Teaching Assistants - please explain why they exist?

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 subtle 08 Nov 2022

Hoping someone can explain the apparent need for Teaching Assistants?

Why is a school teacher no longer able to deal with their class and suddenly (in the last few years) needs an assistant to help?

I'm sure many many people in other industries would love an assistant to help out, especially when their daily work rate/scope has not changed.

I'm genuinely curious as to why Teaching Assistants are required now.

157
 Jamie Wakeham 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

Why do you think they've only appeared in the last few years?

 tew 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

From my experience when I was in school (not quite 20 years ago) teaching assistants helped with the kids who needed extra help. The special needs students who without that extra help would either be ignored or take up a disproportionate amount of the teachers time.

OP subtle 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Why do you think they've only appeared in the last few years?

I genuinely have no idea, hence the question as to why they are now needed?

What has changed that Teachers are no longer able to carry out their duties alone and need an assistant? Especially when class sizes are being reduced?

97
 Lhod 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

I'm not a teacher though my wife is, and several close family and friends.

In my experience they are rare in secondary (my wife has never had one) but more common in primary, particularly where there are children with additional needs. Often these children will essentially have a TA allocated solely to them, so that their additional needs can be supported and the teacher is able to teach the rest of the class.

In terms of this not being the case historically - I would presume that lots of children with learning difficulties didn't receive the extra support they needed and were left behind.

Not exactly something to aspire to. 

 Tyler 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> I'm genuinely curious as to why Teaching Assistants are required now.

To save money, obviously. Instead of having multiple small classes plus separate classes for statemented children they can bung them all into fewer mixed classes and supplement them with TA.

If you are looking for occupations whose jobs are getting easier I wouldn’t be looking at teachers.

 profitofdoom 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Hoping someone can explain the apparent need for Teaching Assistants?

Teacher here 

Classes vary enormously in motivation, behaviour, ability. And size. With many classes especially with 30+ students one teacher cannot give any help to individual students. Yet they often need it. As you help one individual the rest of the class will be on their own. Which can descend into trouble. Then assistants are invaluable. 

 jimtitt 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Why do you think they've only appeared in the last few years?

We had teaching assistants in the 1950's.

 Harry Jarvis 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

Two of my nieces are TAs. The often work one-to-one with children with special educational needs, or in very small groups of struggling children, who would otherwise be left behind as the teacher concentrates their efforts on the majority of the class. TAs allow weaker children to receive better more targetted attention and reduces the amount of time that teachers are taken away from the  rest of the class. 

 toad 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

Related question. Why do TAs not get paid in the holidays, but teachers do? 

 MG 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Why is a school teacher no longer able to deal with their class and suddenly (in the last few years) needs an assistant to help?

They are nothing new.  We had them at school in the 80s/90s

> I'm sure many many people in other industries would love an assistant to help out, especially when their daily work rate/scope has not changed.

Which is why many have them - PSOs, dental nurses, para-legals, draughtsmen to name a few.

> I'm genuinely curious as to why Teaching Assistants are required now.

Same reasons as they always have, I imagine.

In reply to subtle:

The "apparent need" for a TA - why use those particular words?

I started teaching in 1994 and left in 2006. TAs were commonplace in the classroom throughout my time in education so a chunk of your question is based on a false statement.

My questions to you - have you ever taught and what is your direct experience of TAs? How do you know daily work rate/scope in teaching hasn't increased and what is a "work rate" in teaching anyway?

It's a hugely stressful and demanding job with little time off despite the holidays. In which comparable jobs in other industries do you think people would appreciate an assistant?

 abr1966 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

As others have  pointed out it's to provide greater access to education for children who would otherwise struggle to access the curriculum.

It might be for kids with disability, ASD, kids with sensory issues or those described in behavioural terms. If they have PEP's or have an EHCP there will be a statutory requirement for this provision.

 graeme jackson 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Why do you think they've only appeared in the last few years?

> I genuinely have no idea, hence the question as to why they are now needed?

I suspect Jamie meant to ask 'what makes you think they've only appeared in the last few years'.

I know for a fact that teaching assistants have been around since at least 1987 when my wife started work as one. 

 LastBoyScout 08 Nov 2022
In reply to toad:

> Related question. Why do TAs not get paid in the holidays, but teachers do? 

They're usually funded by SEND/Pupil Premium/etc grants, not as a salaried role - they also don't do a lot of the extra-curricular work that teachers do.

OP subtle 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Tyler:

> To save money, obviously. Instead of having multiple small classes plus separate classes for statemented children they can bung them all into fewer mixed classes and supplement them with TA.

Are they saving money though - especially if they are dedicated to one pupil only, as Lhod suggested - that's potentially more than one TA to each class - a lot of additional salary there!

