Quality wine

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 aln 29 Nov 2020

I know there's some people on here who appreciate good wine. If you had 50 to 100 £ to spend on a bottle of red wine, what would you buy? Not something to put down, not an investment, something to drink. And available online. 

 SouthernSteve 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

The law of diminishing returns is very much operating here. In a restaurant £40 might be ok for a special occasion, but to me anything more than this seems profligate. I usually try them when we are out and then if good, buy for home ( a very rare sport these days and no where near your target price ). 

5
 walts4 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

Depends on your taste, Pinot Noir, Burgundy?

Maybe a Volnay or a Pommard for mid level Pricing?

Berry Brothers seem to have the best selection but I’ve never bought from them.

 Blue Straggler 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

I have no real idea but maybe approach it by searching by vineyards for a grape that you like, and looking at their higher end offerings. I don’t know if there was some brainwashing or “kidding myself” going on but one of the best I’ve had was one I bought after a “free” wine tasting visit in Tuscany, I paid 14 Euro as it was direct from the vineyard, the mark up by the time it would have reached the UK might have made it about £50-60. Unfortunately it was little bit lost on me because after buying it I realised I had to neck it that night in a slightly seedy AirBnB room in Venice as I was flying home the next day, hand baggage only. It was a bit like the end of Sideways 🤣

1
 Philip 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

Very odd price range. If you look on the wine society's site, in that range their are very few (maybe 6) bottles that have 4/5 or better, but 500 options in that range. Would seem to be very hit and miss.

You'd get some excellent port or brandy for that, but the wine will be very subjective. If for yourself your already know, in which case it's a gift and then what do you want - something amazing they'll love required knowledge of what they like. If you simply want to show off then buy from somewhere that will leave a price sticker on it.

If all else fails, pop into an independent wine store for a Nuits Saint - George.

Edit. If you do go for port, then 1977 vintage or 1983.

Post edited at 07:53
1
 steve taylor 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

The top-end bottles from the vineyards around us (St Chinian appellation controlee) are about 15-20 euros. They often cost 30-50 GBP in the UK.

2
Gone for good 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

A Grand Cru Classe tends to be at the more expensive end of the wine range and the older, the more expensive. There are plenty of choices at the price range you refer to but whether they are value for money is for someone else to say.

I think you can buy online from Majestic.

https://www.majestic.co.uk/wines/chateau-belair-st-emilion-2003-61251?gclid...

If its a gift you want there are options like this.

https://www.vintagewinegifts.co.uk/acatalog/1999-Chateau-Les-Grands-Marecha...

Post edited at 08:15
 Lankyman 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

> I know there's some people on here who appreciate good wine. If you had 50 to 100 £ to spend on a bottle of red wine, what would you buy? Not something to put down, not an investment, something to drink. And available online. 


I have this very quandary every year! My employer gives all staff Christmas vouchers which can be spent in the stores. Last year I bought a few essentials but the bulk went on £5 (or near) bottles of red wine. The supply lasts me all year and more. My favourite (I wrote it down so I can get some more) is McGuigan's Cabernet Shiraz. None tasted like paint stripper but not that bothered with the Gran Tesoro Garnacha Rosado. That was going to be foisted on the sister-in-law but covid has put paid to that.

True quality is probably wasted on people like me who can't tell their ar*e from their elbow in matters of taste.

Post edited at 09:26
3
 Richard J 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

I think this is a slightly awkward price range in which it would be very easy to end up disappointed.  I think the most important thing is to find a trustworthy wine merchant that regularly sells wine in this range.  I think Berry Bros as mentioned above would be ok, I've found Gauntley's of Nottingham to be very reliable myself (both available on-line).  Then you need to remember that pretty much all wine in this price range will be made to be aged, but many of the bottles on sale will still be too young to be at their best for immediate drinking.

If it was me I'd probably look for a Rhone wine with a bit of age.  The Rhone is a bit less fashionable than Burgundy or Bordeaux so at this price you should be able to get a 5-10 yr old bottle from a very good grower from Cote Rotie, Hermitage or Chateauneuf-du-Pape, say.  I'm less keen on Bordeaux (just as a matter of personal taste), Burgundy can be sublime but it seems much more hit-and-miss.  (Other countries make fine wine too, I just know less about them.)

