Toxic family

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 subtle 27 Dec 2019

Why do I get so upset about toxic family connections - my father is not really a nice person, total racist, has been all his life (in his 70s now), always ready with a negative quip towards me, and now my family - who he hasn’t seen on over 3 years - we have always had a distant relationship but it always upsets me when I phone him, hence I restrict it to a few times a year - apparently this year he had enough stamps to post Christmas cards to my children but not enough to post one to me , and that was the one he was going to put the cheque in for my kids Christmas presents, once I challenged him on this he advised he will send it next week once he buys a stamp!

Families, got to love them, what do others with toxic families do to blank out the hurt?

1
In reply to subtle:

You aren't obliged to keep in touch; and keeping away may, ultimately, be what brings him back.

Or not. Your choice, but you do have a choice.

T.

OP subtle 27 Dec 2019
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

I have a choice, however in moments of weakness I do think that my kids would like to know their grandfather - then once contact is made I remember why there was a distance - oh the joys 

 artif 27 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

Walk away, ignore him. 

Had a similar situation with my father. Got back in contact 15years ago (give him a second chance, how bad could it be), it lasted a short while, but as an adult I realised he wasn't a nice person to be around, certainly don't want him near my son.

Confirming his unpleasantness made it easy to cut any ties, don't even know his address.

Feel much better for it

1
 bouldery bits 27 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

I use the knife. Cut off that which is incomplete and move forward.

Friends are the family you get to choose .

 Stichtplate 27 Dec 2019
In reply to bouldery bits:

> I use the knife. Cut off that which is incomplete and move forward.

> Friends are the family you get to choose .

Shared history, familial ties, loyalty, shared bonds and obligations, etc, etc. I might give a close friend a few goes at being an arsehole before cutting them loose, but family get far more chances.

I've not spoken to my sister in nearly 20 years, neither have the rest of the family so that's something else we all have in common.

 marsbar 27 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

Is he unpleasant to your children?  If so I'd definitely cut him out of your life.  If he is nicer to them than you it's a decision only you can make.  

Given his age he may or may not have many years left.  

You may find support from online groups for adult children of narcissistic parents.  

1
 bouldery bits 27 Dec 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Shared history, familial ties, loyalty, shared bonds and obligations, etc, etc. I might give a close friend a few goes at being an arsehole before cutting them loose, but family get far more chances.

> I've not spoken to my sister in nearly 20 years, neither have the rest of the family so that's something else we all have in common.

You get me wrong. I have lots of family I love to bits and who are worthwhile. I'd run through walls for them. I also have lots of family that I avoid at all costs. Life is too short. 

I don't really believe in familial obligation. Prefer to take people as they are.

Post edited at 21:11
 Stichtplate 27 Dec 2019
In reply to bouldery bits:

> You get me wrong.

You got me wrong. I was agreeing with you.

Edit:In reply to your edit. I do believe in familial obligations in as far as if people have looked out for you, even if it's just cos you're blood, you kinda owe them the same.

Post edited at 21:14
 bouldery bits 27 Dec 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

It must be UKC... 

Apologies and cheers!

In reply to subtle:

Best wishes and thoughts to all over Xmas. It is a difficult time for many people. 

 Pefa 27 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

Both my parents died 20 years ago and they weren't perfect but still they protected and took care of me whilst I grew up and afterwards to. Perhaps your Dad has good qualities that you appreciate and can be grateful for whilst kindly trying to show him how to change his more negative ones.

I'm quite a conciliatory person when it comes to families and I like to see them stick together through good and bad but I understand that sometimes it is not possible, it's just that to me you only get one mum and dad and there is no one quite like them. But perhaps that is just the way I see it as mine were lovely and I wish they were still around but sometimes you don't know what you have until it is gone. 

Post edited at 22:14
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 profitofdoom 28 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

> Why do I get so upset about toxic family connections..... what do others with toxic families do to blank out the hurt?

