UKH

We have problems with supplies of petrol and some empty shelves in supermarkets. Are there comparable issues in EU countries?

I can only speak of my own personal experience of rural French Pyrenees, but I have yet to see even the tiniest example of food or fuel unavailability. Nor have I heard of any.

No such problems here in Germany. 

No such issues here in North Wales

I'm in a small mountain town above Grenoble but haven't seen any issues whatsoever and to be honest nobody (including the press) even seems to be entertaining it as a possibility.

If it wasn't for being British and reading the British press I wouldn't know about the problems there either. 

Copenhagen: supermarkets completely normal. We don't have a car, so don't think about petrol, but I'm sure that is completely normal too. 

As an aside, in conversations with colleagues (primarily Danish but also other EU citizens + a couple of non-EU) Britain/Brexit really never comes up - total non-topic. Political conversations over lunch last week focused on the Norwegian and German elections. 

I live a little north of Gap (French Alps), no sign of any problems here. Last week we had some friends from Andorra visiting on their way back from visiting family in Sardinia & they said there were no problems there either. Everything I've seen & read suggests it a purely UK problem.

Currently in Croatia, everything thing is normal, down by the coast where it is busy and up here in the hills, where it isn’t. No queues at gas stations and no empty shelves to be seen.

The U.K. govs story that the problems are continent wide would appear to be a lie - who would have guessed?

Chris

Just to reinforce this, I'm in Holland and there is no sign of anything out of the ordinary here, or indeed any mention of the UK 'crises'. The UK is just not that important to Europeans and the UK needs to get used to that idea 

The driver shortage isn't a lie, just hasn't really hit yet, when things get back to normal (Covid) the cracks might start to show. There's a comparable shortfall in Germany because of the demographic change, stopping national service (the military produced 15,000 qualified drivers per year) and Covid stopped training. 

At the moment there are no shortages because the government allow non-EU drivers in under the skills shortage rules,, the companies have adjusted their freight patterns and a pool of EU drivers has suddenly appeared!

Everything seems normal here in Sweden.

Al completely normal here in northern Germany. 🇩🇪 

Yeah. There is demand for truckers, but no shortages either. I think in Europe generally there could be infrastructure differences, the volume of rail freight, or even truck sizes: in sweden a standard long haul truck is a full sized rigid with an artic trailer upto 64 tons. Or even parcels tend to go to local collection points, not so much doorsteps hermes style. 

Why do thes replies not surprise me? What surprises me a little is four dislikes for asking the question. Who are these people and what’s their reason?

I didn’t dislike your post.

I have just returned from a week in Ireland. No fuel shortage or empty shelves.

We filled our car with fuel on Friday night on the A55, no queue but it was 2.15 in the morning.

Had an ASDA home delivery yesterday - over 50 items, no changes or substitutions.

There have been a very few empty shelves in our local supermarket and no fuel shortages here on Merseyside until idiots decided, for no logical reason,  to panic buy.

Perhaps people disliked your post because they thought, quite wrongly of course, that it was another UKC attempt to bash the U.K. and promote the joys of living in the EU?

This of course raises other questions as to how bad or widespread these problems are in the UK. I don’t know of problems first hand even in my own locality. I filled up (nearly empty, honest) last Thursday and not been more than  5 miles from home since. Still using home delivery from Sainsbury so unaware of empty shelves. No more substitutions than previously. The media - mainly TV - love things thay can film to shock and are probably responsible for much of the panic buying. Pictures of full shelves and no queues at filling stations aren’t news - to misquote an old saying good news is no news. 
As far as I can see most of the problems are in London and the SE. Not saying that doesn’t matter, though.

I was in my local Sainsburys in Sheffield on Saturday and there were obvious shortages (and several plaques advising as much). Most goods were there but there are a few exceptions - tinned fish (sardines) have been in short supply from Sainsburys and Tescos for weeks.

The local garages were out of petrol by Saturday afternoon but some diesel was available Sunday morning. 

The EU has an extra 20k lorry drivers of late, so no surprise they're largely unaffected. Many EU drivers spent last Xmas stuck on an airfield in kent, hungry and crapping in plastic bags so I'm not sure if there's much appetite to come back.

On Radio4 this morning a Dutch lorry driver said, "Why should we come back and dig you out of your own shit?"

I'd be more worried about what's going on behind the scenes.