If they are to deal with pupils with special needs then maybe time to look at why these pupils are in mainstream class, causing disruption to other learning etc - perhaps have a dedicated classroom for all pupils who need additional support and then have 2 TA to deal with that class - an overall reduction in TA's across the school?

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OP subtle 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Frank the Husky:

> It's a hugely stressful and demanding job with little time off despite the holidays. 

Tell me a job nowadays that isn't stressfull or demanding? Or one with lots of time off?

64
Removed User 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

Why are special needs kids necessarily causing disruption?

Why not have special kids segregated into a completely separate school entirely? Can you see any benefit of trying to have some integration of special needs kids into the mainstream for the benefit of the kids and society more generally. It would of course be more efficient to let them rot in some sort of asylum.

Are you are aware that 'special needs' (probably not the PC term) covers a wide spectrum of behaviours and abilities?

Do you have special needs - you may be of an age where they went undiagnosed?

Post edited at 14:33
In reply to subtle:

What’s triggered this fit of frustration at teachers?

1
OP subtle 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Stuart Williams:

> What’s triggered this fit of frustration at teachers?

Not a frustration at teachers, more a response to this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-63518326

9
 Andy Clarke 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle

> If they are to deal with pupils with special needs then maybe time to look at why these pupils are in mainstream class, causing disruption to other learning etc - perhaps have a dedicated classroom for all pupils who need additional support and then have 2 TA to deal with that class - an overall reduction in TA's across the school?

This is what still often happened when I started teaching in the 70s: all the kids who had learning difficulties would be stuck in a "remedial" class. It wouldn't be uncommon for such classes to be housed in a portakabin classroom somewhere out of sight. The damage done to the students' self-esteem, motivation and progress was incalculable. Including such students in mainstream classes improved their achievement dramatically, with relatively little impact on other students' learning if done effectively. A key strategy for making it effective was the use of Teaching Assistants. I write as an ex  comprehensive head who was an evangelist for the effectiveness of mixed-ability teaching skilfully done. It's clear that the forthcoming austerity cuts to education will result in a widespread loss of TAs which will have a significant impact on the most vulnerable kids. I really find it hard to be civil to the people I know who voted for those inflicting this on education.

1
 Harry Jarvis 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Not a frustration at teachers, more a response to this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-63518326

Making TAs redundant will result in poorer outcomes for the children who need the most help and who benefit most from the extra support they receive from TAs. 

 abr1966 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> If they are to deal with pupils with special needs then maybe time to look at why these pupils are in mainstream class, causing disruption to other learning etc

Full of ignorant assumptions....

- perhaps have a dedicated classroom for all pupils who need additional support and then have 2 TA to deal with that class - an overall reduction in TA's across the school?

Really? Do you actually think this is a feasible solution? 

Serious question.....have you spent time in schools or with any children who have additional needs?

 leland stamper 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

I run a campsite. I've just started my yearly 5 months holiday.It's not stressful or demanding. Yes, I used to be a teacher.

1
 dread-i 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Are they saving money though - especially if they are dedicated to one pupil only, as Lhod suggested - that's potentially more than one TA to each class - a lot of additional salary there!

> If they are to deal with pupils with special needs then maybe time to look at why these pupils are in mainstream class, causing disruption to other learning etc - perhaps have a dedicated classroom for all pupils who need additional support and then have 2 TA to deal with that class - an overall reduction in TA's across the school?

Your post comes across as crass or 'I'm all right, so lets cut costs as it doesn't affect me or mine." Perhaps thats not your intention.

My wife is a TA and works with special needs students. If you think it would be easier or cheaper to just bung kids in a special school, then you are wrong. A special school has pupils with lots of differing needs. Getting a child into one is hard, it requires input from various agencies and / or medical folks. The staffing ratio is very high and the costs are higher than mainstream.

A lot of the time kids are in mainstream schools, and only then it becomes apparent they need additional help. In some cases they can fit right into school life with a little support. With others, it may be the case that they transition to a special school later. Not all kids with additional needs are disruptive.

TA's, even if dedicated to one child, can also help with the other kids. And then there is the safety aspect. Sometime children can have meltdowns, not just special kids. So the TA can calm or remove the child and the teacher can support the others.

If you think being a TA in a special school is an easy job, you're wrong. My wife often came home covered in bruises and there was a high staff absence rate due to injury.

Perhaps a better question might be: How can we improve the education system so there are better outcomes for all kids?

 wintertree 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

Just one example.

> What has changed that Teachers are no longer able to carry out their duties alone and need an assistant? 

When I was at school there was just the class teacher and kids like myself with significant barriers to learning (SENs) were left behind to struggle.

At Jr's school, some of the teaching assistants move around between classes to provide targeted support to the SEN children at the times it makes the most difference, as well as doing some 1:1 work at desks in quieter corridors (that being the only space they have for additional support).

