UKH

/ Serena Williams

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Yanis Nayu - on 10 Sep 2018

Having been correctly penalised for receiving illicit coaching during a match, got another penalty for smashing a racket and then another for giving the calm, measured and correct umpire a long and sustained tirade of abuse, she then accused him of sexism, which guaranteed her unthinking support from a whole tranche of people who don’t even look at the facts. The same umpire is known for applying the letter of the law to both male and female players.  SW has on several occasions dished out vile abuse to officials (including threatening to ram a ball down a female official’s throat, and telling another that she was ugly in the inside), and always when in a losing position. She ruined the winner’s day (she ended up apologising for winning while in tears) and has used her power and influence to bully and hector an official who apparently got paid $450 for the match. She told him he would never appear on “one of her courts” again. 

How does she come out of this episode of utterly shameful behaviour being supported by people? I can understand cutting her a bit of slack, but she is being raised to sainthood in some quarters. I just don’t get it.

 

6
Greenbanks - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Neither do I. Maybe there'd be a bigger fuss made if it were a footballer who'd been dishing it out to a ref?

Trangia on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I agree. Utterly shameful, disgraceful and unsporting behaviour.

4
hbeevers on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I felt for Osaka. Her Idol ruined her first grand slam win by throwing a hissy fit...

1
Mr Fuller on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I can't imagine how annoyed she'll be if tennis ever get their act together on doping and actually test her in a meaningful way.

16
profitofdoom on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> Having been correctly penalised.....

It's an absolute racket

john arran - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to profitofdoom:

> It's an absolute racket

She got what she de-served.

1
Yanis Nayu - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to john arran:

What the deuce?!

Wiley Coyote2 - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Try calling a Rugby Union ref a liar and a thief and you'd be out for the rest of the season

1
Luke90 on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Mr Fuller:

Is that insinuation based on any actual evidence?

2
John W - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

She was a bloody disgrace and deserves a lengthy ban, never mind a pathetic little fine. She managed to play the sexism card and mother card simultaneously - if she’d gone for the race card as well, it would have been a Grand Slam. I sincerely hopes she takes a good long look at her behaviour and realised what a complete arsehole she made of herself. As for the reaction of the (American) spectators - beyond belief.

8
profitofdoom on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to john arran:

> She got what she de-served.

She could net quite a lot from it though

1
Weekend Punter on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Luke90:

I'm not sure whether there was an insinuation?

The point is that giving an athlete at least 12 hours notice of an out of competition test is not an effective anti doping measure with the alternative bringing even more inconvenience.

1
Tyler - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to John W:

> if she’d gone for the race card as well, it would have been a Grand Slam. 

Despite having been subjected to continued racism during her career from outside commentators she didn't bring up the subject of race, yet you did. I wonder why?

 

 

Post edited at 20:41
47
plyometrics - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to profitofdoom:

I reckon she’ll end up going to court...

2
JoshOvki on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I guess if she didn't see the hand signal from the coach then she probably thought she hadn't been coached and thought she was being unfairly treated. After that first instance of being hard done by the second might have pushed her over the edge. Not defending HOW she reacted but could be a reason for why.

2
BnB - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Well put. I could almost have forgiven her tantrum if she had demonstrated the conscience and grace to apologise unreservedly for her outbursts. Instead she chose to deflect and defend her behaviour by playing identity politics. Serena hopes to be regarded as the greatest champion of all time (although certainly not the most accomplished tennis player by a wider rule) and she would do well to reflect that champions are cherished for more than their will to win. 

3
profitofdoom on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to plyometrics:

> I reckon she’ll end up going to court...

Where she'll have to use a backhander

2
ClimberEd - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I hope they go after her the way they went after Lance.

1
Kipper - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> .... She told him he would never appear on “one of her courts” again. 

The BBC commentator altered this to suggest she'd said he wouldn't umpire her on court again, I think the umpire missed a trick by not asking her how many she had (probably a few).

 

Dave the Rave on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to profitofdoom:

> Where she'll have to use a backhander

She will put some spin on it

2
profitofdoom on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> She will put some spin on it

And she'll certainly bounce back

2
Dave the Rave on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to profitofdoom:

> And she'll certainly bounce back

I’m sure she will rally round

2
Mr Fuller on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Luke90:

That tennis has laughable anti-doping regulations? Yes, the evidence is everywhere. As for any other insinuations, they are covered very well here https://www.quora.com/Is-Serena-Williams-on-steroids and in other places online. 

In a sport where huge advantages are gained from doping, there is no meaningful anti--doping regulation, and we have the most dominant athlete possibly of any sport of the last twenty years it makes sense to at least think about things. Do I know if she is doping? No. But I do know that any investigation would make her more irate than merely being told she has broken a rule on the court. 

1
profitofdoom on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> I’m sure she will rally round

Good call. But maybe she's met her match

2
Dave the Rave on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to profitofdoom:

> Good call. But maybe she's met her match

Let’s ask the line judge. Or perhaps not....

profitofdoom on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> Let’s ask the line judge.

OK - they're usually generous to a fault

2
Pursued by a bear - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> Let’s ask the line judge. 

Back to the issue of drug testing we go...

T.

 

Tyler - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Mr Fuller:

> As for any other insinuations, they are covered very well here https://www.quora.com/Is-Serena-Williams-on-steroids and in other places online. 

So in answer to Luke's questions, the answer is no you don't have any evidence. 

> Do I know if she is doping? No. But I do know that any investigation would make her more irate than merely being told she has broken a rule on the court. 

If she's not doping why would it?

3
mountainbagger - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

> Back to the issue of drug testing we go...

> T.

We're just trying to inject a little humour, nothing else.

1
goldmember - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

At least. Amazed and disappointed that tennis authorities have sided with her terrible message for youngsters coming up the ranks

2
John W - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to BnB:

> she would do well to reflect that champions are cherished for more than their will to win. 

I wish someone would send her the images from the cricket today - a true champion, a true gentleman, a true great of the game, and a true sportsman having his hand shaken and applauded by every single member of the opposing team, and being given a standing ovation by both sets of supporters. The contrast could not be more marked.

