Scotland is not the UK

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 Heike 10 Aug 2021

Had a great laugh today! We ordered a kayak from a shop in England and it said free delivery for the UK mainland. It added,  however,  a delivery charge to it when we were paying. So we phoned them to query that just to be told that Scotland (we live in the Central Belt) is NOT the UK mainland He said to call ourselves lucky as the Highlands are even more expensive.  

Post edited at 15:27
 Doug 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

did you pay ? and sounds like 'name & shame' might be an idea.

1
 Stichtplate 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

Since when did Tom start flogging kayaks?

4
 Lankyman 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Since when did Tom start flogging kayaks?

And from a shop in ENGLAND?!!

3
 kwoods 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

Highlands have had this problem for years and it's a complete PITA.

 Philip 10 Aug 2021
In reply to kwoods:

> Highlands have had this problem for years and it's a complete PITA.

Understandable - you're only temporarily attached by fluke of geology. Give it another 100 million years and you'll be gone - by which time Hermes / Yodel might just have delivered it!

OP Heike 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Philip:

Soon we will be floating off into the seas...Hahaha

 Glyno 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Doug:

> did you pay ? and sounds like 'name & shame' might be an idea.

Good idea! ...and also name and shame the shop that sells and repairs rucksacks but only delivers free within Scotland (£7.50 to England, Wales and N. Ireland)?

2
 Lankyman 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Glyno:

> Good idea! ...and also name and shame the shop that sells and repairs rucksacks but only delivers free within Scotland (£7.50 to England, Wales and N. Ireland)?

Very odd! Berwick is much closer to the Scottish conurbations than pretty well every large English town. How do they justify the charges?

 kinley2 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

Sounds like false advertising...

...or the kind of ignorance that would earn only an A at A-level Geography this year.

1
OP Heike 10 Aug 2021
In reply to kinley2:

Hehehe, that's what I was thinking. "How about brushing up on your Geography,l mate....." I think they just haven't got a clue. The guy I was talking to was ever so nice, but he was still adamant Scotland is not Mainland Britain. No point arguing...

 rogerwebb 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

Worryingly poor geography appears to be quite common. According to the Scottish Legal Aid Board you can get a train or drive from Portree (and Inverness) to Stornoway... 

(to be fair it was probably just one employee and they have now been persuaded otherwise) 

Post edited at 17:59
In reply to Heike:

NI isn't mainland Britain, but it part of the UK. Some serious lack of understanding about what the UK is, and about advertising standards.

I suspect their delivery courier charges extra for Highlands, which may not be unreasonable. But that doesn't excuse the false advertising.

 colinakmc 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

Nothing to do with delivery charge discrimination but we just had a self catering week in the Peak District. (From south Lanarkshire) The very mature, posh English lady who came and handed us the keys asked if we’d managed to drive down all in one day…..

Geographical ignorance is depressingly widespread.

I was tempted to tell her we’d have managed in a day but the horse & cart to Carlisle was late….

11
 Dr.S at work 10 Aug 2021
In reply to colinakmc:

TBF if she was Very mature then it may well have been more than a day trip in her youth.

 spenser 10 Aug 2021
In reply to colinakmc:

Climbers have a thoroughly warped perspective on driving distance given that we'll happily smash out a 3 hour drive on a Friday night when normal people would consider 2 hours the maximum drive for a holiday.

1
In reply to Heike:

>  So we phoned them to query that just to be told that Scotland (we live in the Central Belt) is NOT the UK mainland

Give it a couple of years and with any luck they'll be right.

13
 Martin Hore 10 Aug 2021
In reply to spenser:

> Climbers have a thoroughly warped perspective on driving distance given that we'll happily smash out a 3 hour drive on a Friday night when normal people would consider 2 hours the maximum drive for a holiday.

Speak for yourself! For us lowlanders (Ipswich) it's 4 hours minimum.

Martin

 ScraggyGoat 10 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I hope so Tom, quiet happy to let Glasgow and Dundee to become independent municipalities, but the rest of Scotland voted No.

and I definitely want border controls!

6
 Alkis 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

When I bought a fridge a couple of years ago, I used Curry's price match guarantee. They agree to price match any company in the U.K.. They were arguing that Northern Ireland was not part of the U.K., so I did have to remind them that the country is called The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland... 

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> I hope so Tom, quiet happy to let Glasgow and Dundee to become independent municipalities, but the rest of Scotland voted No.

It was a huge mistake.

We could have been independent and in the EU today.  We'd be in roughly the same situation as Ireland.  Half the Covid deaths.  Fewer lockdown days. More vaccination than the UK and vaccination with a more effective and safer set of vaccines.  Our supermarkets would have plenty of food.  We'd be trading easily with the EU and the rest of the world.   Freedom of movement.  Maybe in the Euro. 

And best of all, no corrupt English Tories telling us what to do.

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 65 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

I'd happily pay for it just on principle.

 Alkis 11 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> It was a huge mistake.