> Especially when class sizes are being reduced?

Are you posting from some parallel universe where the real world resources for schools have been going up, not down?

2
 mondite 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> perhaps have a dedicated classroom for all pupils who need additional support and then have 2 TA to deal with that class - an overall reduction in TA's across the school?

So the teacher would have to teach all years and all subjects with only the assistance of 2TAs for a bunch of kids who may well have needed one TA each?

Cant see any flaws with that idea.

 Phil1919 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

Teaching assistants mens there can be a feeling of teamwork in the class which can have many benefits.

 Wil Treasure 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

Teaching assistants might be in a classroom for a variety of reasons. Often it is because a pupil has a "statement", which entitled them to a number of hours of additional support in class. A statement could be given for lots of reasons, ADHD and autism are common ones, but other conditions which affect learning might also qualify, e.g. hearing or sight problems, dyspraxia and dyslexia.

Most TAs are not specific to one pupil, but some are if they have very high or specialist needs. Some TAs are subject specialists, or will have resources and knowledge to help the pupil that teachers might not. Those who work 1-to-1 with the same pupil consistently will have a much better understanding of their needs. If that pupil also has sensory needs, problems with sensory overload, social interaction or mood regulation, that TA can be a vital mentor for them as well as freeing the teacher to teach.

Some schools only use the bare minimum of TAs, where pupils have a legal right to them. Getting a statement for a pupil is not an easy process and parents often need to fight their corner for it, so they aren't always available even when they should be. Some schools have many more TAs. I've been lucky to work with some brilliant examples who have made a real difference to pupils' education, as well as their future lives.

I think people get confused and assume a TA is like a personal assistant for a teacher, to reduce workload, when it's usually much more about getting the finite amount of time in the classroom if you have pupils who need a bit more 1-to-1 to access the work. If anything, working well with a TA can actually increase certain parts of your workload!

 Will Hunt 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Andy Clarke:

That's all very well, Andy, but have you considered that Subtle, who (by his own admission) knows fu@k all about teaching, doesn't think that we need Teaching Assistants?

Post edited at 15:00
 ExiledScot 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Will Hunt:

> That's all very well, Andy, but have you considered that Subtle, who (by his own admission) knows fu@k all about teaching, doesn't think that we need Teaching Assistants?

That would depend if your vision of a class is 15-20 well-behaved attentive little darlings, all of the roughly the same age and academic ability. This class likely primarily exists only in fee paying schools. 

 Tyler 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Are they saving money though -

Fair enough, you’re right it’s nothing to do with costs but this govt felt like they wanted to make teachers jobs even more cushy. The TAs aren’t there to take excessive workloads from classrooms but to give the teachers an opportunity to have a fag break and make sure they knock off at 3 o’clock. 
Now the bloody nurses are kicking off because they want to be paid a living wage for doing what, after all, is a bit of a hobby. 

Post edited at 15:24
 Alkis 08 Nov 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> When I was at school there was just the class teacher and kids like myself with significant barriers to learning (SENs) were left behind to struggle.

Same for me in Greece. As a kid, I had obviously not yet learnt how to navigate around my dyslexia and ADHD and my schooling involved my parents and paid tutors helping me focus for the whole 12 years. It also meant that I basically had no free time for my entire childhood as most of my education happened after school.

A kid with similar needs but without parents able and willing to help would have been seriously disadvantaged.

A school system that can actually cope with this *in* the classroom is inspiring, if it has already been achieved then damaging it would be regrettable to say the least.

Post edited at 15:53
OP subtle 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Tyler:

> Fair enough, you’re right it’s nothing to do with costs but this govt felt like they wanted to make teachers jobs even more cushy. The TAs aren’t there to take excessive workloads from classrooms but to give the teachers an opportunity to have a fag break and make sure they knock off at 3 o’clock. 

> Now the bloody nurses are kicking off because they want to be paid a living wage for doing what, after all, is a bit of a hobby. 

Are you suggesting that nurses are the medical equivalent of Teaching Assistants? Surely not, you have to train and become qualified as a Nurse.

Interesting reading that TA's are mainly required at Primary School - what happens when the kids move to Secondary school then that means TA's not required?

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 kathrync 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

I remember having TAs when I was in primary school in the mid-late 80s. Mrs Mee and Mrs Brooks.

They had a number of functions. Sometimes they spent 1:1 time with children who were struggling. Sometimes they would take a group who were slightly behind or slightly ahead for a modified activity. Sometimes they facilitated activities that wouldn't have been possible otherwise - for example I remember a class where we played shop (learning about money and change and estimating). Having two TAs enabled the teacher to set up two "shops" in the classroom instead of just one and still have a spare pair of hands to keep order and help children who were particularly struggling.

 Meddins 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

Interested when did you attend school?

