UKH

If you knew someone had fraudulently claimed £10,000 from the governments small business grant scheme would you do anything about it?

In reply to Le Sapeur:

Course I would. I'd demand half of it for keeping quiet :p

In reply to Le Sapeur:

What henwardian said, and then I'd shop them. If you ask for it in cash you've nothing to worry about.

It's easy to see it as 'Only 10.000 in the scheme of things...', but if everybody who knows about something like this keeps quiet, it soon adds up.

There's a strong moral case for telling the authorities about them, but it possibly depends on how comfortable you are about doing that to some degree too, to what degree they might suffer (which they arguably deserve). An ex friend who ripped me off for £250 has moved north, partly to escape her council debts, and I keep toying with ringing the hotline to tell them where she's gone, but she's very damaged and I can't quite bring myself to.

If they're reasonably robust and solid as individuals that may ease your dilemma...

In reply to Le Sapeur:

How?

its linked to business rates, so pretty difficult to fiddle..

maybe you are thinking of the loan scheme or something else.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

If it's definitely fraud I would shop them in an instant but as has been said it's linked to business rates so I'm not sure how it can be done.

In reply to Dax H:

Indeed, eligibility is a simple matter of fact based on whether business rates have been paid (or exempted) or not.  Our Scout Group received the full £10K on that basis - seems a bit odd to get so much when a couple of grand would have done, but that's how it worked to keep it simple.

I'm therefore not quite sure how it *could* be claimed fraudulently.

In reply to neilh:

reports this morning on R4 of partners in LLPs applying for aid and finding that they can't make an application as an earlier application in their name had already been made.  Happened to one partner 3 times.  Sounds like an inside fraud in HMRC

In reply to Dax H:

It's not their main income.

In reply to neilh:

reports this morning on R4 of partners in LLPs applying for aid and finding that they can't make an application as an earlier application in their name had already been made.  Happened to one partner 3 times.  Sounds like an inside fraud in HMRC

to OP yes  I would report it unless there were extremely pressing reasons for not doing so.  Not sure what those would be but never say never

Having said that it didn't hurt Liam Fox to claim ridiculous personal expenses.  We're supposed to believe in him as an authority figure, unbelievable.

In reply to wercat:

Does not work like that on the £10 k grant. 

I suspect they are talking about the business loan scheme. 

In reply to Le Sapeur:

There’s mass fraud going on.

Due diligence has been dropped in order to get the money out, when the press pointed out the loans were taking too long to approve  

Exactly what the penalties will be remains to be.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

The £10k grant was paid against a business (or sole trader) not an individual. If you paid business rates AND you qualified for Small Business Rate Relief you qualified for the £10K grant. Fraud would be possible if you were already claiming illegally for SBRR for 2 premises for the same business. 
 

Cezza

In reply to Le Sapeur:

you could report and the most likely outcome is that absolutely nothing will be done.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

Yes.

There's lots of fraud happening - a kitchen company that furloughed its entire staff and then re-hired them in a different company shell to do the work.

Bastards all of them - yes, tell the authorities; no, don't expect action.

In reply to Alyson30:

I think you might be surprised, I know someone who works for the HMRC in the fraud department and they are gearing up to drop like a ton of bricks.

In reply to Dax H:

I can't think of any factor more aggravating the criminality of fraud than perpetrating it on the country during a pandemic and taking advantage of emergency measures. 

In reply to wercat:

Me neither. The grants, Furlough and loans were a lifeline for a lot of business. I hope they throw the entire library at anyone found to have taken the piss.

In reply to Dax H:

Agreed. There are going to be some business owners who reaaly have not thought this through. And the HMRC can take as long as they want to go after them. 

In reply to neilh:

I’d be happy to report them and chase HMRC a year later to give them a nudge. It’s utterly disgusting conduct.

In reply to cezza:

You didn't have to qualify for SBRR. Grants were also available for certain sectors eg leisure.

In reply to Dax H:

Nah I don't think I would be surprised. There was already way too much low level fraud going on for HMRC to prosecute, with the covid related measure which have basically enabled it on a massive scale, there is no way. It's physically impossible for HMRC to pursue and prosecute more than a tiny fraction of all these cases.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

Thanks all. I've been struggling with this one as it's someone I know. Not well, but well enough for them to have bragged to me about 'getting free money from the government'. I'm really annoyed that someone who doesn't need the grant received it. I know this person has a well paid job and received the grant on a second and quite minor income. Basically this business is pocket money. However there is a huge part of me that struggles with the reporting of this crime. I've always been in the position of sorting out problems for myself and this just doesn't fall into that category.

In reply to Le Sapeur: If it's a well paid job and they're bragging as well, that tips me over into definitely reporting them. People could rightly that I'm being subjective but that's really annoying of the person you know.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

That doesn't sound like fraud, it sounds like a little good fortune. Fixed rate grants attached to liabilities (business rates), which might be very insignificant liabilities. You might not like their attitude, but it is probably legitimate.

