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Sainsburys telling staff not to use T and T app

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 Baron Weasel 12 Jan 2021

My step daughter caught covid at work at sainsburys along with 14 colleagues a couple of weeks ago and is isolating at the moment. She has received a memo to remove the test and trace app from her phone and not to tell test and trace who she has been working with because they don't want too many staff off?!?

Wtf?? 

In reply to Baron Weasel:

She might want to, in confidence, supply that memo to the Police as it is inciting the commission of a criminal offence?  Or send it to head office who I'm sure won't support it.

Realistically if staff are close enough to trigger the app you probably need to close the whole store for 2 weeks (or bring staff in from elsewhere).

Post edited at 13:01
 didntcomelast 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

I would agree with Neil, pass this on to either the police or track and trace. The large supermarkets are and have been clearly putting profit before people throughout this pandemic and if allowed to continue they will only get worse.

 Jamie Wakeham 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

Going by staff behaviour in my local Sainsbury's - not uncommon to see staff having long chats with no distancing and masks on chins - I'm not that surprised.

 elliot.baker 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

Not sure about this - I saw something similar on FB recently and immediately was like whaat that sounds dodgy, but apparently in work places where you have to keep your phone in a locker (Sainsburies, not sure?) such as nurseries, factories and so forth, the app considers the lengthy close proximity to be a risk so keeps flagging up. I guess you could just turn off bluetooth right? Or just keep the app and turn the phone off. 

On the FB thread loads of people from different employers were all saying the same. 

 graeme jackson 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> She might want to, in confidence, supply that memo to the Police as it is inciting the commission of a criminal offence? 

Just wondering if this can be right when there's no legal requirement to download the app in the first place. 

In reply to graeme jackson:

> Just wondering if this can be right when there's no legal requirement to download the app in the first place.

The app is optional, and the thing about lockers does make sense.  I've turned mine off during (earlier in the year) hotel stays when in my room because Bluetooth will go through a thin wall very easily but COVID doesn't.

The incitement to a criminal offence (albeit not a very easily enforceable one) is the request not to give colleagues' details to Track and Trace.

Post edited at 13:27
 graeme jackson 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

Thanks for the clarification

 neilh 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Does it explain the reasons for doing this?

I would think Sainsburys would unikely step outside the law/guidelines and people often misread and jump to the wrong conclusions.

 Durbs 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

My Mrs has said the same "turn the app off at work" message is common at hospitals too - again where phones are kept in lockers. The app doesn't know this, and just thinks 80 people have been standing next to each other all day, when infact they're PPE'd up, and working in a (relatively) clinically clean environment.

In reply to neilh:

More likely it's a local manager worried about targets.  I very much doubt head office would do that.

 Rob Parsons 12 Jan 2021
In reply to didntcomelast:

> ...The large supermarkets are and have been clearly putting profit before people throughout this pandemic and if allowed to continue they will only get worse.

On what basis do you claim that?

Supermarkets are (obviously) profit-making businesses, but they have to stay open just now since we all have to eat. What are you suggesting they are doing incorrectly, and with what evidence?

 marsbar 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Is she carrying her phone or does she leave it in her locker at work? 

 neilh 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

Mmm.... I am always sceptical about claims like that when it is an HR issue.

 Boy Global Crag Moderator 12 Jan 2021
In reply to elliot.baker: Or allow employees to carry their phones (turned on to silent), so the app can effectively do what it's supposed to!

Post edited at 15:30
 rj_townsend 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

It's common advice to turn off contact tracing on the app when working in some environments - the app can only tell that someone has been in close proximity to someone who has later tested positive, not what mitigation factors have been put in place. For example, the app can't tell if masks have been worn, or if there are thin perspex screens between workers etc.

However, if her employer is telling her to withhold information from T&T, that does sound dodgy.

 Baron Weasel 12 Jan 2021
In reply to marsbar:

> Is she carrying her phone or does she leave it in her locker at work? 

I don't know, the message was relayed to me at work. I'll message her later for more details. 

 deepsoup 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Boy:

> Or allow employees to carry their phones (turned on to silent), so the app can effectively do what it's supposed to!

Sainsbury's employees are allowed to carry their phones on them while they're working.  There's even a Sainsbury's app, a stock control thing, that they're encouraged to download and use.

 deepsoup 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Is she a member of a union?  If not, I'd suggest she should think about joining USDAW immediately.

 Cobra_Head 12 Jan 2021
In reply to didntcomelast:

> The large supermarkets are and have been clearly putting profit before people throughout this pandemic and if allowed to continue they will only get worse.

In what way?

Ours have put in lots of measures to try and keep people safe, they've also managed to keep the supply of food and essentials up to a standard where we're not short of most things. Tesco returned their grant from the government, which it wasn't obliged to do.

 wercat 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

The author of the memo should be named and shamed

In reply to wercat:

I'd not name and shame, but I would be tempted to report it to someone (head office or Police) specifically around the part that is inciting people to break the law (asking them not to give colleagues' details to T&T).

