Teaching

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 tjdodd 29 Oct 2020

I know there are quite a few teachers on the forum.  Did any of you move into teaching after a previous career later in life?  How did you find it?  I appreciate teaching, whilst rewarding, is a tough job for a number of reasons.  Is it a young persons job or is it worth doing for 10 years later in life?

 greg_may_ 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

Moved from previous career in academia - sort of a sideways move TBH. Was always planned. Only moved into this area when I was 38 and we started a family. Don't regret it.

 DaveHK 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

> I know there are quite a few teachers on the forum.  Did any of you move into teaching after a previous career later in life?  How did you find it?  I appreciate teaching, whilst rewarding, is a tough job for a number of reasons.  Is it a young persons job or is it worth doing for 10 years later in life?

I think there are huge benefits from going into it a bit later although it does depend on your personal qualities too.

 Dax H 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

It's a separate debate so sorry if this causes a derailment but I would rather have a teacher who has been out in the working world and can bring that experience to the table rather than a person young or old who has never been outside academia. 

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 ClimberEd 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

> I know there are quite a few teachers on the forum.  Did any of you move into teaching after a previous career later in life?  How did you find it?  I appreciate teaching, whilst rewarding, is a tough job for a number of reasons.  Is it a young persons job or is it worth doing for 10 years later in life?

I'm not a teacher but I followed someone else's transition with great interest.

Have a look around for Lucy Kellaways articles about it, mainly in the FT (which you should be able to access with a bit of thought). 

Here's her on the teach first site.

https://nowteach.org.uk/lucy-kellaway-from-ft-columnist-to-now-teach-traine...

 Graeme G 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

I’ve met countless teachers, young and old. One of the best was 6 months from retirement.

If you’re going into it for the right reasons with the right mindset you’ll find it to be one of the most rewarding things you’ll ever do.

Post edited at 12:54
 The Grist 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

I retrained as a history secondary teacher a couple of years ago aged 41. Was a terrible move. Found the job an absolute nightmare for a number of reasons. Ended up leaving after 6 weeks and have no intention of going back. The negatives were as follows:

1. Behaviour of pupils. Two in 11 classes were a joke. The school just threw it back on me when I escalated it. 
2. workload. I was literally working 60 or 70 hours a week. Marking was huge. Paperwork was enormous. 
3. work satisfaction. It did not do it for me in the way I thought it would. I did not feel I could teach in classes with 32 kids (or more). It was simply like herding cats. 
 

if I were you I would stay well clear. 

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Roadrunner6 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

> I know there are quite a few teachers on the forum.  Did any of you move into teaching after a previous career later in life?  How did you find it?  I appreciate teaching, whilst rewarding, is a tough job for a number of reasons.  Is it a young persons job or is it worth doing for 10 years later in life?

I moved in after academia. Started about age 35.

1. Now is a shit time. We are public enemy number 1 again. Some say we take too many risks, others say we don't do enough.. I've had parents in for letting kids play soccer wearing masks. I've had parents in for keeping kids socially distanced..

2. I love it but its hard work and you are pretty much always being attacked by someone. You deal with hundreds of people, 50-60 kids, their parents etc. There's normally someone unhappy with you. It's just part of the job, the 95% who are happy with you won't say it but that 1 person who wants your job can get at you. You can't have bad days so be thick skinned, let comments go. 'my mum wants you sacked', the response 'well tell her to go f*ck herself' may be close to your lips but you can't say it.. 

3. I think I've become a much better teacher each year, I'm now 6-7 years in. Learn from your mistakes, grow, it's a massive learning curve and stick with it. Many quit within 2-3 years. Take risks. We have not perfected teaching at all. We're learning all the time and what worked 20 years ago doesn't necessarily work with this generation, and what works in one school may not work in yours.

4. It is rewarding, especially now. We give kids that normality for just a few hours. Even when they are arguing on a soccer pitch. That's just them engrossed in a game forgetting about the shit life has thrown at them. But if you don't like it leave. Seeing teachers who are in it for the pension is depressing. The kids know it. They know it. I genuinely love coming to school each day. I missed them when I was remote. And be tough on them, hold them to account. They will appreciate it at college.

Post edited at 14:14
 TobyA 29 Oct 2020
In reply to The Grist:

Did you do a PGCE and then get your first job and leave that? Or do you mean you left 6 weeks after starting a PGCE? I presume the former?