> We could have been independent and in the EU today.  We'd be in roughly the same situation as Ireland.  Half the Covid deaths.  Fewer lockdown days. More vaccination than the UK and vaccination with a more effective and safer set of vaccines.  Our supermarkets would have plenty of food.  We'd be trading easily with the EU and the rest of the world.   Freedom of movement.  Maybe in the Euro. 

Provided Spain wouldn't have vetoed membership to try and keep the Catalans in check, which is the biggest issue an independent Scotland is going to face.

6
 subtle 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

I was about to order a kayak, from a shop in England, advertised as free delivery yet when I put my Scottish address in the delivery charge was over £120 - spoke to them in the shop etc. and ended up ordering the kayak elsewhere.

Hope you ordered BA's as well......

 65 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Alkis:

Spain has said that if Scotland gains independence through legal, constitutional means it would not veto membership. The idea that they would veto us because of the Catalan question is a favourite BritNat trope, though also a reasonable conclusion to jump to, but afaik it is only a jump as I've never heard a peep from Spain regarding this. I'm happy to be corrected though.

However governments change and so might the board of play by the time Scotland gains independence. Spain could have a new government, President LePen might have to be reckoned with or the rest of the EU might be wondering whether Britain or Italy present the worst fascist threat. 

3
 Alkis 11 Aug 2021
In reply to 65:

I heard it discussed quite a lot in Greek political journalism circles, although that could be tainted by the Balkan perspective. Yeah, I would imagine that it wojld depend on the circumstances, and to be honest I would imagine that Brexit has made it a hell of a lot less likely that anyone would veto it anyway.

Post edited at 17:05
 StuPoo2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

Only to provide some balance to this thread.  

It was a kayak!!!  You wanted a Kayak delivered for free  ... and you are complaining about the fact that it wasn't.

I'm based in Scotland.  I kayak multiple times a week.  In a previous life ... I delivered a few kayaks.

Delivering kayaks isn't a "stick it in the mail" £2/3 type of thing.  If it's a playboat - maybe 6ft, river runner 7-9ft, sea kayak +12ft ... all circa 15kg.  Did you add in paddles, float bags, PFD's too?  In mail terms .. they're massive heavy bulky items.  Large, heavy, bulky items don't travel cheaply around the country.

Often, a kayak shop will do their own deliveries and fill the trailer before performing a "delivery run" round the country  every couple of weeks.  For some us, certainly been the case for me in Scotland in the past, we might need to meet the delivery run in a certain location and sling the boat on the roof.  To compound matters, if you're the only Scottish boat on the delivery run ... then they're driving to Scotland just for you - a personal delivery!!

Help us out ... not helpful to name and the shop in question but where was the kayak shop located?  If it's one of the ones in the south of England then it is wholly unreasonable to expect them to deliver your kayak to Scotland for free ... it's literally 100's & 100's of miles round trip.  

I do agree that it is unhelpful to draw an arbitrary line at the border - that is unfair.  A fairer way would be to charge using a radius model as the crow flies.

If you're a member of a club .. the clubs will often have someone heading south at some point that might be willing to take your boat back up the road for you.  

OT:  Tell us more about your kayak?  What did you buy?  

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 kinley2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

> It was a kayak!!!  You wanted a Kayak delivered for free  ... and you are complaining about the fact that it wasn't.

> Help us out ... not helpful to name and the shop in question but where was the kayak shop located?  If it's one of the ones in the south of England then it is wholly unreasonable to expect them to deliver your kayak to Scotland for free ... it's literally 100's & 100's of miles round trip.  

Haud yer horses. The issue raised was advertising free delivery in Mainland UK, then claiming Scotland isn't part of Mainland UK.

If a company advertises free delivery to where I live I'd expect free delivery to where I live. It's part of the buying process to look into Retail Price + delivery cost, late addition of delivery cost above and beyond that advertised is unfair practice. 

Post edited at 17:30
 wercat 11 Aug 2021
In reply to 65:

don't misstate things - it's not BritNat it would be EngNat or INGSOC

2
 FactorXXX 11 Aug 2021
In reply to kinley2:

> Haud yer horses. The issue raised was advertising free delivery in Mainland UK, then claiming Scotland isn't part of Mainland UK.
> If a company advertises free delivery to where I live I'd expect free delivery to where I live. It's part of the buying process to look into Retail Price + delivery cost, late addition of delivery cost above and beyond that advertised is unfair practice. 

The delivery destination isn't really that important as the company stipulated the added delivery charge before payment was made and therefore gave the purchaser the choice of what to do.

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 StuPoo2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to kinley2:

Screw it .. pleeeeeaaaase name the shop.  So that we can all look it up.

Almost every kayak shop online has terms in their delivery page regarding bulky items.  Many if not all of them have something about Scotland in there.  

If you see below .. lots of them are openly saying that they calculate delivery on the order pages once you tell them where you want it delivered too.