In my opinion, 1. blood connections, they do unfortunately matter no matter how many times we tell ourselves they don't, 2. as a technical point your family always remain your family forever, whereas we can positively ditch friends and shut the door if desired, 3. the movies, TV (and especially all Xmas movies), and society keep hammering home the message of how important family are, how we should love them forever and always live in their bosom, 4. our toxic family member/s know number 1, 2, and 3 as well as we do and tend to keep trying

Really sorry for you subtle. I feel your pain as I have it too (not my parents). "what do others with toxic families do to blank out the hurt?" That's really tough. I blank them out, avoid them, get out / get away, try my hardest to keep a sense of perspective and make the problem look and even be smaller, keep myself healthy, busy, happy as far as possible. IT'S HARD

 arch 28 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

My wife and my parents are both passed away. I have three brothers, but never see them. (I'm a bit of a loner) Things happened when my Mother died that will never be repaired, so see no need to contact them.

My problem is my wife's sister. She is going through a very rough patch with her husband, and has been for a long while now and she spends a lot of time at our house. She turned up yesterday and will be here until the New Year. I can't stand her, but the two of them are very close. I was looking forward to a two week break from work basically just chilling, now I'm probably going to return to work early just so I don't have to deal with her during the day. 

Families ehh!!

 payney1973 28 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

If this guy is as bad as you say why on earth would you want your children around him let alone get to know him.

My father is toxic to the core, luckily I have no contact with him, but he has met my little boy twice at family weddings and christening but that's it!

I at one point thought about making contact but chose not to so as to protect my son rather than deprive him of something.

Now, there is always a back story, I'm not sure of yours but mine was pretty horrific. It'll be difficult to justify to people that don't know your back story or your father because most just can't understand that a parent can be THAT bad.

Just from my personal experience, myself and my wife chose no contact to protect our son, my wife's folks are fantastic grandparents on the other hand are awesome.

 the sheep 28 Dec 2019
In reply to payney1973:

Agree whole heartedly, my father left my mother when he found out she was pregnant. He turned up again when I was 18 and didn’t disprove any of my thoughts on him. He died last year, apparently came home drunk fell over and broke his neck hitting his head on the coffee table. My kids have never met and as I went to the funeral I’m happy to say they never will.

My uncle is also a tw*t, being a wife beating drunk. He used to take me fishing as a kid but after crashing his car with me in it whilst pissed I never went with him again. Suffice to say he isn’t going to meet my kids either!

1
knillmic 28 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

can't say i'm a big fan of my family either, trying to ignore them the best i can. sometimes i wonder if there's a reason to communicate with them at all and i can't seem to find any.

J1234 28 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

Possibly your father was not shown much love as a child, and just does not know how, maybe he sees showing love or emotion as weak.

Racism, your father grew up in different times, possibly things we consider normal now will in 50 years seem abhorrent, ie flying to Kalymnos to prat about climbing.

Just love him.

11
 ian caton 28 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

Just blank the ....er, have done with it and relax. 

Probably not just racist but psociopath too, made it so much easier when I worked that out. Took me 57 years to do so mind. 

Just Xmas cards now. 

 Timmd 28 Dec 2019
In reply to J1234: i don't buy the 'different times' argument for being a racist, I know of plenty of family friends who are in their 70's who aren't racist - who see it for the nutsness it is.  

The OP has to put his own happiness and that of his family first, I guess he could engage with his father on certain terms which protect his own feelings, but it can be hard to do when there's background feelings which go back as far as childhood. 

Post edited at 18:43
 artif 28 Dec 2019
In reply to J1234:

Wow you have some rose tinted glasses.

Maybe just accept that some people are a***oles.

My uncles and grandparents were/are nice people, my father has been disowned by three of his brothers. An obnoxious, racist, wife beater there is nothing to "love".

Much easier to ignore a***oles and get on with life

 Timmd 28 Dec 2019
In reply to artif: I can't begin to guess what it's like to realise one's parent isn't a decent person. I think the people who turn out decent despite their parents deserve a lot of credit, given the model they've had while growing up. A friend has had to go through a process of realising he could be like his dad, and working out how not to be a little bit more with each relationship, he's spoken about it.

Post edited at 20:51
 the sheep 28 Dec 2019
In reply to Timmd:

It’s an easy one in some respects, i knew if I was ever to become a father I would be very different from mine. My wife has issues with her parents and it just makes us want to be the best parents we can be for our girls 

 artif 29 Dec 2019
In reply to Timmd:

I was fortunate as my mother divorced him when I was young, however she seemed to have poor taste/bad luck with men as the second husband was a control freak, I believe its called coercive behaviour nowadays, the third one was better (just) .