My NQT year was pretty sh**, I was the same age as you and (after my dad - an old shop steward! - suggested I count my hours) noted a couple of weeks I managed to work 80 hrs! I would say 60+ was the norm. This isn't great for you, and definitely isn't great for your own children and partner.

I've now been qualified for just over 5 years, so I guess I'm through that stage that seems to lead to between 1/3 and 1/2 (different news reports report different figures) leaving the profession. I do know that out of the relatively small group in our subject-specialisation that I did the PGCE with, it is probably about that proportion who aren't teaching any more.

Roadrunner6 29 Oct 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Yeah I now teach 2 90 minute bio classes a day. Same curriculum. same 2 classes. 

My work load is a fraction of what it was when I taught 5 different classes, 4 days a week. I now prep 5 classes a week, I used to prep 20.. next quarter I teach 1 chem class and 1 marine class a day, but I have the lesson plans from last year. This year we have 60 minutes direct instruction, plus 30 mins extended learning time so it does need rejigging a bit but my work load 6-7 years in is much lower. For most sections I teach I have my core activities planned and developed from previous years. The first few years are brutal. But with social media and teacherspayteachers type support you can put things together.

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In reply to tjdodd:

I started teaching in my early 30s after spending my 20s working various other jobs and not really achieving very much! I'm currently in my fourth year of teaching as a secondary History teacher. I have never regretted moving into the role as I feel it is a vocation that suits me. I am really keen on my subject and I enjoy working with younger people. Most days are good, with meaningful interactions and a sense of promoting learning and reflection. Some days are excellent when I really feel you've made an impact or the kids have said/ done something that has changed my perspective. However, when you have a bad day it can feel like the end of the world: like you've let someone down, or it's all pointless. Just like any job I suppose, it has its ups and downs but for me it has been a positive experience.

Just echo the post above: the workload can be very intense at times, with the 'teaching' bit actually being a relatively small part of the actual job. I am regularly putting in 60/70/80 hour working weeks during term time, especially around pinch points of assessment cycles/ report writings. The evenings, weekends and (I'm sorry to say) a fair chunk of the holidays fill up with bits and bobs of planning and admin. It's not a restful job and the pressure to ensure your cohort is performing, you're on track with assessment/ schemes of work can be quite demanding. You do learn to pace yourself, though, and work more efficiently and find space for rest/ climbing etc.

To summarise: teaching is massively diverse. So much of it depends on your motivation and the setting in which you find yourself. I'm really blessed to be in a school where I deal with very few behaviour problems and so can concentrate on teaching and learning. If there's any opportunity for you to do shadowing/ work experience at a local school (covid being the major problem here) I'd suggest that as it will give you an idea of the working environment and whether you would enjoy it.

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 The Grist 29 Oct 2020
In reply to TobyA:

I completed the PGCE year and left before the end of the first term in the NQT year. 
 

It was an ‘outstanding’ school but I could see it was not. Interestingly it is now in special measures and the headmaster was sacked. It had pretty much no system of disciplinary escalation. If just sat back and relied on being outstanding. 
 

In retrospect it was a bad school to do the NCT year at and they were wholly unsupportive of me. I had a young child at the time to support and financially could not afford to roll the dice again and try a different school. 

I was previously working as a solicitor so went back to that. 
 

 marsbar 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

In my experience the majority of career changers drop out because it isn't what they expected.  

There are still a small number of schools that treat their staff well, but they are few and far between.  Many schools take advantage of the enthusiasm of new starters and pile on the hours.  

The amount of pointless paperwork and data manipulation gets increasingly excessive.  

The behaviour can be shocking, and the blame on you, not those misbehaving or the management who fail to back you.  

If you do decide to go for it, pick your school very carefully.  

Maybe do some agency work first (as a TA or cover supervisor) and see how that goes, it will also give you the real view of the schools not what they show on interview.  

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 The Grist 29 Oct 2020
In reply to TobyA:

over half the people who did the NCT course with me three years ago have quit teaching. There were 22 on the course. That statistic can not be ignored and exists for a reason. 

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 marsbar 29 Oct 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

Teach first is a bit like a cult.  You can always tell if you work with someone who trained with them.  Usually clever but somewhat lacking in common sense, and no concept that there might be more than one way to do anything.  Any indication of personality has usually been removed.  They produce adequate teachers who can follow the script but who don't cope with anything else.  

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 marsbar 29 Oct 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

I notice she is teaching part time.  