 Jon Stewart 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

Before you spend £100 on a bottle of wine, watch Sour Grapes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPUYuwSRwB8&ab_channel=Dogwoof

Or read this:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-scie....

If you *really* want to enjoy a bottle of wine, you'd be better off being tricked into believing you'd spent 100 quid on it, while pocketing £80. With which you could buy more quality booze in a sensible price bracket that isn't a total sham.

1
 Helen R 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

I like wine, go to vineyards, and have a fair understanding of the basics, but don't have the budget for a collection...yet. I've started buying wine through a small local company, run by two women with lots of experience in the business, that run a wine subscription, with lots of small vineyards in the mix.  I get their cheapest option, but alomost all the wine I've had from them this year has been amazing, and much better that I could choose at the supermarket for the same price. They have one-off gifts and selections through their website too. It's New Zealand, so not an option for you, but is there a similar company near you that you could look into? 

 Robert Durran 29 Nov 2020

While all you wine experts are here, may I ask a question? I have a bottle of top end Burgundy Grand Cru 1990 which I bought from the grower for about £15 on my way back from the Alps around that time. I imagine it might now, unfortunately, be past its best. But could it actually have gone off and be harmful while still tasting OK? 

 Tom Valentine 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Ironic that people are now probably chasing after bottles of Rudy's wine and paying daft money for them because owning such a celebrated fake will have its own cachet.

Added to which they probably taste quite good: he didn't arrive at them by mixing together stuff off the bottom shelf  with " product of Europe" as its stated origin.

1
 Richard J 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

No.  Good wine that's left too long generally ends up tasting just generically mellow, and even if it's developed a fault like oxidation the worst that can happen is that you'll find it too unpleasant to drink.  Open it and see what it's like!

 Jon Stewart 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Ironic that people are now probably chasing after bottles of Rudy's wine and paying daft money for them because owning such a celebrated fake will have its own cachet.

Brilliant. Just like the career of Mr Brainwash after Exit Through The Giftshop.

> Added to which they probably taste quite good: he didn't arrive at them by mixing together stuff off the bottom shelf  with " product of Europe" as its stated origin.

Yes. It's not that there's no difference between a horrible bottle of wine and a good one. It's that there's no relationship between price and how enjoyable the taste is, above a certain price mark (which maybe goes up a bit with experience in tasting, but unlikely to get anywhere near £50 for anyone).

mattmurphy 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

If this is a gift why not get a case or a half case of something a bit cheaper? BBR should be able to steer you in the right direction.

As other have pointed out, unless you know what you like this price bracket can be a bit hit and miss.

Personally I’d rather have 6 bottles of something tasty rather than one bottle of something very tasty. 

 Jon Stewart 29 Nov 2020
In reply to mattmurphy:

> Personally I’d rather have 6 bottles of something tasty rather than one bottle of something very tasty. 

I'd rather have 6 bottles of something tasty than one bottle of something equally tasty.

1
 Jamie Wakeham 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

Is this for yourself or as a gift?

This is a price range where knowing your individual taste is really important.  I could easily find a bottle where I'd think 'yep - that was exactly what I wanted and worth the outlay', and also another bottle where it simply didn't match my taste and, despite being excellent, wasn't for me.  And the difference can be really subtle. I'd spend that sort of money on a left bank Bordeaux for a special occasion, but not a right bank, because I know the right bank would be wasted on me but the left bank wouldn't.

So, if it's for you, then tell us what you like and we can play the fun game of 'if you like X, you'll love Y!'

If it's a gift then we can only play to what most people tend to like.  I wouldn't head to Bordeaux at all in those circumstances, because decent claret is quite an acquired taste.  Burgundy is a better shout but it's become incredibly overpriced in recent years.  I think I'd look at Northern Rhone - Cote-Rotie or top Crozes-Hermitage.  Maybe Rioja.  Or top Aussie Shiraz.  There are some stunning but relatively accessible wines out there.

Finally - think about age.  Most reds in this price range won't be in their drinking window until 10 years old, and some might take 20 years.  It is annoyingly easy to buy something which, whilst fairly priced, isn't going to be worth drinking for a long time.  But it is so vintage variable.

