Scary numbers in teacher training.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 mutt 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

It's not really news that physics graduates don't apply to be teachers. They have been avoiding the profession for 20years in favour of working in the finance industry. 

OP Offwidth 01 Dec 2022
In reply to mutt:

It is if numbers have dropped again from a low level. Not every physics grad is going to be chasing money over contribution to society.

Post edited at 14:52
5
 Luke90 01 Dec 2022
In reply to mutt:

I'm a Physics grad and went into teaching (never even considered finance). But I left teaching after ten years. Partly because it fundamentally didn't suit my strengths but also because the profession was becoming less and less appealing by any metric you choose to consider. Largely thanks to directions the government were pushing things in. It's no surprise that teacher recruitment is in a dire state and no comfort to point out that it's been that way for a while.

Quite how the government think that undermining education (not to mention everything else they're screwing up) will lead to growth and a high-wage economy is beyond me. A cynic might suggest they know full well it won't and are lying through their teeth.

 spenser 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

There are quite a few jobs about where they can make a huge contribution to society with a wage that will leave teaching salaries in the dust with far less stress.

I can't think of a single project I have worked on which the government would not define as "contributing to society" and I can't imagine I would have been as well paid at any point in the last 7 years. We have definitely talked about my difficulties in the workplace, however I can't imagine they would have been any less if I was a teacher, they would likely have been worse if my observations in my school days were anything to go by.

OP Offwidth 01 Dec 2022
In reply to spenser:

Sure... the idea physics grads all run for the money is what annoyed me.

 RobAJones 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Predictable after the slight increase in recruitment due to covid. The problem of recruitment in shortage subjects has been going on for at least 10 years, schools have been using non specialists, unqualified teachers, HLTA's and senior staff to fill the gaps for years. As usual the problem is more acute in deprived areas. To be honest I actually think retention is a much bigger problem. IME, pay is sometimes a reason for leaving, but workload and stress are far more common. I did a session with 12 NQT's (or whatever the correct term is now)  12 months ago. Ten of them were already think of leaving after less than a term, five did after only teaching for a year. 

 mutt 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> Not every physics grad is going to be chasing money over contribution to society.

Absolutely, my wife is a physics teacher and absolutely loves the diverse but always engaging activities she undertakes in teaching. I am a physics graduate and sometimes I wish I hadn't followed the money. But I don't know whether that is ever understood on the day of graduation when tempting offers from high paying city firms come.

OP Offwidth 01 Dec 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

I taught quite a few degree students who transferred to STEM teacher training as graduates and about half didn't last ...and none of the academics who wanted a career change.... just too hard. In UK universities we have overseas staff filling any recruitment gaps.

OP Offwidth 01 Dec 2022
In reply to mutt:

I'm sure it works both ways.  A teaching career is harder than it once was, much more significantly less well paid than other Physics graduate offers and the pension has got worse.

 Duncan Bourne 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

I find it interesting that whenever people talk about recruitment for certain jobs (teaching, NHS) they always gravitate to the money angle, as if extra cash would solve the problem. Throughout my life I have sometimes deliberately turned down the jobs with more money because of the extra stress involved. As you say money isn't everything.

1
 hang_about 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

We run a scheme where our UG students can do a module where they prepare and deliver classes in local schools, as well as some pedagogic stuff. It's designed to let them know whether teacher training is right for them (and to give a boost to their CVs). A fair few run for the hills once they've experienced it (and those that don't know what they are getting into to). It's not an easy choice.

 RobAJones 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> I taught quite a few degree students who transferred to STEM teacher training as graduates and about half didn't last ..

Which is probably partly due to the fact that for the last decade at least, in order to recruit as many as possible, they will be automatically accepted even though some are obviously not suitable. I can remember interviewing for Lancaster Uni. in the early 2000's then having a STEM degree was no guarantee of getting a TT place. 

>and none of the academics who wanted a career change.... just too hard.

I only came across three people who made that change, only one started teaching in a secondary school and they only lasted a year 

>In UK universities we have overseas staff filling any recruitment gaps.

Around 2014 we recruited three teachers from Canada, two science one maths to fill long term gaps. We also had a couple of MFL teachers from the EU at the time, for some reason they went home in 2016.

