UKH

Round the bstards up - NI

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Scenes in NI. Both sides being shit. Why aren't the police/army rounding up the wankers at each end and bringing them in. FFS, a bus was molotov'd whilst moving. What the hell is going on?

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Sadly, this has always been just under the surface. The effects of Brexit and Covid have just fanned the flames.  Thankfully the Army no longer have to patrol those streets.

 marsbar 08 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Oh I thought you meant the lying politicians who put the Good Friday agreement at risk.

 Graeme G 08 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

And what would you propose doing with them once corralled?

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Seriously quiet media on this, depressing/sinister.

But I guess depressing/sinister is the "new normal" since the 2019 election.

 Hooo 08 Apr 2021
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Nothing new there, they've always been quiet about NI. My in-laws lived in NI, when I first started going there I couldn't believe all the shit that was going on. Stuff that would be headline news on the mainland was barely mentioned on the news.

 Maggot 08 Apr 2021
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

>  The effects of Brexit and Covid have just fanned the flames.  

Hmmmm? Whatever.

The footage I've seen has been a bunch of mindless dickhead yoofs going way over the top, who most likely don't even know what Brexit and Covid are.
The question is, what started it?

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Scenes in NI. Both sides being shit. Why aren't the police/army rounding up the wankers at each end and bringing them in. FFS, a bus was molotov'd whilst moving. What the hell is going on?

I think they already tried using the army in Northern Ireland and it didn't work out.

What's going on is the loyalists have noticed that the Tories have sold them out because Brexit was more important than keeping control of an enclave in Ireland.

In reply to marsbar:

> Oh I thought you meant the lying politicians who put the Good Friday agreement at risk.

If the cap fits...

In reply to Maggot:

> >  The effects of Brexit and Covid have just fanned the flames.  

> Hmmmm? Whatever.

> The footage I've seen has been a bunch of mindless dickhead yoofs going way over the top, who most likely don't even know what Brexit and Covid are.

> The question is, what started it?

This, and who is fanning the flames, on both sides?

In reply to Maggot:

> a bunch of mindless dickhead yoofs going way over the top, who most likely don't even know what Brexit and Covid are.

Yes, that sounds most likely.

> The question is, what started it?

Here's some information:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge_zY1_1nds&ab_channel=TLDRNews

In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Seriously quiet media on this, depressing/sinister.

There has just been a good item on Newsnight.

 muppetfilter 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Seriously quiet media on this, depressing/sinister.

Not the Daily Mail, they blamed the EU today  and the Gammon will swallow it. Despite the last four years of people pointing this problem out or the pre referendum “Project fear” . The greased piglet Johnson just won’t take responsibility 

 Trevers 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Maggot:

> >  The effects of Brexit and Covid have just fanned the flames.  

> Hmmmm? Whatever.

> The footage I've seen has been a bunch of mindless dickhead yoofs going way over the top, who most likely don't even know what Brexit and Covid are.

Just because the dickhead yoofs probably don't have nuanced political opinions, doesn't mean politics isn't an underlying cause. Do you think this would be happening if we were still in the CU/SM?

In reply to muppetfilter:

>  The greased piglet Johnson just won’t take responsibility 

Johnson is already on the case.  Following the diplomatic triumph of his Erdogan limerick and the success of the 'verminous Scots' poem he's working on an amusing verse to break the tension in NI.

So far he just has the first line: "There once was a Dutch king called Billy"

In reply to marsbar:

> Oh I thought you meant the lying politicians who put the Good Friday agreement at risk.

Ursula von Lying, she was happy to break it for the vaccine? 

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

There will always be fighting in NI because it's stoked by the leaders on both sides, many old guard never retired despite the agreement. The sinn fien/ ira funeral last year is just an excuse they were looking for. 

Better to let Ireland have it, then it'll be a Dublin problem, not London, because either way somebody won't be happy. 

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Scenes in NI. Both sides being shit. Why aren't the police/army rounding up the wankers at each end and bringing them in. FFS, a bus was molotov'd whilst moving. What the hell is going on?

Im not sure why this garnered so many dislikes. Im wholly apolitical on the matter. I'm simply saying that you have a bunch of criminals out on the streets pelting the police with missiles, causing mayhem and setting fire to a moving bus.

If I popped into town, smashed up the odd car, threw a few stones at a PC and torched a moving vehicle of public transportation,  I would be in the clink in a jiffy.

And where the frig are the parents of these, largely young, scumbags?

 DaveHK 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Im not sure why this garnered so many dislikes.

Perhaps because suggesting sending in the army shows a lack of understanding of the history and current situation in NI?

Post edited at 07:30
In reply to summo:

Frankly, Summo, I'm stunned by the shallowness of your response to this huge problem, and your pretence (surely) that you do not know the immediate cause of the last 11 days of violence in NI.

 elsewhere 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Im not sure why this garnered so many dislikes. Im wholly apolitical on the matter. I'm simply saying...

"Apolitical" and "simply" don't communicate you are aware of a complicated political, sectarian, international, personal, historical and criminal situation in the aftermath of terrorism. 

Post edited at 07:45
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Frankly, Summo, I'm stunned by the shallowness of your response to this huge problem, and your pretence (surely) that you do not know the immediate cause of the last 11 days of violence in NI.

What's the answer then. For many it's a black and white position. Living together peaceful isn't their desire. 

Many of the current leaders don't want integration. So the next generation still live apart, schooled apart, so in 20 years time things won't be any better. 

The current position isn't the fault of any adult in power today, there are adults on both sides who need to grow up and learn the meaning of tolerance. 

Post edited at 07:54
 tomsan91 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I think they tried that once, stuck them all in the crumlin road gaol, didn't work out too well if I recall correctly. Nobody wants to give the unionist paramilitary organisations an excuse. 

Post edited at 08:05
In reply to summo: 

> there are adults on both sides who need to grow up and learn the meaning of tolerance. 

Something they'd been managing to do, grudgingly, since the GFA. Then along comes a border that was promised wouldn't happen. 

Post edited at 08:13
In reply to summo:

> Better to let Ireland have it, then it'll be a Dublin problem, not London, because either way somebody won't be happy. 

It'd stay a Dublin problem for as long as the unionist /loyalist para's decided to start looking at who betrayed them. 

Post edited at 08:21

Brilliant thread on Twitter by Patrick Kielty from 2018 that explains the fundamentals: https://twitter.com/PatricKielty/status/1045782711816708096

"Dear @BorisJohnson

There is no better Brexit when it comes to the Good Friday Agreement and Northern Ireland. As you still seem bamboozled by all this Paddywackery here’s a few pointers for your next stab in the dark.

Northern Ireland is made up of a majority of Unionists (as in the Conservative and Unionist Party) and, believe it or not, a rather large minority of Nationalists (as in Irish Nationalists). These Irish Nationalists don’t see themselves as British but rather inconveniently as Irish (who knew?). 

For over 30 years we killed each other because of these differences which means Northern Ireland is nothing like Camden or Westminster. 

The Good Friday Agreement ended that violence by the following devious magic. Unionists were guaranteed that Northern Ireland would be part of the UK until the majority voted otherwise. The Irish was border was removed and the island linked so Nationalists could pretend they were already living in a United Ireland (yes, Tony Blair did slight of hand much better than you). Some of these Nationalists then accepted being part of the UK as their day to day lives were essentially Irish. This cunning plan was sold to us on the basis that we were all part of the EU therefore fixation on nationality was so last World War. Implementing the Good Friday Agreement was torturous (think Brexit with actual bombs, not metaphorical suicide vests) but we finally made peace. Yet 20 years later NI remains a divided society. 