Here are some of the bigger retailers.

https://www.kayaksandpaddles.co.uk/canoe/kayak/uk/shop/delivery-info.htm

Delivery of Kayaks & Canoes:

We offer a delivery service for most kayaks & canoes covering most of the UK – some products and areas are excluded. We provide a bespoke delivery service for canoes and kayaks to improve the level of service and minimise the risk of damage.

Most Canoe & Kayak deliveries arrive within 1-2 weeks from confirming your order (this is not guaranteed). The majority of Canoe & Kayak deliveries will be quicker than this but some may take longer.

Special Delivery Regions

Scotland & Offshore

We offer a delivery service on most smaller items including clothing, equipment, accessories to all of Scotland and Scottish Isles using a courier or Royal mail.

A Kayak & Canoe delivery service is available to most of mainland Scotland, but some exclusions and restrictions may apply. Please allow a little longer for some deliveries to arrive.

https://www.canoeandkayakstore.co.uk/pages/delivery

Delivery within the UK

For single orders under £50.00 we charge £4.95 for delivery by Royal Mail Parcel 48 (Standard shipping). You can pay extra for Royal Mail Parcel 24 or DPD next day delivery. Delivery is free on our standard shipping option for all single orders totalling over £50 delivered to a single address in mainland UK. Some exclusions apply; see below.

Deliveries to Northern Ireland, Highlands and Islands (including Isle of Wight) are not included as mainland UK for delivery purposes. We will check with our carriers prior to delivery and may contact you by email or telephone if further carriage charges are necessary. You will have the opportunity to accept or cancel the order.

The term “Highlands and Islands” is a list of postcodes determined by the carriers that we use (DPD, DX and Parcelforce). 

https://www.northeastkayaks.co.uk/delivery/

We do try to be clear about our delivery costs and these can be found when going through our checkout as there is a delivery cost calculator.

https://www.escape-watersports.co.uk/delivery-info

Large Item Surcharges

Due to the size of certain items (such as paddles and kayaks) we may be unable to offer our normal delivery rates, so a delivery surcharge will be applied at the checkout.

The cost of delivery will be clearly shown at the checkout basket before you complete your purchase.

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 kinley2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to FactorXXX:

I've no idea if that makes it fully legal bad practice or false advertising against retail law, I'm not an expert in the niceties of retail law.

....but if a company advertises free delivery to where I live I expect free delivery to where I live. Addition of late price hikes in the buying process specifically contrary to the advertised process is very poor practice. 

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 kinley2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

> Screw it .. pleeeeeaaaase name the shop.  So that we can all look it up.

Haha, got a bee in your bonnet.

 StuPoo2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

And just an FYI ... here is Parcel Force's list of post codes that constitute their definition of "highlands and islands":  https://www.parcelforce.com/sites/default/files/UKPostcodelistv2Aug19.pdf

See page #6 - zone #2.  

Paisley!!!!!!  Paisley, south of Glasgow, bang in the central belt of Scotland - is on Parcel Forces definition of Highlands and Islands and subject to additional charges!!!!!!!

As is Kilmarknock and Falkirk and Stirling.

1
 FactorXXX 11 Aug 2021
In reply to kinley2:

> I've no idea if that makes it fully legal bad practice or false advertising against retail law, I'm not an expert in the niceties of retail law.
> ....but if a company advertises free delivery to where I live I expect free delivery to where I live. Addition of late price hikes in the buying process specifically contrary to the advertised process is very poor practice. 

If the same thing happened to me I would do a quick calculation to see if the overall price was still OK and then either continue with the purchase or go elsewhere.
Life is way too short to kick up a fuss about it.

5
 kinley2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

> And just an FYI ... here is Parcel Force's list of post codes that constitute their definition of "highlands and islands":  https://www.parcelforce.com/sites/default/files/UKPostcodelistv2Aug19.pdf

> See page #6 - zone #2.  

> Paisley!!!!!!  Paisley, south of Glasgow, bang in the central belt of Scotland - is on Parcel Forces definition of Highlands and Islands and subject to additional charges!!!!!!!

> As is Kilmarknock and Falkirk and Stirling.

I'd want danger money to go to Paisley too.

But all is not as it seems if you look up the Postcodes. Paisley PA42 for instance is Cambeltown and Machrahanish. Kilmarnock KA28 is Milport.

Not that I approve of the extra weighting - but postcodes cover vast areas once you get out into the better bits of Scotland...and can seem a bit wierd.

 kinley2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to FactorXXX:

> If the same thing happened to me I would do a quick calculation to see if the overall price was still OK and then either continue with the purchase or go elsewhere.

> Life is way too short to kick up a fuss about it.

That's why we have social media and forums. Apparently life isn't too short to waste on them.

 StuPoo2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to kinley2:

hahahaha.  Fair point.

My point here is that the kayaks are not your ordinary, typical retail purchases.  Getting them to where they need to be delivered is not a normal delivery and it isn't cheap.

It's common practice when you purchase a kayak to work out at the end of the sale how its going to be got to you, how long that's going to take and how much more, on top of what you've already paid for boat, that is going to take.  It's often a phone call with the shop.

