Train rage

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 Greenbanks 02 Jul 2019

An impromptu attempt to do a quick trip next week up to Leyland (Lancs) from Watford next week has hit the buffers in spectacular fashion. Off peak, quoted at £256.43. I simply cannot understand. Apart, of course, from a huge slice of that fare being trousered by fat cat shareholders.

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 MG 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

Try again. £60-£110 depending on   times

https://splittraintickets.trainsplit.com/timetable_fares.aspx

 Neil Williams 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

No idea where you got that from, that isn't one of the fares (or is more than one person going?)

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=WFJ&dest=LEY

The Off Peak Return route "not London" is £95.30.  That is valid thus:

not valid from Watford Junction after 04:29 and before 09:38 or after 15:00 and before 18:38.

and return not valid arriving:

Milton Keynes Central after 06:38 until 10:48;

Watford Junction after 06:43 until 10:45.

(both of these may apply if you change at MKC)

Post edited at 22:01
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 Andy Hardy 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

> No idea where you got that from, that isn't one of the fares (or is more than one person going?)

> The Off Peak Return route "not London" is £95.30.  That is valid thus:

> not valid from Watford Junction after 04:29 and before 09:38 or after 15:00 and before 18:38.

> and return not valid arriving:

> Milton Keynes Central after 06:38 until 10:48;

> Watford Junction after 06:43 until 10:45.

> (both of these may apply if you change at MKC)

Did you design Ryanair's website?

pasbury 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Marketisation of the railway network has been a truly wonderful thing hasn’t it?

2
OP Greenbanks 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

Thanks. I got the fare from Trainline. OK, not the best for pricing I admit - but once I start trying to decode both the split-fare site & the one from br, I find that I am locked into so many provisos, restrictions and exceptions, resulting in (still) an exhorbitant sum. The point is, if the trains actually did what they were originally intended to do - carry me from point A to point B for a reasonable published/fixed price - this game of Casino pin-balling wouldn't be needed. In spite of what successive governments have claimed/promised, fares have increased exponentially whilst the complexity continues to require a Hawking intellect to deconstruct and the patience of Job to secure a result. I can only surmise that the UK train system, in its entireity, is owned by a cartel of car manufacturers and OPEC members

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 FactorXXX 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

> Thanks. I got the fare from Trainline.

https://www.thetrainline.com/book/results?origin=ddf23c53062311a17f15720bd0...

£104.30 using Trainline.
Off-Peak Return.
Depart Watford Junction at 1028 09/07/19
Arrive London Euston 1044
Leave London Euston 1100
Arrive Stockport 1254
Depart Stockport 1311
Arrive Leyland 1416

Goes down to £95.30 at later times, but might require an extra stop.

OP Greenbanks 02 Jul 2019
In reply to FactorXXX:

Thanks - maybe I need to dig a bit further, tho' I'm attempting to be as flexible as I can be.

Incidentally, your link provides an excellent illustration of what bugs me - a princely £458.11 for an anytime return between the two places. A week's wages for many.

 Neil Williams 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Did you design Ryanair's website?


No, I did a quick copy paste job.  (Ryanair's website is quite good, anyway, unlike everything else they do).

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 FactorXXX 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

> Thanks - maybe I need to dig a bit further, tho' I'm attempting to be as flexible as I can be.

Think the same price applies to all Off-Peak, so plenty to choose from.

> Incidentally, your link provides an excellent illustration of what bugs me - a princely £458.11 for an anytime return between the two places. A week's wages for many.

I suppose if people are willing to pay that much, then the Train Company would be fools for not taking it.  You could also argue that those expensive fares subsidise/pay for cheaper fares elsewhere and provide money for infrastructure improvements, etc.