Thanks to your glorious Brexit vision Northern Ireland will become more divided as some form of economic border checks will become part of daily lives. If those checks take place between NI and Ireland, the Nationalists who were once happy being part of the UK will change their mind. If they take place in the Irish Sea some Unionists will be livid. However they'll still support being part of the UK (the clue is in the Unionist bit). Your Brexit lies have opened a Pandora’s box for Northern Ireland. It's one reason why the majority of people in NI voted to remain in the EU (almost as if they knew more about the fragile equilibrium of their politics than you)

Barely mentioned before Brexit, a border poll is now inevitable thanks to your monumental ignorance. When that poll is eventually held the Nationalists who were once content being part of a Northern Ireland within the UK and EU will vote to leave the UK to feel as Irish and European as they did before Brexit. The poll will be much closer thanks to your Brexit folly and could easily be lost by Unionists, breaking up the UK. Any break up of the Union will be your fault (a tad inconvenient as a member of the Conservative and er, Unionist party). The EU is not responsible for your blundering lack of foresight. Like most people in Northern Ireland they were happy with the status quo. 

By the time the penny drops that you can’t preserve the Union you want without the one you don’t, it will be too late. You will be remembered not as the Churchillian visionary you delude yourself to be but the ignoramus who triggered the break up of the UK. If there’s any justice all this will come to pass when you're Prime Minister so you can finally swim in the constitutional sewage you've created (though we all know you’ll be in Nice with your trotters up). Meantime, if you’re so concerned about keeping Northern Ireland totally aligned with the rest of the UK where’s your support for our same sex marriage and women’s right to choose? Your silence is deafening."

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> Something they'd been managing to do, grudgingly, since the GFA. Then along comes a border that was promised wouldn't happen. 

Something most have been managing, not all. You'd be mistaken if thought it's been peace for years, folk have been hurt still, killed, many innocent, it's just less of it and not reported so much. You may recall the journalist who got shot in broad daylight. 

You have to think what kind of people condition kids as young as 11 or 12 to act like this, there are terrorists on both sides, conditioning the next generation. The adults(on both sides) responsible should be in jail. 

In reply to summo:

> Something most have been managing, not all. You'd be mistaken if thought it's been peace for years, folk have been hurt still, killed, many innocent, it's just less of it and not reported so much. You may recall the journalist who got shot in broad daylight. 

> You have to think what kind of people condition kids as young as 11 or 12 to act like this, there are terrorists on both sides, conditioning the next generation. The adults(on both sides) responsible should be in jail. 

Where to start? Actually not sure there's much point if you can't see the difference pre and post the GFA.

Of course anyone who thought that attitudes would change within one generation had their head up their arses. But change had started. 

In reply to DaveHK:

> Perhaps because suggesting sending in the army shows a lack of understanding of the history and current situation in NI?

I understand fully. However,  in the here and now, police and people (on both sides) are in danger. Does it take a death to deal with this?

 digby 09 Apr 2021
In reply to ericinbristol:

You can't blame Boris alone. You have to add in all the baying brexiters in the Tory party who he played to/appeased. It was a group effort.

Post edited at 08:44
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I understand fully. However,  in the here and now, police and people (on both sides) are in danger. Does it take a death to deal with this?

What do you think the republican response would be if the British army rocked up? 

In reply to elsewhere:

> "Apolitical" and "simply" don't communicate you are aware of a complicated political, sectarian, international, personal, historical and criminal situation in the aftermath of terrorism. 

Im perfectly aware but I stand by my comments. These youngsters have no idea of the real past, only of a past twisted by elders (on both sides - Im wholly apolitical as I said). What I see are crimes, committed by criminals and it seems many seem happy to explain/excuse because things are complicated. Pfft!

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> What do you think the republican response would be if the British army rocked up? 

Maybe the British and Irish forces should join forces and show solidarity against the baying mob. Hey, of course I'm  shooting from the hip and I dont have the answer - perhaps Off-Duty could furnish us with a police perspective - but I see criminals who need to be dealt with as I would be if I torched my local area and threw rocks/pallets at the local squad car.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Im perfectly aware but I stand by my comments. These youngsters have no idea of the real past, only of a past twisted by elders (on both sides - Im wholly apolitical as I said). What I see are crimes, committed by criminals and it seems many seem happy to explain/excuse because things are complicated. Pfft!

Last time things were "complicated" we had bombings on the mainland. But sure, boots on the ground always solves the problem. 

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Maybe the British and Irish forces should join forces and show solidarity against the baying mob. Hey, of course I'm  shooting from the hip and I dont have the answer - perhaps Off-Duty could furnish us with a police perspective - but I see criminals who need to be dealt with as I would be if I torched my local area and threw rocks/pallets at the local squad car.

When you say Irish forces please tell me you don't mean IDF (from the Republic)? If you mean NI forces, that is the British army essentially.

Those criminals (and I'll concede they are) aren't some tin pot protesters. They're backed by some truly horrendous people. The police and security services know full well doing what you propose would turn nasty, very quickly. 

Post edited at 08:54
 DaveHK 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I understand fully. However,  in the here and now, police and people (on both sides) are in danger. Does it take a death to deal with this?

A heavy handed police and army response is a surefire route to an escalation of violence and deaths.

 mik82 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

The history of "sending in the army" in NI suggests this would be a very bad idea. It took about 30 years until the Good Friday Agreement from when the army were sent in before.

It may be young people doing this, but from what I've read they're being encouraged by older generations. The government was warned about Brexit leading to increased tensions, but as with a lot of things they chose to ignore it.

In reply to DaveHK:

> A heavy handed police and army response is a surefire route to an escalation of violence and deaths.

Who said heavy handed. I meant proportionate to the crimes being committed.

 DaveHK 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Who said heavy handed. I meant proportionate to the crimes being committed.

If you think using the army to deal with crime is proportionate then that puts you in some pretty unpleasant company!

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Who said heavy handed. I meant proportionate to the crimes being committed.

Because Ireland.

Because barely suppressed sectarian/paramilitary tension.

Post edited at 09:05
 tomsan91 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I think it would be good for you to visit NI after travel restrictions are lifted, plenty of ways to build up a better picture of what happened during the troubles and how society is still impacted by sectarian problems. From that you will understand why public disorder is difficult to put down even for the PSNI (who are probably one of the leading police forces in the world for dealing with civil unrest). 

 DaveHK 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> These youngsters have no idea of the real past, only of a past twisted by elders 

Some of the people doing this twisting would like nothing more than for the police and army to act as you have suggested. It would give them the excuse they needed to escalate the violence.

 mondite 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> What do you think the republican response would be if the British army rocked up? 

If they were carefully tasked to just deal with the current set of muppets possibly just piss themselves with laughter and demand the "loyalists" rename themselves if they attack the army?

Childish but I did find it amusing when one of the DUP politicans claimed the PSNI was operating a two tier system favouring the nationalists. Wonder if they complained when there was no doubt in the RUC case.

 wercat 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

If it goes like 1969 (I was 13 when those scenes that are replaying now were on in black and white TV) they will be trying to goad a response like send the troops in.  All it takes is the history of the past 50 years to be forgotten by some child politicians with a big project built of lies

The familiarity of these scenes thinking of 1969 (and the knowledge that this was easily predictable but ignored by the oven ready dealcookers, bad actors like Cummings and lying demagogues like Farage ) makes me despair.  All the hope of Good Friday ignored for a benefit like Brexit.

