Sea kayaking

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 Pids 05 Feb 2019

Bought myself a second hand old style plastic sea kayak and now wondering what to do  

Have long experience in white water paddling (rivers, slalom and WWR boats) but have never been in a sea boat.

My roll, in a river boat, is pretty bombproof but guess I will need to practice rolling in the sea boat in a sheltered bay, also planning on a few paddles on local lochs or sheltered bays to get the hang of it before venturing further afield - bought the boat mainly for pottering around with but have an eye for extended trips round about the west coast of Scotland.

Initial queries though (and there are a few):

1 - I only have river paddles, whilst these will be fine initially will I need to get sea paddles - longer, better in wind - or will it not REALLY matter that much (I think it may)

2 - I paddle rivers (even in winter in Scotland) wearing dry cag/thermals/wet suit shorts - should I be thinking about dry suit or is this an admission that I may end up swimming (which I would rather not do obviously) - I do have a surfing wet suit I could wear although it may rub on armpits I suppose

3 - paddle float - err, what is one of these and how do you attach it when capsized, I just don't understand 

4 - apart from river gear I have no sea safety stuff - what do I "need" for easy days initially until I get the hang of it

5- cowboy rescue - is that just straddling the boat and shuffling along to get back into it?

Realise I have opened myself up for the usual UKC lambasting but just keen to see if I can gleam any knowledge before I venture out.

 

 

Rigid Raider 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

I can't advise you on equipment but I can tell you that sea kayaking is one of those sports where everything can go very wrong very quickly. If you want to read a very enjoyable book, which will give you a good appreciation of the dangers, I strongly recommend this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Argonauts-Western-Isles-Robin-Lloyd-Jones/dp/19044...

 

1
cb294 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

Sea kayaking is fun but can be dangerous bla bla bla...

That said, here are my answers:

1) You should not be out, especially not alone, when the difference in wind resistance makes a difference. Of course, proper sea paddles are also much more convenient in the water, but I would not bother, at least initially.

2) Paddling in proper cold water without a wet or dry suit is highly dangerous. If you fall in, you only have a few mins before you will be too cold to be able to perform a self rescue. For winter paddling on large water bodies a dry suit is essential, if it is a bit warmer, a wet suit will usually do. 

Note that water, not air temperature, is key. Paddling on a large arctic lake with 27°C air temp and 4°C water temp is no fun in a dry suit. My solution was to leave the front zipper open, so I could pulled the suit up and closed when it got windy.

3) A paddle float fits on one end of the paddle while you put the other end on top of the boat. This serves as an outrigger to stabilize the boat for re-entry.

4) Most of all, find a partner. Having two boats is not only more fun but also much safer (e.g, having someone stabilizing your boat while you climb back in and pump out the water....). A bilge pump can be good, also signal flares, a proper dry bag for warm spare clothes, etc...

5) Yes, but even then it will be easier if you stabilize the boat with a padle float, and even easier if you have a partner stabilizing your tub. Practise cowboying in both from the bow (much easier to drop into the cockpit) and the stern.

CB

 deepsoup 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

I'll have a go, but don't have much in the way of expertise to offer.  You're on the wrong forum really.
As a WW paddler, do you read UKRGB already?  Besides the forum there's a fair bit here: https://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/sea/home

> 1 - I only have river paddles, whilst these will be fine initially will I need to get sea paddles - longer, better in wind - or will it not REALLY matter that much (I think it may)

I think you probably will want longer, but your WW paddle might do to get you going initially.

> 2 - should I be thinking about dry suit

The things you need to think about are the same as you already do on a river really, but bear in mind that if you do swim it may take you rather longer to get out of the water than it does on a river.

> 3 - paddle float - err, what is one of these and how do you attach it when capsized, I just don't understand 

You don't attach it when capsized - you either roll or you don't.  You'd most likely attach a paddle float while swimming to allow you to use the paddle as a kind of outrigger to stabilise the boat while you're getting back in and sorting yourself out.

> 4 - apart from river gear I have no sea safety stuff - what do I "need" for easy days initially until I get the hang of it

That probably depends on what you mean by 'easy'.
I mean, for easy easy probably nothing.  Your WW clothing and BA will do fine, and you'll most likely not be needing to wear a helmet either.