 

3
Dave the Rave on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to profitofdoom:

They will let her off.

RomTheBear on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to BnB:

> Well put. I could almost have forgiven her tantrum if she had demonstrated the conscience and grace to apologise unreservedly for her outbursts. Instead she chose to deflect and defend her behaviour by playing identity politics. Serena hopes to be regarded as the greatest champion of all time (although certainly not the most accomplished tennis player by a wider rule) and she would do well to reflect that champions are cherished for more than their will to win. 

Although her behaviour was clearly not acceptable, I do find it strange the way she is suddenly being demonised by a lot of the press.

She's certainly not the first nor the last tennis player to have a go at the umpire. 

Post edited at 22:51
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BnB - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to goldmember:

> At least. Amazed and disappointed that tennis authorities have sided with her terrible message for youngsters coming up the ranks

To be fair, the ITF, which governs the sport has backed the umpire and is supportive of her fine. It’s the WTA, a commercial organisation, that has sided with its biggest draw. There is a long and fascinating history of sexual politics in tennis and the WTA has been at the forefront of many battles over equality, often to its credit. Serena has pushed the right buttons, but the backing reflects the WTA’s self-interest, not her rectitude.

1
Paul Hy - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

no doubt she'll have a ace up her sleeve.

1
John W - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to Tyler:

May I respectfully direct you to the thread about Basil D’Olivera - a man who suffered unbelievable racial prejudice in his chosen sport, yet who remained the consummate sportsman and gentleman. And Serena Williams thinks she has been unfairly treated...?

4
gazhbo - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

> Although her behaviour was clearly not acceptable, I do find it strange the way she is suddenly being demonised by a lot of the press.

> She's certainly not the first nor the last tennis player to have a go at the umpire. 

It’s the worst example I can think of of a high profile athlete demonstrating total contempt for the  officials.  She showed no respect at all for an opponent who has fairly publicly idolised her and ruined what should have been the greatest day of her career.

Even when given some opportunity to make amends after the match she still made it all about her.  It was disgraceful and it’s not the first time she’s done it.  

I find it strange the level to which some sections of the press are portraying her as a victim (in this incident).  This one in particular https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/serena-williams-black-woman-work-tennis-discrimination

3
Robert Durran - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

> She's certainly not the first nor the last tennis player to have a go at the umpire. 

Of course not. I think the issue is whether she is being treated any differently, as she claimed, because she is a woman. It would be interesting to see whether the evidence is on here side or not.

 

Tyler - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to John W:

> May I respectfully direct you to the thread about Basil D’Olivera - a man who suffered unbelievable racial prejudice in his chosen sport, yet who remained the consummate sportsman and gentleman.

What, you mean she should just suck it up? Anyway, that's entirely besides the point, Serena *wasn't* making it an issue about race in any way but you saw fit bring up the issue of race in a way that implied she uses race as some sort of get out of jail free card. You concocted a picture of someone who habitually plays the race card to get out of bother and in doing so betrayed the fact that, when it comes to the Williams sisters, they are singled out. It might not be overt, it might not be deliberate but it's there if not on this side of the Atlantic then, increasingly, on the other.

> And Serena Williams thinks she has been unfairly treated...?

As do the WTA association, Billie Jean King and many others. As someone who watched live (on telly, obvs) I thought she was out of order, she behaved petulantly and rudely and deserved censure but I find it strange that she has dominated the sport for 16 years, been written off time and again, faced abuse at every turn, come back from giving birth and a life threatening illness a year ago to reach the pinnacle of the sport (an individual sport, not a team sport where you can be used sparingly for half a match or moved back to midfield etc.) at the age of 36 and it would not have merited a murmur on here but the moment she behaves badly UKC turns into a hot bed of tennis fans appalled at behaviour they would not have seen if it hadn't been sensationalised in the media.

Yes she behaved badly and someone above cited rugby as an example of the sort of behaviour she should aspire to, but have any of you started a thread calling Bastareaud an arsehole for his behaviour yesterday? Yes, maybe you should send her footage of Alistair Cook's send off (you don't think Serena's peers will be just as respectful of her when she retires?) on the other hand you could send her the CCTV from Stokes night out. Yes she behaved badly but sports people do and her behaviour off court is pretty exemplary and, taken across 16 years in the spotlight, her on court rap sheet is no worse than most.

Finally, on the subject of spoiling her opponents day, Serena hugged her straight away, paid her all due respect at the end etc. etc., I imagine her day is far from ruined.

PS. I would point out that she has been suffering post natal depression but but I expect that sort of victimhood would be given short shrift.....

25
Tyler - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to BnB:

> she would do well to reflect that champions are cherished for more than their will to win. 

She just needs to wait it out, doesn't seem to have done McEnroe any harm. 

 

1
Tyler - on 10 Sep 2018
In reply to gazhbo:

> It’s the worst example I can think of of a high profile athlete demonstrating total contempt for the  officials.  

Yeah totally, as long as you ignore virtually every football match ever.

> She showed no respect at all for an opponent who has fairly publicly idolised her and ruined what should have been the greatest day of her career.

Ruined? Did you watch to the end of the match?

> Even when given some opportunity to make amends after the match she still made it all about her.  It was disgraceful and it’s not the first time she’s done it.  

Yeah, she does this every time! This is at least the third time since 2002

> I find it strange the level to which some sections of the press are portraying her as a victim (in this incident).  This one in particular https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/serena-williams-black-woman-work-tennis-discrimination

I find it strange that of all the things to say about Serena Williams this is what has got everyone animated.

 

8
RomTheBear on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Of course not. I think the issue is whether she is being treated any differently, as she claimed, because she is a woman. It would be interesting to see whether the evidence is on here side or not.

I am not sure why this is particularly noteworthy what half arsed excuse she gave, whether justified or not.

We are just talking about someone having a go at the referee, it's not exactly uncommon and most of the time it's not even news.

Just because she made some half arsed gender argument, anybody with an axe to grind jumped on the occasion to make a political argument, but if you take a rational look at the facts, nothing really unusual or noteworthy happened to justify all the hatred and hysteria around this.

