Tree of the year felled

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 bouldery bits 20 Oct 2020

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/20/former-tree-of-the-year-fel...

This has made me feel quite sad.

All so that Important business business business types can get to Birmingham 18 minutes faster.

Have they not heard of zoom? Or teams? Or.... A phone? 

Feel free to provide a nuanced argument below. I'm going to enjoy some trees in the rain like a scandi hippy tw*t. Maybe I'll see some elves.

Post edited at 18:23
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 MG 20 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

HS2 is basically a religion. Those who back it think it solves all problems and can do no wrong..

2
 mondite 20 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

The primary argument is supposed to increase capacity overall including freight and, if it any managed to get further north than Birmingham it would help a fairly knackered system.

Chances of that happening though?

 gethin_allen 20 Oct 2020
In reply to mondite:

> ... Chances of that happening though?

I think the only way to guarantee that the northern half would get built would have been to start the whole thing in the North. 

that way the south wouldn't get their bit until the end and would surely push it through.

1
In reply to bouldery bits:

Is this the price of progress?

I give up on this planet and it's self centred, locast-like inhabitants.

Post edited at 20:44
 wercat 20 Oct 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

are you from K-Pax?

 Yanis Nayu 20 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

Me too. It’s just vandalism. Near us there a wood full of wildlife with a nice walk round it. People take there kids there, walk the dogs etc. It’s magical. The whole area around it is being developed for housing - thousands and thousands of units. Despite this, they’re trying to get it razed to build on. Sociopaths. 

In reply to bouldery bits:

There were plans to move it; £250,000 was considered too much for such a special tree. Regardless of whether you agree with high speed rail, this was simply vandalism. The original plan was to tunnel under the hill rather than cut it in half and kill the tree. 

1
 birdie num num 20 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

I’ve got a log burner

5
 Lankyman 21 Oct 2020
In reply to birdie num num:

> I’ve got a log burner


Joni Mitchell had it right: 'Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till it's gone'

Have you stocked up for the winter?

 Dan Arkle 21 Oct 2020

In reply to:

Why was this tree of the year? 

A. As a tactical ploy by campaigners to delay/frustrate HS2. It was a nice tree, but pretty close to the end of its natural life anyway. 

Anyway, back to the bigger question of is HS2 a good project - I think it isn't. Too much disruption, destruction and opposition. And the money involved is almost unbelievable. 

5
 Rob Exile Ward 21 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

HS2 has only ever been the mother of all vanity projects - no doubt Johnson has wet dreams about unveiling a plaque  in front of the world at some unspecified date in the future - and an opportunity for private sector consultants and construction companies to bleed the UK dry. 

I'll make a prediction. HS2 won't run in my lifetime. Crossrail anyone?

 GrahamD 21 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

Personally I welcome any attempt to get the country's public transport infrastructure at least slightly up to date, admittedly only 40 or 50 years behind France.

Of course costs are high, with the misinformation bandwaggon in fulll steam ("to get people to/from Birmingham 18 minutes faster").

 Toccata 21 Oct 2020
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

They have been quietly building HS2 for the last 3 years. An access junction has been completed for over a year on the A38 at Lichfield and was only signposted (HS2 entry) the week of BJ's announcement. The HS2 M42 bridge has been in preparation for 2 years and was in place a month before HS2 was 'confirmed'; this was BJ's first HS2 site visit.

They will build a new train line but whether it will be on budget (no chance), be high speed (questionable) or significantly improve journey times (doubtful) remains to be seen.

 Offwidth 21 Oct 2020
In reply to mondite:

HS2 doesn't give any economically beneficial increased capacity now  it is quite a bit more expensive than building two new standard fast lines with even more capacity. It's become the biggest infrastructure white elephant in UK history.

High speed lines use way more energy, take twice the land and can't curve round important SSIs as well as standard fast lines.

As MG says HS2 is like a religion... as an engineer who passionately belives in infrastructure investment I'd say it's more like a cult.

 flatlandrich 21 Oct 2020
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> Why was this tree of the year? 

> A. As a tactical ploy by campaigners to delay/frustrate HS2. It was a nice tree, but pretty close to the end of its natural life anyway. 

You're probably right there. Although wild pears aren't common, especially that size or age so it was an important tree. 