 Wil Treasure 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Interesting reading that TA's are mainly required at Primary School - what happens when the kids move to Secondary school then that means TA's not required?

Primary schools have a higher pupil-to-teacher ratio than secondaries. Some of the pupils may move into specialist settings for secondary school, either special schools or mainstream schools that e.g. have a visual support department, so resources can be pooled. Pupils receive varying levels of support, and that can also vary by subject. They are more likely to receive support in core subjects like English and Maths. Also, secondary pupils are older, they have learned to manage some of the barriers themselves, will be more able to follow instructions and self-motivate.

In reply to subtle:

> Hoping someone can explain the apparent need for Teaching Assistants?

TAs help students access the curriculum.  For some students with particular needs learning cannot take place without a TA.  TAs prepare work for blind/deaf/other disability students.  TAs help staff trips that require extra adults that are cheaper than teachers.  TAs can build relationships with pupils that need them because they don't just teach them one lesson they can be there all the time.  Having an extra adult in the room also makes a big difference to students who don't require specific help.  It lowers the ratio from 1:32 down to 1:16. Everyone's learning is improved with the addition of a good TA.  Students wait half the time they would have when they need help, if you need to focus on behaviour then someone else can still be focussing on learning, if there is a pastoral issue the TA can deal with it while you concentrate on keeping everyone else learning.  When someone spills their drink everywhere/unexpectedly starts their period/gets upset/can't grasp a concept, then there is someone else to help so you can keep teaching the majority of the class.  The need isn't 'apparent' its real.

> Why is a school teacher no longer able to deal with their class and suddenly (in the last few years) needs an assistant to help?

This is not true, TAs have been in use for decades. They are more needed now than ever because the demands and expectations placed on those who work in education have changed.  All good teachers will be able to deal with their class, but a teacher with TA support will be able to achieve more than without.

> I'm sure many many people in other industries would love an assistant to help out, especially when their daily work rate/scope has not changed.

Probably, I don't work in other industries so I can't comment.

> I'm genuinely curious as to why Teaching Assistants are required now.

They have always been required, now more so than ever.

Post edited at 16:12
 wercat 08 Nov 2022
In reply to MG:

What on earth is a paralegal?

Is it a legal clerk? (later referred to as a legal executive)

3
 MeMeMe 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> I'm sure many many people in other industries would love an assistant to help out, especially when their daily work rate/scope has not changed.

Errr, lots of industries do have assistants to help out. Builder's labourer, secretary, uh personal assistant, etc, etc, etc. It's often more efficient to have more than one person working on the same goal because they can have different specialities and responsibilities.

I'm not a teacher but I suspect the amount of work they have has increased over the years and, as lots of people have pointed out, Teaching Assistants aren't a new thing.

[Edit to say I regret using the words 'help out', like it's not a proper job!]

Post edited at 16:20
OP subtle 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Wil Treasure:

> Primary schools have a higher pupil-to-teacher ratio than secondaries. Some of the pupils may move into specialist settings for secondary school, either special schools or mainstream schools that e.g. have a visual support department, so resources can be pooled. Pupils receive varying levels of support, and that can also vary by subject. They are more likely to receive support in core subjects like English and Maths. Also, secondary pupils are older, they have learned to manage some of the barriers themselves, will be more able to follow instructions and self-motivate.

Thanks Will, this, and your earlier response are very informative.

 Andy Clarke 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Interesting reading that TA's are mainly required at Primary School - what happens when the kids move to Secondary school then that means TA's not required?

My post was based on my career in secondary comprehensive education. We ran a large team of TAs. The students we integrated into mainstream classes had additional needs across a very wide range including ADHD, ASD, Dyslexia, OCD and Tourettes, plus kids with physical challenges, eg wheelchair users. This would have been impossible without the TAs. While I accept that there are a range of views about how much integration is desirable, I believed idealistically that everyone who wanted to attend their local school should be enabled to do so. In conclusion, if you believe in inclusive community education TAs are just as necessary in secondary schools.

 RobAJones 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Andy Clarke:

> I believed idealistically that everyone who wanted to attend their local school should be enabled to do so. In conclusion, if you believe in inclusive community education TAs are just as necessary in secondary schools.

I agree with that, but am concerned that secondary education with exams league tables etc. seem to have more attention. Over the last decade the pupil teacher ratio only increased slightly in secondary schools (15 to 16) but went up significantly in nursery schools (17 to 23). All teachers and TA's make a difference, but that difference is more pronounced with younger students. 

 Philip 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> I'm genuinely curious as to why Teaching Assistants are required now.

Ha. I guess your school didn't have them :-P 

 spenser 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

So you isolate the special needs kids off in a little classroom away from the rest of their peers? Sounds like an excellent approach to addressing the high rates of mental illness in people with additional needs/ disabilities (yes I am one), about as effective as tieing the rope to your scrotum for an onsight attempt at Strawberries or some such.