Later, a paddle float probably, maybe also a bilge pump.  VHF radio and possibly a PLB.  (People generally carry flares less than they used to, but still possibly worth thinking about.)  A spare (split) paddle, and if you're venturing any distance from civilisation various bits and bobs you may need to repair a damaged boat to get you home.  The airbags from the stern of your WW boat might be useful there, you can use them to help prevent a front or rear hatch from flooding too much even if there is a hole in the hull.

A tow-line and a shorter contact-tow can be useful when paddling with others, in much the same way your throw line is not much use to you paddling a river on your own but you want one if you're going to pull your weight as part of a group.  (A waist-belt tow line can also be useful for difficult landings where you essentially jump out of the boat and swim the last little bit to shore/rocks/etc.)

> 5- cowboy rescue - is that just straddling the boat and shuffling along to get back into it?

Yep.  Modern sea kayaks generally have a bulkhead behind the cockpit that means it can be emptied by lifting the bow alone (rather than having to do a WW-style 'X' rescue).  With practice you can tip almost all of the water out of a flooded cockpit while swimming at the bow of the boat before 'cowboy' clambering back in.  Other forms of self-rescue, such as re-entering the boat and rolling it up, involve you sitting in a heavily flooded cockpit afterwards until you can either pump or bail it out, or paddle somewhere to land or otherwise empty the boat.  (The bulkheads in a modern sea kayak prevent the front and rear hatches from flooding, so it should still be buoyant enough to paddle even with the cockpit completely flooded, though it'll feel very unstable.)

> but just keen to see if I can gleam any knowledge before I venture out.

A wee bit of coaching might be a sound investment, it's not particularly expensive (compared to, say, mountain guiding) and could save you a lot of time and potentially some suffering working it out for yourself by trial & error. 

Sorry if I'm stating the bleedin obvious, but it's also going to be important to appreciate that the tide doesn't just go up and down - there are places around the Scottish coast where the sea may flow as fast or faster than you can paddle, and slack water doesn't always coincide with high/low water.  The way water flows in and out of lochs and around islands can be a bit counterintuitive.  If you don't know what to expect you can get yourself in a bit of a pickle very easily.

A couple of technical books to maybe look at:
Sea Kayak, by Gordon Brown.  (Not that Gordon Brown.)
Sea Kayak Navigation, by Franco Ferrarro

Gordon Brown has various DVD's out too, and Nick Cunliffe's 'Sea Kayak Essentials' DVDs are excellent.  There's also a *lot* of stuff on youtube.  (But as ever, there is also some absolute nonsense - you need to sort the wheat from the chaff a bit.)

Best of luck.

 Dave B 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

https://rnli.org/safety/choose-your-activity/kayaking-and-canoeing

 

I have the RNLI kayak safety packs if you can't get one online. Drop me an email if you want one posted to you. 

 

I carry vhf, plb. I don't have split paddles, but then I'm in a surf ski with no where to store them.

Clothes wise. I tend to wear a wetsuit (5/3) and cag and booties (6mm). I have neoprene pogies. I wear a leash from calf to ski and from paddle to ski. Various opinions are available on leashes on kayaks, but for skis they make 100% sense.

My friend says, 'The only good solo is hans'. Have a paddle partner or two in winter! 

 Gone 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

Lots of good info already, but to add a bit:

- a few uses for a paddle float. You can use it as an outrigger on one side while scrambling onto your boat from the stern, OR you can hook your leg over the outrigger and scramble aboard sideways that way, OR attach it to the paddle when swimming and use it for a reentry and roll to make the roll of a flooded boat more bombproof. All these methods have different pros and cons and you should try all of them in a pool or sheltered area to find out what works for you. You will need a pump as well. There are videos on YouTube to demonstrate these methods.

- for safety, especially if solo, dress for the swim not the paddle. Many people swim test their gear every time they go out so that they know if there is a problem (leaky drysuit, or underestimated coldness of the water) before it becomes life threatening. You can always roll to cool your head. drysuit is great but expensive, people start off with a kayaking long John wetsuit or a supermarket full suit  with the arms cut off.

