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Public Toilets in the Peak

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All of the public toilets in Matlock and Bakewell are closed due to the Coronavirus. I imagine the case is similar throughout National Parks.

It is a Bank Holiday this weekend. 

I predict we may be about to witness what is technically referred to as a Shit Show. 

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In reply to Paul Sagar:

Councils and Parks just need to accept that whether they or the locals like it or not they are open, and reinstate these services.  Perhaps tape the urinals off - while you wouldn't be 2m away from the user of the next cubicle, there's a wall in the way, and many of them have contactless handwashing facilities these days.

They can ask people not to attend with publicity campaigns etc, but trying to stop people will just go badly wrong.

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 Trangia 20 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Not just in the Peak. Public toilets are closed all over the country. The excuse is Covid-19, what has this got to do with providing what is in effect an essential public service?

I am not alone in that I suffer from a bladder problem which makes it impossible for me to go for any length of time without having to pee. In the country that's rarely a problem with plenty of bushes, hedges and trees around, but in an urban area it becomes serious, particularly as pubs and cafes are closed, so their facilities are not available. Supermarkets used to be convenient, but not now because of the queues, you will wet yourself long before you reach the head of the queue. Jumping it just invites the wrath of shoppers!

There was a letter in our local paper from a lady who suffers from IBS, she is experiencing similar problems, and is virtually house bound, because any journey to the shops or chemist becomes problematical now.

There must be many people like us for whom local authorities are showing no consideration.

I suspect that cash strapped councils are using Covid-19 as an excuse to save money on cleaning costs rather than having a genuine reason for these closures, but they are causing unnecessary stress on many local people, quite apart from day trippers. 

It seems they don't give a shit.

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 marsbar 20 May 2020
In reply to Trangia:

Unfortunately diarrhoea is a symptom, and the virus can get into the air from both ends.  I can see why councils are keeping public toilets shut. 

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In reply to Trangia:

Yes, it seems exceptionally short-sighted and small-minded. Also, what about homeless people? They are now forced to defecate outside which I think is really very degrading. 

Perhaps councils will get their act together before the weekend...but until then, the big Sainsbury’s in Matlock is going to see a lot of non paying customer action!

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In reply to marsbar:

Is it? I’ve not heard that before. Are you sure? Covid19 is a respiratory tract infection so I’m surprised to hear that it causes digestive tract symptoms. 

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 Blue Straggler 20 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

This isn't a new development is it?

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 GrahamD 20 May 2020
In reply to Trangia:

Whereas I agree that public toilet provision is an even bigger disgrace than normal, if I were the actual individual charged with the cleaning and maintenance of these facilities without the provision of decent protection,  I might think twice about turning up to the 'office's.

Problem with all this stuff is that it's projects more people towards the front line.

The short answer to no public blogs in the Peak is don't drive all the way to the Peak for a piss.

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 galpinos 20 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Is it? I’ve not heard that before. Are you sure? Covid19 is a respiratory tract infection so I’m surprised to hear that it causes digestive tract symptoms. 

Surprised you may be but it's not new. Approx 30% of cases will have some digestive issues.

Though, as far as I'm aware, fecal/oral transmission has not been confirmed, the virus has been found in fecal samples.

As we are not meant to be travelling big distances, for most adults on a short day trip, the "go before you go" mantra should be enough to avoid you prophesied "s**t show".

Having said that, as I posted previously, I stood in a human s**t at Windgather on Sunday so maybe your worries are well founded.

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 EdS 20 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

yes the squits and stomach pains are one of the symptoms all be it less common.

It issue isn't you getting the shits in itself - it is the fact the microbial slough comes out of that end - even to the point that someone with a negative swap post infection will still be getting positive stool samples for a while.

One of the big research projects in tracking further outbreaks / pandemics if looking for biomarkers in sewage sludge

 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200506133603.htm

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/coronavirus-found-paris-sewage-points-early-warning-system

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In reply to Paul Sagar:

It doesn't need to be a bank holiday.