My wife works for a company that trade raw materials (more for food ingredients and health/well being) all over the world and getting stuff into the UK is (and has been for 6 months at least) a nightmare (having 40+ shipping containers stuck on the EverGiven didn't help). This knock-on effect means that a lot of stuff isn't being produced in sufficient quantities and companies are paying silly prices to get hold of raw ingredients - at the very least this will ultimately lead to price rises.

In the Inverness area the large Tesco's have had lots of stock issues and partially empty shelves for a few months, it can be really random but repeated noticeable examples are pet food/cat litter, toilet paper, fresh veg, pasta / rice, breakfast cereals (currently hardly anything). Currently some local petrol stations have run out too (noticed this on my commute this am). I find it interesting that the Scottish media don't appear to be mentioning Brexit at all.. which is clearly the main issue that started the current problems

What people are not commenting on is the global supply chain issues which are hitting manufacturing companys worldwide...even European ones. There might not a driver issue, but there certainly big supply issues everywhere in global manufacturing.

I am waiting overdue deliveries on motors from Italy ( 8 weeks overdue), nylon feedstock for mouldings from Switzerland ( 7 months usally 4 week), electronic parts from China ( need I say more).

The driver issue is small change ( but news) compared with what is going on in manufacturing globally.

Try getting a shipment through NY Port at the moment...nightmare.

I have a very good friend in the Netherlands who's a truck driver (he was British but has been there years and has taken citizenship). Not only would he not come back to the UK to work but he's stopped taking jobs that include a run to the UK - post Brexit it's simply too much hassle. He's very tickled by the idea that thousands of EU drivers are going to be tempted back. 

There's a good article here giving the European view.

https://orynski.eu/20-reasons-why-there-is-shortage-of-drivers-in-the-uk/

In a co-op in Tynemouth the other day, there's were sufficient empty shelves for a sign to be put up apologising on behalf of the management for the lack of options available to customers and a hope to return to normal service soon.

The Morrisons in town has no such notices yet, but quite a few items out and of stock and many shelves not stacked to the back any more - just a veneer of produce at the front of the shelf.

Maybe your friend has an answer for the Europe wide driver shortage?

https://www.ft.com/content/0c4f9876-1ec5-41e1-b774-4abd2b58dde9

You mean the popular press (and UKC) aren't talking about it?

The typical drivel about building cheap housing and so on seems to ignore that getting a sheet of plasterboard nowadays means resorting to armed robbery and when the whole chaos filters through probably means an overall 30% price hike.

The German industry confidence index dropped yet again due to shortages and the experts are now talking about maybe 2% loss of GDP so a huge economic blow, what's going to happen in the UK I dread to think.

There obviously is a driver shortage. There's lots of immediate examples such as dairies throwing milk down the drain as cows need regular milking but local storage is full and there are problems with tanker collections due to driver shortages. 

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/100000-litres-milk...

The key driver in the European network is Eastern Europeans not an expat now living in Holland.

For the right money those drivers will work really hard. Paper work is a side issue.

What, not even the ones who were lucky enough to spend last Christmas stuck on a disused runway in Kent?

You try getting a consignement through New York Port- off a boat and out onto the road to be delivered. There are examples like this all over the place.

Its symptomatic of most countries going through a big jump in growth following Covid.Its a struggle.

You only have to look at the number of containers being shipped,log jams and rerouting to step back and think what is going on.

Its a mess.

I'm North East Wales, and there are fuel shortages around here. Not seen any empty food shelves or heard of any though.

Well said Jim. Its also pretty significant in the UK if you need fuel and cant get any (and I think the idea this will be over in a day or so is cloud cuckoo land.. .restock will take longer than that with no demand). I don't get why Neil says things like this at times. A stupidly manufactured UK crisis that shouldn't have happened is still a crisis. I've lost count of tory politicians and shamefully foolish experts who say there is no shortage of fuel... we don't buy fuel from storage depots. 

On the supermarket front my local Sainsburys and Coops have had issues with some stock and the big Sainsbury I use in particular with own brands.

'For the right money those drivers will work really hard. Paper work is a side issue.'  Your first statement is correct.  Your second ignores that the paperwork impacts the first massively, in both direct and indirect ways.  

Surely the reasons for the empty pumps is panic buying i.e. bringing forward of demand from the future. Therefore the next week or so's demand will be below normal and restocking will be fine.