Post edited at 03:49
2
Yanis Nayu - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to JoshOvki:

> I guess if she didn't see the hand signal from the coach then she probably thought she hadn't been coached and thought she was being unfairly treated. After that first instance of being hard done by the second might have pushed her over the edge. Not defending HOW she reacted but could be a reason for why.

I agree, which is why I wouldn’t go over the top criticising her, were it not for her reaction to it all, and the way she’s cynically tried to make it into a sexism issue. I think, in reply to someone elses’s point on the thread, that’s why she’s been so criticised by some commentators. If she apologised now, after a few days to reflect, I’d have a lot of time for her. 

I do wonder though, if she’s so famously not interested in on-court coaching, why her coach of many years was coaching her while she was on court...

 

1
Yanis Nayu - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

> I am not sure why this is particularly noteworthy what half arsed excuse she gave, whether justified or not.

> We are just talking about someone having a go at the referee, it's not exactly uncommon and most of the time it's not even news.

> Just because she made some half arsed gender argument, anybody with an axe to grind jumped on the occasion to make a political argument, but if you take a rational look at the facts, nothing really unusual or noteworthy happened to justify all the hatred and hysteria around this.

Again, I agree, but it’s this phenomenon that interests me. People have jumped on-side with her in such a blind, unthinking, partisan way and the facts aren’t allowed to stand in the way. It’s like a reflection of our current politics. 

Dave Kerr - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> How does she come out of this episode of utterly shameful behaviour being supported by people? I can understand cutting her a bit of slack, but she is being raised to sainthood in some quarters. I just don’t get it.

Sexism is an emotive issue and for some that overrides rationality. At best there's no hard evidence that this umpire is biased which isn't to say bias doesn't exist but that the current outrage is unjustified.

Throw in a bit of confirmation bias / argumentum ad populam (just look at all the prominent people agreeing with Serena, it must be true!) and the fact that saying something isn't sexist can make you look like part of the problem and you've got the perfect mix for an entrenched position.

Ironically, I think this is harmful to the cause of sexism in sport as it divides those who are against it and gifts a weapon to those who wish to maintain the status quo ('you guys will claim anything is sexism, where's it all going to end?!')

 

Post edited at 07:17
birdie num num - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu

> How does she come out of this episode of utterly shameful behaviour being supported by people? 

It's because of her big tits

7
Babika - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Of course not. I think the issue is whether she is being treated any differently, as she claimed, because she is a woman. It would be interesting to see whether the evidence is on here side or not.


That is really the only thing I'm interested in - grounded evidence based on umpire decisions for on-court coaching, racket abuse and verbal abuse for men v women. 

If it is true then she has a point. If not, get lost.

People are mentioning the saintly behaviour of men in other sports but did you see that motorcyclist? Grabbed the brake of his opponent at speed and received a 2 race ban, WTF? Should have been a life ban. Sport is pretty weird in terms of penalties and the approach to bad behaviour.

Mr Fuller on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Tyler:

I don't have evidence, no. I've never met the woman or indeed drug tested her. I similarly had no evidence that Lance Armstrong or Marian Jones had doped.

As for why she'd be irate- she has repeatedly criticised anti-doping for going after her in recent times even as a clean athlete. I can imagine an actual investigation might be a little more demanding than a couple of out of comp drug tests.

My point is that if the dominance of Williams were shown in most other sports with a similar level of physicality then questions over drugs would be asked. Not accusations, just ''why is she so good?' Since the OP correctly pointed out that Williams is not exactly perfect I thought I'd put the boot in too.

7
GrahamD - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Paul Hy:

> no doubt she'll have a ace up her sleeve.

She was definitely at fault when she crossed the line.

TheDrunkenBakers - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Babika:

> That is really the only thing I'm interested in - grounded evidence based on umpire decisions for on-court coaching, racket abuse and verbal abuse for men v women. 

I think this is irrelevant.  You would need to look at whether this particular umpire has a history of leniency against men and using the letter of the law for women.  If this is the case then she may have grounds for complaint but if he is strict for both sexes then she really has to wind her neck in.  

> If it is true then she has a point. If not, get lost.

> People are mentioning the saintly behaviour of men in other sports but did you see that motorcyclist? Grabbed the brake of his opponent at speed and received a 2 race ban, WTF? Should have been a life ban. Sport is pretty weird in terms of penalties and the approach to bad behaviour.

On the contrary, men have been given a bit of a bashing, especially footballers.  In my view, all sportspeople should have greater respect of the officials and should be penalised the second that they aren't.  Footballers get away with murder in my opinion and that area needs stamping out and rightly or wrongly tennis players are held in higher regards where court conduct is concerned and she did nothing to move the feminist debate forward.  Serena was bang out of order, spoiled her own reputation, and destroyed the moment for a young talent who should have had a more appropriate experience on winning a grand slam.  Serena should publicly seek anger management, offer her services to young people with anger issues, FOC, and make an unquestioned apology to Naomi.  Her supporters should also look at themselves.  

Regarding the motorcyclist.  The rider has been fired from his existing team and has been dropped by his future team who he was set to join next year, with the president of MV Augusta (amongst others) publicly shaming him saying that his actions aren't befitting their brand and culture.  Many are saying he shouldnt ride again.  Seems like this future MotoGP talent has lost everything at the age of 22 for a very dangerous bit of sportsmanship.  What was going through his mind!!

Perhaps if sponsors started to take a more active role in policing the activities of their very well paid stars then things would change.  For instance, any drugs banned athlete should instantly lose all money and sponsorship, for ever.  Aggressive footballers should lose lucrative boot deals and promotional work.  Cheating of any type, including diving, should be met with harsher penalties.    

Post edited at 09:26
1
RomTheBear on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> Again, I agree, but it’s this phenomenon that interests me. People have jumped on-side with her in such a blind, unthinking, partisan way and the facts aren’t allowed to stand in the way. It’s like a reflection of our current politics

And the other way around too. Suddenly what was a banal incident seem to have stirred both blind hatred against her and adulation.

As you say, quite a reflection of poltics. People need to calm the f down a bit. 