- WW paddles will be fine at first but may get annoying as you may end up hitting them on the side of the boat. Properly sized paddles will be slightly more efficient.

 kathrync 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

> 1 - I only have river paddles, whilst these will be fine initially will I need to get sea paddles - longer, better in wind - or will it not REALLY matter that much (I think it may)

River paddles will be fine to start out.  A longer paddle was much nicer for me though - if nothing else, easier to work with with a higher profile cockpit without skinning my thumbs.  Definitely consider carrying a spare on your back deck.

> 2 - I paddle rivers (even in winter in Scotland) wearing dry cag/thermals/wet suit shorts - should I be thinking about dry suit or is this an admission that I may end up swimming (which I would rather not do obviously) - I do have a surfing wet suit I could wear although it may rub on armpits I suppose

Dry suit - or failing that dry cag and over trousers most of the time for me.  In summer, I sometimes wear a sleeveless wetsuit with a dry cag over it when messing about inland (e.g., on Loch Lomond), but in open water, dry kit all the way.

> 3 - paddle float - err, what is one of these and how do you attach it when capsized, I just don't understand 

Read cb294's comment - it explains it well.  Plenty of videos online too.  Basically, it's like a child's armband for your paddle that allows you to use it as an outrigger in rescue situations.

> 4 - apart from river gear I have no sea safety stuff - what do I "need" for easy days initially until I get the hang of it

See cb294's list again.  I would add a spare paddle and think about a radio too.

> 5- cowboy rescue - is that just straddling the boat and shuffling along to get back into it?

Yes, pretty much.

 

Regarding rolling, I had a pretty bomb-proof roll in a polo boat, but I found a sea kayak a lot heavier (especially loaded) and I had to change my technique significantly to get it to work.  In the end, an old boy in the club I was a member of at the time helped me out.  Worth seeing if you can take your boat to a pool night some time (depends on the pool and the club - obviously they take a lot of room).

 

 Phil1919 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

Great stuff. How will your boat handle in the water when there is some wave action and windage? They vary. If you treat it the same way as you would if you started hiking then you would start slowly with sheltered trips near to the coast, aware of neap/spring tides, the forecast etc and not go far wrong. There are some great 'safe' trips to start with. Avoid crossings, exposed paddling.  Sea paddles will be needed eventually as they are light. I'd avoid the winter, and try for May/June. I've paddled a lot and have never needed to roll at sea. Just make sure you don't put yourself in the position where you might have to......always a possibility...... Not a lot of safety stuff needed if you pick sensible trips. Good forecast needed of course, and some strength in arms will give you confidence. At its best when camping is involved so that you can really get into the environment. Then more kit needed of course, and an ability to keep it dry. I like the quote that 'sea kayaking is like cricket, boring and dangerous'. Just go at it slowly, but with your background in river kayaking you will be at an advantage. Some of the best adventures I have had have been in a sea kayak in Scotland. 

 kevin stephens 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

I started sea kayaking last summer without having any significant WW experience and got hooked. In addition to all of the above excellent advice I would recommend doing a weekend or week's course.  This will give you the opportunity to more quickly and effectively adapt your paddling technique to sea boats (turning by edging etc) in a relatively safe environment; ie having someone to rescue you if over-cooking it.  Also get some practical experience and practice of rescue and self rescue - these skills are essential in the absence of a friendly river bank.  Also some guidance in winds and tides and their interaction. You may also be able to borrow a longer paddle to see what difference  If you are already an accomplished white water paddler the BCU 3 star sea kayak award (or whatever it's changed to) should be a relatively straightforward level of competence to aim for.  As already stated as well as a course it is important to find another person (ideally two) to paddle with.  A major danger is that you will want to spend a lot more money on a new glass fibre boat as well as the essentials mentioned; dry suit, spare paddles PLB etc etc

Post edited at 14:00
 Sayon 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

Plenty of good points above- having company takes a lot of the stress away (assuming that they are competent) . having said that, I've had plenty of great solo kayak trips, and to make it as safe and enjoyable as I can, these are some of the steps I take - with a background of gained experience with good sea kayakers. 

Paddle- get a sea paddle! You might get away with a river paddle initially but it's like riding a bike permanently in top gear, so you run the risk of a repetitive strain injury.