I can appreciate how that might be confusing if this is the first kayak you've ever purchased.

Life would be made much easier if there was at least 1x proper kayak retailer left in Scotland .. there pretty isn't.  The last Kayak I bought was from NSWatersports down at the Tees Barrage.  I collected it myself and enjoyed a day out on the Tees Barrage whitewater course while I was at it.  (FYI .. NSWatersports will let you trial, or they did, a boat on the course before you commit.  Well worth it if you're spending big)

I honestly don't believe there is some great fraud or wrong doing going down here.

4
 FactorXXX 11 Aug 2021
In reply to kinley2:

> That's why we have social media and forums. Apparently life isn't too short to waste on them.

What else are you supposed to do in work?

 wbo2 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike: If it's not in the UK ask for the VAT to be removed

 Graeme G 11 Aug 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

> I honestly don't believe there is some great fraud or wrong doing going down here.

You need to extend your reading.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/moray/2765794/excess-delivery-cha...

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 Doug 11 Aug 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

I lived on Islay for a while, I had a post code starting PA (Paisley), as does much of Argyll.

But the main point is that if they won't deliver outside England (& Wales ?) they should say that & not 'free to mainland UK'

 spenser 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Martin Hore:

My point exactly!

My time in the London Mountaineering Club definitely contributed to the warped perspective about what to do on a Friday night! I'm up in Derby now so I don't do as much mileage as I once did!

 65 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Doug:

> I lived on Islay for a while, I had a post code starting PA (Paisley), as does much of Argyll.

Aye. PA39 is Glencoe. 

 scratcher 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

It's obviously a surcharge for having to deal with moaning Scots.

Seems perfectly reasonable.

9
 smally 11 Aug 2021
In reply to 65:

PH39, not PA39. Although a Perthshire postcode is equally as nuts.

 Cog 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Doug:

> I lived on Islay for a while, I had a post code starting PA (Paisley), as does much of Argyll.

I always gave my address as Mull, not Isle of Mull, to avoid any possible island charge.

Years ago someone in Oban was placing an order and the woman on the phone in the south of England was insisting Oban was on an island.

Eventually he said he lived on the same island as her. She replied “I don’t live on an island”.

 65 11 Aug 2021
In reply to smally:

Has it changed? I'm pretty sure it was PA when I lived there, admittedly 30 years ago.

 Robert Durran 12 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

>  We'd be trading easily with the EU and the rest of the world.   Freedom of movement.  Maybe in the Euro. 

And a hard border with our biggest trading partner

 StuPoo2 12 Aug 2021
In reply to Doug:

They don't say that .. that's the point!!!

Read the terms on almost every watersports website.  They all say "free delivery to mainland UK", and then have a clause for large bulk items i.e. kayaks .. which is what the OP is complaining about.

Example from NSWatersports:  https://www.nswatersports.co.uk/delivery-returns-i5

Delivery & Dispatch

All non-offer goods, where the order is valued over £150 are despatched free of charge within the UK (except N Ireland, Isle of Man, Channel Isles and Highlands and Islands) & the following exceptions canoes, kayaks, sit-on-tops and Stand Up paddleboards. These and all other carriage rates have been subsidised to reflect the above! We aim to deliver the goods within 2-3 days.

Delivery to addresses in the U.K

All goods will be dispatched to you by the cheapest option to yourselves either via Royal Mail, Parcelforce or TNT. If the amount charged by the website is different to the actual cost, we will contact you before dispatch for you to authorise the transaction.

NSWatersports has huge banner across the top of the page "Free delivery on orders over £150, Next day delivery on orders before 2pm" ... they're not talking about kayaks.  You're not going to get your kayak, free of charge to your door, anywhere in mainland UK, before 2pm the following day.

The OP is almost certainly reading the headline "we deliver free of charge to all of mainland UK ex highland and islands" which is applicable for standard mail order items i.e. small stuff, and failing to check what their policy is on delivery of kayaks.

Google "buy kayak uk" .. click on any of the retailers on the first page and then look down for their delivery details page. All will have details explaining the cost/process of calculating the cost of delivery for large & bulky items.

1
 StuPoo2 12 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Our supermarkets would have plenty of food.  We'd be trading easily with the EU and the rest of the world.   

But tell us Tom ... in a world where Scotland was no longer part of the rUK and had rejoined Europe.

Do you think it would reasonable for a European kayak retailer to charge a delivery fee to get their kayaks from their shop in Europe to Scotland?  

1
 Graeme G 12 Aug 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

> But tell us Tom ... in a world where Scotland was no longer part of the rUK and had rejoined Europe.

> Do you think it would reasonable for a European kayak retailer to charge a delivery fee to get their kayaks from their shop in Europe to Scotland?  

Won’t need to. Just find who wants to emigrate to Scotland and give them free passage and a kayak to cross the North Sea in. Sorted.

