Sink holes

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mick taylor 23 Nov 2020

These two beauties have appeared. Same place as a much bigger one 12 months ago. But one of them is very odd:  water gushing out at some force. Can’t see why there would even be a main water supply as it’s in countryside and not a natural route to anywhere. My mate reported it to UU last Thursday - they said natural water run off. I doubt that coz it’s at the highest point in the area. My theory is either: 1) some old water pipe from coal mining or 2) water spurting from deep down, under pressure (mining related). There did appear to be a sulphur smell. I reported to env health at council. 


 Red Rover 23 Nov 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Might be worth posting on ukcaving! 

mick taylor 23 Nov 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

I believe a jogger nearly made the first descent yesterday evening - true. 

 wintertree 23 Nov 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Get a water sample and a pool chemical testing kit off Amazon for under a tenner and see if it’s chlorinated...

If it’s not, it could be an artesian well.  You’d want to speak to a local geologist / hydrologist...

 Lankyman 23 Nov 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

The leaves in the first photo look very pale. Are they coated with anything such as lime scale? I don't know of any limestone anywhere near Wigan but it could be from tap water if it's very hard. If I was still a caver I'd come and see!

 mack 23 Nov 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

> There did appear to be a sulphur smell. 

Uh oh, you need to call Pierce Brosnan or Tommy Lee Jones. They'll know how to handle it  😁

mick taylor 23 Nov 2020
In reply to wintertree:

Good idea about water samples. Just heard they’ve fenced it off but still might go and have a look to see if I can get some. 

mick taylor 23 Nov 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

> The leaves in the first photo look very pale. Are they coated with anything such as lime scale? I don't know of any limestone anywhere near Wigan but it could be from tap water if it's very hard. If I was still a caver I'd come and see!

Let’s do it! I’m a retired caver so our joint skill should be fine. You go first tho. 

 Phil79 23 Nov 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Could be mining related, collapsed adits or shafts can cause pretty drastic changes in groundwater level and flow in mine workings. 

Although, that photo looks like its spraying from something linear (?), so a pipe seems obvious answer?

mick taylor 23 Nov 2020
In reply to Phil79:

> Although, that photo looks like its spraying from something linear (?), so a pipe seems obvious answer?

It does, but it would make no sense having a pipe there in the first place. The fence is the edge of a small wood, beyond which is fields. 

In reply to mick taylor:

If it’s Artesian water watch out if getting too close as it can be under very high pressure. Years ago there was seepage water investigated in a wood near me and a hole drilled down to investigate. That lead to an increase of water so they stopped drilling at the stage of the water gushing out the 4 ins hole to a height of a couple of metres. It was left to see what happen and it ran full bore for 10 days before the company involved decided to concrete cap it and leave it to seep as it did before.

There are a few sink holes to be found around the countryside near me due to extensive old mining below. Last twice I’ve seen are at the edges of roads, one being 4 L x 3 W x 2m D!

 Phil79 23 Nov 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

You'd be surprised where pipes and other utilities run, not always obvious. 

We are involved in a lot of Ground Investigation work, and often you think "can't possibly be any services here?", until you check utility records or get the CAT scan out....

 Phil79 23 Nov 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

There also a fair bit of freely available info around which give some clues.

Geology mapping:

https://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html

Soluble rock dataset:

https://www.bgs.ac.uk/datasets/bgs-geosure-soluble-rocks/

Although, if this is Wigan area then mining seems more likely? Not really an area I know or have worked in myself....

Mining entries, areas of shallow working, etc can be found here:

https://mapapps2.bgs.ac.uk/coalauthority/home.html

 Red Rover 23 Nov 2020
In reply to Phil79:

Not all mines are recorded though as in some areas there can be a mess of old mines from before records were kept.

 Phil79 23 Nov 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

Yep, records are sketchy at best, and lots of stuff predates records, especially shallow surface workings, bell pits and the like. 

Good starting point though.

mick taylor 23 Nov 2020
In reply to Phil79:

Thanks for that. Just searched it: a mine entrance a few metres away! 

 dread-i 23 Nov 2020
In reply to Phil79:

Looking at that coal authority map, make me scared to run over the moors!

There are some surface marked and capped off mines near me, which is all well and good. What worries me is if some were decommissioned hundreds of years ago, covered with logs, which have then rotted. 

OP: Looking at the map for Wigan. I wouldn't jump up and down, if I were you.

mick taylor 23 Nov 2020
In reply to dread-i:

When we bought our house, the mining survey said: ‘150 ish mine workings within a mile radius’. Think it may have been more, and in less of a radius. Makes no odds, coz it’s loads either way. 
Lots of them would have been very small, single handed jobs. I was told the phrase ‘Wooley Back’ comes from when miners wore a sheep’s fleece on their back, so they could lie on their back in a narrow mine and swing a pick two handed. When u think about, you couldn’t do this when in a crawling position. However, I have it on good authority the phrase is used to describe people from St Helens who ‘liked’ sheep a bit too much. 


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