Its certainly tainted my views on marriage. I've been with my current partner for 25 years, not married, if you want to be together a bit of paper makes no difference

Its not all bad though, they were good lessons in how not to be a partner/parent. A good part of why I'm teetotal as well, which saved me a fortune and allowed me to do more interesting stuff. But I'm far from perfect. 

Moley 29 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

It's a very old cliche: "You can chose your friends but not your family", but it is also very true.

Because you are family doesn't mean you are similar in life, don't have to hold the same principals, thoughts, approach as others. My sister lives on a holding a mile away and people all jump to clonclusions that we are like - because we are brother and sister - but this couldn't be further from the truth. Our lives have gone in totally different directions and if she wasn't my sister we would be no more than passing acquaintences in the villge. Both parents are deceased (my father in 1963 when I was 10 and she 5) and there are a few remote cousins we never see. 

You only need to look around and see family feuds and fallings out to realise you are not alone. My advice would be if you wouldn't have him as a personal friend or want him as a friend for your kids, then let it be and distance yourself, leave it up to him to make the efforts.

 Timmd 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Moley:

> It's a very old cliche: "You can chose your friends but not your family", but it is also very true.

> You only need to look around and see family feuds and fallings out to realise you are not alone. My advice would be if you wouldn't have him as a personal friend or want him as a friend for your kids, then let it be and distance yourself, leave it up to him to make the efforts.

It's tricky when it's something like a sis in law and you get on with your brother and their children. I had a falling out today with one of mine about her not wearing her seatbelt while she was sitting behind my other brother. Things have been smoothed over with me texting an explanation which was only just an apology (I felt like I wasn't in the wrong but I've my brother to think about), and she texted a thanks for the apology, and her partner (my other brother) didn't tell me off when I rang him to explain which is always a plus. The bro who's well being I was sensitive about has schooled me in tact and diplomacy since - in asking people to do things like it's them doing you a favour, so that you're not feeling ill at ease, rather than saying why what they're doing is potentially dangerous, and selfish when they ignore you. I'm generally chilled, but it's kinda hard to be when it's your brother in the front seat and there's faster roads ahead. It'd be easier if people just weren't stupid.

Post edited at 02:13
 Stichtplate 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Timmd:

The in-law in the back gets a random H&S lecture from the in-law that called shotgun ...and subsequently gets the hump? Who'd have thought it?

6
 Tringa 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Timmd:

Perhaps you should show your sister in law this video - youtube.com/watch?v=mKHY69AFstE&

Dave

 summo 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Timmd:

Sister in law sounds like she needs to grow up. No apology required there. 

 wintertree 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> The bro who's well being I was sensitive about has schooled me in tact and diplomacy since

This doesn’t sound like a case for diplomacy and tact.  This sounds like an opportunity to give a wilfully stupid person an attitude adjustment.  

I wouldn’t have asked “like they’re doing me a favour” - subservient crap that’s unneeded if they’ve forgotten and just elevated their idiot mentality if it’s deliberate.  The way to handle this in my view that doesn’t presume the other person to be at fault is to gently remind them they’ve forgotten their seatbelt.  You can then hold off a full judgment on them until they either thank you and put it on , or do anything else.  If it’s anything else I’d have no problem telling them why it’s not their choice to make, because it affects the safety of everyone in the car.  If the driver doesn’t escalate it to an immediate ultimatum I’d be getting out and walking.  

 Stichtplate 30 Dec 2019
In reply to wintertree:

> This doesn’t sound like a case for diplomacy and tact.  This sounds like an opportunity to give a wilfully stupid person an attitude adjustment.  

Perhaps Christmas car journeys aren't the ideal time to deliver attitude adjusters to wilfully stupid in-laws? Personally speaking, my driving skills aren't much improved by a full on interfamily bun fight being conducted across the passenger compartment.

> I wouldn’t have asked “like they’re doing me a favour” - subservient crap that’s unneeded if they’ve forgotten and just elevated their idiot mentality if it’s deliberate.  The way to handle this in my view that doesn’t presume the other person to be at fault is to gently remind them they’ve forgotten their seatbelt.  You can then hold off a full judgment on them until they either thank you and put it on , or do anything else.  If it’s anything else I’d have no problem telling them why it’s not their choice to make, because it affects the safety of everyone in the car.  If the driver doesn’t escalate it to an immediate ultimatum I’d be getting out and walking.  