That says it all.  

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Roadrunner6 29 Oct 2020
In reply to The Grist:

I worked at an awful school. No support, constant blame, pregnant wife. I quit in 11 days, I served my notice period for another 2 months but it was awful. I was lucky in that at the same time I was getting calls from another school so I walked out and joined them and loved it. The pay was less but my quality of life was incomparable. I'd finish the day close to tears mentally broken, EVERY day. They'd go through CCTV and send you disciplinary letters if they saw you did anything wrong. The head was later sacked but I couldn't wait around. That was 2015, and I still earn less than I did it at that first job it was so well paid but it was horrible. Most days I'd go home with shirts ripped from separating fighting students, we'd clean down the blood after fights. It was like working in a prison. We had security guards and police but they were often too slow to react.

No school is perfect but I know what environment I like to teach in.

Bad days are bad though still but I think that's because teachers do care about their students.  

Post edited at 15:06
 Graeme G 29 Oct 2020
In reply to The Grist:

> That statistic can not be ignored and exists for a reason. 

The wrong people did the course?

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baron 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

> I know there are quite a few teachers on the forum.  Did any of you move into teaching after a previous career later in life?  How did you find it?  I appreciate teaching, whilst rewarding, is a tough job for a number of reasons.  Is it a young persons job or is it worth doing for 10 years later in life?

Teaching is such a varied job that it’s very difficult to give you an answer.

It’s possible for two different teachers to have lengthy careers with completely different experiences.

I started teaching in my thirties having previously been a shipbuilder, a soldier, a labourer and a youth worker.

I taught secondary pupils in an independent school, an inner city comprehensive and finally a special school.

There were some marvellous, rewarding times and some absolutely desperate ones.
While some jobs will be far more physically demanding there possibly aren’t many that will leave you feeling as mentally exhausted at the end of a six week term.

A contemporary of mine taught in a different school in the same town and had a far easier and possibly more rewarding career due to the type of school that he taught in. Sometimes, like many jobs, luck can play a major part in both your daily job and your career.

Was it someone on this forum who said - “Teaching, the job where you steal stationery from home and take it to work”?

 bouldery bits 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

As was a mortgage adviser then worked in The investment side of Financial services. After years of making rich people richer, and making the world demonstrably worse, my wife and I both sacked it in and retrained to be primary teachers.

I love it. I don't work any more hours than I used to (although, to be fair, I used to put in the hours and still do!). I find it very rewarding and love having my class and building connections with the kids. I don't always win, in fact many days I lose big, but that's part of the ride! A certain amount of resilience is required at times. I would also recommend a flexible approach and humour is your best tool.

Best of luck!! 

BB

 DaveHK 29 Oct 2020
In reply to Dax H:

> It's a separate debate so sorry if this causes a derailment but I would rather have a teacher who has been out in the working world and can bring that experience to the table rather than a person young or old who has never been outside academia. 

Coming in from another career can be a blessing or a curse.  A blessing if you've gained relevant skills, a curse if you've got used to a way of working that doesn't fit with teaching.

Roadrunner6 29 Oct 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

I think you bring real life experience though.

Teachers at my school have often come from elite prep school, to liberal arts college, to elite prep school teaching. 

baron 29 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

I knew you were a teacher but didn’t realise that you are a primary teacher. How you do that job I’ll never know. Chapeau!  

gezebo 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

Personally I think there should be a minimum age before entering teaching (and a few other jobs) as there are too many with zero real life/world experience in the job. 

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 marsbar 29 Oct 2020
In reply to gezebo:

In theory I'd agree, but in practice I've met some amazing young teachers who are energetic and brilliant at the job.  

 DaveHK 29 Oct 2020
In reply to gezebo:

> Personally I think there should be a minimum age before entering teaching (and a few other jobs) as there are too many with zero real life/world experience in the job. 

I think this idea of real life experience being important is a bit simplistic. It needs to be the right kind of experience to foster the right kind of skills. I've known a lot of good teachers and a few shit ones and I don't think the key difference was their route into it or prior experience.

 bouldery bits 29 Oct 2020
In reply to baron:

> I knew you were a teacher but didn’t realise that you are a primary teacher. How you do that job I’ll never know. Chapeau!  

That's very kind, thank you!

I intended to teach Secondary originally, but before choosing a course, I did some work experience at a Primary and fell in love with it. I love having a regular class and the variety - I teach all sorts of topics and this means I learn new skills as well. Who knew I could teach ballet and place well in a national competition with Year 4? I didn't know I was able to teach ceramics and it turns out I can teach French! 