I suppose the cost of security operations can be recovered from the people responsible for Brexit (including sequestering DUP funds as they were the cog that turned the big Tory Brexit wheel)

Post edited at 09:24
In reply to DaveHK:

> If you think using the army to deal with crime is proportionate then that puts you in some pretty unpleasant company!

If you read my OP l suggested police or army. 

I have been to NI many times and I appreciate the difficulties. Nevertheless, I guess my perspective is that if I was the policeman in the car at the wrong end of a missile,  my objective would be to identify the perp and being him (they are mostly him) to justice.

Judging by the responses I guess my worldview is a bit too black or white to be involved in this discussion so I will leave it here but with a further confirmation that my OP is non political.  I see bad, very bad, on both sides.

 Trangia 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

It's utterly depressing, and so deep routed in history that there seems to be no solution. The Brexit deal has just fanned the smouldering flames. The rioters are barely more than kids. How do you educate kids to understand tolerance of other's beliefs when their parents and grandparents are so full of blinkered historical hatred? 

 Ian W 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Maybe the British and Irish forces should join forces and show solidarity against the baying mob. Hey, of course I'm  shooting from the hip and I dont have the answer - perhaps Off-Duty could furnish us with a police perspective - but I see criminals who need to be dealt with as I would be if I torched my local area and threw rocks/pallets at the local squad car.

Lets all just take a moment to consider the potential implications of the Republic of Ireland security forces, whether the Garda or the Military, operating within another sovereign nation..........after being invited there by the UK Government led by the Conservative and Unionist Party (I cant believer this would be delegated to Stormont under devolved powers......).

Shooting from the hip? Put the gun down, and sober up sharpish, Mr Baker!

Post edited at 09:34
 wercat 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

there is a chilling feel to these pictures of the beginning of operation Banner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLBgBBO3eqU&

Once you get troops into an urban environment it is incredibly easy to set up provocative incidents, to kill soldiers and evoke a predictable military response.  The troops can be studied, watched, ambushes set up based on observed behavioural patterns.  It took from 1969 to the Good Friday agreement for sanity to return and now the Brexit Gang have put the lot at risk.  When I say traitors I mean it 

Post edited at 09:43
 wercat 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Trangia:

perhaps we should ask for a UN peacekeeping force - perhaps that would bring home the political achievements of the last 5 years of lies and malice that are Brexit

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> If you read my OP l suggested police or army. 

> I have been to NI many times and I appreciate the difficulties. Nevertheless, I guess my perspective is that if I was the policeman in the car at the wrong end of a missile,  my objective would be to identify the perp and being him (they are mostly him) to justice.

> Judging by the responses I guess my worldview is a bit too black or white to be involved in this discussion so I will leave it here but with a further confirmation that my OP is non political.  I see bad, very bad, on both sides.

It probably felt like you were at the bottom of a pile on. Sucks that it felt like that for you.

The thing is situations like NI aren't black or white. It took 30 years of hard work, gaining trust of distrustful communities, of dealing with people you know full well were capable of, and probably had, committed atrocities, of making sure that what you promised was a promise that had to be kept. 

The GFA was just the seed and it was going to take more years than have elapsed for the peace to truly take hold. That peace has been thrown under a bus (a red one) by deal breakers, liars, and self promoters. 

Post edited at 09:52
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

And for your next trick?

... Looking forward to learning more about your proposal to end the Arab-Israeli conflict, by getting the respective leaders together and giving them a stern talking-to and a clip around the ear. 

 wercat 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

>  if I was the policeman in the car at the wrong end of a missile,  my objective would be to identify the perp and being him (they are mostly him) to justice.

Let me tell you about someone I worked with who had been machinegunned, bullets spraying all around his unit as they were supposed to be conducting an operation at the Divis flats.  The fire was coming from the flats

"the bullets started spraying around and within a few seconds you couldn't see any soldiers at all - we were all under the vehicles".  "why didn't you shoot back" asked a TA man in the same office.  "Because we didn't want to die .."

The same guy told us of chunks of meat in burnt cloth that you couldn't even tell were soldiers any more.

Post edited at 10:01
 mondite 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Trangia:

> It's utterly depressing, and so deep routed in history that there seems to be no solution.

It was working okay since GFA but something with such deep roots was never going to magically disappear.  You would have some parents still preaching hate but over time it would become harder to sustain.

Brexit though completely buggered things up. I am still baffled why the DUP thought it was a good idea to support it. Best I can think off is they thought the trend was against them long term and so brexit would somehow revert it?

In reply to Darren Jackson:

> And for your next trick?

> ... Looking forward to learning more about your proposal to end the Arab-Israeli conflict, by getting the respective leaders together and giving them a stern talking-to and a clip around the ear. 

Look, clearly my initial comments were coming from a specific perspective of crime commiting idiots throwing dangerous objects at the police and at each other where those idiots are in the full glare of the media and could be identified and brought to book, hopefully. I didnt even mention resolving the greater issues, I was speaking about criminals.

Despite enjoying your regular humorous interjections, this one missed the point entirely so as it has descended to this level this shall be my last comment and I will return to my more comfortable area of chili growing and birdwatching. Lets just hope no police officers or innocent bystanders (of any sectarian persuasion) lose their lives.

The criminals can kill each other with gay abandon for all I care.

Post edited at 10:22
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

To be fair to the rioters, I reckon 100% of them are being sensible and wearing face coverings....

 Ian W 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mondite:

> It was working okay since GFA but something with such deep roots was never going to magically disappear.  You would have some parents still preaching hate but over time it would become harder to sustain.

> Brexit though completely buggered things up. I am still baffled why the DUP thought it was a good idea to support it. Best I can think off is they thought the trend was against them long term and so brexit would somehow revert it?

I can only think they believed it would lead to some kind of increased "separation" between NI and the republic. Their support was bought by the tories via the £1bn bribe (although nobody could really be against investment in a part of the UK that desperately needs it). The response now is not surprising given they were sold out completely by the "Conservative and Unionist party" via the actual brexit outcome. how long NI will remain in the UK is, i suspect, very much up for debate as the Unionists in NI have been thoroughly marginalised, and more and more people will be looking over the border at the relative economic performance of the two economies............

 elsewhere 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Im perfectly aware but I stand by my comments. These youngsters have no idea of the real past, only of a past twisted by elders (on both sides - Im wholly apolitical as I said). What I see are crimes, committed by criminals and it seems many seem happy to explain/excuse because things are complicated. Pfft!

That's just dumb. You get answers you don't like and accuse people of being happy with sectarian rioting.

 scratcher 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Ian W:

> more and more people will be looking over the border at the relative economic performance of the two economies............

They may not like what they find. Ireland's GDP figures are a nonsense, hugely inflated by large corporations locating their European HQs in Ireland in order to minimise paying tax. Ireland would struggle to fund the six counties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_fiscal_deficit 

 mondite 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Ian W:

> Their support was bought by the tories via the £1bn bribe (although nobody could really be against investment in a part of the UK that desperately needs it).

They were in favour of brexit long before. One of their nicer acts was to act as a funnel for dodgy cash for the brexit campaign (using the exemption for reporting who provided a donation that was in place in NI to avoid having donors murdered).

> The response now is not surprising given they were sold out completely by the "Conservative and Unionist party" via the actual brexit outcome.

Thats the bit I struggle with them supporting it for. It was always obvious they would be sold out if necessary or even just if convenient.