I probably don't have a bombproof roll, but fortunately a capsize has happened only once over the years except when landing in surf- pick your conditions! I have practiced the re-entry and roll though, and I think this is a much more useful skill than cowboy style re-entry. I always carry a pump and have a reed spraydeck which you can put on and has a means of still letting you pump the cockpit out. I can't see any downside to having a paddle float as well just in case, although I tend not to bother carrying one.

 

A drysuit gives me more confidence and safety margin-- unlike white water, hypothermia is what will kill you-a dry suit gives you hours potentially to get back in the boat and reach land.

Enjoy your kayaking, and as others have said, try to team up with someone experienced whilst learning--there are unknown unknowns!

 ScraggyGoat 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

All the obvious hi tech safety gear has been mentioned (spare splits, drysuits, flares, vhf, plb, tow line, pump), but don't forget the basics firstly a good weather forecast, secondly of a full set of spare clothes, bothy bag and shoes you can walk in, plus a bit of food and water. 

That way if the wind picks up, you have options; getting off the water then sitting tight, walking or hitching back to your car, or calling for someone to give you a favor, and while you wait/ decide what to do you can be warm and dry thus more likely to make the better decision.  Taking the long walk home particularly if your alone, or its going to get dark could be your best option.......probe every sea paddler over a pint or two and you'll find we all have a long walk of shame story!

Consider buying a cheap old nokia phone and a waterproof case and particularly if you haven't a vhf/plb keep it on you, not in the boat.  When landing and if going for an explore or a snooze, always take your comm's with you, or place well above the high tide line.....you'd be surprised at the number of 'old salts' that have lost boats off the beach to an incoming tide/rogue wave.....this normally takes whisky rather than just beer to free tongues.....

On the water don't just focus on the end of your boat and the conditions your in, try and develop a larger scale situational awareness. Weather changes, tidal action, interaction of the two and likely effect on you, swell (and swell through tide) probable conditions round headlands, or when you paddle back at a different state of the tide.  

A lot of the time its (very) boring, some of the time it is or could become seriously dangerous (these are magnified when paddling alone), occasionally its magic; whole islands and beaches to yourself, seals playing with your bow toggle and their pups deciding to hitch a ride, dolphins jumping over your boat, otters ignoring you, stags in rut swimming across your path to get to a harem on the other side of the loch, sea eagles, Gannets diving all around, basking sharks, caves and tunnels to explore, rainbows, surface glories, green flashes, and phosphorescence, major headlands and crossings to make.  But I still haven't seen a whale......

 

Post edited at 17:02
 kathrync 05 Feb 2019
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> A lot of the time its (very) boring, some of the time it is or could become seriously dangerous (these are magnified when paddling alone), occasionally its magic; whole islands and beaches to yourself, seals playing with your bow toggle and their pups deciding to hitch a ride, dolphins jumping over your boat, otters ignoring you, stags in rut swimming across your path to get to a harem on the other side of the loch, sea eagles, Gannets diving all around, basking sharks, caves and tunnels to explore, rainbows, surface glories, green flashes, and phosphorescence, major headlands and crossings to make.  But I still haven't seen a whale......

 

Ah, I was lucky enough to get a whale on my first time out, but I'm still waiting for that elusive basking shark...

 

Removed User 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

Plenty of good advice on here. I remember my 1st couple of trips which were taken without the benefit of training and I remember thinking that my number 1 issue was "if I fall out, then what?"

So the number 1 thing for me is the ability to get back into the boat and a paddle float will help with this. I usually practice this at least once a year.

I have a fairly solid roll and find the big sea kayak comes up just as easily as a WW kayak but a fully loaded kayak might be harder work. Having the ability to do it in anger might also be problematic.

You haven't said what type of cockpit you have but a sea cockpit is smaller than a standard one and worth practicing with.

 ScraggyGoat 05 Feb 2019
In reply to kathrync:

Aaaaagh……...I'll swap you a  winter Ardnamurchan paddle & camping trip from the mouth of Loch Moidart for a whale?

Mind you I've only had one basking shark encounter.