>  And the money involved is almost unbelievable. 

No wonder it's costing so much, there's at least a dozen 'officials' in that picture watching and just two guys working.

 dread-i 21 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

The problem I see with the HS2 project is that it wont take traffic away from airlines and it wont reduce lorries on the road, by any great extent.

I cant get on a train in Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow etc and get off in France or Spain. There is no north south route across or around London. I believe there is a freight line, or marshaling yard for freight, but not a high speed route.

Brexit chaos is about to cause Kent to become a lorry park. This would be an ideal time to use an integrated freight system. Push customs checks out to the regions. Bung an iso container on a train and use lorries only for the local delivery part. 

 Rob Parsons 21 Oct 2020
In reply to dread-i:

> ... There is no north south route across or around London.

There is, if you accept that St Pancras is the hub at which you change.

That's equivalent to France, isn't it? Everything goes via Paris, and you'd typically have to change stations within the capital. (Or have I got that wrong?)

I agree that you wouldn't invent the situation like this if you were starting from scratch.

 Offwidth 21 Oct 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

I agree entirely with your general point. Yet HS2 is a huge money pit which prevents more economically beneficial investment happening. Anyone who cares about proper economic assessment should oppose HS2. Even at its inception the economic benefits were borderline and people were not as focussed then on the 'greeness' of power efficiency issues of high speed.  HS2 is at its current estimated costs (which are still very likely to grow) of significant negative benefit and guzzles power for little useful benefit in travel time or capacity. As I said, two standard fast lines would now be cheaper, given the feasibility studies on other routes (like reopening the old Nottingham line). What we really need is better rail links across the north and midlands, linked to ports north of London, so that less northern freight needs to travel past London.

 DancingOnRock 21 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

A tree is a tree. Many more will be planted along the route. Wonder how much opposition there was to coal mining? I know how much opposition there was when we tried to end it. But look...

https://www.nationalforest.org

Post edited at 11:12
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 GrahamD 21 Oct 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

"Economic Benefit" is a tough equation, I'll grant you.  On the minus side, just why HS2 has cost so much so far is criminal - as a country we don't seem to be able to build anything before having squandered half the cost on consultations.  I seriously doubt we'd ever be able to build a Millau viaduct equivalent in this country.

On the plus side, I'd rank trying to establish a modern rail system very highly.  I think high speed energy economics is a bit of a red herring.  Once you have a HS capable line you can choose how to deploy it for the best benefit, using renewables more and more.

Of course the North South backbone shouldn't distract from up grading other parts of the rail infrastructure.  It should never be couched as either/or.

1
 Hat Dude 21 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

I live near to Cubbington, where the Pear tree was situated, also in the area a large area of ancient woodland has been felled. A lot of my favourite cycling routes are around where HS2 runs to the southeast of Leamington Spa and the scale of tree felling is extraordinary with trees and hedges seeming to be cleared hundreds of metres away from where the line will run.

 toad 21 Oct 2020
In reply to Hat Dude:

.scale of tree felling is extraordinary with trees and hedges seeming to be cleared hundreds of metres away from where the line will run.

This is the problem with HS2. It isn't an ordinary railway line. It's so delicate and special that it has to run pretty much on a smooth flat plain.  So there are lots of big shallow embankments, which means it has a massive footprint compared to ordinary railways. lots of people initially surprised/ caught out because they didn't realise the scale of the width of the work - it isn't just a line. It's effectively a big strip of sterilised ground - no wildlife corridors, habitat fragmentation etc etc. 

 earlsdonwhu 21 Oct 2020
In reply to Hat Dude:

Yep, We are in S Coventry and as you say, the scale of destruction is massive. Useless detours, poor signage, and huge areas affected just to build the access roads for the convoys bringing in  the concrete and steel.

I just wish that I had bought shares in the firms that have provided hundreds of miles of metal fencing and thousands of armadillo cameras to spot infiltrators. 

 Offwidth 21 Oct 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

That's all well and good saying it shouldn't be either or but the UK infrastructure improvement budget is limited. I'd possibly support the current line being standard highish speed. The land required would be halved immediately. The curves could be sharper bypassing SSIs (or at least better protecting the most important parts of them), safety limitations would be much less severe, costs much reduced, power usage much reduced. Capacity and travel time would be negligibly different in practical terms.

 birdie num num 21 Oct 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

> Joni Mitchell had it right: 'Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till it's gone'

> Have you stocked up for the winter?