Spot on. Make the point, seek compliance, pull over if compliance not forthcoming.

 girlymonkey 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Timmd:

As far as I am concerned, seatbelts are something to be blunt about, not tactful. Were you driving? In any vehicle I am driving (I drive a lot of clients for work), the vehicle doesn't move until seatbelts are on and over the shoulder properly. No exceptions. I'm not rude about it, but I just sit there and remind everyone that we need seatbelts on, and just wait until they do!

I'm amazed that anyone these days can even consider getting in a car and not putting it on. It's been compulsory for so long that surely it is just an automatic part of getting into a car?! And if reminded, I am amazed that anyone would argue, surely the risks to all are well known?!

 wintertree 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Perhaps Christmas car journeys aren't the ideal time to deliver attitude adjusters to wilfully stupid in-laws

I always have an excuse ready so my sibling has to travel separately.  Life is easier that way...  

However, it may be a bad time for tackling the bad attitude, but it’s also a dangerous time on the road - more drunk driving, shortest daylight hours, roads wet and perhaps cold, people in bad tempers after sibling exposure...

 Stichtplate 30 Dec 2019
In reply to wintertree:  

> However, it may be a bad time for tackling the bad attitude, but it’s also a dangerous time on the road - more drunk driving, shortest daylight hours, roads wet and perhaps cold, people in bad tempers after sibling exposure...

I won't drive with people arguing in the car as that's increasing the likelihood of us being involved in an RTC. I also won't drive unless people are belted in. 

I suppose what I'm trying to get across is that in car arguments cause RTC's, while seatbelts simply mitigate the consequences.

 profitofdoom 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> ......what they're doing is potentially dangerous, and selfish....

Not just potentially dangerous and selfish - isn't it illegal? And am I right that the driver (not the passenger) gets done by the law if anyone in the car doesn't have a seatbelt on??

Like others have said, I personally do not drive away until everyone's belt is done up. I don't want the responsibility for injuries if we crash, and I don't want the law after me

 girlymonkey 30 Dec 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

I believe you are only held responsible for under 18s wearing seatbelts, adult passengers would get fined themselves. However, you could still suffer the consequences of someone behind squashing you etc, so still non-negotiable for me

 Blunderbuss 30 Dec 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

The driver is only responsible for children up to the age of 14......above that is the passengers responsibility. 

 Rog Wilko 30 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

Your op  has come back to me unprompted several times over the holiday period. I don't know that I have anything helpful or useful to say, and while I don't imagine expressing my feelings will help, feel I don't want to ignore. Child and grandparent relationships can be valuable to both sides but I think if your parent wants to indulge your kids while sniping at you this will only put the kids in a very difficult position with split loyalties. Hope you were able to enjoy Christmas anyway.

Deadeye 30 Dec 2019
In reply to girlymonkey:

I picked up a hitchhiker once that refused to wear a seat belt. I then had difficulty getting him to get out of the car. Pretty weird.

 profitofdoom 30 Dec 2019
In reply to girlymonkey:

> I believe you are only held responsible for under 18s 

Ok, and thanks for the info 

 profitofdoom 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Blunderbuss:

> The driver is only responsible for children up to the age of 14......above that is the passengers responsibility. 

Thanks for the correction!

 Timmd 30 Dec 2019
In reply to wintertree:

I mentioned turning the internal light on so she could see to do her belt up, and it went pear shaped from there.  The three of us had been to visit my Mum's grave earlier in the day, so I used that as my explanation for being sensitive about any danger to my bro in a 'Family are precious to me now' vibe, and her husband has conveyed as much too - I understood from his tone. There's a grain of truth of in that, and harmonious vibes for seeing my nieces and my bro are the main thing. People can't help who they fall in love with, so it's sometimes down to me to yield if a happy family network is to be had, except for things like seatbelts which are none-subjective in being important.

Post edited at 14:27
 ian caton 30 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

Number 1, look after your own mental health. Pretty much everything else comes second. 

 two_tapirs 31 Dec 2019
In reply to subtle:

Stay in touch with your father if there's a chance of benefiting from any inheritance, then make a donation with some of the money to a charity that he'd really disapprove of. Make the donation in his name. Then use the rest of the money to create something positive out of someone that gave you so much negativity. 


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