I occasionally had assistance from a TA in primary and would have definitely benefited from one at some points in high school despite smaller class sizes looking back, but that was a long time ago now so not very relevant.

 Rupert Woods 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

The irony is that getting rid of a few TAs won’t actually save much money - they earn around 10-12k a year. Perhaps sights should be set on the proliferation of middle managers and CEOs of multi school/academy trusts which have in effect developed into mini LEAs.

TAs are primarily there to support children with a huge variety of special needs who otherwise might not be able to access mainstream education. This doesn’t just benefit these children, it also helps teach everyone else in a class how “different” is “normal”.

 seankenny 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> I'm sure many many people in other industries would love an assistant to help out, especially when their daily work rate/scope has not changed.

My partner works at a very successful professional services firm in the City, where amongst other things she runs a team of support staff. It would be impossible for their department to function without this support, even though the tasks are well within the ability of other employees. So no, it’s not that “they would love an assistant to help out”, rather that the assistants are a vital part of the firm’s structure, without which it would cease to work effectively. I think it’s fair to assume that TA’s likewise make schools effective. 

 bouldery bits 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> I genuinely have no idea, hence the question as to why they are now needed?

> What has changed that Teachers are no longer able to carry out their duties alone and need an assistant? Especially when class sizes are being reduced?

Volunteer at your local primary. Do a bit of listening to readers.

Get back to me,

BB

 peppermill 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Hoping someone can explain the apparent need for Teaching Assistants?

> Why is a school teacher no longer able to deal with their class and suddenly (in the last few years) needs an assistant to help?

> I'm sure many many people in other industries would love an assistant to help out, especially when their daily work rate/scope has not changed.

> I'm genuinely curious as to why Teaching Assistants are required now.

To add to other posters, they're really nothing new. As in been around for decades nothing new.

Mum was a teaching assistant when I was in primary school in the mid to late 1990s and they well established then!

This wasn't just for kids with additional needs- in a class of 28-30 hyperactive disease-bags there's no way even the best of teachers could give all the kids the help needed in a normal lesson, especially in the younger years. 

Post edited at 17:13
 Neil Williams 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

I don't fancy the idea of trying to control 30 kids on my own.  I find in Scouting that 24 with 2 adults is hard enough - a third makes a huge difference.  So I'm well in support of teaching assistants.

 Andy Clarke 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Rupert Woods:

> The irony is that getting rid of a few TAs won’t actually save much money - they earn around 10-12k a year. Perhaps sights should be set on the proliferation of middle managers and CEOs of multi school/academy trusts which have in effect developed into mini LEAs.

Thery have indeed. Unfortunately, the CEOs of these very much mini LEAs often get paid similarly to the Directors of the old-style much larger real LEAs. My successor as Head is now CEO of a trust of 5 secondaries and 13 primaries and gets paid a similar salary to the guy who in my day was responsible for the whole county's 60 or so secondaries and around 190 primaries. The shambolic proliferation of academies is proving hugely inefficient and cost-ineffective compared to the old system and there's no meaningful evidence whatsoever that it's raised attainment any more quickly. There couldn't be a better demonstration of what happens when zealots are allowed to crowbar market-based ideology into somewhere it doesn't belong.

Post edited at 17:46
In reply to subtle:

> Tell me a job nowadays that isn't stressfull or demanding? Or one with lots of time off?

Instead of answering, you've come out with these silly questions. If you insist...

I can think of dozens of jobs that which don't come anywhere near the challenges of being a teacher. Every other job I've ever had has been easier - factory work, cafe work, the ambulance service, the Royal Navy, the BMC, sales, dry stone walling. Others I haven't done but which friends do are equally low stress - construction, office work, civil service, shop work, manufacturing, tree surgery, web designing, advertising, photography, printing, plastering, electricians...the list goes on (and on). Many of them have assistants, by the way.

I note from a later post that you're upset that schools are running out of money, so you're using TAs as scapegoats. What comes across is your lack of understanding of modern teaching, its stresses and strains, the enormous demands made of teachers and the general education environment.

 Maggot 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Tell me a job nowadays that isn't stressfull or demanding? Or one with lots of time off?

Maybe you should try signing on the dole and avoid being sanctioned and surviving on your giro if you think working is too stressful!!!

Plenty of time off though.

1
 Dax H 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Andy Clarke:

> This is what still often happened when I started teaching in the 70s: all the kids who had learning difficulties would be stuck in a "remedial" class. It wouldn't be uncommon for such classes to be housed in a portakabin classroom somewhere out of sight. The damage done to the students' self-esteem, motivation and progress was incalculable. Including such students in mainstream classes improved their achievement dramatically, with relatively little impact on other students' learning if done effectively.