I am involved with an athletics club, which has a lease on some changing rooms, which have a rateable value, although we don't pay any rates because of various exemptions, we where eligible for the grant, I got a phone call from the Council basically telling us to apply. 

In reply to Le Sapeur:

What crime? As has been repeatedly stated if you received it then you must have been eligible for it.

i don’t remember anything about it needing to be your main business and I read over the small print like a hawk.

I’ve  friends who rent a storage cupboard in a small room with 8 cupboards in, but because each 3x3m space was divided up into separate ratable spaces all 8 got 10k. They weren’t anything to do with peoples incomes they where were graffiti taggers stored their spray cans and ladders 
 

In reply to Le Sapeur:

Unfortunately this doesn’t sound like fraud, this is just the case of money goes to money, he’s guilty of being a bit crass but working the system to your advantage is a cottage industry in the U.K. 

Either through tax advantages or grants, it used to be the preserve of the Uber wealthy but has become a thing among certain groups of upper middle income chancers who have set them self’s up as LTD companies and act like mini trumps, “minimising their tax exposure”

whilst hoovering up any available “free” money.

In reply to Garygoretex:

From the Scottish governments website....

Self-catering accommodation and caravans

Self-catering accommodation and caravans were eligible for these grants if they: 

are a primary source of income for the ratepayer (one third or more), and 

were let out for 140 days or more in financial year 2019-20.....

As I said in a previous post, this is not their main source of income, not even close to one third. 

Just because it has been repeatedly stated doesn't make it correct.

In reply to jethro kiernan:

It is fraud. Before applying for the grant you needed to tick the boxes saying that more than one third of your income came from this business and it's your primary source of income.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

yes, I'd shop them.

In reply to Garygoretex:

Then they shouldn't have taken it, a grant isn't forced on you, you have a choice. Our company didn't ask for one because we didn't need one, they could have had one but decided not to. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

In reply to Cobra_Head:

It is how most fraud is discovered by HMRC. A disgruntled employee or supplier or customers contacts HMRC and then they investigate. All you do is pick up the phone or do an online report.And you can stay annoymous.

Of course it could be perfectly legit what they are doing, and you will never know.

Here is the form for online fraud reporting on Covid

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/shortforms/form/TEH_IRF?_ga=2.81793759.81545...

I bet they are delaing with thousands of reports.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

It depends.

If someone was 'fraudulently' claiming because their business was f*cked by fallout from the pandemic but didn't meet the arbitrary criterion of the Tory schemes and it was the only way to stay in business then I wouldn't worry about it.  Plenty of self employed or working-from-home people with no business rates got nothing and were just as f*cked as bricks and mortar businesses who were not able to work because customers stopped buying to hoard their own cash.

If some chancing git who wasn't affected at all wanted to rip off some money then I'd have no problem reporting them.

In reply to neilh:

We're currently dealing with lots of posts telling us we can claim R&D tax benefits, useful if you're doing lots of R&D, or if you say you're doing lots of R&D and want to claim tax credits.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who don't mind getting money for nothing, more often than not the people who bemoan "scroungers".

In reply to Cobra_Head:

The R & D tax benefit scheme is totally weird, for a software company like ours it's bureaucracy gone mad.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Best thing to do is to ring the HMRC helpline on r and d tax credits. They are incredibly helpful as its a small specialist team.They do not understand why people bother with consultants.My contact there said it made a change to speak direct to claimants and advised me exactly what to do.

Can be useful for software ( I know people who have made good claims).

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

>businesses who were not able to work because customers stopped buying to hoard their own cash.
 

Really?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Interesting point, however I should point out that it was the Scottish government who set the arbitrary criteria of primary income, one third and 140 days minimum. Also in Scotland the grants had to be claimed whereas many councils in England were handing out the grant without the need to apply. In England it didn't even need to be your main income. The SNP government gave SC owners many hoops to jump through just the receive this grant.

Can you now say it...... didn't meet the arbitrary criterion of the SNP schemes and it was the only way to stay in business then I wouldn't worry about it. 

Initially self catering owners in Scotland were told they would not revive the grant and at the same time English counterparts were being handed £10,000.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

Hillarious.Excellent and well informed.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

Which grant was that for?

In reply to Cobra_Head:

You’ve just entered a pandemic of biblical proportions not knowing if and when you’ll ever work again, and the government, famous for take take take extends down a hand with a £10,000 grant, more money than you’ve ever seen in your life. Rent, sorted. Food and bills. Sorted. Buy that new bit of kit for your business idea that you’ve never been able to afford or a car so you can get A better job? Sorted. Depression and worry, causing illness, subsided for now. 
 

To suggest that someone in a position of economic uncertainty would choose to decline the grant because of the small print, is quite frankly laughable. 
 

Its cheaper to pay your population to maintain as they are, than to not do so and attempt to clear up the mess afterwards. I learnt that in this forum when a number of users pre-empted the handouts.