Post edited at 17:09
 Andy Clarke 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

I went into teaching pretty young, but I had already spent  a year working in industry. I don't think it made that much difference to me, to be honest. When I was a secondary head,  I had brilliant staff who were straight out of uni, and equally brilliant staff who joined as mature entrants with a couple of decades of experience in other fields. These staff had very diverse personalities and styles, but the two things they had in common were huge enthusiasm for their subject and a genuine enjoyment of young people's company.

Of course the job isn't for everybody and of course you need to be resilient at times - especially when starting out. There are some poor and ill-disciplined schools out there - but I know from my regional and national experience that it's far fewer than some news outlets would have the public believe.

Personally, I loved teaching. It can be spectacularly rewarding at times. I enjoyed the thrill of classroom teaching so much that I carried on with a significant timetable commitment (approx 30%) even when I was head of an 11-18 comp of around 1400 students. Most other heads I knew had retreated behind their PAs and into their offices, but I wasn't prepared to give up on the excitement. If you like banter and taking the mick out of teenagers, it's even better.

gezebo 29 Oct 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

I’d agree that it may be a bit simplistic but the counter argument could be how can a person with no direct experience of working away from the world of school or university be able prepare young people for the big wide world. I’m sure many (at least non-teachers) would agree that how schools operate bare little real resemblance to how self-employment, industry or retail really work. 
 

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 alan moore 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

After 20 years working shifts in factory with 90 decibel machines, working with heavy metals and poisonous lubricants, life as a teacher felt like a great big holiday. In fact, for a quarter of the year you are on holiday! 

I was never really a natural at teaching but a few years working part time as a classroom assistant was invaluable for getting used to the classroom situation and a chance to observe other teachers at work. 

I went into additional support needs early on, just because that's what interested me. Plenty of hurly burly but I get to work closely with a small group of pupils. Been doing it for 15 years now, and although I'm now far too old to be 'cool with the kids' it's still fun.

 Kalna_kaza 30 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

I've no teaching experience but have a number of friends who have. Some quit early on, others love it. My best science teachers all had prior industrial experience.

One thing that none of them can satisfactorily explain is the need for excessive amounts of paperwork and marking. Why try and implement a hugely burdensome system of constant performance monitoring when it's clear it has a very negative impact on, err, teacher performance.

Given the number of schools now run by academy trusts with their independence, why don't they reduce making, long excess hours and improve the lives of their staff? Surely a less knackered set of teachers can do their jobs better, kids learn more and the school gets better results. Or am I being hopelessly naive and reality is very much on the side of highly pressurised management?

 Morty 30 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

> Did any of you move into teaching after a previous career later in life? 

Yes, I was thirty when I started. I've been teaching for sixteen years.

>How did you find it? 

The PGCE and NQT year were tough but things eased off.  However, the job became increasingly difficult once Gove and his ilk began meddling. Despite a number of rewarding experiences, if I had a time machine I would advise my younger self against it.  Last week I was talking to a colleague about the current workload and he remarked, "This last week has been the most stressful of my life - and I've been shot at in Iraq and Afghanistan!" It sounds hyperbolic but he really meant it. 

The main issues are a heavy workload, behaviour issues, staff bullying and inadequate school funding.  If you add Covid to this it makes for a large shit sandwich that is less palatable with each bite. 

> Is it a young persons job or is it worth doing for 10 years later in life?

I would advise both young and old to do something else - anything else. Look on the TES forums for a better impression. 

Post edited at 07:35
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OP tjdodd 30 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

Thanks all for the replies.  It gives me a well rounded set of perspectives and as expected a mixture of positives and negatives.  My overall sense is that it would quite likely be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

Back to mulling mid life crisis.  At least my current stressful position seems to be heading to a resolution which whilst not ideal will at least force change. 

baron 30 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

> Thanks all for the replies.  It gives me a well rounded set of perspectives and as expected a mixture of positives and negatives.  My overall sense is that it would quite likely be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

> Back to mulling mid life crisis.  At least my current stressful position seems to be heading to a resolution which whilst not ideal will at least force change. 

Don’t forget that teaching still gives you thirteen weeks paid holidays, a reasonable wage and a half decent pension. Any one of these might be a good reason to pursue a career in teaching. They’re the reasons that I went into teaching and despite many ups and downs during my career the holidays, money and pension remained as incentives.