 

 

ClimberEd - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I think this is irrelevant.  You would need to look at whether this particular umpire has a history of leniency against men and using the letter of the law for women.  If this is the case then she may have grounds for complaint but if he is strict for both sexes then she really has to wind her neck in.  

 

He is strict for both sexes. But perhaps stricter than other umpires

>   What was going through his mind!!

> .    

Apparently he says he suffers from 'impulsive behaviour' - well to my mind he shouldn't be in charge of a motorbike on a race track if he can't control these 'impulses'.

 

TheDrunkenBakers - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Mr Fuller:

> My point is that if the dominance of Williams were shown in most other sports with a similar level of physicality then questions over drugs would be asked. Not accusations, just ''why is she so good?' Since the OP correctly pointed out that Williams is not exactly perfect I thought I'd put the boot in too.

What about Usain Bolt, Mo Farah, Steve Redgrave at his best, Michael Johnson, Christiano Ronaldo.  OK, questions have been asked of Farah and his coaching staff but there are lots of examples of sports people who are so much better than their peers who have not been suspected of cheating.  

Whether Serena has doped or not, I dont think her dominance of the sport has been at the benefit of the casual observer nor benefited the ladies competition.  It has been boring beyond belief watching the women's game over the years where Serena has been concerned.  Contrast that to Nadal, Federer and Djokovic in the men's game with the addition of Murray until he git injured and you had a truly competitive sporting spectacle where each has to play at their best to win and that's what pushes sport forward and makes it interesting to watch.

 

1
krikoman - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to John W:

> May I respectfully direct you to the thread about Basil D’Olivera - a man who suffered unbelievable racial prejudice in his chosen sport, yet who remained the consummate sportsman and gentleman. And Serena Williams thinks she has been unfairly treated...?

aren't we supposed to have moved on from those years though?

I'm not saying she was right, but it's a bit of a strange thing to compare her to, maybe that's part of the issue.

Post edited at 09:39
1
TheDrunkenBakers - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

> He is strict for both sexes. But perhaps stricter than other umpires.

Then Im afraid she has no charge and needs to eat a tank sized humble pie.  If he is known for his strictness (which I have no issue with) then her and her coaching staff are at fault for no knowing this as a professional team. They should have prepared in advance.  Interestingly, why is Serena not as mad as hell with her coach.  Assuming she didnt see his actions, i would be f*cking livid to the point of sacking if he has cocked this up for her by trying to coach, which is strictly against the rules.It could be argued that he is the one who should get all the vitriol and not the umpire.

> Apparently he says he suffers from 'impulsive behaviour' - well to my mind he shouldn't be in charge of a motorbike on a race track if he can't control these 'impulses'.

Totally.  Im sure he will have plenty of time to think about his actions as he contemplates his career out of motorcycling and how he will now makes ends meet.  Reports are saying that he has a history of these 'impulses' so perhaps this was a near miss too far.

 

1
Xharlie on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

> She's certainly not the first nor the last tennis player to have a go at the umpire. 

I watched the match and she did not have only "a go" at the umpire. She started her attack right from the very first violation -- one for which she was not penalised in any way.

Not only did she argue with the umpire but she also resorted to manipulative and subversive strategies. She didn't play the race card but she definitely did bring sexism into the discussion and mention her status as a mother.

Sadly, those strategies appear to have worked because there is now a wave of outrage against sexism in tennis and she is profiting from that.

Sexism in tennis is a real problem and one that should be tackled. Serena's scene, on Saturday, has little to do with sexism and a lot to do with sportsmanship.

The issue of coaching in Grand Slam matches is also something that should be debated but both players (and their teams) walked onto the court knowing what the rules say. If the rule is a grey area because it is seldom enforced, that is a problem. Enforcing the rule according to the letter of the law is not.

First follow the rules; campaign to fix them later.

Post edited at 09:42
2
The Wild Scallion on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-45479954

More fallout .  Can't anybody be criticised for their poor behaviour .

I personally never had much interest in her as I don't follow tennis , however this behaviour and subsequent  playing of race and sex cards on the issue has made me hold a very dim view of her morals.

Playing race and sex cards on the issue has only damaged the people that genuinely campaign for such causes .

1
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to BnB:

This story has now turned on to the cartoon by Mark Knight (google his name and you will see the image) which was in the Australian press.

Anyone have a major problem with his caricature? The image didn't offend me remotely  (although admittedly I am not familiar with the history of Sambo cartoons.) Has he committed a terrible sin, or is that actually what she looks like in cartoon form?

 

3
Xharlie on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Interestingly, why is Serena not as mad as hell with her coach.  Assuming she didnt see his actions, i would be f*cking livid to the point of sacking if he has cocked this up for her by trying to coach, which is strictly against the rules.It could be argued that he is the one who should get all the vitriol and not the umpire.

I must say, I would have a LOT more respect for Serena if she had fired her coach from the podium or immediately after the match.

She did do one thing right: she asked the crowd to stop booing. I'll give her some respect for that because, at that point, booing was only hurting Osaka and making little impact on Serena and surely none on the coach.

Tyler - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I personally never had much interest in her as I don't follow tennis , however this behaviour and subsequent  playing of race and sex cards on the issue has made me hold a very dim view of her morals.

So you've no interest in her or the game but have decide to post on here berating her for something she didn't do ("playing the race card"). 

On the issue of the cartoon, I don't see it as particularly sexist or racist but I wonder at the attitude of so many people turning out to admonish Serenea's very occassional transgression but not her amazing achievements over the years. It's almost as if people want to give her a good kicking, why is that?  

Post edited at 10:05
7
galpinos on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Mr Fuller:

Having seen her in the flesh, I was surprised how "normal" she looked. The tv/media pictures always seem to emphasize bulging muscles but she just looked athletic.

 As to her physicality compared to other athletes, he training is well documented (and far in excess of most/all of her competitors, bar the likes of Sam Stosur). It's not surprising she's stronger than her opponents when the likes of Sharapova says things like, "I don't want to develop muscles as it will compromise my endorsement income".