> how long NI will remain in the UK is, i suspect, very much up for debate

Yes. There are now murmurings about triggering the vote and I think if things continue along the current lines it will be run by the end of the decade with a reunite outcome.

 jkarran 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Scenes in NI. Both sides being shit. Why aren't the police/army rounding up the wankers at each end and bringing them in. FFS, a bus was molotov'd whilst moving. What the hell is going on?

Because that turns a riot into a civil war, again.

Probably too late now anyway, I'd say Johnson et al should hang their heads in shame but they don't have any and right now I'm so angry I'd rather they just hang.

jk

 jkarran 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Maggot:

> The question is, what started it?

Most likely the 'mindless yoof' of yesteryear who organised into deadly paramilitaries then fought a thirty odd year colonial war at home and abroad. Some of whom never really accepted peace but have until now not been able to re-ignite the tinder the GFA left behind. The wait is over, Johnson has handed them the matches.

jk

 elsewhere 09 Apr 2021

Civil Support Operations in Northern Ireland (Or how to mess up badly by doing the right thing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E58K2EfSTM8&

An interesting perspective.

 jkarran 09 Apr 2021
In reply to summo:

> Something most have been managing, not all. You'd be mistaken if thought it's been peace for years, folk have been hurt still, killed, many innocent, it's just less of it and not reported so much. You may recall the journalist who got shot in broad daylight. 

NI isn't 'normal' but it was in recovery. The shooting you reference was an aberration. The picture you paint is horseshit and has been for some years. Still, I'd be lying to myself too if I'd knowingly voted for this.

jk

 Ian W 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mondite:

> They were in favour of brexit long before. One of their nicer acts was to act as a funnel for dodgy cash for the brexit campaign (using the exemption for reporting who provided a donation that was in place in NI to avoid having donors murdered).

Yes, i'd forgotten about that......

> Thats the bit I struggle with them supporting it for. It was always obvious they would be sold out if necessary or even just if convenient.

They'd been comprehensively lied to. They (and the rest of us) were told repeatedly that there would never be any kind of border, customs or otherwise, in the Irish sea. The "rest of us" were appeased by it not having any real direct effect on our daily lives; not so the Northern Irish, a section of whom just don't "get" the benefit of being aligned more closely to the Republic via continued "membership" of the EU customs union, as not being aligned to the republic is rather importan tto them.

> Yes. There are now murmurings about triggering the vote and I think if things continue along the current lines it will be run by the end of the decade with a reunite outcome.

Yup - and i get scratchers comment about false gdp, but thats not the only measure. And to add to that, i suspect there will be many who would go for reunification on the basis of not retuning to almost a civil war status........

 Timmd 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

A friend on facebook just shared this, I think it has a ring of truth about it.

....................................

The comedian and TV presenter Patrick Kieltys father was murdered by terrorists in January 1988.

Here is an open letter to Boris Johnson from Patrick written on Twitter in September 2018. It has aged much better than any of Boris Johnson's lies:

Dear Boris Johnson

There is no ‘better Brexit’ when it comes to the Good Friday Agreement and Northern Ireland.

As you still seem bamboozled by all this Paddywackery here’s a few pointers for your next stab in the dark -

1. Northern Ireland is made up of a majority of Unionists (as in the Conservative and Unionist Party) and, believe it or not, a rather large minority of Nationalists (as in Irish Nationalists)

2. These Irish Nationalists don’t see themselves as British but rather inconveniently as Irish (who knew?)

3. For over 30 years we killed each other because of these differences which means Northern Ireland is nothing like Camden or Westminster.

4. The Good Friday Agreement ended that violence by the following devious magic -

Unionists were guaranteed that Northern Ireland would be part of the UK until the majority voted otherwise.

The Irish was border was removed and the island linked so Nationalists could pretend they were already living in a United Ireland (yes, Tony Blair did slight of hand much better than you)

5. Some of these Nationalists then accepted being part of the UK as their day to day lives were essentially Irish.

6. This cunning plan was sold to us on the basis that we were all part of the EU therefore fixation on nationality was so last World War.

7. Implementing the Good Friday Agreement was torturous (think Brexit with actual bombs, not metaphorical suicide vests) but we finally made peace. Yet 20 years later NI remains a divided society.

8. Thanks to your glorious Brexit vision Northern Ireland will become more divided as some form of economic border checks will become part of daily lives.

9. If those checks take place between NI and Ireland, the Nationalists who were once happy being part of the UK will change their mind.

10. If they take place in the Irish Sea some Unionists will be livid. However they'll still support being part of the UK (the clue is in the Unionist bit)

11. Your Brexit lies have opened a Pandora’s box for Northern Ireland. It's one reason why the majority of people in NI voted to remain in the EU (almost as if they knew more about the fragile equilibrium of their politics than you)

12. Barely mentioned before Brexit, a border poll is now inevitable thanks to your monumental ignorance.

13. When that poll is eventually held the Nationalists who were once content being part of a Northern Ireland within the UK and EU will vote to leave the UK to feel as Irish and European as they did before Brexit.

14. The poll will be much closer thanks to your Brexit folly and could easily be lost by Unionists, breaking up the UK.

15. Any break up of the Union will be your fault (a tad inconvenient as a member of the Conservative and er, Unionist party)

16. The EU is not responsible for your blundering lack of foresight. Like most people in Northern Ireland they were happy with the status quo.

17. By the time the penny drops that you can’t preserve the Union you want without the one you don’t, it will be too late.

18. You will be remembered not as the Churchillian visionary you delude yourself to be but the ignoramus who triggered the break up of the UK.

19. If there’s any justice all this will come to pass when you're Prime Minister so you can finally swim in the constitutional sewage you've created (though we all know you’ll be in Nice with your trotters up)

20. Meantime, if you’re so concerned about keeping Northern Ireland totally aligned with the rest of the UK where’s your support for our same sex marriage and women’s right to choose? Your silence is deafening.

........................................

Edit: The point about the Good Friday Agreement satisfying everybody seems especially apt, with EU membership being more important and 'here and now' than fighting one another.

Post edited at 11:46
 jkarran 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mondite:

> Brexit though completely buggered things up. I am still baffled why the DUP thought it was a good idea to support it. Best I can think off is they thought the trend was against them long term and so brexit would somehow revert it?

I think they were counting on the border being on the island, making the North less Irish. Since this would be unlikely to drive a significant exodus of nationalists/Catholics I presume at that point the thinking either stopped or extended to accepting another shooting war they bet the UK would win as the price of securing to colony.

As it turns out the Conservatives used them then, freshly radicalised in 2019, fu*ked them, path of least resistance to brexit and power.

jk

 wercat 09 Apr 2021
In reply to jkarran:

> Because that turns a riot into a civil war, again.

> Probably too late now anyway, I'd say Johnson et al should hang their heads in shame but they don't have any and right now I'm so angry I'd rather they just hang.

> jk


"Crimes agains Peace".  Technically what the Brexiteers have done lies outside the letter of the law but I assert that this is what they knowingly committed in pushing their stinking toryparty project through.  They could have stayed in the customs union to prevent this shit, but no, this is a government only of those who voted a certain way in 2016, not a UK government, no legitimacy

 Timmd 09 Apr 2021
In reply to ericinbristol:

Snap.

 jkarran 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Timmd:

> Snap.

It deserves to be repeated. Scathing but fully justified.

jk

 marsbar 09 Apr 2021
In reply to digby:

Ever heard of this thing called leadership? 

Whoever is in charge gets paid extra to be in charge.  This makes them responsible for the idiots under them. 