Yesterday: A nice little spot in a valley coming off the east side of the PDNP. A spot I've been riding to often during the lockdown with my youngest in the baby seat on the back of the bike in order for him to throw stones in the stream and play Pooh sticks on the little bridge. Some one had driven out to the layby there, changed their baby's nappy, with plentiful use of wet wipes, and then chucked the used nappy (not even rolled up and sealed) plus the soiled-wipes (again not rolled into the nappy and then sealed as I would have thought any basically functioning human being would do) over the wall into the field right by the footpath stile.

You really wonder about what happens in people's brains at times. 

Post edited at 10:10
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 daWalt 20 May 2020
In reply to marsbar:

> Unfortunately diarrhoea is a symptom, and the virus can get into the air from both ends.

Even more reason to provide sanitation as part of public health then.

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 krikoman 20 May 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Councils and Parks just need to accept that whether they or the locals like it or not they are open, and reinstate these services.  Perhaps tape the urinals off - while you wouldn't be 2m away from the user of the next cubicle, there's a wall in the way, and many of them have contactless handwashing facilities these days.

And who's  going to disinfect all the taps and door handles?

Do what you should do and stay away might be better than moaning about not being able to piss somewhere you shouldn't

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 marsbar 20 May 2020
In reply to daWalt:

Or maybe people should stay home and use their own toilets? 

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 marsbar 20 May 2020
 marsbar 20 May 2020
In reply to Trangia:

IBS may be a risk factor.  Perhaps she should ask someone to get her shopping for her.  

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 daWalt 20 May 2020
In reply to marsbar:

> Or maybe people should stay home and use their own toilets? 

We all know how that'll work out. Perhaps a dose of realpolitiK?

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In reply to

Whilst the parks are open, the businesses which support them are not. Without cash flow in to the area from visitors, I understand the reluctance to provide facilities. 

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In reply to Paul Sagar:

Thanks all for the info re symptoms, good to know. 

To all the people saying: “just stay at home and poo then!”

This reminds me of people in academic political theory who say “poverty would be eliminated if everyone gave away all their excess income and shared with the poor!” To which the answer is yes, true, but as we know they are not going to do that, in the real world what can we do to try and improve the situation given that people *won’t* do that, rather than saying they *should* do that and then simply moaning when they don’t and there is still poverty. 

whether you like it or not, people are going to travel to National Parks this weekend. For many of them, who live in big cities eg near the Peak, it is less than an hour’s drive. Some will get caught short (biology is like that). Simply saying “you should have done your poo at home!” is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. What you will get is poo...not in toilets. 

i entirely agree that there is then a hard choice about people having to clean the premises. The answer here is that public funds should be made available to ensure workers who do those jobs have the equipment they need to do it safely. And perhaps this reveals that despite all the rainbows and clapping, we don’t actually care as much about frontline workers as we sometimes like to think we do. 

At any rate, like so many coronavirus related issues, it’s complex and there is no easy answer one way or the other (sigh). But simply keeping toilets closed will cause problems, and saying “it doesn’t matter because people shouldn’t be using them anyway” is just moralising, it doesn’t help solve anything. 

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 Blue Straggler 20 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Did you ever use the public toilets in Hathersage before they were permanently closed? I’d rather puma pants! 

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In reply to krikoman:

> And who's  going to disinfect all the taps and door handles?

Here's a novel idea; why not wash your hands after using the toilet...?

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In reply to krikoman:

> And who's  going to disinfect all the taps and door handles?

Many public toilets have contact-free wash facilities these days.  It's probably prudent to carry your own sanitiser and use it before and after using the facility anyway, which reduces the risk to near-zero if the urinal is not in use and if you need to queue you do it outside 2m apart.

If you stick your hands in your face before you've washed your hands after use there's far more you might catch than COVID, anyway!