However, in this instance, I think she is in the wrong. I do think sports women are judged differently than men* but in this case, she's picked the wrong fight. The evidence, for this umpire, will show he's a stickler for the rules (who else gives Nadal a time violation for all his bum picking/shirt tugging faff) and is generally harsh on everyone. I would imagine she's still hormonally labile, acted in the heat of the moment and would hope that after some reflection, she'll realise she's backed the wrong horse.

In spite of my last statement, I can't quite believe the kicking she seems to be taking. She is a sporting giant and I'm surprised by the number of people who appear to have been sharpening their knives, waiting for the moment to strike. 

* The recent example of Cornet's code violation and on a more personal level, having seen my wife carded at hockey for unladylike behaviour (swearing, not at the ref but at herself, having shanked a shot wide) and seen the same ref in a later men's match surrounded by male players shouting obsenitites at his decision and nothing was done, and that not being an isolated instance, means I know, in hockey at least, similar standards are not applied.

1
Xharlie on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> More fallout .  Can't anybody be criticised for their poor behaviour .

First impression: Osaka looks alarmingly pale in that cartoon. Did she see a ghost or something?

EDIT: By the way, she did NOT play the race card as far as I recall. She played the sexism card and the motherhood card but never the race card.

Post edited at 10:02
2
galpinos on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Interestingly, why is Serena not as mad as hell with her coach.  Assuming she didnt see his actions, i would be f*cking livid to the point of sacking if he has cocked this up for her by trying to coach, which is strictly against the rules. It could be argued that he is the one who should get all the vitriol and not the umpire.

I would imagine because it happens in pretty much every tennis match, men's or women's, and no-one is ever penalised so it's assumed it's illegal, but allowed. 

 

The Wild Scallion on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Tyler:

> So you've no interest in her or the game but have decide to post on here berating her for something she didn't do ("playing the race card"). 

Yeah I gave her a real terrible , horrible uncalled for  berating .

The issue is topical and in the news , and as such I read about it and formed my opinion on her actions.

> On he issue of the cartoon, I don't see it as particularly sexist or racist but I wonder at the attitude of so many people turning out to admonish Serenea's very occassional transgression but not her amazing achievements over the years. It's almost as if people want to give her a good kicking, why is that?  

Do you consider my post a good kicking for her ?

That's just plain silly . But knock yourself out I wont bother responding to you .

5
Dave Garnett - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to galpinos:

> I would imagine she's still hormonally labile

Shit, no.  Not the H word...

 

Tyler - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> Do you consider my post a good kicking for her ?

It's part of a whole, yes.

Robert Durran - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I think this is irrelevant.

Obviously it is highly relevant whether there is gender bias in umpiring - that is one of the two main issues (the other being the issue of having a go at the umpire).

> You would need to look at whether this particular umpire has a history of leniency against men and using the letter of the law for women.  If this is the case then she may have grounds for complaint but if he is strict for both sexes then she really has to wind her neck in.  

Precisely!

 

 

Tyler - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Dave Garnett:

If you consider the H word a non-issue I expect the PP phrase will cause similar eye rolling

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2018/aug/06/serena-williams-motherhood-tennis-post-partum

 

 

Robert Durran - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Regarding the motorcyclist.......

As cheating goes, I thought that was a really pretty cool thing to pull off at about 200mph!    

 

2
Dave Garnett - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Tyler:

> If you consider the H word a non-issue I expect the PP phrase will cause similar eye rolling

I don't think it's a non-issue, I just think (from experience) it's one of those words that can only be deployed safely by those to whom it applies! 

 

captain paranoia - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Maybe she didn't get a good night's sleep before the match.

Maybe she needs a better mattress...

TheDrunkenBakers - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> As cheating goes, I thought that was a really pretty cool thing to pull off at about 200mph!    

Agreed.  I was gobsmacked when i saw it both how he did it in the heat of a race and how the other rider stayed on the bike.  I think it was more 135mph but having ridden a bike to those speeds, things certainly pass you by quickly.

Much more exciting than ruffing up a cricket ball, for sure.

1
pasbury on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

> This story has now turned on to the cartoon by Mark Knight (google his name and you will see the image) which was in the Australian press.

> Anyone have a major problem with his caricature? The image didn't offend me remotely  (although admittedly I am not familiar with the history of Sambo cartoons.) Has he committed a terrible sin, or is that actually what she looks like in cartoon form?


I think as a caricature it is at least partially a caricature of race and not just an individual, e.g. the exaggerated lips and top knot.

She doesn't look like anything in cartoon form! It's up to the 'artist' to draw her as he sees.

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to pasbury:

I think if you showed that picture to most people they would recognise her straight away. A cartoonist usually exaggerates a persons features for comic effect. Do you think it would be possible to draw a caricature of her having a meltdown without causing any offence ?

1
Tringa on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

> This story has now turned on to the cartoon by Mark Knight (google his name and you will see the image) which was in the Australian press.

> Anyone have a major problem with his caricature? The image didn't offend me remotely  (although admittedly I am not familiar with the history of Sambo cartoons.) Has he committed a terrible sin, or is that actually what she looks like in cartoon form?

 

It seems so people have decided because Serena Williams is black and the cartoon has exaggerated her features then it must be racist.

Have they never seen a political cartoon? It is part an parcel of the cartoonists trade, and has been for probably a couple of hundred years, to increase a person's features or mannerisms to (a) draw attention, (b) make a point, and (c) poke a bit of fun.

Dave

1
ablackett - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

What got me about this was the way she let the warning affect her game and subsequently fell apart.  Looking at how Dave Brailsford has changed cycling with his approach of playing the current situation, regardless of how the goal posts change and psychological management I was shocked that SW let the warning get to her.

If she had just let it slide over her, discussed it via the proper channels after the game she might have gone onto win, but as it was she totally fell apart.

Considering the balance of opinion on here that she was bang out of order, I too find it very surprising that the balance of media opinion seems to be in support of her.

Xharlie on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I recognised Serena straight away. If anyone has any right to complain about their depiction in that cartoon, it's Osaka.