> You can't blame Boris alone. You have to add in all the baying brexiters in the Tory party who he played to/appeased. It was a group effort.

 Timmd 09 Apr 2021
In reply to jkarran:

'Project Fear' huh?

Hey ho, the unraveling continues I guess, we can't seem to do anything other than watch it happen.

Post edited at 14:05
 mondite 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Ian W:

> They'd been comprehensively lied to. They (and the rest of us) were told repeatedly that there would never be any kind of border, customs or otherwise, in the Irish sea.

True but you have to be a tad thick to not figure out NI was going to be a massive clusterf*ck and the chances of it ending up in their favour being slim. There simply arent the numbers which would make the UK government concerned about protecting their interests above others.

I have some sympathy for the average supporter but they should be asking very pointed questions to the DUP leadership why they came up with such a poor strategy. Probably too busy profitting from cash from ash etc to think things through.

 65 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Why aren't the police/army rounding up the wankers at each end and bringing them in. 

Hopefully because there has been some reflection on how things panned out the last time this was tried.

There is one word to blame for all of this: brexit, or rather brexiteers. The men of violence on both sides will be rubbing their hands with glee. The tragedy is that the youngsters involved will have been toddlers or not even born when the Good Friday agreement was signed. So much for the hope of consigning the troubles to earlier generations.

 wercat 09 Apr 2021
In reply to 65:

How can we make the Brexiteers pay?

Blood or Money?

Can anyone remember the rumbling threats from Farage and other hard liners about violence if the Brexit project was not pushed through ?

Well we seem to have avoided that, ahem

Post edited at 14:20
In reply to Timmd:

I didn't know his Dad was murdered by terrorists. How awful.

 Ian W 09 Apr 2021
In reply to mondite:

> True but you have to be a tad thick to not figure out NI was going to be a massive clusterf*ck and the chances of it ending up in their favour being slim. There simply arent the numbers which would make the UK government concerned about protecting their interests above others.

Don't forget the whole thing is based on sectarianism, religion, ideology and hatred. Not much room for logical thought. But yes, quite why they thought they would remain even slightly important to the tories once their parliamentary majority meant the supply and confidence was no longer needed is a wonder. Perhaps they didnt think the tories would drop them quite so hard and quite so quickly.

> I have some sympathy for the average supporter but they should be asking very pointed questions to the DUP leadership why they came up with such a poor strategy. Probably too busy profitting from cash from ash etc to think things through.

Because the supply and confidence agreement gave them an overinflated sense of their self importance? Nothing like the ability to feel important to those vain enough.........

 elsewhere 09 Apr 2021
In reply to ericinbristol:

> I didn't know his Dad was murdered by terrorists. How awful.

I think as teen Patrick Kielty carried the coffin of his murdered father.

I think has father was businessman who was murdered because he had the balls to stand up to and criticise racketeering paramilitaries seeking protection money.

Patrick Kielty knows what he's talking about.

He also did some bloody funny comedy about paramilitaries.

 jkarran 09 Apr 2021
In reply to wercat:

> How can we make the Brexiteers pay? Blood or Money?

History. Don't let them write it.

jk

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> The GFA was just the seed and it was going to take more years than have elapsed for the peace to truly take hold.

At least a generation if our experience here from WW2 is anything to go by. The Channel islands were occupied by the Germans in WW2 for 5 years and although the islanders were generally treated quite fairly, life was bad - the islands almost starved once they were cut off from France after D-Day.  Hence after the war there was massive anti-German feeling in most quarters.  That feeling has gradually died away as those that had a hard time in the war died, to the point that there is now German military representation at our armistice day service. So, NI had another 50 years to go for things to be forgotten, perhaps longer as it was effectively a religious civil war. It's criminal to risk setting things back again.  The crazy thing is that anyone could see NI & Brexit was an impossible situation because people were going to be pissed off wherever a border was created.

 wercat 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Toerag:

criminal but how do we bring the criminals to account?

The generational thing accounts partly for the cyclic flareups in the Middle East too.  Old men who remember times when they are young who fire up youngsters born to parents who experienced a significant time of peace.   The youngsters can't remember the horror or the reasons why it stopped when the violence at last was perceived as futile.

And this current gang of criminals have overturned the applecart but will walk away wealthy and with honours from the mess

It isn't as if this appalling situation came cost free either- the loss to the NHS of thousands and thousands of skilled EU workers in the run up to a pandemic.  All of us forcibly stripped of our EU citizenship all based on a marginal noisy result from an illconceived and illexecuted "advisory referendum" held after a hightech privacy breaching cybercampaign worthy of Putin

Post edited at 17:30
In reply to wercat:

One thing you overlook, sadly the current government were voted in with a very large majority to execute Brexit. No matter how much we dislike it, that is where we are.

 Roadrunner6 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Scenes in NI. Both sides being shit. Why aren't the police/army rounding up the wankers at each end and bringing them in. FFS, a bus was molotov'd whilst moving. What the hell is going on?

What could possibly go wrong.. why not send the black and tans in..

Post edited at 18:37
 Roadrunner6 09 Apr 2021
In reply to summo:

"What's the answer then. For many it's a black and white position. Living together peaceful isn't their desire"

Assuming we ignore the last 15-20 years of peace.

 jkarran 09 Apr 2021
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

> One thing you overlook, sadly the current government were voted in with a very large majority to execute Brexit. No matter how much we dislike it, that is where we are.

Lots of seats and massive support shouldn't be conflated under our rotten electoral system.

Jk

 wercat 09 Apr 2021
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

it was not a very large majority - there was not a decisive majority and in any case there was a pervasive cybercampaign of personalised lies delivered from "trusted sources" from Dr Cummings apparatus.

In the light of that I have overlooked nothing

In reply to Robert Durran:

> There has just been a good item on Newsnight.

Agree. Mental note to watch Newsnight more, it just doesn't fit well into my evening routine...

In reply to jkarran:

It might be rotten but it suits both labour and conservative parties.  Would you decry it if your own views were being represented?

In reply to wercat:

Eighty odds seats is a large majority, I was talking about the election. The only mantra the Torres had was to “get brexit done”.  That was the policy that gave them the majority; something I suspect neither you or I like. We need to move on, find other ways to respond rather than constant whinging.

 wercat 09 Apr 2021
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

take up staves?

 Jim Fraser 09 Apr 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> ... Why aren't the police/army rounding up the wankers ... 

Didn't we already try that about 400 years ago and send them to northern Ireland?

It's been working so well!

Post edited at 22:32
 Baz P 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Jim Fraser:

> Didn't we already try that about 400 years ago and send them to northern Ireland?

> It's been working so well!

Yes but we failed to build a 50 ft wall topped with razor wire down our west coast. 

In reply to Jim Fraser:

> Didn't we already try that about 400 years ago and send them to northern Ireland?

> It's been working so well!

Try reading my other comments and not be two dimensional to get the full understanding of my statements

 mondite 09 Apr 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> What could possibly go wrong.. why not send the black and tans in..


Considering its the black and tans spiritual and possibly literal descendants who are currently protesting could be worth a shot.

 Roadrunner6 10 Apr 2021
In reply to mondite:

> Considering its the black and tans spiritual and possibly literal descendants who are currently protesting could be worth a shot.

Possibly.

But we always knew the troubles simmered below and didn't need much to get going again. Even through the 2000s there were a few attempted bombing incidents and shootings. 

There was pretty much peace but a delicately balanced one and we knew Brexit seriously threatened it and covid certainly didn't help. 