Not given driver supply is so limited it takes a week to restock. Steady state fuel supply to petrol stations was in trouble before the panic. Too many people (who don't need to) will keep full tanks, areas will be prioritized over the next days (especially motorway services), there will be problems for weeks, best case, not days.

No disrespect but you do not manage supply chains in manufacturing.You are not seeing what is going on daily at the moment ( and its been going on for some months).

There are some real global issues going on. More as a result of the growth in economies following pandemic contraction.

The petrol scenario is the tip of the iceberg.That is all I am pointing out.

Please don't patronise us. As Jim said irrespective of the UK press and UKC opinions many people who care to look are fully aware of international supply issues and the better known pinch points.

If you seriously think the petrol scenario is the tip of the iceberg we are heading from social meltdown. Its a classic government cock-up to turn a supply problem into panic buying.

A fuel logistics commentator on the BBC this morning pointed out that the size of the reservoir of half empty car petrol tanks available to panic buyers far exceeds the ability of the network to supply it.

The way forward is rationing until everyone calms down. No fuel available anywhere in the West Country except on the main arteries, where they are rationing fill-ups to £30 a time.

Just as I said, when normal supply doesn't quite meet normal demand and demand reached 500% of normal  for some stations (leaving most empty) it will take weeks to get back to normal. Listen to the expert:

https://mobile.twitter.com/skynews/status/1442374141584281604

I was spitballing some numbers this morning and reckon it would need on the order of 10 days of supplies to fill all tanks in the country if, on average, they are half full in normal times.   No idea how much is stored under garage forecourts but I'm guessing not much more than a day or twos worth given our JIT economy.   So, I'll be pleasantly surprised if we return to normal in under a week from last Friday.   

In reply to Toerag:

If people have adjusted the lower set-point at which they refue their tankl then it represents a net increase in demand for the short and medium term,  that will only be returned when people stop being concerned about shortages and start letting their tanks run down again; the way the last month has gone I can see that not being until winter is passed for some.

I saw Grant Shapps describing it as a “Manufactured crisis.”  Yes, manufactured by them! At what point will they be held to account? Johnson and Gove should be in the Tower of London by now. 

Unless my memory is letting me down that was not down to our failings in the UK?

That they were stranded on our side of the border, maybe not.  The grim conditions they were stranded in, with not so much as a portaloo between them, possibly more so. 

Either way, I don't think it's really necessary to apportion blame for that whole debacle to suggest that the recent experience of having cat food for Christmas dinner and shitting directly into the river Medway might be a bit off putting to some EU drivers contemplating the generous offer of a temporary visa to work in the UK that expires on Christmas Eve 2021.

I am patronising you. Jims and your  comments make it sound as thought there are not issues outside the UK, that  is b...ll..ks.

You are Boris Johnson and I claim my £5.

I read it as exactly the opposite given he even spelled out some of those international problems.

 My dear wife, who has a talent for lateral thinking suggests just the opposite. Impose a minimum fill of £50. However little you put in it costs a minimum of fifty quid. That should do it.

There definitely were petrol station closures in North Wales at the weekend.  I only wanted a coffee, but most of the ones I passed had closed entirely because they had no fuel!

I don't think they're suggesting there are no issues outside the UK are they?

Regarding the shortage of lorry drivers though, that isn't the only problem with lorry transport in the UK is it? 

How many exports are currently being taken to the EU by British drivers in British lorries that would previously have been taken as a return load by EU lorries that are now returning empty because it's such a ballache getting through customs?

How many loads that would previously have been moved around within the UK as cabotage by EU lorries here temporarily now require a UK lorry to move them instead?
(For example a Spanish lorry having dropped one load in Glasgow, taking another from Edinburgh to Birmingham, prior to picking something else up in Coventry to take back to Spain.)

Genuine questions if you're an industry expert - I've tried googling for answers but found nothing very enlightening.

Surely that only makes sense if the economy is now bigger than it was pre pandemic?

There are no supply issues in petrol stations and supermarkets that I am aware of, apart of course the Marks and Spencers that have shut and certain items from the UK, due naturally Brexit. Luckily the only "UK" products I buy  like HP sauce are made in Europe anyway.