While the paperwork might have increased and Covid has obviously placed a great burden on teachers there have been some improvements in the job such as the introduction of teaching assistants, learning mentors, planning and preparation time and not having to do the job of colleagues who are absent.
I’d give it some serious thought before I dismissed teaching as a future career - just don’t be a primary teacher, that’s a really, really hard job.

 phizz4 30 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

Don't forget that, if you enter teaching in your 30's or 40's your final pension and lump sum will be significantly reduced. You have to teach for 40 years to get full benefits (at least, that was my situation when I took my pension 9 years early) but that may have changed. I survived, and ultimately regained my ability to teach rather than crowd manage, by being lucky enough to get a job for those last 9 years in the private sector. I think that whether you will enjoy the experience depends very much on the school that you are in.

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 Graeme G 30 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

> Thanks all for the replies.

Please note most of these appear to be about teaching in England. Teaching isn’t the same everywhere, either in the UK, or across the globe. Probably massively varied in England too?

Good luck, whatever decision you make.

OP tjdodd 30 Oct 2020
In reply to phizz4:

Thanks again for further comments.

Re the pension, I am in a good position.  I am in HE so already have a pretty good pension built up in USS and am now already in the teachers pension scheme (only with one year).  Basically financially I am pretty secure now.

The alternative is to move back to a teaching position in a university but I like the idea of giving back to an even younger generation.

Lots going around in my head at the moment so all the advice is really helpful.

 Fozzy 30 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

I moved into teaching in my early 30s following a previous career in investigative journalism. 
I enjoy it, but that’s not to say there’s no downsides. I work in a nice school with excellent SLT, and my head of department is fantastic. Due to my subject, there’s not a massive amount of marking pressure as most of it is done via in-class feedback on ongoing practical work, but I do have to do the reporting & stats faff the same as everybody else. 
I also have a pastoral role alongside my teaching, which manages to be hugely satisfying, emotionally draining and incredibly irritating (usually all 3 at the same time). 

With regards to long term career planning, I don’t have any intention to quit any time soon. 
 

 Herdwickmatt 30 Oct 2020
In reply to baron:

I agree, don’t forget the holidays! For some teaching is a higher calling, their mission in life. For some (but often they won’t admit it) it’s about holidays! I am in it for the holidays (and I do generally enjoy it), but would agree  with the comment about the 5% of people wanting to get you fired comment earlier on!

Roadrunner6 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Yeah, I protect my holidays. I love teaching but there's time I'm dealing with a shitty parent in February and summer pulls me through. Despite the holidays we struggle for teachers but it is a huge plus for me. I know some teachers who get extra jobs for the summer but I protect that time to enjoy the summer.

 LakesWinter 30 Oct 2020
In reply to baron:

Primary's ace but you need to work in a school with a competent and non psychopathic SLT - this is a hard balance to find as the pressures of headship turn quite a few of them into crazy mofos

 Fozzy 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> Yeah, I protect my holidays. 

I refuse to check my emails during the holidays until the last day, as I don’t want to be thinking about work when I’m off. This often leads to a few grumbles about me not replying to stuff in a timely manner, but that’s their fault for being weird & working when they are meant to be off. 

 marsbar 30 Oct 2020
In reply to LakesWinter:

> Primary's ace but you need to work in a school with a competent and non psychopathic SLT - this is a hard balance to find as the pressures of headship turn quite a few of them into crazy mofos

Same in secondary, but you need to get reasonable head of dept and head of year as well.  

I can only assume that the pressure of being expected to deliver the impossible alongside the delusion that all children can somehow achieve above average if only we are more mindful and have a growth mindset does something to encourage competent leaders to run a mile while psychopathic narcissists and their yes men get promoted.  

Not ALL schools, but more than is healthy.  

 marsbar 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Fozzy:

I've made an occasional exception to my usual rule for Covid.  

I only check my emails during my working day, using the schools computer while I am in the building.  

Most of it is pointless anyway and repetitive.  

During Covid working at home I used email to communicate with students.  That isn't pointless.  

 Andy Clarke 30 Oct 2020
In reply to marsbar:

> Same in secondary, but you need to get reasonable head of dept and head of year as well.  

> I can only assume that the pressure of being expected to deliver the impossible alongside the delusion that all children can somehow achieve above average if only we are more mindful and have a growth mindset does something to encourage competent leaders to run a mile while psychopathic narcissists and their yes men get promoted.  

