UKH

This piece is a very good summary of the Brexit shambles and how it fits with the wider attitudes and preoccupations of our government. 
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/steve-richards-on-shambolic-br...

“More or less the only place where there is aggressive self confidence is Number Ten, where the mindset is not about how best to govern but how to take on ‘elites’. Securing an effective test and trace procedure, let alone a world-beating one, is dull for them compared with bashing the civil service, the BBC or the EU.“

It's odd that BoJo and Scummings think they are not the elites but are fighting them. Have they not looked in their mirrors and seen their private education, ability to walk in to jobs where their only qualification is their school tie or daddy's mates.

I’m pretty sure they know exactly what they are and what they’re doing. It’s just a useful strategy, one that fits with their broader strategy of provoking a culture war that they can capitalise on. 

Yes, a good summary, though not including anything we didn't already know. On the issue of farmers and Brexit, the only farmers I know have been for Brexit, and apparently most of their farmer friends are too. It leaves me open-mouthed - did they ever think a Tory government could be trusted to maintain support at the levels of the CAP? The only hope for farmers I think is that Biden wins next week.

I suspect most brexit supporting farmers changed their mind when the magical oven ready deal didn't materialise.

https://www.nfuonline.com/news/featured-article/watch-how-a-no-deal-brexit-...

That presupposes support is and was rational.

Jk

I agree there was nothing new there, but what I liked about it was the way it showed how the Brexit farrago was a manifestation of a systematic  arrogance and exceptionalist attitude that is leading to similar mistakes with the pandemic.

I was frigging amazed when I met up with a farmer about 18 months ago. He was a Brexiter but we were able to have civilised discussion about it - I was pretty much putting the total EU project, including everything from environmental protection, social justice, education, free movement as incalculable benefit to us, our children and grandchildren.

I am still amazed that he said, 'well, put like that I can see what you mean. All I ever heard was that we would be better off economically.' This was not a stupid person.

The NFU as an organisation was pro remain FYI.

https://www.nfuonline.com/news/featured-article/nfu-council-agrees-resoluti...

That's the point where decades of dissing the euro has consequences.

If you consider the average dairy farm debt is £450k and many times in the last decade the milk price has been so low they make a loss just by milking their cows.... what did they have to lose? 

Unfortunately the article is well-meaning, but completely misses the point of Brexit.

If posters think that the negative consequences of populism are limited to Trumpian antics in some other country far away, think again, and please educate yourself!

As noted by jk above, populist policy making is not rational and (simplifying somewhat) involves thinking of something that will gain popular support and then saying you will do it in order to get that support. Rationality, of any kind, simply does not come into it.

In the wider context, anti-globalism involves the dismantling of elites, again without any rational basis; in my view, by far the greater enemy, although I guess I sound like Humphrey Appleby in saying so.

Taken both together, they become a true populist revolution of the like we have never seen before in the UK. It's tempting to want to make comparisons with the Glorious Revolution of 1789 in France and fantasise about Madame La Guillotine; I can think of a few who are overdue for her tender loving care.

At the moment there seems to be little resistance, political or otherwise. Even the Labour party, who are literally our only hope, are still thinking in terms of the traditional two party politics of the last century. My only hope is that the pandemic and the EU exit process goes so badly pear-shaped that they are sufficiently discredited to be pushed out of power - much like Trump in fact.

Sorry about the rant
 

I’m not sure how the article misses ‘the point’ of Brexit. I don’t think there was just one point anyway.  It wasn’t intended as an article about populism except in passing. 

The article addressed Brexit as if it were a rational strategy, and my proposal is that it's not presented by its supporters as a rational strategy. Instead they use a populist approach, which is very difficult if not impossible to criticise or address in any way with rational argument, which is exactly what the article, and many other aghast observers and posters here try to argue. Whatever the result it'll be just great because Brexit got done.

No matter how much the article author and others expostulate about how crap the negotiations are, the blessed negotiators will continue in their merry way saying it's all the EU's fault etcetc and how wonderful they are for saving good ole Britannia. Who will be able to remove them from the process, in order to achieve some better negotiated result?

Note that I'm not saying whether or not Brexit itself is a rational idea. In any case, it's too late (imho) for that discussion, which is a shame as I think it's a terrible idea, but hey ho.

Of course, the future may prove me wrong, and Frost et al may come out with a cracking deal smelling of roses. Is this something you have any hope for, at all? And whatever happens, come the next election they'll be using the same tactics, and unless the opposition can up their game sufficiently, the populists will win again.

Edit: fingers not keeping up with head...

The farm.

You f*cked up. 

Jk

You forget, Summo kindly voted for us to leave the EU, but he lives in Sweden, so he gets to stay. He's alright, Jack. 

I forget a lot but not that.

Jk

I know, it's just worth repeating. 

Who'd have thought it:  Brexit party to relaunch make itself an anti-lockdown party.  

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/11/01/exclusive-nigel-farage-rela...

About as surprising as the other thing I discovered today: Kate Bingham the head of the UK vaccine task force is married to a Tory MP.  And she knows f*ck all about vaccines, she was a venture capitalist.

Stupidity and cupidity.

I don’t think the article does consider Brexit as a rational strategy- it refers to ‘deluded posturing’ and, repeatedly, Brexit fantasies and fantasists. 