> Do what you should do and stay away might be better than moaning about not being able to piss somewhere you shouldn't

I have not been to the Peak since a month before lockdown started.  However, I do have a strong view that non-provision of public toilet facilities is discriminatory.  If the Government wishes to close the National Parks it is within its power to do so, but it (unlike Wales) has chosen not to do so.

Post edited at 10:51
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 marsbar 20 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

If the toilets are open then far more people will visit.  Shared facilities of any kind will spread the virus.  It is a no win situation.  

Anyone would have thought that central government made announcements without consulting local government first, or thinking through the consequences.  

The magic money tree is doing well, but it hasn’t reached the point where services such as public toilets, many of which have already closed due to lack of funding, can afford to pay for continuous cleaning to a suitable standard.  Vandalism has seen to it that ventilation is not available.  It isn’t right, but that is the situation.  We can talk all we want on here, but unless you speak to your MP and demand funding to open toilets with proper cleaning, nothing will happen.  

Personally I'm going to stay well away from the places which attract lots of people, and stay close to home.   Should I need to venture further I will make sure I have a suitable container to pack out any waste.  

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 marsbar 20 May 2020
In reply to TobyA:

I don’t think public toilets being open would have stopped that issue.  Some people are just disrespectful disgusting scrutters.  

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 deepsoup 20 May 2020
In reply to Trangia:

> Supermarkets used to be convenient, but not now because of the queues, you will wet yourself long before you reach the head of the queue. Jumping it just invites the wrath of shoppers!

The queue is for people waiting to go in and do their shopping - going directly to the head of the queue because you need the loo is not jumping the queue.  While there's a queue waiting there will also be a member of the supermarket staff standing out front marshalling the queue - talk to them, it won't be a problem, they'll be happy to help.

Anyone in the queue who gets the hump about that (less likely than you think probably) can do one.

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 deepsoup 20 May 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

> I were the actual individual charged with the cleaning and maintenance of these facilities without the provision of decent protection,  I might think twice about turning up to the 'office's.

I think people who clean toilets for a living are already aware of the possibility that the surfaces they're cleaning might have some nasty germs on them and can cope with that.  Their risk assessments already ruled out licking the door handles some time ago.  As long as they maintain 'social distancing', close the facilities and leave the place empty for a few minutes before they go in, what's the problem?

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 David Riley 20 May 2020

Waiting for a self check-out in Sainsbury's.  I watched the man in front pressing the screen and the payment buttons. When he had finished I used one finger to press the same buttons.  There was a cleaning trolley beside the check-out. So I looked for a bit of blue tissue to wipe my finger. An angry woman in Sainsbury uniform lunged towards me. What are you doing ?  "I wanted to wipe my finger".  She said the buttons I had pressed were all cleaned.

The same is true in toilet cleaning. The taps are no longer virus free after someone has used them.

Maybe just have a sign.  During the pandemic, cleaners are not working.  Please leave the toilets clean and wash your hands.

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 deepsoup 20 May 2020
In reply to David Riley:

You're replying to me, but I'm not sure which post or what your point is exactly.  So sorry if I've misunderstood you but a couple of comments..

> An angry woman in Sainsbury uniform lunged towards me.

Oh dear.  Sainsbury's definitely don't encourage their staff to lunge angrily, but I guess anyone can have a bad day.  Generally speaking they'll be trying to make sure the person marshalling the queue outside is more approachable than that, I'm pretty sure it'll be someone who doesn't want Trangia (or anyone else) to join the queue and suffer in silence if they're desperate for the loo.

Incidentally, if you're concerned that you've contaminated your finger (you should probably be more worried about the products you've just been putting in a bag than the self-checkout touch screen though really), you know wiping your finger on a bit of blue tissue isn't going to sort that out, right?

> The same is true in toilet cleaning. The taps are no longer virus free after someone has used them.

Indeed.  The taps in the supermarket toilets are no greater or less a threat, as far as covid is concerned, than the handles on the trolleys.  So why is it uniquely dangerous for toilet cleaners to clean toilets?