This was our school in the early 80s, a couple of portacabins dumped round the back for the remedial classes, they were constantly bullied by the rest of the school and referred to as the window lickers or paste eaters.

Turns out I was only a fraction ahead of them with my grades and when I found that out I tried harder so I didn't end up there, I still left school without a single qualification but the potential shame kept me just above their line. I'm sure they would have done better if they were intigrated in to the rest of the school rather than being swept under the rug. 

 Andy Clarke 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Dax H:

> This was our school in the early 80s, a couple of portacabins dumped round the back for the remedial classes, they were constantly bullied by the rest of the school and referred to as the window lickers or paste eaters.

> Turns out I was only a fraction ahead of them with my grades and when I found that out I tried harder so I didn't end up there, I still left school without a single qualification but the potential shame kept me just above their line. I'm sure they would have done better if they were intigrated in to the rest of the school rather than being swept under the rug. 

Sadly this wasn't untypical. I knew some inspirational teachers who worked with such classes, but the system as a whole let them down. The progressive integration of kids with additional needs into the mainstream was one of the most welcome changes during my career in education. But English education still has a significant problem with its "long tail" of under-achievement. The looming cuts and the likely sweeping reductions of in-class support will dramatically exacerbate it.

Post edited at 18:50
 Siward 08 Nov 2022
In reply to wercat:

Do keep up.

Yes, someone who might in years gone by have been called a clerk, or a caseworker, or a legal executive who deals with all manner of legal work but isn't a qualified solicitor /barrister.

Probably American in origin. Not to be confused with paratrooper.

I suppose paramedic vs a doctor is a comparison. 

Post edited at 18:53
1
 RobAJones 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Dax H:

>  I'm sure they would have done better if they were intigrated in to the rest of the school rather than being swept under the rug. 

And not just in terms of exam results. If we can't integrate them into schools as childden, how can we expect them to integrate into the wider society when they leave. 

 RX-78 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

Well lots of sensible answers here. I assumed this was an attempt at muck stirring. Ps. I am not a teacher, i manage some people in private industry, overall i have a good work / life.

 Jenny C 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

I was at school on the 90s and we had a teaching assistant to support two deaf pupils in our class through secondary school. This allowed them to integrate into mainstream education, but I also believe that we all benefitted from being taught in a disability inclusive environment.

Yes special schools have their place, but for those who have a reasonable expectation to live and work independently in adult life, integrating into mainstream school helps to create acceptance, understanding and tolerance.

​​​​​

 MG 08 Nov 2022
In reply to wercat:

> What on earth is a paralegal?

> Is it a legal clerk? (later referred to as a legal executive)

https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/paralegal

cf paramedic 

1
 RobAJones 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Are you suggesting that nurses are the medical equivalent of Teaching Assistants? Surely not, you have to train and become qualified as a Nurse.

OK to become a Level 1 teaching assistant nowadays you probably just need a CRB check, but at level 3 they can take whole classes on their own, the Open University offer a course for those wanting to be level 4. Above this there is level 5 and most HLTA's (Higher Level Teaching Assistants) are effectively used as unqualified teachers for at least part of the week. I don't know enough to make the camparison with nurses, but to suggest TA's don't train and aren't qualified is wrong. 

 MG 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

What's your job?

Post edited at 19:56
 VPJB 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

In the 80s/90s I had a friend who was dyslexic, he went to a school for those with learning difficulties.

Since then a lot of these schools have closed as they wanted all pupils (except those with very severe learning needs) to go to mainstream schools due to inclusively. The range of abilities in a class can be massive from those who will read and write loads to those that can barely write their name.

I teach maths, I have a class of 30 high achieving pupils and they are easy to manage. I also have a class of 10 low ability pupils of which I see about 5 of them regularly, managing these can be a struggle without a TA. Often while helping one pupil another gets stuck and will be disruptive until they recieve help. Some of these would have been in alternative schooling.

What hasn't been mentioned is parenting. A lot of behavioural abilities stem from home life, if a child has not been encouraged to read then how can they do their school work?

Some parents are more pushy than others to get their child a statement and therefore in class support (TA).

 spenser 08 Nov 2022
In reply to VPJB:

Which is a fundamental failure of the system, parents shouldn't need to fight the system to get adequate support for their child.

 VPJB 08 Nov 2022
In reply to spenser:

I agree, parents should have to fight for support. At the same time there are a number who are unaware of their child's lack of ability and what help is available. There are a number of parents that just aren't bothered so long as their child has somewhere to go.

 Chris Murray 08 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

What makes you think class sizes are being reduced?

I've been a teacher for 30 years and class sizes are generally larger than when I started.

 Andy Clarke 08 Nov 2022
In reply to MG:

> What's your job?

I reckon he's an Ofsted inspector.

 TobyA 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Andy Clarke:

> I reckon he's an Ofsted inspector.