Or, as Philip suggested, aged port.  1977 and 1983 are indeed drinking well now; 1982 and 1980 are also good.  You might be able to find 1970, 1966 or 1963 - the best I ever had was a Taylor's 1966 which was absolutely heavenly two years ago.

 Jon Stewart 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Have you tried blind tasting? 

 Jamie Wakeham 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I have a bottle of top end Burgundy Grand Cru 1990...I imagine it might now, unfortunately, be past its best.

Not necessarily.  Which grower, which cru?  And how has it been stored?

> But could it actually have gone off and be harmful while still tasting OK? 

In my experience the worst that can happen if it is still drinkable is that it might give you a stiff hangover. I don't think it could be actively harmful.

 Jamie Wakeham 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

A bit.  It's bloody difficult!  I don't do it seriously, but it can be a good way to force yourself to analyse what' going on closely.

A while back, I knew a few people from the Oxford blind tasting group (they have a Varsity match... of course!) and they took it incredibly seriously.  They could be very impressive, though.

 arch 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

I'd buy two bottles of Cloudy Bay Pinot Noir. Failing that, a good bottle of Chateauneuf-du-pape.

Two totally different types of wine, but both are very nice.

 Jon Stewart 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> A bit.  It's bloody difficult!  I don't do it seriously, but it can be a good way to force yourself to analyse what' going on closely.

Of course it's hard. Because the way perception works is that your brain doesn't just process the sensory input and give you a faithful readout of what compounds are present in the wine; it uses a huge network of associations formed from prior experience to create the perception. 

So, if you taste blind, your experience will be totally different to if you knew what it was. In the latter case, your brain sets up the expectations by reading the label, then if those expectations are reasonably confirmed by your olfactory system (i.e. it is plausibly what it said on the label, not just dishwater etc), you then experience what you expect with some modulation from the olfactory system, which is playing a much smaller role than anyone spending £50+ on a bottle of wine is ever going to accept.

The wine industry pretends that it is the actual contents of the bottle, as opposed to the label, which is correlated with the value. But the role of the label in setting expectations is doing most of the work in terms of what the experience is like when you drink it, because that's how the brain works.

> A while back, I knew a few people from the Oxford blind tasting group (they have a Varsity match... of course!) and they took it incredibly seriously.

I bet they did. It's quite plausible that you could train your olfactory system to pick out and identify certain compounds with a lot of effort and money. Is it worthwhile, or just a silly game that earns status in a narrow community? Just because that's possible, it doesn't lend any credence to the idea that a bottle of wine for £50-100 is any more enjoyable because of its contents than one at £20.

Post edited at 10:46
 Jamie Wakeham 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I get what you are saying and I don't deny there is some truth to it.  In part, we drink the label - that's acknowledged.  I have a half bottle of D'Yquem that I picked up as part of a swap earlier this year, and we'll probably have that on Christmas day.  I am ridiculously excited because I've never tried D'Yquem before, and I completely accept that the name on the label is a significant part of what I will experience when I drink it.

But I would disagree that all wines above £20 are indistinguishably good, and that spending more is therefore automatically a waste of money.  Isn't that quite easily disproved by the fact that I've had very expensive* bottles that I've been disappointed by?  Not that they've been faulty, just that they weren't to my taste, so the bottle expectation is not enough to overrule my preferences.

* for scale - we usually drink stuff that would cost, if you bought them here**, in the £10-£15 range.  I see £20-£30 as pushing the boat out, and anything over £40 as a special bottle worthy of a celebration.

** much of our wine comes from buying direct from Caves on the way back from climbing trips so it's about half the price you'd pay here.  

 Jon Stewart 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I get what you are saying and I don't deny there is some truth to it.  In part, we drink the label - that's acknowledged...I completely accept that the name on the label is a significant part of what I will experience when I drink it.

Yes, it doesn't make a bottle of wine less enjoyable if you can see some of the conjuring tricks involved in making it enjoyable. We still like magic tricks even though we know they're tricks.

But at the same time, it seems to me a lot of people really believe that there is something in the chemistry of a £100 bottle of wine that makes it worth £100, when there isn't - it's in the psychology.

> But I would disagree that all wines above £20 are indistinguishably good, and that spending more is therefore automatically a waste of money.