 ScraggyGoat 12 Aug 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

….that’s assuming we’d completed and weren’t still haggling over the terms of the separation.  
 

In this what-may-have-been-world, the retailer in England would have potentially had to pass on the customs and tariff charges to the purchaser….. but hey think of all those newly created border, customs and admin jobs….win!

 henwardian 12 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

I live on Skye and running into this sort of thing happens all the time. "free delivery to the UK" is just shorthand for "taking the time to actually define where we are prepared to deliver to is just too much effort so instead we'll just cancel and refund any orders that are too far away".

People might be be Amazon haters but where I live, a simple £8 per month gets me essentially anything delivered in 2 days and sometimes even the next day. There isn't a single other company I'm aware of that does anything close to these delivery times. (Frankly the constant stream of Royal Mail Special Delivery by 1pm must cost them a fortune so I count myself lucky that they consider themselves happy with the arrangement and will happily extole the quality and timeliness of their delivery system (yeah, I know, haters gonna tell me it's powered by the ground up bones of dead children and so on)).

 StuPoo2 12 Aug 2021
In reply to henwardian:

Booom ... could get an inflatable Kayak from Amazon with Prime delivery if you wanted it!  Xmas gift right there!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=kayak&rh=p_76%3A419158031&dc&qid=1...

1
 henwardian 12 Aug 2021
In reply to colinakmc:

> Geographical ignorance is depressingly widespread.

Some of my recent guests were surprised that Skye was connected to mains electricity

 henwardian 12 Aug 2021
In reply to spenser:

> Climbers have a thoroughly warped perspective on driving distance given that we'll happily smash out a 3 hour drive on a Friday night when normal people would consider 2 hours the maximum drive for a holiday.

Eh?!

I'd have to say it is the other way around. Most of my guests are from England and a fair number come from as far as England and South Wales. Most of them make an intermediate overnight stop but the drive from either of those places to Skye is like 12 hours!

 Robert Durran 12 Aug 2021
In reply to henwardian:

I'm not sure Skye really counts as an island now that there is a bridge.

Thinking about the island thing, it is really a relative thing. The UK has a mainland (not an island) and then islands like Mull. Relative to mainland Europe, mainland UK is an island. You could say Eurasia is an island too. Like many things, context is key.

2
 henwardian 12 Aug 2021
In reply to kinley2:

> I've no idea if that makes it fully legal bad practice or false advertising against retail law, I'm not an expert in the niceties of retail law.

> ....but if a company advertises free delivery to where I live I expect free delivery to where I live. Addition of late price hikes in the buying process specifically contrary to the advertised process is very poor practice. 

You are lucky you don't live anywhere North or West of a straight line drawn from Glasgow to Aberdeen then. You would find yourself spending every waking moment complaining and hounding sellers who want to extort you or just cancel your order. I very much doubt you'd ever achieve anything that way either. In practice, you end up avoiding ebay altogether (they are pretty much the worst) and just clicking and hoping most everywhere else.... Which is why I use Amazon - see above.

In reply to Robert Durran:

> And a hard border with our biggest trading partner

Ireland has a hard border with England and it has a GDP per person getting on for twice that of the UK.

Scotland would do just fine managing its economy to suit Scotland rather than having rules imposed which suit London.

12
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Ireland has a hard border with England and it has a GDP per person getting on for twice that of the UK.

> Scotland would do just fine managing its economy to suit Scotland rather than having rules imposed which suit London.

Really? My CSE geography must be letting me down........

2
In reply to StuPoo2:

> But tell us Tom ... in a world where Scotland was no longer part of the rUK and had rejoined Europe.

> Do you think it would reasonable for a European kayak retailer to charge a delivery fee to get their kayaks from their shop in Europe to Scotland?  

Are these Kayaks manufactured in England?

My guess is what will happen after Independence is that Scotland will develop a ferry port on the east coast, say Rosyth or Dundee and most imports from the EU will go straight from a port like Rotterdam to Scotland rather than to ports in England.  Ireland ramped up its ferry capacity so it wouldn't need to send its stuff through England after Brexit.

EU retailers that want to trade in Scotland without their own warehouse in Scotland will hire a company like Amazon to handle the logistics.  The kayak doesn't have to go near a bricks and mortar shop: a consignment of them will go from the manufacturer to the logistics company and from there to the buyers.  

Maybe English people will be driving to Scotland to get their kayaks because Brexit has f*cked up distribution in England so much.

16
 neilh 13 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

If it was sensible or cost effective to have done that before Brexit then it would have been done years ago.The answer is  that the marginal cost benefit of doing so will mean that it will continue  to go through England via such well recognised distribution techniques as bonded traffic/warehousing.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.

2
 mondite 13 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Are these Kayaks manufactured in England?

Quite a few yes.

> EU retailers that want to trade in Scotland without their own warehouse in Scotland will hire a company like Amazon to handle the logistics. 

Aside from people generally want to test a boat out first so you would need to have that sorted as well. Plus have you seen the size of a sea kayak?