Sending in forces just will not work.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

This wouldn't be happening if it weren't for Brexit - the GF agreement was the only solution possible and basically worked, and now it's gone.

There will be lot of corpses rightly attributed to Johnson when he's gone, we will have paid a high price to pay for having a politician whose high point should have been appearing on HIGNFY.

Post edited at 09:19
 Martin Hore 09:52 Sat
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

>  I see criminals who need to be dealt with as I would be if I torched my local area and threw rocks/pallets at the local squad car.

Yep, round them up, hold a few show trials, put them in prison on some god-forsaken off shore island, and only 27 years later realise that one of them might be the only person who can lead your country out of decades of division and intolerance.

Martin

 Roadrunner6 11:41 Sat
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I'm surprised how lightly the decision seemed to have been made. Especially by the generations older than me. we always knew changing the border conditions there would likely end the GFA. 

Im 41 so was a teenager in the 90s and remember well the bomb threats in the UK and actual bombings, never mind the constant troubles and failed cease fires in NI. I was actually in Belfast for one and that last night was pretty wild with shots going off. We'd frequently be evacuated from meadowhall shopping center outside of sheffield when I was 13-15 or so.

I can understand those younger than me thinking maybe it wasn't that bad but not those who largely voted for Brexit.

Post edited at 11:43
 Eric9Points 11:49 Sat
In reply to marsbar:

> Oh I thought you meant the lying politicians who put the Good Friday agreement at risk.

Which of course included the Democratic Unionist Party of NI whose leader is FM of NI.

..and the 52% if the electorate who decided to vote to leave the EU even though they were told repeatedly that leaving the EU was likely to threaten the very existence of the UK, their own country, the country they believed should "take back control". Many NI unionists were part of that 52% of course.

Brexit is perhaps the clearest example of how democracy and referendums in particular fail to give the electorate what they actually want.

 deepsoup 12:10 Sat
In reply to Eric9Points:

> ..and the 52% if the electorate who decided to vote to leave the EU even though they were told repeatedly that leaving the EU was likely to threaten the very existence of the UK, their own country, the country they believed should "take back control".

37.4% of the electorate, across the UK as a whole, decided to vote to leave the EU.  27.7% in NI. 
(UK turnout was 72.2%, 62.7% in NI)

Detailed referendum results here: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/results-and-turnout-eu-referendum

And as often as we were told those things, we were also reassured that this was nothing more than 'Project Fear' scaremongering.  As was any suggestion that a 'no deal' Brexit or anything remotely as close to it as we ended up with was even possible and, according to all the more official leave campaigners, even the suggestion that we would be leaving the Single Market.

Eg: "Nobody, absolutely nobody, is talking about threatening our place in the single market."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzykce4oxII&
(Of course Boris Johnson was lying through his teeth about the border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK much more recently than that.)

Post edited at 12:23
 Eric9Points 12:17 Sat
In reply to deepsoup:

Well yes, 52% of those who bothered to vote.

Should constitutional change by referendum require over 50% of all of the electorate or a 2/3 majority of the vote?

 john arran 12:21 Sat
In reply to Eric9Points:

> Should constitutional change by referendum require over 50% of all of the electorate or a 2/3 majority of the vote?

Requiring a supermajority is the international norm when developing countries are rewriting Constitutions. This is the advice that international experts, including many funded by the UK, would usually give.

 Maggot 12:26 Sat
In reply to john arran:

> Should constitutional change by referendum require over 50% of all of the electorate or a 2/3 majority of the vote?

> Requiring a supermajority is the international norm when developing countries are rewriting Constitutions. This is the advice that international experts, including many funded by the UK, would usually give.

I'm not sure tominedinburgh would go with that!

In reply to HighChilternRidge:

> It might be rotten but it suits both labour and conservative parties.  Would you decry it if your own views were being represented?

Yes.

 deepsoup 12:32 Sat
In reply to Eric9Points:

> Well yes, 52% of those who bothered to vote.

You say that as if "those who bothered to vote" and "the electorate" are the same thing.  You're either mistaken about that or you're not quite being entirely honest.

> Should constitutional change by referendum require over 50% of all of the electorate or a 2/3 majority of the vote?

Yes.  At least the former, when implementing the outcome of the referendum will have dramatic and irreversible effects. 

Conversely, a decision not to leave is relatively easy to reverse by simply having another referendum and deciding to leave after all a few years down the line.  As we'll undoubtedly be seeing in Scotland before very much longer.

Post edited at 12:37
In reply to Maggot:
 

as a Scot reluctantly leaning towards Independence, as the bin fire that is brexit burns progressively brighter (literally so in NI), I still think it should need a supermajority in any IndyRef2. A 52:48 split for independence, or the like, would just poison the country as effectively as Brexit has poisoned the U.K. 

 wercat 12:40 Sat
In reply to Roadrunner6:

please stop being Herr General Ageist

I'm 65 and I knew exactly what would happen.   The first words out of my mouth to my wife on hearing the result were "That's Scotland gone then" followed shortly by "and Northern Ireland will be a complete mess".

One of my first acts as an adult was to be part of the supermajority who voted to be IN!

 wercat 12:42 Sat
In reply to Martin Hore:

> Yep, round them up, hold a few show trials, put them in prison on some god-forsaken off shore island, and only 27 years later realise that one of them might be the only person who can lead your country out of decades of division and intolerance.


I dont see how ANY of the Brexit gang could be a future leader other than as a usurper as they are now. an island is too good for them.  Pass the ammo ...

ps remember the cabinet are DUP collaborators so all the harm the DUP do can  be credited to the ERG/BORIS/FARAGE gauleiters

Post edited at 12:44
 GrahamD 12:43 Sat
In reply to john arran:

But of course, this was only an advisory referendum, wasn't it ?

 john arran 13:01 Sat
In reply to GrahamD:

The point is that no change to a country's Constitution should be permitted in law without the consent of a suitable supermajority, either in Parliament or by public referendum.

Of course that doesn't always stop governments from getting things through against the will of a supermajority; the most common way to get around it is to bundle an unwanted change in with more agreeable changes, effectively bribing people with sweeties to vote as they wouldn't otherwise.

 wercat 13:16 Sat
In reply to john arran:

surely you aren't being so radical as to suggest that our constitution should receive the same level of protection as the law requires of sports/social clubs etc?

 Tobes 13:17 Sat
In reply to Maggot:

> The footage I've seen has been a bunch of mindless dickhead yoofs going way over the top, who most likely don't even know what Brexit and Covid are.

> The question is, what started it?

in addition to a lot of input up thread there was also a funeral last year of a ‘hero’ of the cause. Too many people turned up (over a 1000 I believe) including members of the IRA, sorry I mean Sein Fien ; ) anyway the police did little and no one was found to have ‘breached’ Covid regs so there’s a feeling of one rule for some another rule for others. Still it was a good opportunity for folk to come out in their uniforms and pull their best ‘hard’ face for the day. 
 

 john arran 13:18 Sat
In reply to wercat:

> surely you aren't being so radical as to suggest that our constitution should receive the same level of protection as the law requires of sports/social clubs etc?

A Constitution itself might be a good start!

 fred99 13:23 Sat
In reply to Martin Hore:

> Yep, round them up, hold a few show trials, put them in prison on some god-forsaken off shore island, and only 27 years later realise that one of them might be the only person who can lead your country out of decades of division and intolerance.

If it wasn't for the intolerance of so many so-called "leaders" in NI we wouldn't have anywhere near the situation that now exists.