It's a bit more complicated than that, because the more wine you drink, the more your network of associations and expectations is built up around the origin/vintage on the label, and the olfactory experience. So if you've got those associations built up because you've drunk certain wines in reinforcing, esteem-building circumstances, then your brain will reward you with enjoyment when you when you repeat the behaviour. Your associations might be built around £50 bottles, in which case it will take £50 bottles to deliver the experience. You would of course get the same experience from a similar enough £20 wine that you believed was £50.

But if you're used to drinking £10 bottles, then there's going to be zero correlation between enjoyment and price in the £50-100 range, other than because you knew the price. There's no plausible mechanism for a £100 wine being "nicer" than a £50 wine if you don't have associations built up first.

> Isn't that quite easily disproved by the fact that I've had very expensive* bottles that I've been disappointed by?  Not that they've been faulty, just that they weren't to my taste, so the bottle expectation is not enough to overrule my preferences.

Well it's a bit annoying when something goes wrong and there's some mismatch between the expectations and the sensory input - the hope is that the sensory input matches the expectations and triggers the reward circuitry. If the sensory data is out of whack and forces you to override your expectations then you won't get the same reward response. As you say, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with the wine, it just means that it's not to your taste, i.e. you don't have associations built up for that mixture of compounds that trigger the reward response. It's not that the contents of the bottle is irrelevant, it's that it only modulates the brain response a bit. In some cases, it will unfortunately modulate it negatively and you feel disappointment rather than satisfaction.

It's interesting to think/speculate about!

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 Robert Durran 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Not necessarily.  Which grower, which cru?  And how has it been stored?

Morey St. Denis Clos Vouget grand cru. I think the grower was  Dubois - can check when I get home. Actually not sure now whether it was '90 or '91 but I know I have looked it up and it was a very good vintage.

Post edited at 11:51
 Robert Durran 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Richard J:

> No.  Good wine that's left too long generally ends up tasting just generically mellow, and even if it's developed a fault like oxidation the worst that can happen is that you'll find it too unpleasant to drink.  Open it and see what it's like!

Thanks. That is what I wanted to hear!

 Jamie Wakeham 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

OK.  The Clos de Vougeot is a really large Grand Cru (the designation goes to the vineyard in Burgundy, not the grower) and there are many producers who have plots in there, so it is really variable.  Exactly who made the wine and how they treated it will be important, and I don't know Dunois - check the spelling when you get home.

Morey-St-Denis is where the producer will be based - the Clos de Vougeot is a few miles down the road from Morey, but that's not at all uncommon.

A decently made Vougeot from a good year can be near immortal.  I've had a bottle of 1959 (got it for pennies at auction) and it was good.  If you've kept this bottle in decent conditions - steady temp and laying on its side - then there's every chance it'll be in fine nick!

 The New NickB 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

I tend to mainly drink wine that is under £30 a bottle, I'm not sure my palette is refined enough to see much of a measurable benefit beyond that, so cannot really advise on wine in the £50-100 price bracket, but I use these guys:

https://www.gerrardseel.co.uk/collections/red-wine

The service has always been excellent and I've not had a bad bottle off them. I was searching for something specific and they had a supply, but I have since bought lots of different wines from them.

Don't forget, whatever you buy, how you treat it once you open the bottle can significantly change you experience of the wine.

Post edited at 12:09
 Jamie Wakeham 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> ...a lot of people really believe that there is something in the chemistry of a £100 bottle of wine that makes it worth £100, when there isn't - it's in the psychology.

With my tongue rather firmly in my cheek: all oil paintings are chemically the same stuff.  Would you argue they all have the same value?

Obviously the 'value' of wine is subject to things like scarcity and snobbery.  I don't think it costs £800 to produce a bottle of Mouton Rothschild - it's worth that because that is what some people will pay for it.

But there are clear differences in production techniques that will mean one wine costs more to make than another.  There are different land values, and choices to be made about planting density and vine age - older wines produce smaller amounts of more concentrated wine.  These all have clearly measurable impacts upon the chemistry of what ends up in the bottle.

In reply to aln:

Spend the first £20 to join the Wine Society. And then, as others have said, what is your taste? Are you planning to have it with food, if so what?