> Not ALL schools, but more than is healthy.  

I think I may be the only ex Secondary head who regularly posts on here, so I feel I must speak up on behalf of my colleagues. In my wide and long experience, the proportions of brilliant, good, so-so and crap heads pretty much exactly reflects the proportions of brilliant, good, so-so and crap teachers. During my career I spent god knows how many hours supporting under-performing staff, sometimes wishing they'd just be honourable enough to admit the job wasn't for them. But I only ever lost all sympathy if they started trying to blame the kids. Finally, if you'd met my superb but very forthright senior team, you'd know it's not only yes people who get promoted! 

1
In reply to tjdodd:

The subject you intend to teach can make a huge difference.

Maths and English are tough gigs and my hat goes off to them. They are compulsory subjects for S1-S4 and the majority of pupils don't want to be there. Add to that classes are often over 30 pupils and both have a high homework volume. Some othrer subjects have a class limit of 20 and pupils have chosen the subject so are much more engaged.  Either way a significant proportion of your time will be spent on crowd control.  If you don't suffer fools gladly then you're going to have a tough time.  Pupils will always push boundaries.

As a newly qualified teacher you're also unlikely to get the top classes which are generally much better behaved and easier to teach.  The first 3-4 years are very hard work but once you know the curriculum, school policies and how to manage pupils the job gets much easier and you'll likely be entrusted with top sets. 

Time isn't on your side and you're probably at the upper age limit so don't hang about making a decision. There's plenty of work out there and securing a permanent post in a good school will be your biggest challenge.  Recessions tend to lead to influxes into teaching due to the relative security of the profession so whereas you could walk in the door last year places will become much more competitive over the next couple of years.  

On the plus side it's highly rewarding knowing that you've made a difference to a young person's life. The working day is short. I pretty much can be at the crag before 4pm. Half day on a Fri. 6 weeks holiday in summer. (7 weeks every fifth year) 2 weeks each at Easter, October and Xmas.  42k a year for an unpromoted teacher. (No performance related pay in scotland thank goodness). Decent pension. 

Went in at 38 after 15 years as a design engineer in the water industry. Could've taught Maths or Physics but chose Technology.  I'd always had a bit of a hankering to do it. Wish I'd done it years earlier. Great work life balance.

 marsbar 31 Oct 2020
In reply to Andy Clarke:

I'm not sure how long it is since you retired, but things have deteriorated relatively recently. 

There are too many academy chains run by people who don't care about the kids, and too many fast track headteachers.  

Too much reliance on flawed KS2 data means pupils are being pressured to the point of mental illness.  

Bullying of older staff is rife, as it makes financial sense to employ younger teachers.  

Maybe I've seen more of the bad than most, as a supply teacher I go to a lot of schools.  The worst schools obviously need more supply cover.  

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 Andy Clarke 31 Oct 2020
In reply to marsbar:

It's 12 years since I retired and although I still meet up with members of my senior team who are still working, I accept my personal experience is more and more out of date. I was never a fan of academisation and can't think of an initiative more likely to erode local accountability and community cohesion, while simultaneously proving vastly more expensive and less efficient in enabling inspirational leadership and support for school improvement. Having said all that, I have far more experience of working with under-performing and poorly-motivated teaching staff than anyone who hasn't been head of a big school. I also spent many years working on a regional initiative to find second-chance schools for permanently excluded kids. I've seen schools with a critical mass of poor teachers who have defeated the best efforts of previously successful heads brought in to "turn things around."  When schools go bad and the culture sours, it suits a lot of people to blame the head. This is a convenient fiction: everyone has to take responsibility.

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 marsbar 31 Oct 2020
In reply to Andy Clarke:

Bad teachers need to be dealt with.  I have no issue with that.  My issue is that I have seen good and excellent teachers bullied using the same procedures meant for bad teachers because if they can replace someone on the upper pay scale with an NQT it saves money.  

A school I worked in had 2 bad members of staff in a department of around 10.  One was a terrible teacher who had been employed by the head with various management points as well as UPS.  The other was Ok but nearing retirement and refused to change the old fashioned methods.  

There was plenty of evidence for the really bad teacher (negative average progress of classes using test results for example) and the other one could easily have been reigned in a bit but wasn't.  This went on for years. 