 Dave the Rave 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Rigid Raider:

Sorry to interrupt. Back in the 2000’s I think, there were two kayakers who paddled from ? Scotland to the Faroes or ? Iceland. Do you know if there’s a book of this journey? Ta

 marsbar 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

I have paddled without a drysuit (they didn’t have such luxuries in my father’s time) and survived, but not at this time of year.  

Lomo do a good value one which is very popular.  

Lochs are great but be aware the wind can be an issue.  Have you got a skeg, if so make sure it works and you know how to use it. 

Some sea kayaks don’t handle as well empty as packed so you may want to experiment with bottles of water if you have trouble on day trips.  

I will link you a few videos.  I’d recommend you find someone or a club to paddle with, or go on a course or hire a coach if you want to make quick progress.  As presumably you already have good forward paddling and handling skills from WW your progress should be relatively rapid.  

youtube.com/watch?v=b_kvMCmoZw0&

youtube.com/watch?v=dCDyq4KWBVg&

I highly recommend https://www.zoenewsamguiding.com/#

if you do want a coach, or http://www.skyakadventures.com/staff/morag-brown/

Post edited at 20:04
 marsbar 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave the Rave:

This is more recent is this the one?  http://www.ollyhicks.com/greenland-to-scotland-challenge/

Removed User 05 Feb 2019
In reply to marsbar:

I prefer a skeg over a rudder. But that's just me

 marsbar 05 Feb 2019
In reply to Removed User:

I have a skeg.  It makes a difference.  Dad has various kayaks and his favourite doesn’t, but it handles fine without due to the shape I suppose.  

Removed User 05 Feb 2019
In reply to marsbar:

Yes, a Skeg makes a huge difference to forward stability in high winds but can drag a little. Many modern sea kayaks come with a rudder which can be controlled via foot pedals but I dislike these and prefer to steer through my knees and leaning.

 ScraggyGoat 06 Feb 2019
In reply to marsbar:

Gordon and Morag of Skyak have closed their doors and emigrated to pastures new.

 Toerag 06 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

Your river and WW experience will stand you in good stead if you end up somewhere with a lot of tide. The big difference is that if you do have problems you have to be self-sufficient as there's probably not a bank to swim to. you also can't rely on being seen from the shore, a kayak / kayaker is a very small target. Golden rule - stay with the boat unless you unequivocally know you can swim to safety. I'd suggest joining a club - best way to glean local knowledge and canoeing buddies. If you (or anyone else on here) ever end up in the Channel islands canoeing hit me up for local knowledge - I used to run a fast fishing boat and have a number of serious sea kayaker buddies.

 Wry Spudding 06 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave the Rave:

Patrick Winterton and Mick Berwick successfully paddled from Scotland to the Faroes in 2009 (2nd attempt after abandoning previous attempt at North Rona.

Patrick and Olly Hicks then paddled Shetland to Norway in 2012

Olly Hicks and George Bullard paddled Greenland to Scotland via Iceland and the Faroe Islands in 2016

John Willacy's Performance Sea Kayak website gives some info on these and other journeys.

http://www.performanceseakayak.co.uk/Pages/Records/Uniques/recordsUniques.p...

OP Pids 06 Feb 2019
In reply to Pids:

Cheers all - some great advice on here  - and thankfully stayed off the "sea kayaking can be dangerous" patronising line  

I'm in a club, have a steady crew of paddle mates, although mostly river runners but some have sea experience, wont be venturing out on my own  - and can try practice roll in a pool situation in the sea boat before heading out (although hope not to have to use it in action)

I've also now googled a fair bit, know what a paddle float is and seen how to use it - makes sense to me now

Lastly - cockpit of the sea boat is the same as my old 90's slalom boats, a better fit for me that the huge cockpit of plastic river boats now

Thanks again for all the comments - looking forward to getting out there once the sea warms up a touch

 Dave the Rave 06 Feb 2019
In reply to Wry Spudding:

Thank you

It will be the 2009 one that I remember but the others look equally interesting

Post edited at 20:19
 Dave the Rave 06 Feb 2019
In reply to marsbar:

Thanks mars bar I think it’s the 2009 one someone has mentioned above in reply to me.

 marsbar 06 Feb 2019
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

Thanks for the update.  Good luck to them.

 marsbar 06 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave the Rave:

No worries. 


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