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In reply to marsbar:

Actually, your local MP has no power here. It’s the council’s job. MP’s indeed have basically no power at local level - that isn’t their job; that’s what local elected officials are for 

it’s a common misconception that MPs can sort stuff out. They can’t. Their role is to be lobby fodder at national decision making level. Many councils cynically and wilfully exploit lack of awareness of this fact to let MPs take the blame for what are council failings, FWIW. And MPs, to be fair, like to *pretend* they have local power as it makes them seem relevant, gets their name about and helps come election time. But it’s one way in which the British political system is rather dysfunctional and obscures to ordinary people what is really going on. 

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 Roadrunner6 20 May 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

We've done the same in a city of 200,000 people with a homeless problem. Absolutely stupid. 

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In reply to Paul Sagar:

My Mrs has bought a she-we and is practising in case she gets caught short when/if we go out for more than a quick visit to the countryside 😁

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 David Riley 20 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

Wow.

> You're replying to me,

I was not.

> Oh dear.  Sainsbury's definitely don't encourage their staff to lunge angrily, but I guess anyone can have a bad day.  Generally speaking they'll be trying to make sure the person marshalling the queue outside is more approachable than that, I'm pretty sure it'll be someone who doesn't want Trangia (or anyone else) to join the queue and suffer in silence if they're desperate for the loo.

I just related what happened.

> Incidentally, if you're concerned that you've contaminated your finger (you should probably be more worried about the products you've just been putting in a bag than the self-checkout touch screen though really), you know wiping your finger on a bit of blue tissue isn't going to sort that out, right?

It will help.  I was hoping to use the antiseptic cleaner too.  If it won't, then why are they wiping the buttons ?

> Indeed.  The taps in the supermarket toilets are no greater or less a threat, as far as covid is concerned, than the handles on the trolleys.  So why is it uniquely dangerous for toilet cleaners to clean toilets?

No idea where you are coming from here ?   It does not seem to refer to anything I said.

I was making the point that public toilets were not more unsafe if they were not being cleaned. Because it only made a difference if they were cleaned after every visitor.

Post edited at 15:40
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 David Riley 20 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

I completely agree with your post that preceded mine.   I gave it a like when you posted it.

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 Planeandsimple 20 May 2020
In reply to marsbar:

> Unfortunately diarrhoea is a symptom, and the virus can get into the air from both ends.  I can see why councils are keeping public toilets shut. 

Why so that the contaminated surfaces are then located wherever someone was caught short. Yes there is a risk there, but there is in your work toilet. So long as they are kept clean, it's not for councils to be responsible for people washing their hands and surely the cleaners should be wearing PPE sufficient as part of the existing risk assessment. I know I did when I used to clean toilets. 

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 marsbar 20 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Its  not decided by the local council how much money they get from central government.   

Austerity means local councils can't afford public toilets and cleaners.   

From 2018 Derbyshire Dales 

>The District Council isn’t obliged to provide public toilets.

>Successive central government grant cuts, including a further £637,000 reduction in 2018/19, have forced the council to review all the services it provides.

>....To help plug the gap of any permanent closures, a Community Toilet Scheme is being adopted by the District Council, where local businesses will be asked to allow members of the public to use their own loos 

Meanwhile according to Matlock Bath parish council the Pavilion toilets are closed due to being unable to secure funding to open them and the other toilets locally are closed due to government coronavirus guidance.

Whether this is correct or not, the issue is that central government are not working with local government and it shows.  

Post edited at 16:42
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 fred99 20 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> And who's  going to disinfect all the taps and door handles?

Shouldn't that be done as a normal procedure when cleaning public toilets ?

If it isn't done normally, then that is a recipe for "intestinal disorders" to become epidemic.

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 deepsoup 20 May 2020
In reply to David Riley:

Well, I did say I might not have understood what you were on about and pre-emptively apologised if we were talking at cross-purposes.  You were replying to me though, at least in the sense that it was on one of my posts that you hit the 'reply' button, and you seemed to be addressing what I had said.