1
 Toerag 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> I find it interesting that whenever people talk about recruitment for certain jobs (teaching, NHS) they always gravitate to the money angle, as if extra cash would solve the problem. Throughout my life I have sometimes deliberately turned down the jobs with more money because of the extra stress involved. As you say money isn't everything.

Unfortunately the rising cost of housing means that money is far more important than it once was.  In more and more parts of the country it's necessary for both partners to have to work to afford a house. Basic salary is what mortgages get given on, so jobs providing more of that are what people go for. Stable jobs and good pensions mean nothing when it comes down to buying a house, salary is king.

2
OP Offwidth 01 Dec 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

Not so in the cases I knew: we had various in-course initiatives to improve the links to our post grad teacher training (how I knew them,  as I actively supported that route). They were all able, aware and keen.

 Luke90 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Throughout my life I have sometimes deliberately turned down the jobs with more money because of the extra stress involved.

Trading off lower pay for less stress is a completely logical approach and something I'm sure many people do. The trouble is that in teaching and many other public sector roles, the offer seems to be lower pay for more stress. I definitely had less stress and more money almost immediately on leaving teaching for a new career.

 neilh 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

A better title would be scary numbers in all sectors whether it be teachers ,nurses, software developers, lorry drivers and so on 

The list is very long.  Demographic time bomb  is a driver.Some  of it is just poor planning 

But not as bad as say Germany ( the forecast shortages there are mind boggling) or China. 

 TobyA 01 Dec 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

> >and none of the academics who wanted a career change.... just too hard.

> I only came across three people who made that change, only one started teaching in a secondary school and they only lasted a year 

I was basically an under-/unemployed- academic (it changed from time to time for a couple of years after a decade in one research institute) before doing teacher training in 2014/15. I'm still teaching although interestingly I know a reasonable number of people I trained with, from other backgrounds, aren't anymore.

> Around 2014 we recruited three teachers from Canada, two science one maths to fill long term gaps. We also had a couple of MFL teachers from the EU at the time, for some reason they went home in 2016.

From what I've seen MFL departments would collapse if it wasn't for young to youngish - "EU" women. This doesn't seem to be stopping since Brexit although I don't know if it is a national phenomenon.

OP Offwidth 01 Dec 2022
In reply to TobyA:

My humble apologies ...I somehow forgot I do know one...too myopic on my own institution

 TobyA 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Luke90:

> The trouble is that in teaching and many other public sector roles, the offer seems to be lower pay for more stress.

Yeah, I always laugh bitterly when someone from the govt yet again says that all teachers will soon start on 30k a year. They've been saying that for about the 5 or 6 years it took me to start earning over 30k.

It looks like we'll strike in the new year as the pay offer for this year is in real terms quite a hefty pay cut.

On stress, the hours can still get silly although it's got much better for me in recent years where I've got more resources and some confidence to just say no to doing pointless things - although that can still be difficult as it's a relatively hierarchical profession compared to what I've seen previously. But the biggest thing for me, and talking to teachers elsewhere it seems it's not just me, is behaviour which has got way more extreme post COVID. It's just draining taking abuse continually, and seeing lesson after lesson disrupted by kids who while not fitting into school environments just don't have any alternatives. 

 RobAJones 01 Dec 2022
In reply to TobyA:

> I was basically an under-/unemployed- academic (it changed from time to time for a couple of years after a decade in one research institute) before doing teacher training in 2014/15.

My sample was only 3 and a couple were arrogant as well as being useless. One is the only student teacher  I can rember actually refusing to help a student during an observed lesson. But I plead guilty to implying an unfair generalisation based on too little information. 

>I'm still teaching

Mainly A level if I remember previous posts correctly? 

>although interestingly I know a reasonable number of people I trained with, from other backgrounds, aren't anymore.

I'd say previous experience of working/dealing with kids is a plus in the longevity box. 

> From what I've seen MFL departments would collapse if it wasn't for young to youngish - "EU" women.

For me the appointments highlighted the different  amount of paperwork required, at the time, depending on whether they were from the EU or not 

>This doesn't seem to be stopping since Brexit although I don't know if it is a national phenomenon.

Hopefully not, again personal experience, the referendum giving some parents (and a couple of TA's!!) a platform to articulate their dislike of foreigners. 

1
 Duncan Bourne 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Luke90:

I agree that very often lower pay equates with greater stress in some industries.