Lolz

(Recently ofsteded, so that's a slightly bitter lol)

 wintertree 08 Nov 2022
In reply to VPJB:

> Some parents are more pushy than others to get their child a statement and therefore in class support (TA).

To interject - from my view it’s not now a case that pushy parents get more, but that without well informed and pushy parents it’s increasingly hard to get the assessment that is needed to unlock any support for SENs.  There is literally a book published guiding parents through the process [1].  I’ve met several parents whose kids were so miserable and stuck in school without any support that it was severely impacting their mental health and that of their parents, to the point a parent has quit work to home school as a last resort.  There’s a largely silent shift going on from UK home schooling being led by strictly religious parents/carers to those who discover it as their last resort with SENs.

The gist seems to be that local authorities aren’t rushing to perform the assessments, because once an assessment is made the LA is legally obliged to draw up a plan to accommodate it and to resource that plan, and they are resource stripped.

To be effective, both pushing for an assessment and the fallback of homeschooling need a family that is well resourced, totally invested in the child’s education and that can afford the investment of time and emotion required.  So, SENs become a great divide in terms of the future prospects of children.  Our society is full of defective systems that amplify inequality.

Of the parents I know doing this, I can’t say I think it’s a good option for any of them, but in every case it’s clear to me that it’s far preferable to the alternative of the child remaining in a school that isn’t able to support them.  

There simply isn’t enough resource flowing in to the education system.  The amount spent per pupil is so low I’m amazed it holds together as well as it does; failing to resource education is the start of a national death spiral as it goes on to undermine future productivity and physical and mental health, further limiting the funds available vs comparator nations.  Blair was so right when he said “education, education, education” but the follow through was never there.

[1] - https://gatehouselaw.co.uk/special-needs-and-legal-entitlement-the-essentia...

 wintertree 08 Nov 2022
In reply to Alkis:

> A kid with similar needs but without parents able and willing to help would have been seriously disadvantaged.

Last year I finally got round to going through Wintertree Sr’s stuff.  Working through his school books I could see the whole sorry story laid out over dyslexia (probably more dysgraphia with an up to date understanding) and lack of support.  Back then it was a case of whacking their knuckles with a ruler for sub-par work.  He left school with one O-Level.  It took him 15 years to claw his way up from being utterly failed at school to reach his potential; the world has changed so much in the intervening half-century that I doubt he’d have managed that now.  But - other than the corporal punishment - some children are still leaving schools similarly failed.

19 years of teaching in a university STEM department really drove home how variable the school aged support for SENs remains, and how a lack of understanding and utterly wrong view of them all in blanket terms as disabilities undermines self confidence, finding personal coping strategies and embracing the up sides where they exist.
 

 Darron 09 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

If I might add my real world example.

D&T Product Design teacher. GCSE group. Within group are a range of predicted grades including A*. Also in the group are two students with severe autism - to the point that I had difficulty even understanding what they were saying. They have to design and make a prototype product for coursework (60% of their GCSE grade). Routinely I explain, both in class group and individually, what there next steps might be. The A* kids set off at pace. Others need a little more support. The SEN kids have little idea. Fortunately they have a teaching assistant! She (in this case) has time to explain in terms they understand what is required of them. Once they understand off they go. Much of the design is CAD/ CAM based so that helps - in fact they have one over the TA in that respect🙂. Every student now understands what is required/ they are doing. Progress is made! 

In this case every student achieved their target grade - except the two autistic students. They exceeded expectations and gained a D&T Product Design GCSE. I know what it meant to me but think what it mean to them. This would not have been possible without the TA.

TA’s are quite possibly the best value for money in the entire system.

1
 spenser 09 Nov 2022
In reply to VPJB:

Yep, I am one of them. Sensory issues and social impairment which no one picked up on at school (I go quiet and withdrawn, not outwardly expressive) which have eventually resulted in me leaving 2 of my 3 previous roles at work (new place are accommodating my needs really well so I plan on staying indefinitely), however they did pick up on my handwriting to get me diagnosed with dyspraxia as that was inconvenient for teachers marking my work.

 VPJB 09 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

My previous comment was meant to say 'shouldn't' and not 'should'.

 DaveHK 09 Nov 2022
In reply to Chris Murray:

> What makes you think class sizes are being reduced?

Ignorance. 

 Andrew Wells 09 Nov 2022
In reply to MG:

I'm guessing the Secretary of State for Education 

 RobAJones 09 Nov 2022
In reply to TobyA:

> (Recently ofsteded, so that's a slightly bitter lol)

Now there is an opportunity for cut backs, that would actually benefit many students 

 RobAJones 09 Nov 2022
In reply to Andrew Wells:

> I'm guessing the Secretary of State for Education  

Williamson seems to be a nasty piece of work, but wasn't his wife a TA?