> I just related what happened.

Yes, I wasn't disputing that.  I just wouldn't want your story to put anyone, Trangia for example, off approaching the person marshalling the queue rather than suffering in silence if they needed to get into the shop a bit more urgently than other people queueing outside.  Those guys are friendly and approachable and they're not going to assume you're just trying to pull a fast one.  Most people in the queue won't have a problem with that either, but anyone who does can just wind their neck in.

> It will help.  I was hoping to use the antiseptic cleaner too.  If it won't, then why are they wiping the buttons ?

Wiping your hands on a dry tissue will help?  Well ok then.  You're really not supposed to apply that disinfectant spray to your skin, so the staff in the shop probably don't want you doing that.  They actually have something of a legal duty of care to stop you doing that, and who knows, maybe she was even worried you were about to Trumpify yourself.

They're wiping the screens with it because that's what it's for, it's a disinfectant spray for cleaning and sanitising hard surfaces that come into contact with food.  They use the same stuff all over the shop on shelves, counters, you name it.  But not on people.

If you have the same problem again why don't you try asking the grumpy checkout person to give the screen a quick wipe before you use it?  Who knows, you might even get lucky and catch her in a good mood next time.

> No idea where you are coming from here ?

The incomprehension is mutual. 

Thanks for the 'like' btw, but I don't see them any more - turned them off.

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In reply to krikoman:

> Do what you should do and stay away

You've argued for this with great passion and determination in many threads. Can I ask what you personally will be using as an objective indicator that it's the appropriate time for you to resume climbing. I'm thinking of trad multi-pitch climbing with a non-household partner at a venue to which you can't simply walk. Are you pinning your hopes on a vaccine or will you only resume when the death/new case rate drops to a specific level? Would this have to be zero? Apologies if you've stated this elsewhere and I've missed it.

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 mrphilipoldham 20 May 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

They weren't permanently closed per se, they've been rebuilt and are reasonably pleasant.

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 Timmd 20 May 2020
In reply to TobyA:

> You really wonder about what happens in people's brains at times. 

It's the kind of thing where if you take the time to clear it up while wearing gloves you can end up feeling resentful at the person who left the mess. I used to want bog traps to be a thing in the nature reserves in Sheffield to capture anybody fly tipping in them up to their waists.

Edit: I still do...

Post edited at 17:44
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 krikoman 20 May 2020
In reply to Andy Clarke:

> You've argued for this with great passion and determination in many threads. Can I ask what you personally will be using as an objective indicator that it's the appropriate time for you to resume climbing. I'm thinking of trad multi-pitch climbing with a non-household partner at a venue to which you can't simply walk. Are you pinning your hopes on a vaccine or will you only resume when the death/new case rate drops to a specific level? Would this have to be zero? Apologies if you've stated this elsewhere and I've missed it.


I'm hoping for the rate to drop (though I can't see how this is going to happen soon), I'm also hoping for track and trace to be up and working, and proved to be working. I don't see how anyone can be safe climbing with people outside of their family / household.

I can't wait to get outside, but to climb I also need to drive, for at least 1 hour, so that would mean two separate journeys as I don't have someone else in the family.

But then how do you handle swapping gear over etc.

Sadly there's always the chance, however slim, of getting MRT involved, who need to travel separately also to help out if things go wrong.

And on top of all of that, people are running the chance of bringing CV-19 into any town you visit.

I'm not going to be a guinea pig for the government, as I don't see how we can come in late, do a worse job than Europe, then have any hope of coming out at the same time, with less restrictions, without killing more people. It simply doesn't make any sense.

There are traffic jams on most roads to Devon today!

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In reply to marsbar:

Sure, but your MP, alone can't single-handedly get the government to start giving councils the money they actually need. Because your local MP is powerless to get the government to do anything. Most MPs really can't do much at all, beyond sit on committees and try and either hold the government to account or help it write good legislation. But that's a big thing, and not a one-to-one relationship. Most MPs have shitty little jobs with little to no influence over much of anything. The most active and committed ones manage to do some stuff, often though sheer force of will and effective use of a platform, but many don't. (I worked for a good one about 10 years ago, in Parliament. But I was shocked to discover how much of what is going on in Westminster outside of Cabinet is a total waste of time.)