Even a ww boat takes up a decent amount of space so not really the sort of thing you can lob into the back of a van for delivery alongside some books and also not something you would want to be paying for shelf space for.

 StuPoo2 13 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You didn't actually answer the question Tom.

Do you think, in a world where Scotland has left rUK and joined Europe, Scottish consumers of kayaks would be expected to have to pay a delivery surcharge to receive goods from a European based Company?  

OT:  For those of you who care.  Quality river kayaks (only area of kayaks I have any expertise in) are generally made in a roto-mould process.  2x halfs are made (of strong plastic), top and bottom, then joined together in a seam.  After that the boat is "outfitted" - seats, foot plates, grab handles added.  On paper, river boats, are relatively simple machines with few assembly parts to make them rugged - obviously.  Sea kayaks etc .. have many more parts to piece the boat together.  It isn't a cheap process.   A quality down river boat, creaker or play boat is going to set you back anything from £600-£1200.  There are, quality, UK manufacturers like Pyranha who design and build in UK.  There are also quality EU manufactures and  quality US manufacturer like Dagger.  Dagger, a US manufacturer, occasionally seeks to license the mold of a boat to a EU based manufacturer to remove the shipping.  In Daggers case they use Palm Equipment in the UK:  https://www.dagger.com/eu/en/about-us  In most case .. they'll aim to license to only a single EU manufacturer.

This isn't as simple the case as to say "all Dagger boats get manufactured in the UK" - I don't believe that is the case.  I believe they are licensed on a mold-by-mold basis.  Some molds will be niche - small run boats that are only around for a few years - they'll likely only get manufactured in the US and shipped where they need to go.  Some molds are going to have a long life time and become a classic paddled all over the world - I imagine these are the ones they seek to license for overseas manufacturing.

Point being - some, quality, kayaks will have manufactured in the UK - others will have come over in a shipping container.  This impacts the cost of the boats in the local market. Though that being said .. Pyranha Ripper (UK made) with creak outfitting will set you back maybe ~£1,150(ish) .. the dagger equivalent Dagger Rewind, similar creak outfitting, will set you back maybe ~£1200(ish).  £50 is nothing .. maybe that the cost of that boat coming over in a shipping container - i don't know.

NOTE:  UK kayak stores (not decathalon or amazon) don't have "distribution hubs" up and down the country.  They're a shop with a warehouse out the back.  You'll probably still have to pay a delivery charge to get that beautiful new boat to your door!!!! 

(Enjoy learning about the business of licensing kayak molds.  Happy Friday)

Post edited at 13:51
 wercat 13 Aug 2021
In reply to henwardian:

Skye had streetlights before some of the Mainland.  If you went to Skye from Lochcarron/Kishorn/Applecross/Torridon in the early 80s you could suffer culture shock at the level of suburbanisation as you entered Kyle and went over to Kyleakin

 deepsoup 13 Aug 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

> Quality river kayaks (only area of kayaks I have any expertise in) are generally made in a roto-mould process.  2x halfs are made (of strong plastic), top and bottom, then joined together in a seam.

Even further off topic & nitpicking somewhat but I think pretty much the whole the point of the roto-mould process is that the whole thing is made in one go, that's why the mould has to rotate.  There's no seam.

 StuPoo2 13 Aug 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

You are 110% correct deepsoup … I was wrong there.

There are plenty of kayaks made in two pieces joined together … but the river kayaks I was referring to above are indeed rotomold and that means a single piece of plastic.

 Good spot!!

 squarepeg 13 Aug 2021
In reply to Heike:

You can't have your kayak and eat it. 

In reply to squarepeg:

Now I'm thinking about using the roto-mould process to make easter eggs...

In reply to StuPoo2:

> You didn't actually answer the question Tom.

I don't really care about the specifics of kayaks.  It's a tiny niche product which will will have marginal impact on the economics of independence.   

My points are:

a. Scotland needs ferry ports on the east coast so its freight can come and go straight to the EU without going through England for the exact same reason as the Irish have expanded their ports and bought several large new ferries.  We also need to expand our capacity to handle containers so we aren't reliant on England.  

b. If we get our freight straight into Scotland the number of truck-driver-hours per delivery is reduced because they aren't spending a day driving through England and/or queuing up at Dover.  That means we can move more goods with fewer drivers.  Highly desirable when there aren't enough drivers.

c. The idea that the goods go from a manufacturer, through distribution to a bricks and mortar shop which operates a website and then when an order is received from that shop to the end customer in some part of Europe geographically distant from the shop is past its sell by date.  The goods can go straight from the manufacturer to a logistics company which provides back-end services and then from the logistics company to the end customer.  It doesn't matter where the shop is, what matters is where the manufacturer is and where the logistics company has its hubs.

d. England isn't in the EU any more.  Scotland will be going back in.  After independence we can unload containers from the US or China at a port in Scotland, why would we waste our time using an English port?  If a US company is using a company in England to make kayaks for the European market that's probably not going to last for long after Brexit.   They'll switch to someone in the EU and avoid the hassle.