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 Neil Williams 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

£458.11?  You are getting some weird fares - rail fares are priced in 5p increments.  Anytime Return is a still outrageous £391.  You've not got the price set to Euro or something, have you?[1]

Don't buy from Trainline, by the way - they charge extra booking fees.  If you want to book online do it via Virgin's site.  That has the added bonus of a seat selector.  But the £95.30 (not via London)/£104.30 (via London) Off Peak Returns do not sell out and can be purchased immediately before travel at the ticket office/machine if you wish to do that and don't care about seat reservations.

Select "avoiding London" if you want to just see the 95.30 one, you'll probably get it telling you to change at Milton Keynes Central.

[1] Yes, you have - if you switch it to Euro you get EUR458.11 - switch it back!

Post edited at 22:49
 FactorXXX 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

> An impromptu attempt to do a quick trip next week up to Leyland (Lancs) from Watford next week has hit the buffers in spectacular fashion. Off peak, quoted at £256.43. I simply cannot understand. Apart, of course, from a huge slice of that fare being trousered by fat cat shareholders.

Oh, by the way, forgot to say: Are you doing a Corbyn and sitting in the corridor when there are actually seats available?

 jethro kiernan 02 Jul 2019
In reply to FactorXXX:You could also argue that those expensive fares subsidise/pay for cheaper fares elsewhere and provide money for infrastructure improvements, etc.

Aaaaaw bless!

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 FactorXXX 02 Jul 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan:

> You could also argue that those expensive fares subsidise/pay for cheaper fares elsewhere and provide money for infrastructure improvements, etc.

> Aaaaaw bless!

I did make sure I included the word 'argue' in that comment...

OP Greenbanks 02 Jul 2019
In reply to FactorXXX

Maybe I'm frail enough to require a seat.

 Bobling 02 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

I found that popping into a big station and going to the advanced sales counter was helpful.  The folks behind the counter spend all day navigating the Byzantine complexities of our system and can help you avoid the nightmare of the various internet portals.  

Or....google maps says it takes 20 hours on a push-bike!

 Dax H 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

If there are more than one of you going just hire a car. 

 Billhook 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

I remember the old days when you phoned the ticket office and and simply asked how much?

 Neil Williams 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Dax H:

> If there are more than one of you going just hire a car.


But then you have the disadvantages of driving, such as the inability to use the time for something else.

(If you enjoy long distance motorway driving this will obviously be different for you.  I enjoy interesting driving, e.g. around somewhere like the Peak on country lanes, but not long motorway slogs).

Post edited at 09:39
 dunc56 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

I tried to look up bus prices and it says you need to do :-

Train, walk, bus, walk, tram, walk, bus, walk, bus, walk. 

That's integration for you. 

To be fair there is another option - 

Train, walk, train, walk, bus, walk, bus, bus, walk, train. 

Dead easy. 

 wintertree 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

> But then you have the disadvantages of driving, such as the inability to use the time for something else.

For me, driving time is higher quality “thinking time” than most train journeys these says.  Less smell of chemical toilet, less listening to other people’s music and less enduring their perfume...

1
 krikoman 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

£12 to go from one end of India to the other!!

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 Ramblin dave 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Dax H:

If there's a couple of you going, get a Two Together railcard. It costs about thirty quid and it gives you a third off pretty much any train journey that the two of you make together, so it basically pays for itself on an intercity journey.

 Neil Williams 03 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> £12 to go from one end of India to the other!!

With staff paid poverty wages (I mean *real* poverty wages on which you can barely afford a bowl of rice, not ones that just mean you have to eat Tesco Value food in your Council house) you can't really compare that with the UK.

Relevant comparisons are other Western European countries, particularly Germany which has a similar flexible, non-mandatory reservation train system that we do, and has surprisingly similar fares, too.

Post edited at 10:49
 Martin W 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

> Maybe I'm frail enough to require a seat.

You can get a reserved seat on most services, but of course if you need the reservation you're tied to the train that the reservation is on.  In which case you might as well take an advanced fare, which is even cheaper than off-peak (e.g. £47 departing Watford Junction at 11:04 a week today) and actually requires seat reservations where available.