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 krikoman 20 May 2020
In reply to fred99:

> Shouldn't that be done as a normal procedure when cleaning public toilets ?

> If it isn't done normally, then that is a recipe for "intestinal disorders" to become epidemic.


I might be done once or twice a day normally, I'm pretty certain that's not enough to prevent the spread of this virus.

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 deepsoup 20 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> There are traffic jams on most roads to Devon today!

Woah, that's quite a claim.  Which of these cameras can I see that on then?

https://trafficcameras.uk/map/

Or are you basing that on that BBC news report about the 'gridlock' on beaches illustrated with this photo?  I've always avoided the SW in the summer because I thought it tended to be a bit overcrowded, have to say if I'd known this is what August bank-holiday gridlock looks like down there I wouldn't have bothered.

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 deepsoup 20 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> I'm pretty certain that's not enough to prevent the spread of this virus.

You don't do that by washing the taps and door handles, you do it by washing your hands.  Same way you protect yourself and others from the various forms of dreaded lergy that, unlike Covid, are more prevalent in the bogs than anywhere else.

Arguing that protecting people from this virus necessitates closing facilities that allow people to wash their hands is a bit hatstand even by your standards.

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 Blue Straggler 20 May 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Thanks for the correction. 

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 mrphilipoldham 20 May 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

No problem. They are indeed terrifying for a new reason now. Each individual cubicle opens straight on to the street.. there’s always the ‘is it definitely locked?’ pause as you go to pull down your keks!

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 deepsoup 20 May 2020
In reply to Timmd:

> I used to want bog traps to be a thing in the nature reserves in Sheffield to capture anybody fly tipping in them up to their waists.

Only up to their waists?  Leave them alive and trapped there for the midges to finish them off eh?  Harsh, but fair.

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 bruxist 20 May 2020
In reply to Trangia:

Crohn's patient who climbs here. I shit six times a day on average; up to twelve, but that would be a bad day.

I did a 19-day LDW last year with a shovel. I have more problems in town centres than elsewhere. Councils having their funds slashed by 60% has been a problem for the disabled for quite a while now, and it's nice to see people waking up to the fact; but I can't really get my head around fair-weather climbers demanding public toilets in isolated places.

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 Blue Straggler 20 May 2020
In reply to bruxist:

Nicely said. 

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 krikoman 21 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> Woah, that's quite a claim.  Which of these cameras can I see that on then?

Well if you can't see it, it mustn’t exist then.

And it wasn't that photo, but still it's a photo, so well done.

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In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Actually, your local MP has no power here. It’s the council’s job. MP’s indeed have basically no power at local level - that isn’t their job; that’s what local elected officials are for 

> it’s a common misconception that MPs can sort stuff out. They can’t. Their role is to be lobby fodder at national decision making level. Many councils cynically and wilfully exploit lack of awareness of this fact to let MPs take the blame for what are council failings, FWIW. And MPs, to be fair, like to *pretend* they have local power as it makes them seem relevant, gets their name about and helps come election time. But it’s one way in which the British political system is rather dysfunctional and obscures to ordinary people what is really going on. 

I'd argue that the reverse tends to be true, Councils taking the blame for national policy failures and of course a decade of the government having Councils controllable income cut in half. Of course in most places, public toilets were an early victim. On your first point, MPs can stamp their feet a lot harder than the public, even if depending on their political persuasion, they might like to ignore the cause of the problem.

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 Richard Horn 22 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

This was written about 2003 SARS: 

"The possibility of the coronavirus being transmitted through building sewage pipes immediately drew comparisons to the 2003 SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) coronavirus outbreak, where this was discovered to be a major source of transmission. At the Amoy Gardens housing estate, also in Hong Kong, more than 300 infections and 42 deaths occurred after poorly-designed plumbing allowed the SARS virus to spread throughout the building complex."