 TobyA 01 Dec 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

> Mainly A level if I remember previous posts correctly? 

This year probably about 2/3rds of my teaching is to 12s and 13s but my form are 7s and I still have the delight of teaching some Y7, 8 and 9 groups each day. Keeps you on your toes!

 Duncan Bourne 01 Dec 2022
In reply to Toerag:

I agree money is important and it is very often the norm for both partners to work, but there must be thousands who have low paid jobs and still run a family and a home. Bus drivers, gardeners, litter pickers, shop workers, cleaners, etc. May be they have more than one job too. I know plenty of people in these jobs who have terrace houses they have morgages on. Admittedly I live in a low cost area of the country where you can still get a house for under £100,000.

What I am really saying is that from an employer's point of view if a job is not recruiting because it is stressful it might be an idea to address that. I agree that pay should reflect the stress of a job (often it doesn't) but setting up a job to fail is not a good long term strategy.

 CantClimbTom 02 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

The logical extension of the current government approach would be to dismantle red tape and open this to the free market and make it more competitive for schools to recruit staff.

For example the shortage of Physics teachers, it's not an equal opportunity to insist they have to have some background in Physics but clearly that would be an advantage for applicants. To drive it by market forces teaching recruitment should be done by a competitive tender. Not insistence on outdated dogma about teacher training.

The cheapest three tenders should be chosen for shortlist. If they any have additional skills such as e.g.  knowledge of Physics or experience with schools that would gain them points. The candidate with the most points should be appointed. Recent convictions or lack of language skills may reduce points depending on employers discretion.

I'll suggest it to Rees-Mogg, he's the kind of chap that can pickup a good idea like this and run with it

There! solved the problem. You can thank me now

1
OP Offwidth 02 Dec 2022
In reply to CantClimbTom:

There are various schemes and significant bursaries already, look at Government or IOP websites for details. The problem is a poor take-up of these opportunities (despite the incentives) alongside too many Physics teachers leaving or retiring early. Setting up a 'market' without enough interest in the job is doomed to fail.

https://www.iop.org/education/how-to-become-physics-teacher

Post edited at 10:10
 Luke90 02 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

I think you might have missed Tom's sarcasm.

 Ridge 02 Dec 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> I find it interesting that whenever people talk about recruitment for certain jobs (teaching, NHS) they always gravitate to the money angle, as if extra cash would solve the problem. Throughout my life I have sometimes deliberately turned down the jobs with more money because of the extra stress involved. As you say money isn't everything.

That is true, but when the lower wage jobs have more stress than the higher wage jobs, which (IMHO) is the case in front line NHS and teaching roles, what else can you do to address the problem? (Obvious answer is much better T&Cs, but that's not going to happen).

 BRILLBRUM 02 Dec 2022
In reply to Ridge:

There's much merit to what you've written but I think that there's a huge difference between career choices, and the amount of stress you're prepared to put-up with relative to the job you do.

In the private sector (I'm in tech so have a limited view, don't come at me) stress/responsibility/accountability is for the most part matched by salary and there are ways of mitigating the stress aspect whilst maintaining salary - perm to contract for instance (though that does bring its own unique stresses). There is also a tipping point where the more senior you become, the less stress you have as you are able to dissipate/delegate that stress down. And salary increases relative to that seniority. 

Teaching for example (I'm married to one) is different, At no point would I say that what I do is a vocation, it's a thing I enjoy doing, being good at, and being paid well for. Generally I do stuff that does not make one iota of a difference to our day to day lives, but I'm paid well for it and you want me/need me (or at least you've been convinced you do) and the market says Brill_Brum is worth it. With vocational career in the caring/support professions (Postie goes in this group to an extent) this path was chosen because people genuinely do want to make a difference, and are not in it for the money. The money aspect however does help, in that the the stress, the out of classroom effort, the stress, the lack of appreciation, the undermining of the profession, the stress, the every changing demands, the worst customer base ever (parents), the admin, the stress, are not represented in the salary. 

Let's put it in to context, and it's an old trope I know, if we paid the people who are the foundation of our day to day life what they are worth, they would be paid a fortune for what they do.