The Wine Society's Exhibition range can be stunningly good value, eg https://www.thewinesociety.com/shop/productdetail.aspx?section=pd&pl=AE... which is made by J L Chave, who is arguably the best producer of Hermitage

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

What year is the Yquem? A friend bought a case of 2001 and I have been lucky enough to share a couple of them (halves). Amazing but not 20 times as good as the 2001 Coutet that I bought En Primeur about 18 years ago. Still have a couple left I think

 Jamie Wakeham 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

1999, in half bottle.  I hope it should be about spot on by now.

A few years back we had a bottle of 1976 Rieussec (again, scored at auction for pennies).  Possibly the high point of my wine drinking life so far.  

I've not tried that Exhibition Hermitage yet - must put it on the list!  I adore Thalabert so it should be right up my street.

 Jon Stewart 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> With my tongue rather firmly in my cheek: all oil paintings are chemically the same stuff.  Would you argue they all have the same value?

No, but I would argue that there is a very similar culture of bullshit in the art and wine worlds. Sour Grapes and Exit Through The Giftshop are two of my favourite ever films. People are told by people with authority "this is good" and it becomes "good" not because of what it is, but because of what has been said about it.

> Obviously the 'value' of wine is subject to things like scarcity and snobbery.  I don't think it costs £800 to produce a bottle of Mouton Rothschild - it's worth that because that is what some people will pay for it.

Yes. I'm talking about what factors are influencing the market.

> But there are clear differences in production techniques that will mean one wine costs more to make than another.  There are different land values, and choices to be made about planting density and vine age - older wines produce smaller amounts of more concentrated wine.  These all have clearly measurable impacts upon the chemistry of what ends up in the bottle.

There are three layers to be separated here:

1. The actual cost of production. No one's saying this is what drives the price

2. The taste of the wine. Ignoring obviously "souvenir" wines, this is what is purported to be driving the price

3. The purely psychological construct created by the label and what people say about it. This is what I'm arguing is actually driving the price - the evidence is that blind tasting is, as you acknowledge, really difficult and you could be very easily fooled if someone mischievously swapped the contents of bottles around

It's very different to many (real) art forms where "blind tasting" is normal. It's really common to hear music or see a film or painting knowing nothing about it and be completely blown away.

Post edited at 13:03
 daftdazza 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

For me personally the sweet spot for good quality wine is between £10 - £20, with ever diminishing returns for any more spent above this level, can find some extremely good Rioja between £20-£30.  I don't think you ever need to spend more to drink good wine.

I would also stay clear of French wine, no value there, and price heavily inflated depending on area and old fashioned French wine production rules which make it expensive to produce good wine compared to Spain, Portugal, Romania, Greece, south Africa etc where you can find good wine for fraction of the price.

Douro wines offer particular good value for great wine with like of Casa Ferreirinha, Callabriga Douro Tinto could be considered as a fine wine but costing less than 17 quid a bottle.

2
 Jon Stewart 29 Nov 2020
In reply to daftdazza:

> For me personally the sweet spot for good quality wine is between £10 - £20, with ever diminishing returns for any more spent above this level, can find some extremely good Rioja between £20-£30.  I don't think you ever need to spend more to drink good wine.

> I would also stay clear of French wine

Haha! Check this out:

https://yourlisten.com/jonstew/we-built-this-city

> Douro wines offer particular good value

Good call! 

 PJD 29 Nov 2020
In reply to arch:

> I'd buy two bottles of Cloudy Bay Pinot Noir. Failing that, a good bottle of Chateauneuf-du-pape.

> Two totally different types of wine, but both are very nice.

Try Central Otago PN in preference to CB or any other Marlborough PN.

 Rob Parsons 29 Nov 2020
In reply to daftdazza:

> I would also stay clear of French wine, no value there, and price heavily inflated depending on area ...

Poor advice.

 walts4 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Poor advice.

Totally poor advice.

Depending on your taste profile, so much Value to be found in Beaujolais cru wine. 

Although to find the best selection it’s best to visit the area & buy at source.

 plyometrics 29 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

Save yourself some hard earned cash by spending £30 on a Chateau Musar; you’ll not be disappointed. 

mattmurphy 29 Nov 2020
In reply to plyometrics:

> Save yourself some hard earned cash by spending £30 on a Chateau Musar; you’ll not be disappointed. 

