU has or aims at a unified foreign policy in certain fields, for which from then on the EU, not the individual states are the proper partner in international negotiations.

This logic remains valid for the R27. Thus, EU embassies become a necessity BECAUSE THE EU AS A BLOCK DECIDED TO ORGANIZE ITSELF IN THAT MANNER.

Anyone who wants to negotiate topics with EU member states that they have delegated to the union (e.g. trade!) will have talk to the EU ambassador instead, or they can talk to the parking meter. Even the US who pulled a similar stunt in 2018 realized that after a year or so.

Anyway, the Brexit negotiations should have made that abundantly clear even to the last ERG thicko* : Brexit negotiations were delegated to the EU, any UK attempts to negotiate bilaterally with France or Germany fell on deaf ears.

The whole episode is coming across very badly in the EU, and there will be a price to pay for such poundshop Trump style rudeness.

CB

* these negotiations of course started as negotiations between 27+1 member states, so there was no EU ambassador to the UK initially, but the principle stands: The member states decide who speaks for them on a specific topic.

edit> 4th para edited for clarity

Your profile says you are 24. Is that roughly correct? Just wondering what the historical context is for your view. 

What is particularly baffling is to do something that recalls what Trump did to the EU ambassador just at a time when Biden takes office.

Well actually, it’s not baffling, it merely confirms the UK government is motivated by hatred and pettiness rather than the national interest.

If you want to be taken seriously could you please make just the tiniest effort with your spelling? Otherwise I'm tempted to think you've made as much effort developing your arguments as you have communicating them.

We have to send a message that we're not just going to bend over and drop our pants every time they ask us to

From your age you have only a theoretical experience of pre EU and only a few years experience of the EU as an adult.  Must be rather difficult to make comparisons some times.

You're from Essex, aren't you? 

You've not read CB294's post further up.

how long was that thought in gestation?

Right.  And you think that’s the message we’re sending do you?

ignorance?

bullshit?

or Both?

You are Mark Francois and I claim my £5

Whatever in the phrase 'bend over and drop our pants' make you think of Parliament's very own (and rather quiet lately) D-Day Dawson?

All Champagne is french.

Quite possible that was the idea (or else pandering to naive flag wavers like yourself). Either way it would not be a particularly cunning plan.

Even the US under Trump, who in 2018/9 had a tad more leverage than the UK has in 2021 tried and failed to bully and divide the EU using that trick*.

Instead, the message went the other way, and after a year Trump quietly reinstated the status quo ante.

If the US had tried that stunt with a hypothetical Union of Caribean Islands, I am sure they would have gotten their way.

CB

* of course the US would like to bias the interactions with Europe to bilateral negotiations with individual states (which will still exist for certain topics), as they will always have leverage over individual states in trade negotiations in particular, where size is might. 

This is PRECISELY the reason why these topics are delegated to Brussles, which the Americans eventually learned the hard way.

How exactly does this achieve that?

Hah! Pun not intended - i'd forgotten all about the alleged reasons why an un-named MP missed a period in parliament due to unforeseen legal issues.

And obviously i had no way of knowing that it could have been Mr Francois, even if it was he who missed that period in parliament, as that MP was granted anonimity.

I just thought he, being in the top 3 half brained arsewipes in parliament, is likely to have uttered this type of thing.

Not if you're in the US. They will serve up Californian Moet and call it champagne...

Acting passive-aggressive towards allies who are bigger and stronger than you is self-destructive. It's what incontinent wannabe bullies do when they can't find anyone weaker than themselves to pick on.

Being a bully was the British way in the 19th century. In the 20th century Britain stood up to bullies: it's not untrue to say that Britain saved Europe from fascism. We're not fighting that battle any more, and somehow, in the 21st century we seem to have switched sides. Of which Britain are you most proud?

And nothing achieves that like pettiness, obviously.

Besides, let's face it, we basically are. That's what happens when you enter into negotiations with a trading partner six times your size.

jcm

I'm sure that now we have taken back control, we will be able to call English sparkling wine champagne. I mean, after all, we invented it (blah blah blah)

Probably too bored of being called c**ts and racists to bother replying.

[Also after reading the thread, having their intelligence insulted too]

The truth (for some of them) hurts doesn't it

For the rest, being reminded they got conned hurts even more.

In the case of one regular poster of covid misinformation - who claims to be simply trolling - I’m not sure there can be anything to insult, given that they continue to do this given where the nation is right now.

Petty, and shameful, and embarrassing 

Luckily the UK is still in the EU's sphere of influence, so nonsense like that is not allowed

I've drunk some very nice 'champagne' in Georgia, maybe the UK can start to import that now ?

I agree with your sentiment in the first sentence. 

If you remove someone’s rights after a campaign based on lies about foreigners, expect to be called a c¥n7 and a xenophobe. Racist is not the correct description. 

Odd, then, that after several years of not being bored of being called racist that they choose the exact moment that reality is kicking in to become bored of it.

They might be in hiding but we remember who they are.

This line made me laugh...