Unless you were a virgin birth, home schooled, self medicate, never needed to call 999, will die in your sleep having been as fit as a fiddle, you are here because of nursing. doctoring, teaching, policing, fire putting-outing you are here because of these fantastic and necessary professions. When push comes to shove, these professions are invaluable , and should be paid their weight in gold, and this in-part will help attract new entrants, and keep those already in-place happy.

There is lots more overhead that needs to be sorted out in these foundational professions to make them as enticing as possible, but the money side of things, that's actually the easy bit and it just takes paying a bit more tax and taking it and distributing it thoughtfully.

Post edited at 12:36
 Ridge 02 Dec 2022
In reply to BRILLBRUM:

I pretty much agree with all of that, (except the money being the easy bit as far as this country is concerned). I'm in awe of people with vocational roles, (Mrs Ridge was a nurse), but I wouldn't put up with half the abuse they get from the public. I just take the money 'the market' is happy to pay me to do boring stuff with a minuscule impact on the world.

 earlsdonwhu 02 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

I taught in secondary schools for 36 years but could not enthusiastically encourage either of my own children to enter the profession. Even if lucky enough to work in a 'pleasant 'school, the behaviour, parental demands, workload, pay etc are all unattractive now.

 nniff 02 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

At the other end of the spectrum, the number of Heads leaving the profession early is unsustainable

 Duncan Bourne 02 Dec 2022
In reply to Ridge:

Oh I agree. But I was tinking of this earlier.

In my work (when I was working full time) they upped pay but cut staff. The result was the targets set could not be achieved and weren't achieved. As this wasn't something that directly affected people (like the NHS etc) we just shrugged and said whatever and batted it back up line. When peoples health/eduction is involved that is a lot more difficut to do.

I think the problem is pay staff more but reduce staff and create a huge backlog, but also treating staff poorly. When we striked (which didn't happen often) it was often less about pay than errosion of terms and conditions. ie working hours, unpaid overtime, micro-managing, removal of break times etc.

 Brass Nipples 02 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Unsustainable workloads, working smarter and harder , reducing head count is a reason many in their 50s left early either early retirement or less stressful part time work.  The employers had their pound of flesh for decades and it resulted in the exodus when people felt they could afford to leave or couldn’t take any more. Not just teaching but many professions.

 Petrafied 03 Dec 2022
In reply to neilh:

> A better title would be scary numbers in all sectors whether it be teachers ,nurses, software developers, lorry drivers and so on 

> The list is very long.  Demographic time bomb  is a driver.Some  of it is just poor planning 

> But not as bad as say Germany ( the forecast shortages there are mind boggling) or China. 

If only there was some way of getting willing groups of younger people to enter the country to fulfill those roles....

2
 gld73 03 Dec 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

8 years ago I decided to have a career change from an enjoyable and well paid engineering job, for no real reason other than I had already moved around within the industry and enjoyed doing different things and now wanted to try other things. I was torn between joining the ambulance service and going into teaching (either physics specifically or all the sciences).

Even expressing interest in becoming a physics teacher with real life experience of physics and engineering meant I was offered various bursaries and incentives to go down that route, whereas as the ambulance service is over-subscribed by applicants. However, having 2 sisters in teaching, one of them warned against it and I went to the ambulance service instead.

Have to say I don't regret it; individual sad or difficult jobs as a paramedic aside, overall I think I'm in a much less stressful role than teaching. I think I'd liked to have been a physics teacher in a bygone era rather than these days!

(As a compromise, I make do with teaching physics to paramedic students I mentor ... a long wait outside hospital is the ideal time to go into full detail about how the SpO2 probe works, with its fascinating use of the absorption of red light and infra-red light to detect oxygenated and deoxygenated haemoglobin...!)

In reply to Offwidth:

My wife and I have run a small,  rural school for the past (nearly) nine years.  During that time, if I can be forgiven for blowing our own trumpets,  we have transformed that school and had an overwhelmingly positive impact on the lives of many,  many children and their families (backed up by Ofsted when they visited yesterday). However,  when I bung my take home pay into an inflation calculator , I am bringing home over £200 less a month than when I started at the school  -  and that is taking into account my incremental pay rises and any (there have been very, very few) cost of living salary increases.  I have no more incremental pay rises to come and the school budget couldn't stretch to cover it if I did.  I love my job but working over 50% more hours each week than I'm paid for, for an increasingly smaller return is not sustainable. 


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...