I was thinking more Bruce Springsteen: ‘Every cloud has a silver lining, every dog has his day’

Yep... fully stocked

In reply to dread-i:

There is a passenger line between Croydon and joining the GWR west of Paddington, albeit a low speed line. 

 MG 21 Oct 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> There is, if you accept that St Pancras is the hub at which you change.

That is true. So you have to ask why hs2 is not going there!

In reply to MG:

They would have had to demolish buildings owned by rich people and they are so much more important than trees or ordinary people. 

 AndyC 22 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

I'm not sure what a scandi hippy is, but over here in Oslo they just felled several hundred metres of trees to widen the road for cycles lanes on each side. Now I feel bad every time I cycle that route. It wasn't even a problem road, the politicians just wanted to tick some boxes. When it's finished, the motorists will get to the next queue a few seconds faster.

 dread-i 22 Oct 2020
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

> There is a passenger line between Croydon and joining the GWR west of Paddington, albeit a low speed line. 


Which kinda reinforces the point I was making.

If all European flights involved taking off from your local regional airport, then changing at Heathrow then on wards, it would be a pain. We seem to accept that railways are a second class form of transport, even the new ones.

 Flinticus 22 Oct 2020
In reply to AndyC:

This kind of f*ckwittery really gets me down.

We had BR or whoever manages the lines in Scotland cut down a series of mature (but not old) trees near me until residents protesting manged to get it stopped

They've been upgrading the Burrell Museum in Pollok Park. Of course the large Chestnut tree near the main entrance had to go...

Park development always seems to result in less park and more infrastructure! 

 graeme jackson 22 Oct 2020
In reply to Flinticus:

> This kind of f*ckwittery really gets me down.

> We had BR or whoever manages the lines in Scotland cut down a series of mature (but not old) trees near me until residents protesting manged to get it stopped

> They've been upgrading the Burrell Museum in Pollok Park. Of course the large Chestnut tree near the main entrance had to go...

> Park development always seems to result in less park and more infrastructure! 


Reminds me of the 50 odd trees cut down in Princes street gardens a couple of years ago, supposedly so they could build a better access path to the national gallery. So far the only ones to have benefitted have been the stall-holders at Edinburgh's xmas market.

 Rob Parsons 22 Oct 2020
In reply to graeme jackson:

> ... So far the only ones to have benefitted have been the stall-holders at Edinburgh's xmas market.

On the bright side, that abortion of a thing is another casualty of Covid this year.

With luck, the 'Underbelly' company will completely go under, and better sense might prevail in future years. (But I am not optimistic.)

 DenzelLN 22 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

I was going to do my masters dissertation on the impacts of HS2 on listed heritage assets - abandoned the idea as the scale of it is so vast. From memory, some cursory reading around the topic suggested that up to 7000 designated assets could be affected.

I do a bit of fishing as well and some real historic lakes are being infilled, really is sad.

In reply to dread-i:

I was not disagreeing, just celebrating one of the quirky rail links that still exist. Allows one to travel from Brighton to Glasgow without changing. 

 JohnBson 23 Oct 2020

They probably made it Tree of The Year because it was about to be felled for HS2 and they had a political axe to grind. 

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 dread-i 23 Oct 2020
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

>I was not disagreeing, just celebrating one of the quirky rail links that still exist. Allows one to travel from Brighton to Glasgow without changing. 

I agree that you weren't disagreeing. I expect that you have some intimate knowledge of railways, in a good way. Trainline seems to suggest a stop at St Panc. a tube ride, then a train from Euston to Glasgow.

Trainline says it's nearly 7 hours of travel. It would probably be closer to 10 hours or more on a bad day, if one were to drive it. No doubt a similar time to get to Dover. If I wanted to go to Europe, it makes sense to stick the car on a train somewhere up north and let the train take the strain. But these options are not available, so there is no investment, which means that these options are not available, so there is no investment (see where I'm going with this?)

Last time I drove to France, it involved a hotel stop on the south coast, to break up the journey. It's not nice having to drive through the night in order to catch an early ferry. The additional cost for rail, would be offset, by not having to book a hotel.


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