Good choice. A bit different, but very enjoyable. The younger ones can be a bit harsh so the older the better.

I’d also recommend 2013 Domaine Tempier Bandol which is much more classical than Chateau Musar, but still has some of the same spiced notes. Similar-ish price bracket, £30-£40.

Old Skooled 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

I was lucky enough to be present for one of the Yquem drinking occasions - I thought it was incredible and worth every penny (not that I was paying). There was a lot of very good wine drunk that night.

In reply to Old Skooled:

Ah, the Professor

Joe donated another 1/2 for a meal with Si & Kath Jones, I took a 96 and Si took another year.

I have some 2015 as well, you never know you might get lucky, it might be ready for our 65th.

 daftdazza 29 Nov 2020
In reply to walts4:

I agree Beaujolais can be good, but still expensive compared to what you could find in Spain for similar or better quality.  If people want to visit vineyards to buy great wine rarely available in UK I would advise visiting Catalonia, beautiful natural wine for 8 to 15 euros a bottle and often won't pay more than 20 euros for a bottle at good restaurants in cities such as Girona.

2
 Robert Durran 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> OK.  The Clos de Vougeot is a really large Grand Cru (the designation goes to the vineyard in Burgundy, not the grower) and there are many producers who have plots in there, so it is really variable.

> Morey-St-Denis is where the producer will be based - the Clos de Vougeot is a few miles down the road from Morey, but that's not at all uncommon.

> A decently made Vougeot from a good year can be near immortal.  I've had a bottle of 1959 (got it for pennies at auction) and it was good.  If you've kept this bottle in decent conditions - steady temp and laying on its side - then there's every chance it'll be in fine nick!

Here is a photo of the bottle. Got the grower muddled with this other bottle I have. Both have been stored pretty well I think. I bought the wine from Mr Raphet himself pretty much out of his garage after tasting! Seemed a small operation.


 walts4 29 Nov 2020
In reply to daftdazza:

> I agree Beaujolais can be good, but still expensive compared to what you could find in Spain for similar or better quality.  If people want to visit vineyards to buy great wine rarely available in UK I would advise visiting Catalonia, beautiful natural wine for 8 to 15 euros a bottle and often won't pay more than 20 euros for a bottle at good restaurants in cities such as Girona.

Last time (2 years ago) I bought Beaujolais cru at the either the village cooperative or the vineyard, averaged out at 10 euros a bottle, so definitely falls into your definition  of affordable.

There’s lots of great wine out there to be discovered, just have to find the grape that suits your taste, just unfortunate that in the UK the price is skewed towards the astronomic. 

 daftdazza 29 Nov 2020
In reply to walts4:

I totally agree, hard to find in the UK affordable wine from small independent vineyards, a ten euro bottle of good wine from Catalonia will likely cost £20-25 here and much more in a restaurant, not retailers fault due to tax etc.  

 Jamie Wakeham 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

I wouldn't hold out great hopes for the NSG; it'll probably be drinkable, and might be interesting in a faded sort of way, but really it was probably at peak somewhere between 2000 and 2005.

The Clos de Vougeot could well be very good!  Certainly, there are some growers who aim for structured and long lasting wines, and if this is one of those, then thirty years is probably only just hitting its stride.  There are other growers who aim for their wine to be more accessible in youth, for whom this would be long past prime.  Annoyingly I don't know which camp Raphet falls into - seems to be a tiny operator.

If I were you, I'd stand the bottle up one Sunday morning, open it about an hour before a roast chicken was ready to serve, and decant only about ten minutes before you want to start drinking it (whilst muttering a quiet prayer to the gods of knackered old burgundies).  

 seankenny 30 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

This thread is half good wine recommendations, half proof that the Protestant and puritan mindsets still exert a pull on the British psyche.

 Rob Parsons 30 Nov 2020
In reply to seankenny:

> ... half proof that the Protestant and puritan mindsets still exert a pull on the British psyche.

I don't see your point.

 Jon Stewart 30 Nov 2020
In reply to seankenny:

> This thread is half good wine recommendations, half proof that some people can spot an emporor with no clothes on. 