On the balance of things, I find the cartoon to be tasteless and out of line but hardly worth nailing the cartoonist to an International pillory.

Unfortunately, his cartoon, its stereotypes and its apparent "white-washing" of Osaka have brought race into the picture when this issue was NEVER about race. So now we have an incident about sexism, motherhood, biased umpires, flexible rules AND race.

Is it possible for anyone to be right or wrong?

galpinos on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to ablackett:

> What got me about this was the way she let the warning affect her game and subsequently fell apart.  Looking at how Dave Brailsford has changed cycling with his approach of playing the current situation, regardless of how the goal posts change and psychological management I was shocked that SW let the warning get to her.

> If she had just let it slide over her, discussed it via the proper channels after the game she might have gone onto win, but as it was she totally fell apart.

Really? She's getting old, she can feel she's not the player she was, her powers are waning, she's chasing the one last slam that feels like it's getting evermore unlikely, Osaka battered her in Indian Wells, it's easy to see her losing her demeanor.

 

MarkJH - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

> ...its apparent "white-washing" of Osaka have brought race into the picture when this issue was NEVER about race.

 

I had heard people say this too, and couldn't quite see it myself.  I downloaded the cartoon into some image analysis software and when you look at the regions representing the two players there is almost no difference in the tones used, and the hue is also nearly identical.  There is a bit more definition to the Williams character, but she is the subject.  Perhaps a case of seeing what you want to, or maybe the fact that only Williams is shown in caricature affects the perception.

3
Blue Straggler - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Naomi was serener 

Blue Straggler - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

I also noticed that Serena's skin in the cartoon is relatively pale. It is indeed interesting that people are crying that Osaka has been portrayed as a white woman with blonde hair. 
Yes, she is half-Haitian and really noticeably dark-skinned compared to the common Western perception/preconception of Japanese. And perhaps the cartoon doesn't pick up on that - but then that's not its purpose. As for the "blonde hair", I have not seen Osaka in action and I don't know what the lighting was like at the US Open but she seems to have highlights in her hair which can catch the light and look rather golden...e.g.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Naomi_Osaka_%2827849809747%29.jpg/220px-Naomi_Osaka_%2827849809747%29.jpg

2
tom_in_edinburgh - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Of course not. I think the issue is whether she is being treated any differently, as she claimed, because she is a woman. It would be interesting to see whether the evidence is on here side or not.

I'm not even sure that it is a problem if there is a different standard in the women's game from the men's game.    Maybe there is a difference in the level at which umpires intervene because the majority of women players prefer an environment where swearing and racket smashing is not tolerated.    

5
Pan Ron - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

> ... when this issue was NEVER about race.

The Guardian (and others I think) published op-eds when the whole Serena furore broke, predictably pointing to racism as well as sexism.  The same bunch of eternally-offended souls made this about race as soon as they could.

 

1
Moley on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Serena's gripe seems to be that men can get away with worse behaviour on the court than women.

She could have taken the attitude of not lowering her own behaviour down to those of men, instead she chose to behave badly and then complain. Not exactly making any attempt to raise female standards or set a better example than male players.

6
TheDrunkenBakers - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Moley:

Have a like from me.

 

1
Coel Hellier - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Moley:

> Serena's gripe seems to be that men can get away with worse behaviour on the court than women.

Can anyone point me to some videos of males behaving as bad or worse and not getting penalised? 

(Genuine question; I'm not a major follower of tennis these days.)

Tringa on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to JoshOvki:

> I guess if she didn't see the hand signal from the coach then she probably thought she hadn't been coached and thought she was being unfairly treated. After that first instance of being hard done by the second might have pushed her over the edge. Not defending HOW she reacted but could be a reason for why.


You could be right but as you say it does not excuse the way she reacted.

If this is the case then I hope she had as strong a word with her coach and tell him in no uncertain terms what a bloody idiot he was.

Dave 

2
pasbury on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Moley:

I think you have just written the dictionary definition of ‘double standard’.

Yanis Nayu - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Coel Hellier:

People are currently trying to analyse that beyond simply providing the odd example of where a man got treated more favourably than SW.  I think the stats point to men getting something like 2 to 2.5 times more code violations than women, but not sure that they’ve analysed whether they’re 2-2.5 times more naughty yet. It does appear though that *if* there is a difference that negatively affects women it’s pretty marginal, and there is plenty of evidence of consistency across the sexes with the umpire in question.

1
captain paranoia - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

> well to my mind he shouldn't be in charge of a motorbike on a race track

He shouldn't be on the road if he can't control those impulses, never mind the track...

1
Tringa on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> People are currently trying to analyse that beyond simply providing the odd example of where a man got treated more favourably than SW.  I think the stats point to men getting something like 2 to 2.5 times more code violations than women, but not sure that they’ve analysed whether they’re 2-2.5 times more naughty yet. It does appear though that *if* there is a difference that negatively affects women it’s pretty marginal, and there is plenty of evidence of consistency across the sexes with the umpire in question.


The other point is the code violations for both men and women are from a number of umpires, and each umpire deals with violations as he/she sees fit, while hopefully staying within the rules.

What would be more interesting and more relevant to see is how this particular umpire has dealt with code violations in the past.

 

Dave

JoshOvki on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Tringa:

I don't disagree with you at all mate, like I said [typed?]

> Not defending HOW she reacted but could be a reason for why.

pec on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

An interesting piece from the umpires perspective who have to put up with this sh*t from prima donnas who should know better.

https://uk.yahoo.com/sports/news/tennis-umpires-consider-forming-union-135653064.html

In most other sports they'd be sent off the pitch for that sort of outburts at a referee whether they are in the right or not.

3
Yanis Nayu - on 11 Sep 2018
Yanis Nayu - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to pec:

Yeah, I’d read that elsewhere. Seems like tennis authorities are less interested in the integrity of the game and more interested in keeping the goose laying the golden eggs. 

pec on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> Yeah, I’d read that elsewhere. Seems like tennis authorities are less interested in the integrity of the game and more interested in keeping the goose laying the golden eggs. 


Hence the lax drug testing regime perhaps?