SLT response was to put all 10 members of the department on improvement plans.  Back to student teacher levels of monitoring, frequent observations and checking up.  

I can assure you I would have preferred it if they dealt with the bad teacher but they didn't for some reason.  

Post edited at 10:52
 Andy Clarke 31 Oct 2020
In reply to marsbar:

> Bad teachers need to be dealt with.  I have no issue with that.  My issue is that I have seen good and excellent teachers bullied using the same procedures meant for bad teachers because if they can replace someone on the upper pay scale with an NQT it saves money.  

The amount of money this saves as  a proportion of  the budget of an average-size Secondary school is utterly trivial, so any head prepared to invest the huge amount of genuinely expensive time taken up by capability procedures to achieve such loose change is a damn fool. Sadly, I have to admit there are a few damn fools in headship as in any job.

On a related note I have heard a number of times from unsuccessful job applicants the hint that a younger teacher than them was appointed because they were cheaper. Again, any head who would avoid appointing the best teacher to save a few pennies would be even more of an idiot. Given how hard it is to get good staff, and how damaging poor classroom performance is, it's just storing up trouble. Why would I go to the bother of setting up trial lessons with staff, governor and student observers, or School Council  interview panels etc, if I was just going to appoint the cheapest NQT who wandered in? I wouldn't. We don't do it. More comforting fiction.

 marsbar 31 Oct 2020
In reply to Andy Clarke:

Interestingly enough some of the academies don't bother with such things.  New teachers just appear.  

 Andy Clarke 31 Oct 2020
In reply to marsbar:

> Interestingly enough some of the academies don't bother with such things.  New teachers just appear.  

Such things were regarded as innovative when I introduced them in my school many years ago, but I'd hope much of it would have become mainstream by now. I still recall some staff at first thinking that conducting the interviews for MFL candidates in the foreign language they were supposed to be able to teach was a bit "unfair." (We were a specialist language school!) And the idea of having a student representative on the actual appointments panel met with initial resistance. The School Council certainly came up with some terrifying questions: "When was the last time you cried?" for instance. If the ideologically-driven, hugely expensive academies nonsense has led to any genuine curriculum innovation or development of cutting-edge practice, I must have missed it.

J1234 31 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd:

You really need to ask yourself why you want to be a teacher, if its a vocation and you really think you will enjoy engaging with children and young adults, go for it.

If you think its a great way to see you to retirement with plenty of holidays, I would suggest its not for you..

Three people I climb with tried it, one at 30ish, one at 50 ish and one at late 50s, they all soon realised it was a major error.



 

OP tjdodd 31 Oct 2020
In reply to J1234:

Interesting to hear people trying it in their 50s.  Not quite there yet but not far off.

Completely agree that it must be seen and treated as a vocation.  I am in no doubt that it is not an easy ride to retirement.  Perhaps stupidly I am not one for an easy life.

Thanks again for all the answers.  Much to ponder.

1
 Timmd 31 Oct 2020
In reply to Andy Clarke: I'm struck by the 'More comforting fiction'  You almost seem to be assuming that everybody else is as rational and logical as you, a look around on facebook and youtube (and here?) and in life in general shows up all kinds of variables to do with being logical and sensible, and rational. 

Obviously, I'm not seeing myself as flawless, it's more it's often a mistake to apply one's own ways of thinking to other people...

Post edited at 13:57
 Timmd 31 Oct 2020
In reply to tjdodd: My Mum was a teacher, and for her it was most definitely a vocation, she went to teacher college and taught for her whole career, after one or two jobs like peeling sprouts and things to make ends meet. 

If you're the kind of person who'd put up things which say 'To teach is to touch a life forever' to inspire you in the office at home, I think teaching would be a good thing to do.

Post edited at 13:58
 Andy Clarke 31 Oct 2020
In reply to Timmd:

> I'm struck by the 'More comforting fiction'  You almost seem to be assuming that everybody else is as rational and logical as you, a look around on facebook and youtube (and here?) and in life in general shows up all kinds of variables to do with being logical and sensible, and rational. 

> Obviously, I'm not seeing myself as flawless, it's more it's often a mistake to apply one's own ways of thinking to other people...

Fair enough. It did used to irritate me that job applicants would kid themselves I was daft enough to appoint somebody worse than them just because they were a tiny bit cheaper. And this is a surprisingly popular myth in teaching. But I do appreciate that failure is tough and all of us sometimes feel the need to put the blame on someone or something other than ourselves.


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