22
 GrahamD 14 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You don't need independence to establish ports, only a business case.  If there was enough trade between Edinburgh and Rotterdam there would be a service.

1
In reply to GrahamD:

> You don't need independence to establish ports, only a business case.  If there was enough trade between Edinburgh and Rotterdam there would be a service.

There's been far too much transport infrastructure put in the south of England for decades,  and it has been distorting everything to the disadvantage of Scotland.

Independence and Brexit are what changes the balance and makes the economics work.   For the Irish Brexit made it worthwhile to buy new large ferries so they could get straight to Europe without going through England.  Same applies to Scotland.   There are no shortages in Irish supermarkets.  But unlike the Irish, Scotland are still ruled by English Tories in London so for now there is f*ck all we can do about it.  Independence will solve that.

Having our own ports is not only about the economics it is also about resilience and the ability to get by when the Tories f*ck things up.  There's no reason for Scotland to be affected when the dickheads create traffic jams in Dover.  

17
 mondite 14 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> There's been far too much transport infrastructure put in the south of England for decades

Have you ever used the A12? Or the A2 for that matter. A lot of the infrastructure in the SE really is shite outside the rail to get commuters in easier and even that is shoddy in many places.

 Stichtplate 14 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> There's been far too much transport infrastructure put in the south East of England for decades,  and it has been distorting everything to the disadvantage of the rest of the UK.

FTFY

 scratcher 15 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> For the Irish Brexit made it worthwhile to buy new large ferries so they could get straight to Europe without going through England.  Same applies to Scotland.

Lol. You can't even successfully operate ferries in your own country, when the ferry operator is state-owned and so is the company building your new ferries.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/23/incredibly-poor-scottish-is...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-56943864

3
 summo 15 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Ferries: transport is devolved, the decision and funds for Edinburgh trams, buying back Skye Bridge, or Sturgeon's bizarre Prestwick project etc... are all Holyrood led.

You can't blame London. Build your port and see what happens. 

1
 summo 15 Aug 2021
In reply to mondite:

> Have you ever used the A12? Or the A2 for that matter. A lot of the infrastructure in the SE really is shite outside the rail to get commuters in easier and even that is shoddy in many places.

Or the fact that M74 to Scotland was done nearly 30 years ago, while the north east still waits for the A1, A66 etc.. granted they have just done the last section of A1 past scotch corner, but western bypass, North of Newcastle or anything trans pennine are still dire. 

In reply to summo:

> Or the fact that M74 to Scotland was done nearly 30 years ago, while the north east still waits for the A1, A66 etc.. granted they have just done the last section of A1 past scotch corner, but western bypass, North of Newcastle or anything trans pennine are still dire. 

Scotland spent a ton of money making the road from Edinburgh south towards Newcastle fairly good.  Then what happens - miles and miles of single carriageway in North England until you get close to Newcastle, but the roads from Newcastle heading south are huge motorways.   Shows the priorities: they've got money for roads but they spend it to get south rather than north.  The whole of England's transport network is about getting people to the South East.

14
In reply to summo:

> Ferries: transport is devolved, the decision and funds for Edinburgh trams, buying back Skye Bridge, or Sturgeon's bizarre Prestwick project etc... are all Holyrood led.

You know what: they are all pretty successful.  Far more successful than any transport project Boris has ever touched.

Crossrail, HS2, his stupid airport, 3rd runway for Heathrow.  All total f*cking disasters.

Edinburgh trams - working fine.  Skye Bridge - hugely successful.   Ferries to the islands - yeah, people complain and there is a need for a transition to green fuels but they basically work.

> You can't blame London. Build your port and see what happens. 

It's about money.  London controls the money and shitheads like Johnson can spend what they like on a whim.  38 billion for f*cking test and trace.  Lets have a bridge to Ireland.  Scotland needs to control its own money and access EU programs again.   The EU did far more for Scotland's infrastructure than Westminster ever did.

16
 Robert Durran 15 Aug 2021
In reply to summo:

> Or the fact that M74 to Scotland was done nearly 30 years ago, while the north east still waits for the A1, A66 etc.. granted they have just done the last section of A1 past scotch corner.

You do realise the A1 continues to Scotland, so the last bit is far from done. Kind of proves Tom's point.

4
 summo 16 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Scotland spent a ton of money making the road from Edinburgh south towards Newcastle fairly good.

Since when? What sections?

>  but the roads from Newcastle heading south are huge motorways.

Nope, much of it wasn't even motorway until very recently, just glorified dangerous A road, with junctions direct onto it at 90 degrees, no slip road, 2 lanes and no hard shoulder....

 >  Shows the priorities

Indeed it does, A1 become proper motorway 2019. M74 compete 1992 or 93? 

1
 summo 16 Aug 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> You do realise the A1 continues to Scotland, so the last bit is far from done. Kind of proves Tom's point.