I'm prepared to give Keegan the benefit of the doubt for now and very relieved Badenoch wasn't appointed as she is on record as very similar views to the OP. 

 CantClimbTom 09 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

"..I'm genuinely curious as to why Teaching Assistants are required now..."

I'm just shy of age 50 and I remember in my first and second year of primary (aged 4 and 5) that there was a teaching assistant, so I don't think this is a new thing

In reply to subtle:

A. I've been a teacher for over 20 years and they have existed for all that time, with the same prevalence.

B. We didn't really have them at the schools I attended 40+ years ago and loads of children were severely let down by the education system (in my experience)

C. We (teachers/schools/parents/the govt/Ofsted) want all children to make good progress in school. Teaching assistants are one way of helping make sure this happens.

D. Many, many people in other industries have assistants.

 peppermill 09 Nov 2022
In reply to Siward:

> I suppose paramedic vs a doctor is a comparison. 

Well no, not really, for the most part.

However I'd say the OP is rather a similar type of question to 

"Can someone explain the apparent need for all these extra staff in A&E, what's stopping the doctors doing everything?"

1
 gimmergimmer 09 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

I taught in special schools where teaching assistants were needed, for everything from individual behaviours to personal care. During my spell in these schools the intake became more dominated by students with severe learning disabilities. Those with milder disabilities were increasingly 'integrated' into mainstream schools. Hence the need for teaching assistants in mainstream so that the teacher's focus wasn't mainly only on those with special needs or to stop disruption.

 Holdtickler 09 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

A good TA is worth their weight in gold. Standards in education have risen a lot in the last few decades, well at least the expectations have... In the past many teachers mainly employed a "chalk and talk" style, where there was little interaction or differentiated levels of work, little attention paid to individual learning styles or personal and social development. Many of the things some of us might have done at school, like copying from the board/textbook would be deemed pointless and unsatisfactory today. A lesson is also deemed unsatisfactory if every child is not both engaged and being challenged at all times. You can't just have the kids who've finished colouring in any more. 

Since most of our special schools were closed, the range of abilities within mainstream classes has grown a lot. An extra pair of hands in the class means you can differentiate lessons a lot more effectively and contrary to what some others had said, that doesn't necessarily mean the TA always working with the SEN group (a good TA helps build independence by not always being there...). You might have your TA minding the class, "floorwalking" whilst the teacher is delivering a focused group session or working one-to-one. The valuable feedback from TAs feeds into the teachers planning/assessment cycle. Almost every aspect of teacher workloads has increased to the point where we have long lists of jobs that a teacher is not supposed to do, but most realistically still do most of them anyway because things would grind to a halt if they didn't. TAs ease some of this workload allowing teachers to prioritise more.

TAs can also have a slightly different role in terms of pastoral care. The teacher needs to maintain authority and overall control and discipline of the class. A TA on the other hand can sometimes be a bit more "pally" with the students which can be beneficial for personal and social development as well as having an important roles in identifying things like child protection issues and other things outside school, which schools take increasing responsibility for. 

In short, TAs are so integral to the workings of modern schools that you just couldn't do without them without taking a huge drop in the overall standards and a lot more kids slipping through the net.

 Toerag 09 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

From reading posts, it seems that TAs existence has been somewhat random over the years / locations - certainly I don't remember any in my infants or junior schools (80-86) and I remember all the teachers.  Were they something that was up to the LEA to provide (or not as the case may be)?

It would be interesting to know the difference in outcomes they've made.

 RobAJones 09 Nov 2022
In reply to Toerag:

> From reading posts, it seems that TAs existence has been somewhat random over the years / locations

Not sure if random is the correct word, but when I started in the early 90's in my first school 20% of the teaching staff were TA's other schools in Tameside had less than 5%, but this depended on the nature of the intake. If you went to a selective school or were in the top set of a comprehensive you would have been (and still are) much less likely to encounter a TA 

- certainly I don't remember any in my infants or junior schools (80-86) and I remember all the teachers.

They did exist but in much smaller numbers, I think rather than in class support they were often used for small groups but in a separate room. The number of TA's in mainstream school roughly doubled in the 90's from 30k to 60k it is now over 200k, but as others have said many children who would have been in specialist school are now in mainstream ones. 

> It would be interesting to know the difference in outcomes they've made.

There are studies but the data is open to manipulation depending on the authors agenda. As others have said a skilled TA is a significant asset, a extra random adult in the classroom less so 

 Duncan Bourne 09 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Tell me a job nowadays that isn't stressfull or demanding? Or one with lots of time off?

Gardener

 deepsoup 09 Nov 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Tell me a job nowadays that isn't stressfull or demanding? Or one with lots of time off?

If you take the simple precaution of not giving a shit about your constituents, MP is a good one.


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