1
idiotproof (Buxton MC) - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Moley:

> She could have taken the attitude of not lowering her own behaviour down to those of men, instead she chose to behave badly and then complain. 

Thats my point... should she have been penalised for all those things... yes (admittedly i think the 'coaching' rule does need changing but until that happens you should get penalised)

was her behavoliour digraceful and bullying to the umpire and deserving of a warning then a  game deduction...yes 

Do male players seem to get away with contunued griping at the umpires more often than female players... i would say from a watchers perspective with no evidence but my recollection, yes it seems they do. 

This should not be a call for the female players to be allowed to display more bad beahviour but for this to be cracked down on in all codes.   Without refs, umpires, line judges... these games dont occur... especially in tje lower leagues, amateur games. The professional games should lead from the front not drag the whole lot down

Post edited at 22:54
I like climbing - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Anyone on here watch the whole match ?

 

Post edited at 23:43
Jim C - on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to JoshOvki:

A coach does not just sit constantly making hand signals in front of everyone if their players are looking elsewhere, they first make eye contact, then they give the signal. That is what happened here. 

She is just an entitled diva. I feel sorry for her opponent. 

 

2
Jim C - on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to pec:

They should not fine her, they should make her wear outfits that makes her look stupid

( but then she does that herself 

8
Xharlie on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to I like climbing:

I did. Yes.

On the topic of drug-testing: a colleague of mine plays underwater rugby. He is obliged to be available for testing at any time, at home or at work, with no notice, whatsoever. The testers just show up at his house and there's no negotiation. Of course, not being famous and living in Germany -- a safe country -- nobody has a safe-room to hide in but, because he's clean, he wouldn't need one anyway and complies. It is an inconvenience but not a big one and he tells me he's quite prepared to pay that price if it means that he's competing on an even playing field.

His passion is his sport. Effective drug testing is good for the health of the sport.

With doping being rife, I cannot understand why this isn't a ubiquitous policy in all sport above a certain level.

Moley on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

> I did. Yes.

> On the topic of drug-testing: 

> His passion is his sport. Effective drug testing is good for the health of the sport.

> With doping being rife, I cannot understand why this isn't a ubiquitous policy in all sport above a certain level.

Cost? I'm surprised a minor sport like his can finance drug testing to that degree, presume it is subsidised well in that country - good on them.

But major sports that are awash with money (tennis being one of them) have no excuse not to have robust testing and maybe even subsidise lesser sports?

Perhaps a % tax on all profitable sports could go towards a drug agency - or something.

captain paranoia - on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

> a colleague of mine plays underwater rugby

I would have thought taking drugs was a requirement for playing underwater rugby...

galpinos on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to Moley:

Bearing in mind tennis seems to have an issue of catching stars having taken recreational drugs, from Agassi's crystal meth to Gasquet and his cocaine kiss maybe they can't face the hassle.....

ClimberEd - on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

Cost (no question mark). I think it's $1000 per test or something like that. 

wbo - on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:  What is tennis's testing policy?  They have caught stars in the past.

I would tend to assume she's been able to dominate the sport for a long time despite not playing a complete circuit as probably the result of not playing a full circuit.  It's a frequent complaint that the calender is too long (nearly non stop) and too full to allow any recovery, making injury common and long term consistency difficult.   

  How often is she tested - rather often I imagine.  If you want lax go and talk rugby

 

 

galpinos on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to Moley:

I forgot to mention, tennis drug testing is split over three organisation, WADA, ITF and a local agency, in the case of Serena USADA. She's been at least tested 5 times by USADA this year alone and is tested more than the other american women and on a par in general with the men. I've no idea if this is less often or dine in a less robust manner than other sports.

1
Chris the Tall - on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

Would be surprised if it's a high as that, when you consider that something like 10 tests per day are done at major cycle races - top 3 on stage, jersey holders, plus a few more randoms. But of course cycling has a drugs problem and tennis, ahem, hasn't. But given that there is far more money in tennis I don't think that it is a factor

Serena Williams claims this year that she was being unfairly targeted for random tests certainly raised a few eyebrows amongst cyclists and runners. 

galpinos on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> Serena Williams claims this year that she was being unfairly targeted for random tests certainly raised a few eyebrows amongst cyclists and runners. 

It was brought to her attention during Wimbledon. USADA had tested her five times, the other top american women had only been tested either once or twice.

Chris the Tall - on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to galpinos:

Yes she has been tested more than other top american women tennis players. But then she has also won more. And has a dubious history of backdated TUEs and fleeing to a panic room to avoid a random test. So whilst it may just be random, there are several good reasons why she should be tested more often.

But my understanding is that being randomly tested 5 times in 6 months isn't particularly unusual for cyclists or runners. I think Lizzie Deignan has a tale of being test twice in two days by different bodies.

I suppose if you have been used to a lax system for so long, then the change will come as a shock  

1
galpinos on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I agree with all that, though that was five USADA tests. That does not include any WADA or ITF tests. As I said, I've no idea whether this is onerous or not.

I like the idea of a panic room though, somewhere to escape the kids.......

Yanis Nayu - on 12 Sep 2018
In reply to galpinos:

I don't think it's uncommon for the world number one to be tested much more than those lower down the order in all sports. We also don't know what other intelligence USADA has.  What is uncommon is to be able to make a phone call and it goes away...

Timmd on 14 Sep 2018
In reply to galpinos: Some women among my facebook friends have gone about the expectation for women to be quieter and to 'take up less space in the world'. Being ladylike can sometimes seem to amount to not expressing yourself as much as men (can) do. 

 

Post edited at 12:06
Yanis Nayu - on 14 Sep 2018
In reply to Timmd:

My view is that we should live in a world where everyone can express themselves, but that it’s not acceptable to use your power and that right to subject someone else to a long and nasty tirade of abuse. Serena Williams has very cynically conflated those two things. 

2
Timmd on 14 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu: I was just thinking actually, that a bit of decorum in most spheres mightn't be a bad thing. There have been a few male sports and tennis people saying they've done worse than Serena and not had the same backlash I gather.  Why has she very cynically done it, rather than lost some self control in the heat of the moment? How do you know she's been cynical....?