Yes, driven it dozens if not hundreds of times. It's still dire and under funded. The m74 was still completed 30 years ago. 

 summo 16 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

So you admit transport is devolved and if there was a business case the snp could have already built another port, Westminster isn't stopping them. 

In reply to summo:

> Since when? What sections?

The road between Edinburgh and the English border is pretty much all dual carriageway a fair bit of it almost motorway standard.  As soon as you cross into England it becomes single carriageway.

1
 summo 16 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The road between Edinburgh and the English border is pretty much all dual carriageway a fair bit of it almost motorway standard.  As soon as you cross into England it becomes single carriageway.

Exactly. Scotland is getting all the money! The uk tax payers have funded your motorways and the English side is left with the a1, a66 etc.. 

7
In reply to summo:

> So you admit transport is devolved and if there was a business case the snp could have already built another port, Westminster isn't stopping them. 

It doesn't matter what is devolved when Westminster controls the money.  Scotland isn't allowed to borrow or print money and now it is cut off from EU funding.  

There is a business case now because of Brexit.  Whether there was a business case in the past is irrelevant.   There is no way Westminster would allow Scotland to spend substantial amounts of money on infrastructure whose purpose is to prepare for independence and facilitate the breakup of the UK.  They'd block it, if necessary by passing a law in Westminster.  

8
 summo 16 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Are Scottish East Coast ports currently operating at max capacity? 

In reply to summo:

> Are Scottish East Coast ports currently operating at max capacity? 

Hold on a sec,  I'll check for you.   

Hmmm.... looks like there's a berth free in Leith for Thursday but you'll have to move fast if you want it.

3
 Fat Bumbly2 16 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

As soon as you pass Dunbar.  Couple of short A9 style dual carriageway bits until the Border…. ie just like Northumberland

 summo 16 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

 what you're saying is you want Scotland to have more ferry capacity, but don't have a clue if currently facilities are fully utilised? 

1
 summo 16 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> It doesn't matter what is devolved when Westminster controls the money.  Scotland isn't allowed to borrow or print money and now it is cut off from EU funding.  

> There is a business case now because of Brexit.  Whether there was a business case in the past is irrelevant.   There is no way Westminster would allow Scotland to spend substantial amounts of money on infrastructure whose purpose is to prepare for independence and facilitate the breakup of the UK.  They'd block it, if necessary by passing a law in Westminster.  

Seems like all the above is b*llocks, there is no funding issue, Grangemouth in the last 5 years has funded and expanded it's rail hub and refrigerated services at the port and they aren't at capacity. 

 neilh 16 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You could easily have applied for ERF money for improved transport links and ...nothing happened..... ERF funding was designed for the purpose of improving infrastructure( it was money for nothing so to speak). More likely there is not a serious  business case to be had for improving  a port on the East coast of Scotland to off load cargo etc.

I suspect that is the real issue, you simply do not generate enough cargo traffic to justify it. That will probably not change as your future  growth will be in services and not shipping cars and other good etc out to EU.Cargo traffic has to work both ways.

A few kyaks or consumer goods does not really make a good business model.

1
 65 16 Aug 2021
In reply to summo:

> Exactly. Scotland is getting all the money! The uk tax payers have funded your motorways and the English side is left with the a1, a66 etc.. 

You’d clearly be better off without us.

1
 scratcher 16 Aug 2021
In reply to 65:

> You’d clearly be better off without us.

You'd clearly be much worse off without us.

 65 16 Aug 2021
In reply to scratcher:

> You'd clearly be much worse off without us.

I’d have given that some consideration 5years ago. 

1
In reply to neilh:

> I suspect that is the real issue, you simply do not generate enough cargo traffic to justify it. That will probably not change as your future  growth will be in services and not shipping cars and other good etc out to EU.Cargo traffic has to work both ways.

Scotland has half a million more people than Ireland.   Ireland's new ferries are going gangbusters since Brexit because they can't be arsed transiting through England and their shops are full.

This is the normal English, anti-Scotland bullshit.  "Oh your too small, nothing you could do will ever work, you really need us."  It was nonsense when the English said it to the US, Ireland, India, Singapore and a ton of other countries that told them to p*ss off and it is still nonsense.

6
 neilh 16 Aug 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You already have decent ports through ABP, they will know the freight numbers etc.It is really not hard to figure out. The physical goods imported/exported will barely change in or out.Grangemouth and bulk carriers are probably your most important physical goods exported and that is already set up.

So I am not really sure where this huge increase in requirement for shipping will come from. Is Scotland going to rapidly set up some  some new car or industrial manufacturing capability?Doubt it.You are hardly going to be exporting more sheep--live animal exports is on the way out.

Most of its export business is to/from England. That is not going to change.

You can easily ship from Europe to through England via bonded means to avid duty.

The business case collapses, never mind the rhetoric.

Your growth will be in services and possibly tourism. Thats what you should focus on.Not p####g in an area where there is no future money.

Post edited at 16:47
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