Don’t forget Dido Harding, also married to a Tory MP and with no relevant expertise. 

Now that is really interesting. It's the knife in the back, in the hand of the friend of President Trump. Et tu Brutus. The air raid sirens will be going off in Conservative head office.

The revolution is beginning.

Sorry, this seems to be a really difficult idea to get across! I'm not criticising the intent of the article, which leads on the shambolic nature of the EU exit. However Richards says the following:

'The lack of humility in the few that wield power in the UK government is striking. The shallow revolutionaries in Number Ten believe their own propaganda.'

It's not striking at all - of course they believe their own propaganda - that is how populism works! He shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the forces at work in the UK right wing.

It truly doesn't matter to the Brexit team how the negotiation ends. Whatever happens they will say it's a success and that they got it done. The rest is a matter of messaging. Details can be sorted by the Civil Service, if there's anything left of them. If there are queues of lorries, it's the EU's fault, and everything will be even better soon.

Later on, Richards calls their campaigning 'deranged and counter-productive'. It's much, much worse than that. It's successful.

The only person other than the Tory inner circle who understands these issues is Monsieur Farage, and unfortunately he's on the wrong side. Hopefully there are others that I haven't come across.

I think the EU team do understand, because they've had to deal with Le Pen, and others.

That's not fair to Cummings.  It's not his dad's mates pulling the strings it's his mate's dad.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4780837/dominic-cummings-wife-mary-wa...

They've carefully chosen the term. Us plebs should really be getting outraged about 'the very priviliged' (ie. people who get a massive head start in life), but Bojo doesn't want us doing that because he is undeniably one of them. So instead he pits us against the 'liberal elite' (ie. open-minded, successful people), because then he gets to side with the people (ie. mundane, average, half-arsed, slightly prejudiced, muddle-through types). Seems to be a successful strategy. Lots of people identify with Boris!

Lionel Barber, former editor of the FT, is publishing his diaries, and in a review of his diaries, he recounts a visit to the FT by Cummings:

"[Barber] really begins to see its consequences when, during the Brexit referendum of 2016, Vote Leave’s mastermind, Dominic Cummings, visits the FT for lunch. Asked about the scale of the economic shock that would follow Brexit, “Cummings says he has no idea what damage such a shock might do. The figure is unknowable and the ordinary person in the street would have little understanding anyway.” As he realises what he has said, Cummings adds: “This conversation is off the record, right?”"

Oh I don't know, I'm sure they know which side their bread is buttered and when to keep quiet.

jk

I've used the word before and I use it again, treason.  Cummings isn't even worth a bullet

Anyone looking forward to Juicy January of Brexit chaos following Covid Christmas?  Assuming we have no other unforseeble harm like floods, winter weather, bad flu year, economic crashes, cyber attacks etc.

Brexit seems all about reducing UK resilience

watch your spelling!

This is the nub right here, there's a lot of working class people with a chip on their shoulder about the middle class (you see it on here) because they see them as having got "rich" without working hard, i.e. they work cushy academic or office jobs. They don't see that a large middle class means a lot of actual social mobility, and the real wealthy elites (capitalists and landed gentry) exploit this. For some reason they don't have a chip on their shoulder about these people, probably because they see middle class people every day.

There are also lots of middle class people who also vote for Tories. These are often the types who think they got "rich" (again in quotes because it's not real wealth) by their own hard work so  shouldn't have to pay taxes, forgetting that they grew up and spent many working years in a country with a lot of social programs, free education, a much smaller wealth gap, and most importantly affordable housing. These people didn't all vote for Brexit but would never vote for labor even before Corbyn. So they also voted for these populists and by extension a no deal Brexit.

I struggle to find these days many middle class people who vote for the Tories. They are last centurys party for the middle class and do not generally reflect their values.

You are a bit out of date and way behind the times.

Well I find the opposite, a lot of the middle class people I know vote for the Tories so for you to say I am out of date and behind the times based on the empirical evidence of people that you know is just wrong. Also plenty of older middle class people are from the last century. When you say they don't reflect 'their" values who are you talking about?

I think you’ve fallen for the liberal elite view of middle class, I’ve met plenty of middle manager/ self owner/ self employed  Tory voters, , there are still plenty of people who want to hang onto what they precariously have, wether that be a job a house a nice car and the tories have always been good at convincing those people that They represent them. That’s why the right to buy was so successful for the tories.

Well lets put a different spin on it. The Tories won last time becuase of working class votes whichever way you look at it.

Anybody who does not understand the shifts in political allegiances these days needs to wake up.

Its old fashioned to say that the Tories are middle class voters.

Things like environmental issues and support for the EU.

I didn't say that the entire first paragraph of my post was that they have got a lot of the working classes to vote for them.

There are plenty of middle class people who voted for them too. 

And you're completely missing my point which was that the elites have used populism to turn all the "lower classes" (meaning working and middle) against each other, even though having lots of middle class people is a good thing as it means social mobility, middle classes come from the working classes not the upper classes. And then these people all vote Tory because screw the Liberal Elites/Benefit Scroungers take your pick.

On a side note I hate all these class terms I am only using them as people know what you're talking about.