In reply to neilh:

I'm a co-owner of an R&D tax advisory firm. Unfortunately, the good old days of HMRC's small specialist teams dotted around the country (there were seven of them for many years) are gone. The small teams have moved to a centralised system and the standard of advice and knowledge is much lower than it used to be. Many of the old inspectors who dealt with the legislation during the early claims 'boom' (2009-2014 ish) have either retired or taken up roles advising on R&D tax in the private sector (where, inevitably, there is more money to be earned).

The current state of the R&D tax advisory market is very poor. So many firms making a quick buck by submitting spurious claims that slip through the net due to HMRC not having adequate resource to review all claims. My firm effectively competes against unregulated cowboys. I've specialised solely in the relief since 2009 and the advisory market has never been in a worse state. 

In reply to Axel Smeets:

All I can say is that post 2014 I have found them very helpful to the point of being ridiculous.But I own an engineering firm ( and easier to identify etc)and it will be simplier than say software where no doubt your expertise is helpful.

You operate in an overcrowded market place, you have my sympathy.

In reply to neilh:

As a software company, I can't help feeling that either ALL our work is R & D - after all, we're always creating something that has never existed previously - or NONE of it is - we're using standard tools and technologies to create our solutions. I spent a lot of very frustrating time describing our work in a way that will fit in with HMRCs guidelines.

In reply to neilh:

I must admit, my preferred clients are engineering/manufacturing ones. Much easier to assemble a claim and communicate the technology to HMRC.. I've not come across any adviser who prefers working with software companies! Unsurprisingly, software claims are the ones we see being enquired into more than any other sector. 

And yes, the marketplace is very crowded right now. Reputation counts for a lot - fortunately we've been at it for a long time so we've built up a lot of trust over the years with clients and accountants. Wouldn't want to be starting out now. 

In reply to Le Sapeur:

The Scottish Government tinkers round the edges of English schemes.  It can't do anything radically different because its budget is controlled by England and it can't afford to set up regulatory arbitrage opportunities.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

The only different thing the Scottish government did was make the grant more difficult to receive. This has got nothing to do with England. Here we have a grant that was being handed out in England while in Scotland people had to jump through hoops just to apply for it. 

In reply to Le Sapeur:

Potentially £3.5bn fraud or error just on furlough payments. 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54066815

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Here's an example.

Scotsman A. Earns £12,000 as a labourer/crofter. Rents out a cottage on his croft and earns another £8,000 per year. Not eligible for grant.

Englishwoman B. Earns £12,000 as a small scale farmer. Rents out a cottage on her croft and earns another £8,000 per year. Eligible for grant.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Just saw that.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Pedantic correction, it is controlled by the United Kingdom.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

The Tories love giving money to landowners and landlords, the SNP not so much.  There will be some other category that get a slightly better deal in Scotland because they aren't giving so much money to landlords. 

It's a zero-sum game until Scotland gets independence and can make the big decisions for itself.

In reply to neilh:

It's controlled by England.  Scotland voted overwhelmingly against the Tories and England put them in power.  Scotland has *zero* influence in Westminster.  It is the English parliament.  They even stuff committees about Scotland with English Tories. 

In reply to Le Sapeur:

I think that also the Scottish grant was only available 1 per business, so TCA only got 1 grant in Scotland despite having more than one premises. In England they got 1 grant per premises ie 2 grants.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

Well we have  fraudulent government, why not just do as those at the top do?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

It’s the U.K. Government whether you like it or not. 

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Did they not qualify for the small business support grant?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

 Then it’s a race to the bottom?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

To clarify.
You don't know if such a scheme actually exists, but because it's Scotland, it must exist and must obviously be better than the one in England.
Is that correct?
 

In reply to FactorXXX:

The total amount of money being spent is the same.   The amount of money Scotland has to spend is determined by how much was spent in England.   Therefore, if one category are getting less in Scotland then there will be another category getting more.

I am quite happy if the Scottish government uses factors other than the value of buildings a business owns to determine the funding.

In reply to wintertree:

England is the one racing to the bottom.

Scotland will be headed back into the EU after independence.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Well done on the ant-Tory rant. How about answering the question? Why did the SNP government make Scottish self catering owners jump through hoops when in England they didn't?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

What utter xenophobic nonsense. Just imagine you said this....

It's controlled by Blacks.  Whites voted overwhelmingly against the Tories and the blacks put them in power.  Whites have *zero* influence over the blacks.  It is the Black parliament.  They even stuff committees about whites with blacks. 

Tom in Edinburgh, you are the worst of what Scotland has to offer. Xenophopic, racist, angry, anti everything, especially England. Please stop hijacking threads with your anti English rants and stop assuming everyone south of the border votes Tory. I'm Scottish and you are an embarrassment.

In reply to Le Sapeur:

If he has stated this, it would be factually incorrect, however what he has said is all correct as far as I can tell.