Turning the app off when working with full PPE on is a good point.  But regular T&T is not legally optional.

 Wainers44 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Cobra_Head:

> In what way?

> Ours have put in lots of measures to try and keep people safe, they've also managed to keep the supply of food and essentials up to a standard where we're not short of most things. Tesco returned their grant from the government, which it wasn't obliged to do.

Despite the flog em and burn em attitude from a few on here,  a few others have also given a more accurate picture on this.

Companies have looked at the TT app and given their control measures,  and whether the phones are actually kept with the individuals and guided their staff accordingly. 

Today,  finally, a couple of the big supermarkets,  including Sainsbury have done what they should have in the first place. They have told their customers that if they don't wear masks, they cannot enter the store and put their employees and other customers at risk. Finally sense prevails and I think that now their policy is clear, advertised, and across all their stores the problems for staff dealing with ignorant and difficult customers will reduce.

 jkarran 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

That's a job for the HSE, that's totally unacceptable.

Jk

 Wainers44 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Turning the app off when working with full PPE on is a good point.  But regular T&T is not legally optional.

So having read all your numerous posts about the difference between guidance and the law, can you clarify what you mean by " T&T is not legally optional "?

Thanks. 

 didntcomelast 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Rob Parsons:well the one I work for has had very little input for staff regarding social distancing at work, the management of shopper numbers whilst initially in place in March disappeared in both November and now, the one way systems were not managed properly from day one. Mask enforcement is non existent . We deliver home shopping to an off licence on a twice weekly basis, he quarter fills a van with cheap alcohol and a couple of food items which reduces the number of delivery slots available to others including vulnerable people  when the management were informed of this they said it was against company policy but when they found out how much the guy spent deliveries continue to this day. 

In reply to Wainers44:

> So having read all your numerous posts about the difference between guidance and the law, can you clarify what you mean by " T&T is not legally optional "?

It is an offence, when contacted by Track and Trace following a positive test, not to truthfully give details of your recent close contacts when requested.

This memo appears to specifically incite breaches of that law.

 Yanis Nayu 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

I think sometimes employers legitimately ask staff to switch the app off where mitigation such as Perspex screens or PPE is in place (healthcare settings for example), or where ‘phones are in lockers. Sometimes people list colleagues as contacts even when they’re not because they don’t consider what constitutes a contact properly. What the situation is in your daughter’s case I don’t know, obviously. 

 Wainers44 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It is an offence, when contacted by Track and Trace following a positive test, not to truthfully give details of your recent close contacts when requested.

> This memo appears to specifically incite breaches of that law.

But the OP is about turning the app off, not inciting breaching the law? 

In reply to Wainers44:

"My step daughter caught covid at work at sainsburys along with 14 colleagues a couple of weeks ago and is isolating at the moment. She has received a memo to remove the test and trace app from her phone and not to tell test and trace who she has been working with because they don't want too many staff off?!?"

 Wainers44 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> "My step daughter caught covid at work at sainsburys along with 14 colleagues a couple of weeks ago and is isolating at the moment. She has received a memo to remove the test and trace app from her phone and not to tell test and trace who she has been working with because they don't want too many staff off?!?"

But she is only obliged to speak to them in the circumstances of a positive test?

 Dave the Rave 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

People I work with who have it are now told to turn it off before entering work by T and T.

A healthcarer was positive and had had her phone in work. The app alerted everybody else who had it in in work and they were initially told to go home.

Track and trace decided that as we are socially distancing and wearing PPE then it was unnecessary to go home.

In reply to Wainers44:

> But she is only obliged to speak to them in the circumstances of a positive test?

They wouldn't contact her to ask that in any other case.

In reply to Wainers44:

> Today,  finally, a couple of the big supermarkets,  including Sainsbury have done what they should have in the first place.

The laxest compliance with distancing and mask wearing that I see is from supermarket employees. I think they've got complacent.

 Wainers44 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> They wouldn't contact her to ask that in any other case.

Sorry but I am not at all sure you can work all that out accurately from what's been posted here. 

As others have posted these policies are there for a reason and not to break T&T.

There positive action, following the lead from Morrisons to enforce mask wearing is far more significant than this memo.

 Myr 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> People I work with who have it are now told to turn it off before entering work by T and T.

> A healthcarer was positive and had had her phone in work. The app alerted everybody else who had it in in work and they were initially told to go home.

> Track and trace decided that as we are socially distancing and wearing PPE then it was unnecessary to go home.

Healthcare is a very different workplace scenario to Sainsburys, where workers are wearing the same (or often less) PPE than the public, and therefore Track and Trace is very important.

Post edited at 19:56
 Wainers44 12 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> The laxest compliance with distancing and mask wearing that I see is from supermarket employees. I think they've got complacent.

Totally agree so hopefully this new policy is a step back in the right direction. 

 Bilberry 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

I think I'd want to see some evidence of that before I believed it was Sainsbury's policy.