 

Post edited at 12:25
4
Yanis Nayu - on 14 Sep 2018
In reply to Timmd:

I’m talking about how she’s twisted what was in essence her behaving like an entitled brat to her claiming to have done it to fight for women’s rights. 

She lost her temper because she got caught cheating and was losing.

 

2
Timmd on 14 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu: 

> I’m talking about how she’s twisted what was in essence her behaving like an entitled brat to her claiming to have done it to fight for women’s rights. 

> She lost her temper because she got caught cheating and was losing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/sports/tennis/serena-williams-umpire-carlos-ramos-us-open.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/sep/09/serena-williams-womens-treatment-tennis-us-open-final

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45492288

It would seem to be that there's some agreement that there is sexism in tennis, and also, that Serena was out of line. Which means that she needn't be being cynical or wrong to be talking about sexism (as something which exists), just wrong to be applying it to what happened to her. So one could call her cynical to be talking about sexism, or put down to her being too involved in events to be able to be objective. Without having insight into how she has been thinking since she lost (to do with talking about sexism), the accuracy of calling her cynical could seem to be difficult to gauge. 

 

Post edited at 13:24
4
Yanis Nayu - on 15 Sep 2018
In reply to Timmd:

I don’t know if there’s agreement; there are various people saying it, but that doesn’t make it true. There have certainly been some issues, like the girl who got docked a point for changing her shirt on court. That’s just wrong. There are potentially episodes where men have been treated more harshly than women (which would accord with what happens more widely in society), but nobody has raised it as an issue.  It seems like the objective evidence demonstrates to the contrary - as I said upthread men get more than 2 times as many code violations as women, although I don’t think it’s yet been analysed to see if that’s proportionate to the number of discretions. 

Serena Williams was coached on court and correctly got penalised by an umpire who has done the same to male and female players it would seem without fear or favour, then correctly got penalised for smashing her racket, then correctly got penalised for gobbing-off at the umpire for a protracted period, including impugning his integrity. She responded by claiming sexism and that she was defending women.  Cynical. Not much thought given to her female opponent. Or the female officials she’s previously abused.  

I don’t have an issue with people cutting her a bit of slack (although it would be more understandable if she’d shown some contrition), but the logic of using it as a reason to think more highly of her escapes me.

 

 

1
Timmd on 15 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> I don’t know if there’s agreement; there are various people saying it, but that doesn’t make it true. There have certainly been some issues, like the girl who got docked a point for changing her shirt on court. That’s just wrong. There are potentially episodes where men have been treated more harshly than women (which would accord with what happens more widely in society), but nobody has raised it as an issue.  It seems like the objective evidence demonstrates to the contrary - as I said upthread men get more than 2 times as many code violations as women, although I don’t think it’s yet been analysed to see if that’s proportionate to the number of discretions. 

If it's not been analysed, can there be said to be objective evidence?

> Serena Williams was coached on court and correctly got penalised by an umpire who has done the same to male and female players it would seem without fear or favour, then correctly got penalised for smashing her racket, then correctly got penalised for gobbing-off at the umpire for a protracted period, including impugning his integrity. She responded by claiming sexism and that she was defending women.  Cynical. Not much thought given to her female opponent. Or the female officials she’s previously abused.  

You've not acknowledged that people can lack objectivity due to being too emotionally involved. It's a small thing in the scheme of things , but it's a possible alternative to there being cynicism, we all have blind spots, and she might genuinely think it's about sexism.  All the most successful sports people seem to be emotionally invested  in winning - Tim Henman never seemed to be to the required degree I sometimes thought, I agree that she was out of line,.

> I don’t have an issue with people cutting her a bit of slack (although it would be more understandable if she’d shown some contrition), but the logic of using it as a reason to think more highly of her escapes me.

I don't think more highly of her because of it. I gather she hugged her opponent at the end. 

Post edited at 23:28
Yanis Nayu - on 16 Sep 2018
In reply to Timmd:

> If it's not been analysed, can there be said to be objective evidence?

The evidence I’m quoting has some rationale behind it and I’ve acknowledged that it needs more analysis, but it points to the opposite of what’s being claimed. These claims are being made by people/groups with a clear agenda, and without any objective basis. Throwing out a single anecdote does not make a case. In the specifics of this case, SW’s claim that she was dealt with in a sexist way by the umpire at the time could quickly be dismissed with a quick examination of his record, but people were too quick to jump on SW’s bandwagon to do so.

> You've not acknowledged that people can lack objectivity due to being too emotionally involved. It's a small thing in the scheme of things , but it's a possible alternative to there being cynicism, we all have blind spots, and she might genuinely think it's about sexism.  All the most successful sports people seem to be emotionally invested  in winning - Tim Henman never seemed to be to the required degree I sometimes thought, I agree that she was out of line,.

You’re right of course. She’s had plenty of time to reflect though, and if she has softened her stance or shown any contrition I haven’t seen it.  I also agree that it’s a small thing in the scheme of things, apart from two things.  One is the potential affect on the umpire. He needs to be extremely mentally resilient to come through this, and it’s simply unfair that he has to.  Secondly, I think the phenomenon of people blindly jumping on a cause without any objectivity  is a worrying thing for society, although this is hardly the biggest issue at the moment where that has happened.  People I know have not given the issue a single shred of scrutiny but are firmly of the opinion that she’s a victim because she’s told them so.

> I don't think more highly of her because of it. I gather she hugged her opponent at the end. 

I had a pretty high opinion of her before this and it’s much lower now.  Too little too late.

 

Ex Poster 666 on 16 Sep 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

To summarize, multi-$millionaire throws a hissy fit.
Come on, WGAFF?!

As for the offencerati with the cartoon, gives them something to whinge about I suppose, clueless idiots that they are.

1
wbo - on 16 Sep 2018
In reply to Ex Poster 666: 121 posts indicate a lot of middle aged white men seem to GAFF. 

 

GrahamD - on 16 Sep 2018
In reply to Ex Poster 666:

If I were a baby I might feel offended as being equated to a prima donna suffering terminal entitlement..


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