OP aln 30 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

Just came back to this thread, and there's a lot of replies! Replies seem to vary from, yes it is worth spending a lot, to Jon Stewart saying it's all marketing to the most common view whi h seems to be that around £30 is the most worth spending.

The wine is for me, the money is someone else's. Basically someone who doesn't drink wine bought me wine for my birthday. They asked someone else to choose it but due to reasons I won't go into they made zero effort to pick something decent. I ended up with 6 bottles of Yellowtail Jammy Roo. If you've ever been unfortunate enough to have tasted this you'll know how disgusting it is. This was returned and the cash refunded. I've now been given £100 to spend on wine, and I fancy buying at least one bottle of something special that I would never normally be able to afford.

As far as my tastes, I don't really know the jargon, so not sure how to describe it. Stuff that's deep and dark, full bodied, bit of tannin, not too much oak. 

 Jamie Wakeham 30 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

Do you have any sense of preferring new or old world wine?

The TWS Hermitage mentioned above might be a very good shout. 

mattmurphy 30 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

>  I ended up with 6 bottles of Yellowtail Jammy Roo. 

You poor sod.

What about Chateau Brane-Cantenac, Margaux 2010? Probably could do with another couple of years to mature, but it will still be excellent.

In reply to aln:

If you have £100, spend £20 on TWS membership , get a red Hermitage and a bottle of The Society's Exhibition Chablis Premier Cru Montmains 2019. That's £58, you need to spend £75 to get free delivery so just find an Exhibtion wine for £17-£21 and bobsyeruncle

Gone for good 30 Nov 2020
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

> If you have £100, spend £20 on TWS membership , get a red Hermitage and a bottle of The Society's Exhibition Chablis Premier Cru Montmains 2019. That's £58, you need to spend £75 to get free delivery so just find an Exhibtion wine for £17-£21 and bobsyeruncle

Or do what I've just done, go to Majestic Wines and stick another £120 onto the £100 and walk away with 6 bottles of Chateau Musar 2001, 2 bottles of Nicolas Feuillatte champagne , a bottle of 10 yr Tawny Port and a Loire Valley Cremant! 

Post edited at 18:21
 Jamie Wakeham 30 Nov 2020
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Using some of this money to join the Wine Society is a very good call.  And any plan that involves Premier Cru Chablis is a good one in my book.

Musar is something everyone should try at least once - TWS only has the 2013 in stock, which I suspect might be a bit young, though.

Final thought - Argentinian Malbec might be interesting.

 mbh 30 Nov 2020
In reply to aln:

It would appear now to be out of your price range, but for £40-ish, 25-ish years ago I bought a bottle of Gaja Barbaresco. I don't know what year it was, but it remains as the loveliest wine I have ever drunk.

 Tom Valentine 30 Nov 2020
In reply to mbh:

Looks like£150 ish now

OP aln 03 Dec 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Do you have any sense of preferring new or old world wine?

I never buy French wine here, at my usual price range it's usually crap. I do like Rioja. I like some Australian Shiraz, and S American stuff, from Argentina, Chile. 

OP aln 03 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

I'm trending towards a Musar or a Margaux. Maybe try 1 one bottle and see how it goes, rather than spend it all at once. Problem is there's owhere near that sells wine other than supermarkets, and the online vendors seem to only deal in half cases upwards, not individual bottles. 

mattmurphy 03 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

BBR and Majestic allow you to order single bottles now (I just went online and got through to checkout and everything seemed to be fine).

Waitrose sells Musar if there’s one close to you (and I think some Co-op stores might do too, but don’t quote me on that).

J1234 03 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

Before you spend your money, possibly read or listen to this https://freakonomics.com/podcast/freakonomics-radio-do-more-expensive-wines...

 JerryD 03 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

These guys are very good: https://www.drinkfinder.co.uk/ 

They're in Cornwall and have a staggering collection of wines and spirits.

OP aln 03 Dec 2020
In reply to JerryD:

Thanks. 

In reply to aln:

Rudd 'Crossroads' Cabernet Sauvignon Oakville 2016. Had this at a wedding i went to in Vegas last year. One of the finest Napa valley reds. 

2012 Beaumes de Venise Grangeneuve 2012. First had this as a £25 restaurant wine years ago. Increased in price steadily ever since. Shows the value of buying a case of really good £25 wines when you come across one. 