I think we need to separate out two issues in response to the OP ("We have problems with supplies of petrol and some empty shelves in supermarkets. Are there comparable issues in EU countries?"):

1. Yes, as you point, by all accounts there is a global shortage of lorry drivers.

2. No, there are no comparable issues in EU countries of "petrol shortages and some empty shelves in supermarkets".

That's not true. Why did you say it?

Just been to my local Morrison’s, Caernarfon.

No diesel at all and limited petrol pumps open.

More importantly my favourite fruit juice shelf was empty! 

I suspect I’ll cope though…

One of my clients was 30mins late this morning due to trying to find fuel.

That's actually quite a good idea - although you would have to disallow jerry cans.

Because there’s no issues where I am?

But in ‘north Wales’ there are lots of issues, you live in one particular part. 

Anecdata: Multiple supermarkets with obvious areas of empty shelving (and notices to that effect) here in South Manchester. Its been like that for weeks. Essential stuff seems to be available though. I needed petrol on Friday afternoon before driving over to Gogarth for the weekend and the first garage I tried had massive queues. I had a bit of a wait at the second one, and it appeared to have no diesel. Queues for fuel were backing up onto the A55 on both my outbound and return journeys. A few people I was climbing with managed to get fuel on Anglesey without too much trouble though.

Editorial: Perhaps there are (technically) driver shortages in the EU, but those drivers don't have to contend with hard borders, customs checks and visa requirements just to do their job. They also don't have to risk their vehicles being stuck in the jurisdiction of an unfriendly nation. So, basically, less friction and stuff getting moved more easily. Why don't we sign-up?

Please inform your dear wife that motorcycles, scooters and mopeds have rather small fuel tanks.

Please also inform her that said vehicles are the ones that use the LEAST fuel per mile and occupy the LEAST space on the road. They are therefore less environmentally unfriendly in comparison with other vehicles and should be used more often as an alternative.

How does using less road space make them better, environmentally? Isn't lifetime emissions the correct criteria?

Less roadbuilding, fewer traffic jams, less tyee and brake pad wear and lower emissions.

Hmm. Maybe.

Motorcycles certainly produce about half the non-exhaust emissions of cars, due to having fewer brake pads and tyres. That didn't occur to me.

For greenhouse gas emissions, cars and motorbikes are very similar (see figure 1 in * below) although the mix differs. As for road building and congestion, the main driver is the number of journeys made, which is in turn driven by increased road building, not vehicle size.

And motorcycles emit significantly more noise than cars.

Anyway, this is kind of off-topic. Apologies for that.

* https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/...

(Edit: Scary details about non-exhaust emissions can be found in https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/documents/reports/cat09/1907101151_20190.... See the tables on page 21.)

I love the idea that continental drivers are going to leave their current steady jobs, and come to the UK for a 3 month contract because we've allowed them to.

If any drivers come at all, it will inevitably be the ones who couldn't get steady jobs in the EU - the ones who aren't much cop. 

To the OP - we're currently driving back from Perpignan to Calais - no sign of any petrol shortages - or food for that matter, the shelves at Macon Intermarche were groaning. Quite right too, it is the season of 'mists and mellow fruitfulness.'

If anyone wants to make it worth my while, we could always ditch the duty free wine and bring petrol back instead...

24 .75 L bottles of fuel aren’t going too far, I’d stick with the wine personally.

The petrol station in Betwys y coed was closed on Sunday evening, Llangollen petrol station had a limit on how much fuel you could buy. I don't think North Wales is that immune to this fuel issue.

That is true - an exception will be made

But I don't think your second assertion is true. Scooters (2-stroke) environmentally friendly? Have you ever been to Kalymnos? Motor cycles use less fuel? I've never had one, but a pal of mine has one and he says it does 30 mpg. 

Never had one either but they only seem to operate in two modes - stopped, or accelerating ridiculously fast, so I doubt they're that efficient*.

*obviously I'm trolling and we're completely off topic but is 'off belay' but living in a mountain area, I notice 90% of motorcycle visitors don't come to enjoy the scenery, they come to suicidally and noisily thrash the hell out of their bikes on alpine roads.

On Sunday we were driving home and the motorbike right on our arse (we were 5km from home so we weren't slow, hesitant tourists) decided to overtake us on a bend with and he didn't see the car coming the other way. He (I assume he) had no choice but to cut left into the gutter on the wrong side of the road narrowly missing a ditch to his left and the oncoming car to his right, and I'm sure epically soiling his motorcycle leathers in the process.