In reply to Bilberry:

I think it's more likely a misinterpretation (wilful or not) by a local manager.

 Dave the Rave 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Myr:

> Healthcare is a very different workplace scenario to Sainsburys, where workers are wearing the same (or often less) PPE than the public, and therefore Track and Trace is very important.

 Not really. The healthcare’s and other MDT don't need to wear masks in the office that they return to for debrief etc. The rooms are socially distanced so they don’t need to.

We have to wear masks in vehicles and communal spaces.

 didntcomelast 12 Jan 2021
In reply to didntcomelast:

Sorry doing this whilst at work. To continue. All staff at our supermarket who were in work through the first lockdown received a bonus payment as a thank you from the company. I’m a delivery driver, each month if we drive safely without harsh acceleration or braking and no engine idling we have received a monthly bonus in the form of vouchers to spend in store. That is worth about £200 a year, it’s been stopped. No reason given.
We also had a staff share scheme. Buy shares out of your monthly wage and the company will boost them after 2 yrs. that’s been stopped now. 

in 2019 I would fill my van with about 600kg of shopping and be out delivering from 3-9pm. At the start of the panic buying and increase in deliveries that doubled and is still, fill the van out for 3 back for 6, refill and out for 7 back for 10. Effectively doubling the workload. I still get my £9 and hour though which is the same as a checkout operator. 
So when I say profit before people I do so from inside. The supermarkets have made huge profits on the backs of their workforce and sadly given very little in return. 

Post edited at 20:11
 jkarran 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Wainers44:

> Sorry but I am not at all sure you can work all that out accurately from what's been posted here. 

The OP says the step daughter tested positive and has been told, by work not to cooperate with T&T in order to minimise staff disruption. That's utterly reckless and the HSE would be interested, that is not a 'covid secure' way of working, it puts workers and customers at risk of preventable serious harm.

> As others have posted these policies are there for a reason and not to break T&T.

The phone/app isn't the issue, it's the non-cooperation. 

Jk

 Wainers44 12 Jan 2021
In reply to jkarran:

If exactly as outlined then yes I agree with you there is something very wrong. Encouraging the non reporting of covid in the workplace is illegal. I cannot believe this is a sainsbury policy issue though,  they wouldn't be so stupid I don't think. And the switching off of the app isn't automatically illegal or wrong.

 Bilberry 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I think it's more likely a misinterpretation (wilful or not) by a local manager.


Hmm.  I'd probably go for:

- Internet myth - 70%

- Maximally unfavourable interpretation of ambiguous memo - 25%

- Rogue manager exceeding authority - 4.999999999%

- Plc policy - 0.0000000001%

 Rob Parsons 12 Jan 2021
In reply to didntcomelast:

> So when I say profit before people I do so from inside.

Ok noted; thanks for the replies.

My own experience is as a customer only.

 didntcomelast 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Can you tell it’s a bit of a sore point.  

 Mike505 14 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

My company has done similar as mesures taken at work are deed by management to be sufficient. I don't think anyone has complied tbh.

 Pedro50 14 Jan 2021
In reply to didntcomelast:

I had my one and only delivery in December when I had Covid. The guy turned up at 9.45 pm. I gave him a fiver, he looked amazed and tried to decline it but I stood my ground and said he deserved it. 

 didntcomelast 14 Jan 2021
In reply to Pedro50:

That’s because it’s drummed into us all not to take tips which the company view as one step away from a hanging offence.  What has surprised us all is that Morrison’s have announced a £10 minimum wage, scary stuff, be interesting to see if the others do something similar. I won’t hold my breath. 

 Pedro50 14 Jan 2021
In reply to didntcomelast:

Well I'm sorry that as a one time recipient I didn't understand the strict etiquet. No matter.

In reply to Pedro50:

Please don’t stop offering the tips unless you are a secret shopper. We tend to only put up limited resistance but believe it or not most supermarkets employ customers to test delivery drivers covertly, they either have people under 25 or appearing to be under 25 answering the door and we as drivers have to go through a series of checks before delivery as certain items are flagged as restricted, alcohol and knives for example but also washing up brushes and baking trays, make what you will of that! They also have the customer offer us tips which we should always refuse politely, it’s a potential sacking matter if we accept. It’s not so bad with our regular customers who we get to know we’ll, it’s the one off purchasers that are the most risky because there’s no history with them. 

Who would have thought there could be so much excitement and risk in a grocery delivery? 

 Pedro50 17:54 Fri
In reply to didntcomelast:

Very interesting. I now understand the sensitivity of accepting especially as I was a one time user. Fortunately I am not a mystery shopper and am slightly over 25. Hopefully the delivery guy rested easily in his bed. 

Post edited at 17:57
 stp 19:42 Sat
In reply to Baron Weasel:

I spoke to a friend who works in the Post Office who was also told to turn the app off. I got the impression it was as much about not getting any money as anything. If the thing goes off you have to take time off and won't get paid.

And apparently the Police have been told similar.


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