Both divine and now about £60. Enjoy

Looking forward to a trying out some of the suggestions here but wines at this cost are a treat i allow mysel a couple of times a year. 

 Jamie Wakeham 03 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

https://www.cellartracker.com/notes.asp?iWine=2079088&searchId=87B23AC9...

By the looks of it, 2008 is a decent Musar - perhaps a little young, and perhaps not as wildly 'out there' as some older vintages have been.  There is a sense that Musar is becoming a bit more by-the-numbers and less outlandish than once it had been.  

 Pedro50 03 Dec 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I've never been a fan of Musar despite once sharing a 1/2 bottle with Oz Clarke (i was the only person who turned up at his Nottingham book signing.) Personally I favour southern Rhone.  

 Jamie Wakeham 03 Dec 2020
In reply to Pedro50:

I love Musar, but I fully accept that older vintages could well turn out to be bonkers, and I'm not too susceptible to brett!  If it's becoming more predictable under the younger Hochar then I guess that's a good thing..?

For the OP, just starting out, perhaps the Rhone is a safer bet.  I still think the best thing they could do is use the first £20 of that sum to join the Wine Society.

 Pedro50 03 Dec 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Well I met Oz in 1991, can't recall the vintage but it seemed acetic and vinegary as did other 1980s I tried. Hopefully it's more consistent now. 

 John2 03 Dec 2020
In reply to Pedro50:

One of the best bottles of wine I ever drank was a Musar (sorry, can't remember the vintage) in a Lebanese restaurant in Oxford. This would have been around 2000 and the bottle was over 5 years old. The bottle that I ordered from the menu was sold out, and unprompted they gave me an older vintage for the same price.

If you want a good value bottle of wine at the moment, look at the Cave de Tain Crozes Hermitage at Waitrose, currently reduced from £15.99 to £10.00.

OP aln 03 Dec 2020
In reply to John2:

No Waitrose near me. 

 John2 03 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

Me neither. Mail order. One bottle upwards, I think (I ordered 12).

 walts4 03 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

Order on line, delivery to the door.

OP aln 03 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

To the thread. I get the marketing thing, I really do. But I also know that cheap wine is crap. I've done blind tastings, and red wines £10 and above have won. Maybe 50 upwards is a waste of time. But 30 to 50 maybe worth it. There's a flavour in these wines that I don't know how to describe, a mellow intensity, a richness that seeps into your mouth, it goes down the back of your mouth after you swallow (😘) and lingers for a while. That's what I'm looking for. 

 Jamie Wakeham 03 Dec 2020
In reply to John2:

I know that restaurant very well!  Bloody good Arak, too.

 Offwidth 04 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

I thought I had nothing to add to this thread as I don''t drink so much wine over £20 and Richard and Graeme had said what I might. Plus my surprise discovery of the glorious quality of good year Beaumes de Venice red, a few years back, was covered by becauseitsthere. Then I just remembered the deliciously rich Dingac that the superyacht set drink in Croatia. Highly recommended.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinga%C4%8D_(wine)

Post edited at 12:24
 Franco Cookson 04 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

> Just came back to this thread, and there's a lot of replies! Replies seem to vary from, yes it is worth spending a lot, to Jon Stewart saying it's all marketing to the most common view whi h seems to be that around £30 is the most worth spending.

> The wine is for me, the money is someone else's. Basically someone who doesn't drink wine bought me wine for my birthday. They asked someone else to choose it but due to reasons I won't go into they made zero effort to pick something decent. I ended up with 6 bottles of Yellowtail Jammy Roo. If you've ever been unfortunate enough to have tasted this you'll know how disgusting it is. This was returned and the cash refunded. I've now been given £100 to spend on wine, and I fancy buying at least one bottle of something special that I would never normally be able to afford.

> As far as my tastes, I don't really know the jargon, so not sure how to describe it. Stuff that's deep and dark, full bodied, bit of tannin, not too much oak. 

A Priorat might be worth a shout? Or something from Portugal/N Spain further west. Although if you like Rioja, I'm a bit confused by your tannin tastes?

mattmurphy 04 Dec 2020
In reply to aln:

When you do get your hands on something and try it can you let us know what you think please.


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