Some of them are bloody noisy. I live on a busy roundabout and am particularly bothered by the tinny ones driven by kids and the growly ones driven by hairy arsed fat blokes who can't sit up straight. Noise is an environmental nuisance.

I have two cars and six two-wheelers (a Honda 50 isn't a motorcycle). Both my cars use twice as much fuel as the motorbikes including my 900. The Honda use so little it's not worth measuring.

And none are killer diesels!

I stand corrected.

Just to correct your stereotype: most of the ones I encounter sit up straight to eat their burgers and I've no idea how hirsute their arses are. They are all bald though.

That's shocking. What a stupid country we live in. And where's the opposition to this ghastly government? Nowhere.

I know. That's what hurts most. We've a huge opportunity to rebuild, but the most avaricious are in power and steadily securing ownership of generational wealth.

Minimum wage and zero hours contracts mean home ownership is a a dream for many. Rents are squeezing the finances of those with any money. Tax rises are hitting the poor. Welfare is used to subsidise parasitic business models.

On current trajectory I guarantee the Conservatives will get re-elected.

Fiona Volpe in Thunderball firing rockets from her bike - she wasn't like that I think ...

In today’s Guardian letter page too!

Your talking tourist hotspots there. Again, where I live, there are no issues. Garages have fuel and shops have food of all varieties.

Why the negative response? I can send you some fuel and food of your choice if need any?

You might want to ask your pal just how he rides his. I've got an 800cc Kawasaki and it's doing most of 80mpg for all motoring, both town and on a run.

You're right on the emissions from 2-stroke Scooters. But at least they don't occupy quite so much road as cars/vans, and the cr*p I've seen coming out of some cars/vans (diesel ??) is unbelievable. Maybe if they put 4-stroke engines in all Scooters/Mopeds they'd be a better option.

Don't worry, Winter is coming - and Autumn is already here - most (if not all) of the plonkers you're talking about are the fair-weather bikers who'll hibernate until next summer.

I've just ordered a new pair of boots for the coming Winter, as I ride all year round - mainly to work and back ! You won't see me "tear-assing" around or hear me making undue (and unacceptable) noise.

Shock in Copenhagen as they only had medium avocados in Lidl, not large. Fortunately the supermarket next door (Føtex) saved the day.

They do, except for a few very specialist off road bikes - by 2015 the only 2 stroke road bike was the Aprilia RS50.

Although interestingly there are a couple of companies looking into reintroducing 2 strokes with some v. clever new technology......

I do like the "a pal of mine says" posts.  Generally designed to wrap up an obvious load of doo-dah with plausible deniability.

I think he rides quite sedately as a matter of fact. I know the bike is about 25 years old. I think it’s  Yamaha with a shaft drive. No idea if any of that is relevant, but I’ve about lost interest now! 😊

Why would they?

This problem is of our own making.

Here in Alicante province, there is a tragic lack of oat cakes

For reasons I won't go into, Ive   just done 1500km in a hired car in 5 days in France and not the whiff of a problem  in fueling or the motorways or food supplies. I believe there's has been a Covid-19 pandemic over here too, even though according to IDS, a proponent for half the lies that led to Brexit and now knighted for his services to the Johnston cause, that the fuel shortage was due purely to the  Covid pandemic and nothing to do with Brexit. I am sure those who voted to leave Europe wil be reassured that they had indeed understood the issues involved when they voted rightly, and that their preoccupation about having a turkey for Christmas will prove to be baseless as the army is roped in to drive the delivery supplies for that overwhelmingly important day.

Personally, I believe IDS should be kept as a sort of canary down a mine. Whatever he approves of or thinks is a good idea, we can immediately see as a danger signal and get the hell out of there.

The acute problem for the UK is Brexit but that doesn't mean there aren't some fairly serious chronic problems faced by every country.

Talking about driver shortages in Europe is a Brexiteer distraction narrative similar to a guy with aggressive cancer trying to persuade himself he doesn't need treatment because most people over 70 have underlying health problems.   

Daughter is in Berlin and there's no shortages and a lot less Covid there.

Nope - no issues in France last week at all... though I do have to import Lyles Golden Syrup from Saudi sometimes.

OMG! How you must be suffering.