The Reverend Ian Paisley was scarcely very "christian" in his attitudes to catholics, and the IRA were/are just as bad. The fact that these people ended up up as politicians was as much because they wanted to retain power as anything else.

If the leaders from both sides had been brought to book when this all kicked off again in the late 60's then we might have had a chance, but it's now too late.

The only way that I can see to sort out Northern Ireland is for it to be declared a completely independent country, separate to both the UK and Eire, with a massive wall to stop anyone getting out until they've killed enough of each other to realise the complete stupidity of such violence - would take up to the next century unfortunately, and the main culprits on both "sides" would escape the justice they truly deserve - the end of a rope.

Yes, I am truly pessimistic.

 fred99 13:26 Sat
In reply to Eric9Points:

> Well yes, 52% of those who bothered to vote.

> Should constitutional change by referendum require over 50% of all of the electorate or a 2/3 majority of the vote?

Of course they should.

But the Brexit vote was "non-binding", so nothing to worry about was there.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Brexit.,, this is more to do with criminal gangs being clamped down on by police an riots organised by the criminal gangs in response. 

 john arran 12:59 Sun
In reply to Mical:

Any other idea why these "criminal gangs" might suddenly have started doing criminal things the like of which hasn't been seen since the signing of the GFA?

Denying any Brexit connection is simply head-in-the-sand laughable.

In reply to Mical:

6 years ago I - along with many others - said that Brexit  would mean the end of the GFA, and there would be rioting back on the streets of Belfast. It doesn't give me any pleasure that Johnson proceeded to conduct an experiment that has proved us right. 

Post edited at 13:19
 Trevers 14:58 Sun
In reply to Mical:

> Brexit.,, this is more to do with criminal gangs being clamped down on by police an riots organised by the criminal gangs in response. 

Are all the people out rioting members of those criminal gangs, or in hock to them? Or is it that they have an underlying feeling of anger and betrayal that is being exploited?

 Trevers 15:01 Sun
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> I can understand those younger than me thinking maybe it wasn't that bad but not those who largely voted for Brexit.

I think there's a lot of people who don't really consider NI to be a part of the UK.

 65 22:46 Sun
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> 6 years ago I - along with many others - said that Brexit  would mean the end of the GFA, and there would be rioting back on the streets of Belfast. It doesn't give me any pleasure that Johnson proceeded to conduct an experiment that has proved us right. 

Reports coming in that the UVF have ordered Catholic families out of south Carrickfergus. And so it begins. 

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

You're quite young aren't you?

In reply to Pete Pozman:

> You're quite young aren't you?

But rocking a retro gammon vibe

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

There was king: William of Orange...

Ah...

 gravy 08:53 Mon
In reply to Pete Pozman:

In reply to jethro kiernan:

It isn't fair to tar the young with this f*ckwittery.

I'm not actually sure it's fair to tar Gammons with it either...

 jkarran 09:26 Mon
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

> It might be rotten but it suits both labour and conservative parties.  Would you decry it if your own views were being represented?

I did when they were. Rotten is rotten.

It serves none of us to suppress minority views, they should be represented proportionally whether greens or ethnonationalist-fascists. Our rotten electoral system is in large part the cause of our devastating brexit implosion.

jk

 jkarran 09:39 Mon
In reply to Eric9Points:

> Should constitutional change by referendum require over 50% of all of the electorate or a 2/3 majority of the vote?

It should require safeguards. The scale and irreversibility of the change should probably dictate the amount of caution applied.

I'd ask the brexit voters now whether this is the brexit they voted for? If it is, shame! If it's not, why the f**k weren't they screaming from the rooftops during three elections on this for a process that would have ensured they were promised the deliverable and delivered what they were promised?

The British people, both sides of the brexit vote have been treated with utter contempt.

jk

 jkarran 09:48 Mon
In reply to fred99:

> The only way that I can see to sort out Northern Ireland is for it to be declared a completely independent country, separate to both the UK and Eire, with a massive wall to stop anyone getting out until they've killed enough of each other to realise the complete stupidity of such violence - would take up to the next century unfortunately, and the main culprits on both "sides" would escape the justice they truly deserve - the end of a rope.

More realistically once this failure of a government is gone someone is going to have to painstakingly rebuild trust with both factions, damp the fires down and create space for the diplomacy and statecraft required to reconstruct the GFA's delicate illusion. This can be fixed but it is one hell of a mess and it is probably going to take a decade or two.

jk

Post edited at 09:49
In reply to jkarran:

"Brexit implosion" is a chillingly apt choice of words.

 Graeme G 09:56 Mon
In reply to fred99:

> The only way that I can see to sort out Northern Ireland is for it to be declared a completely independent country, separate to both the UK and Eire, with a massive wall to stop anyone getting out until they've killed enough of each other to realise the complete stupidity of such violence - would take up to the next century unfortunately, and the main culprits on both "sides" would escape the justice they truly deserve - the end of a rope.

Seriously? Such vitriol and anger? Again?

You do realise there are tens of thousands of innocents in NI who you appear happy to condemn to this life of violence?

 fred99 11:04 Mon
In reply to Graeme G:

> Seriously? Such vitriol and anger? Again?

> You do realise there are tens of thousands of innocents in NI who you appear happy to condemn to this life of violence?

My vitriol and anger is principally directed against the puppet masters who have instigated this latest violence, and secondly against ALL those taking part, either by action or inaction.

What I most definitely do NOT want is for this violence to spill over into England as before, where we have effectively no record of violence between Catholics and Protestants since the last civil war - which trashed my city and left as many dead in the streets as ANY town in Ireland.

When I say England I do mean just that, as this sectarian violence does (sadly) exist in Scotland, and whilst the CofE is rather relaxed with its' attitude to Catholicism, the brand of Protestantism in NI has far more in common with Scottish Presbyterianism. It is therefore a bit rich to blame England for such sectarianism when the source is to be found north of the border.

 Graeme G 11:58 Mon
In reply to fred99:

> My vitriol and anger is principally directed against the puppet masters who have instigated this latest violence, and secondly against ALL those taking part, either by action or inaction.

Inaction? Can I assume you mean that if you lived in NI you would be a hero and stand against paramilitaries unlike those who already live there and clearly have no courage to do so themselves?

> What I most definitely do NOT want is for this violence to spill over into England as before, where we have effectively no record of violence between Catholics and Protestants since the last civil war - which trashed my city and left as many dead in the streets as ANY town in Ireland.

And building a wall around NI is going to stop that?

> When I say England I do mean just that, as this sectarian violence does (sadly) exist in Scotland, and whilst the CofE is rather relaxed with its' attitude to Catholicism, the brand of Protestantism in NI has far more in common with Scottish Presbyterianism. It is therefore a bit rich to blame England for such sectarianism when the source is to be found north of the border.

I suggest you study your history a bit to help you better understand the root of this sectarianism. 
And I’d also suggest you show more compassion for people who live in fear, in circumstances beyond their control.

 fred99 13:15 Mon
In reply to Graeme G:

> Inaction? Can I assume you mean that if you lived in NI you would be a hero and stand against paramilitaries unlike those who already live there and clearly have no courage to do so themselves?

> And building a wall around NI is going to stop that?

> I suggest you study your history a bit to help you better understand the root of this sectarianism. 

> And I’d also suggest you show more compassion for people who live in fear, in circumstances beyond their control.

Inaction - what have the parents of these kids done up to now which has led to them becoming nothing more than criminal thugs or terrorists at such a young age.

Building any wall - or strictly limiting entry to RUK - would greatly reduce it spreading.