 Neil Williams 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Martin W:

Though if you are making a return journey, two of those (£94) saves you all of £1.50 over the Off Peak Return despite the considerably lower flexibility.  If nothing else, the Off Peak Return is refundable less £10 if your plans change.

 Yanis Nayu 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

It’s yet another example of how fundamentally f*cked things are in this country. 

 MG 03 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

I assume in 3rd class on bench seats?

Removed User 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks

Try breaking the journey into parts. I did this recently from Sowerby Bridge in Yorkshire to Oban . I was quoted on Trainline £152 off peak. when I broke it down into parts  I got the following:

Sowerby Bridge-Leeds £6

Leeds -Glasgow(change at Carlisle) £27

Glasgow -Oban £16

Which was a considerable saving and no difference in train times. Sometimes off peak day returns can be cheaper than the single fare. The way this weird and not so wonderful market works is a mystery.

mick taylor 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

I was once travelling from Preston back to Wigan and accidentally got on the London Euston express.  We whizzed through Wigan at stupid speed, with me looking out the window open mouthed and very confused. Told the ticket bloke what I had done.  He laughed, and wrote a note on my ticket, with words to the effect ‘this stupid northern man caught the wrong fekin train, so let him catch the train from London to Wigan for free’.  Which they did.  Perhaps you could do similar in reverse....

 krikoman 04 Jul 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

> With staff paid poverty wages (I mean *real* poverty wages on which you can barely afford a bowl of rice, not ones that just mean you have to eat Tesco Value food in your Council house) you can't really compare that with the UK.

£347 a month in India for a commercial Clerk isn't poverty wages, I know wages aren't great in India, but the railways are sought-after jobs, so they're not poverty wages, in comparison to other jobs in India, cleaner, maid, waiter or gravel maker for roads.

> Relevant comparisons are other Western European countries, particularly Germany which has a similar flexible, non-mandatory reservation train system that we do, and has surprisingly similar fares, too.

I do realise that, it was a bit of a joke, but hey ho!

 krikoman 04 Jul 2019
In reply to MG:

> I assume in 3rd class on bench seats?


Probably, Trevor McDonut mentioned it on his current India by Rail program, he's on a train with up to  $1,687,920 for 7 nights journey.

 Coel Hellier 04 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

> Apart, of course, from a huge slice of that fare being trousered by fat cat shareholders.

Just thought I'd point out that the total dividends "trousered by fat cat shareholders" is about 2% of the train companies' total income from tickets. 

OP Greenbanks 04 Jul 2019
In reply to Coel Hellier:

That’s because 70% of them are owned by foreign companies - who probably have a more human-scale approach to what counts for reasonable profit. You seriously think that the remaining 30% of trough-feeders would operate for a 2% mark up? Get real.

5
 MG 04 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

Train fares are bizarre, and often absurdly high, but I think you are well off beam with the cause. Several operators have walked away after failing to make any profit. 

OP Greenbanks 04 Jul 2019
In reply to MG:

Profit is only that which is dispensed to shareholders after myriad layers of executive functionaries have drawn their high-five or even 6-figure salaries (way beyond the structure of the original nationalised versions. 

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 dh73 05 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

you missed the obvious solution to your problem - don't go to Leyland. It is a sh*thole

 jimtitt 05 Jul 2019
In reply to dh73:

> you missed the obvious solution to your problem - don't go to Leyland. It is a sh*thole


But he's already in Watford.......

 stevieb 05 Jul 2019
In reply to Greenbanks:

I'm no fan of the privatised railways, but maybe it just costs a lot to run a safe modern rail service, it's just in many countries this cost falls on the general taxpayer rather than the end user.  Average rail subsidy in western Europe is around 30p per passenger mile, in the UK it's about 10p. For a return trip to Leyland that makes about £80 difference.

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