This sectarianism was started in the late 60's by the religious intolerance of the protestants, led by Paisley. Preventing Catholics getting jobs and so forth - nothing different to the Afrikaners with apartheid in South Africa - and I have the same opinion of both groups.

Compassion - I have it, I even have friends from and in NI. But that doesn't mean I want this thuggery to be exported to RUK again. Do you want another set of Birmingham or Manchester bombings ? Because I don't. If it stays in one place then fewer people die or get maimed because quite simply there are fewer people in NI than the whole of the UK (and indeed Eire). If it stays in one place then both sides will run out of supporters/enemies quicker.

 jkarran 15:05 Mon
In reply to fred99:

> Building any wall - or strictly limiting entry to RUK - would greatly reduce it spreading.

> Compassion - I have it, I even have friends from and in NI. But that doesn't mean I want this thuggery to be exported to RUK again. Do you want another set of Birmingham or Manchester bombings ?...

I assumed you weren't serious but now I'm not so sure. Walls, really? Ideas cross borders (walls or not) freely and the people those ideas appeal to are not contained.

jk

 john arran 18:08 Mon
In reply to fred99:

Absolutely gobsmacking that anyone could even contemplate the idea of virtually imprisoning the whole of the NI population in not allowing them to move freely around the rest of their nation, simply because of the violent behaviour of maybe a few hundred individuals.

Where do you even get such an idea? I'd have thought even offensively outrageous rags like the Mail would stop short of that level of batshit crazy.

In reply to Mical:

> Brexit.,, this is more to do with criminal gangs being clamped down on by police an riots organised by the criminal gangs in response. 

Yes. If people think this latest disorder is solely down to Brexit what do they put the riots of 2013, 2012, 2011, ...etc, down to then?

Seeking to explain troubles in NI through an English lens is part of the problem.

In reply to john arran:

Yes, Poe’s Law in action again...

 wercat 08:58 Tue
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

I don't think anyone has claimed that - in fact most posters seem fully aware of the history so I don't think your point is valid

 fred99 11:07 Tue
In reply to john arran:

I dearly hope that I am panicking unnecessarily, but the way things are going frightens me, as I can remember when it all kicked off last time.

However, if one single bomb is planted outside of NI, or the government sends in troops and a single one of them gets injured, then we could be on the road to a repeat of the 70's. But back then we only had the IRA to deal with, not any so-called Muslim* terrorists as well, who weren't focussing attention on the UK at the time.

If that happens then God help us, particularly those who live or work in the major conurbations, military, or Government buildings, because God's (alleged) followers in NI certainly won't.

* One thing all these terrorists have in common is that they claim to do things in the name of their religion, but demonstrably go against the very tenets of their religion, and seem more like common (albeit very dangerous) criminals.

 jkarran 12:24 Tue
In reply to fred99:

> If that happens then God help us, particularly those who live or work in the major conurbations, military, or Government buildings, because God's (alleged) followers in NI certainly won't.

You seem to be presenting Northern Ireland's conflict as primarily religious, I'm not convinced it ever was. I think it's maybe better understood as the toxic legacy of 400+ years of colonialism.

I hope it doesn't come to open conflict but if it does it'll be interesting to see how effectively ruthless guerrilla war(s) can be waged against technologically capable states in the communications era. I fear the answer is remarkably effectively.

jk

 wercat 12:28 Tue
In reply to jkarran:

I think it was quite interesting enough last time.  At the age of 18 it came home to me when a fellow student told us how he had lost men and their families in the M62 coach bombing, not so far from where we were in the North East.

Post edited at 12:28
 mondite 12:35 Tue
In reply to jkarran:

> You seem to be presenting Northern Ireland's conflict as primarily religious, I'm not convinced it ever was. I think it's maybe better understood as the toxic legacy of 400+ years of colonialism.

Religion was a core part of the colonialism though. After a few centuries where the colonists had a nasty habit of going native the plantation of Ulster carefully used colonists whose religious views pretty much guaranteed there would be no chance of them getting on well with the natives.

In reply to mondite:

>... After a few centuries where the colonists had a nasty habit of going native 

Those early colonists; what a bunch of lads, Ted?

They were mad for the stout, Taytos, and poteen altogether. 

 fred99 13:24 Tue
In reply to jkarran:

> You seem to be presenting Northern Ireland's conflict as primarily religious, I'm not convinced it ever was. I think it's maybe better understood as the toxic legacy of 400+ years of colonialism.

> I hope it doesn't come to open conflict but if it does it'll be interesting to see how effectively ruthless guerrilla war(s) can be waged against technologically capable states in the communications era. I fear the answer is remarkably effectively.

It's founded in religion - just refer back to the "marching season" they have, and all the animosity that they continue to revive each year. Then take note that Westminster has had to force NI to accept a law that gives women control over their own bodies - and that's where it's the Protestants in control, not the Catholics. And that law would be thrown out if the NI "politicians" had their way. Religion, or at least the excuse of religion, has far more sway in NI than the rest of the UK.

The people involved in this violence are just plain criminal, but they hide behind one side of the religious divide or the other, which just makes policing damn nigh impossible. That is the fault of the "politicians" in NI, who in many cases have personally been part of these groups.

As for technology - it's a lot of work to keep the Moslem* "Fundamentalists" impact low, so it would be very difficult to ramp up the extra work to deal with people who blend into the rest of the UK far more easily.

* They call themselves Moslem, the Moslems I know call them something else.

 jkarran 14:22 Tue
In reply to fred99:

> It's founded in religion - just refer back to the "marching season" they have, and all the animosity that they continue to revive each year.

This can easily be viewed through a lens of cultural identity (and animosity). To frame it as primarily religious, I'd argue that those involved in both that agitation and its resulting conflict would themselves have to be religiously active, if not devout but that isn't really the case in the 21st century. Its a cultural and political conflict with deep roots, yes they're tangled in religion like so much of Britain's domestic and border conflict through the ages but few if any of those conflicts arose through religious tensions alone. Northern Ireland is in the long run a nation in need of a unifying identity of its own and it has for years felt like tit was on the gradual, faltering path toward that. It's too evenly divided to comfortably adopt the identity of either bigger neighbour wholesale.

> Then take note that Westminster has had to force NI to accept a law that gives women control over their own bodies - and that's where it's the Protestants in control, not the Catholics.

Yet the nominally Catholic republic to the south has liberalised in this respect at a phenomenal rate. It's almost like there's something else going on in the north.

> The people involved in this violence are just plain criminal, but they hide behind one side of the religious divide or the other, which just makes policing damn nigh impossible. That is the fault of the "politicians" in NI, who in many cases have personally been part of these groups.

They're not just plain criminal. You might not like that but it doesn't change reality, this is political violence, yes the weapons are angry, violent young men with heads full of nonsense but their criminality is not plain or simple, nor is the policing of it.

We apparently have a different take on the qualified respect due to those willing to lay down their weapons, talk and compromise. We might not like what they did for either side with their guns, we might not even like what they stand for without their weapons but without people willing to put aside what has passed, move from fighting to talking the violence never ends. They are a part of the solution like it or not.

> As for technology - it's a lot of work to keep the Moslem* "Fundamentalists" impact low, so it would be very difficult to ramp up the extra work to deal with people who blend into the rest of the UK far more easily.

I am under no illusion it would be anything but a lot of work, still, that's war for you and if that's waht we've started I suspect technology means it will be a noticeably different one to that of the 70's and 80's in some respects. In others, it will be much the same, fought street to street house to house with arson, bats and menace. Technology won't touch that.

jk


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