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In reply to Richard Horn:

Interesting - but presumably that's because the people lived in the building with inadequate plumbing? Surely there are likely to be big differences between one-off visits to a public loo which presumably has good plumbing?

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 krikoman 22 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> You don't do that by washing the taps and door handles, you do it by washing your hands. 

There's no issue with aerosols, and breathing it in?

Are you sure you can't catch it this way?

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In reply to krikoman:

Wear a mask while having a slash if you really must.

If it was that much of an issue we would be getting absolutely massive spread in supermarkets and we aren't doing.

Post edited at 19:12
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 krikoman 22 May 2020
 krikoman 22 May 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Wear a mask while having a slash if you really must.

Great idea, how many will.

I'm not bothered about myself, cos I'm not going! It's like you telling me to wear a mask on the beach! It's the people doing what the f*ck they like YOU need to worry about, and let's not forget you're more likely to bump into, someone who doesn't care at all about preventing virus spread, than you're every likely to at home. It isn't about what I'm doing it's about what others are doing.

We've had two days of rising death rates, any idea why that might be?

> If it was that much of an issue we would be getting absolutely massive spread in supermarkets and we aren't doing.


Supermarket usually have AHUs removing and replenishing air, public bogs less so.

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In reply to krikoman:

> We've had two days of rising death rates, any idea why that might be?

I understand it's because it's still running amok in care homes.

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In reply to krikoman:

Death rates are falling (ignoring the weekly bumps due to reporting delays)

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

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 bruxist 22 May 2020
In reply to MG:

FT and Uni Oxford have dropped Worldometers even as a secondary source over concerns about their quality of data: https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1263062229995474945

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In reply to bruxist:

Which numbers suggest an increasing death rate in the UK?

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 bruxist 22 May 2020
In reply to MG:

Why are you replying with a straw man, demanding that I supply evidence of an increase?

Worldometers figures are deprecated; FT, ONS, Oxford suggest a stable death rate (which is bad news - it means that the UK is sustaining a high ongoing death rate).

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In reply to bruxist:

Well if you agree they are falling, good.

Post edited at 21:54
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In reply to Paul Sagar:

Erm, death rates represent infections that began 2-3 weeks ago.

Lockdown eased just over 1 week ago,.

Whether they are going up or down, it isn't due to the easing of restrictions last Wednesday...

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 Offwidth 23 May 2020
In reply to bruxist:

I thought all sources show a falling official C19 death rate and a falling excess death rate, for the UK. The concern is that easing lockdown might reverse this.

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 deepsoup 23 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

Yes, that looks concerning.  (I've cut the facebook rubbish off the end of your link there btw.)  It's the sort of honeypot I'd be keen to avoid, certainly.

If you could stick to posting reasonably credible stuff as opposed to hysterical (and demonstrably false) nonsense like "There are traffic jams on most roads to Devon today!" you would probably be doing yourself a favour.

Edit to add:

The traffic cameras I linked to above are still showing a largely empty M5 and other major roads, so "numbers of visitors just like a normal summer bank holiday" this is not.  Here's a webcam showing the mayhem on Exmouth seafront in real time right now: https://www.exmouthcam.co.uk/webcam/
(I didn't cherry pick that, it was just the first one I found with a quick google.  It's surprisingly tricky to find webcams that are still working.)

Edit to add (again):

Oh, hang on..  Magic Seaweed is a good place to find webcams of beaches.  Here's another:
https://magicseaweed.com/Newquay-Fistral-South-Surf-Report/1361/

As we can add photos now, here's the view on that latest webcam as I'm writing this..

Post edited at 12:58
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 krikoman 23 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> Yes, that looks concerning.  (I've cut the facebook rubbish off the end of your link there btw.)  It's the sort of honeypot I'd be keen to avoid, certainly.

Yes, but!! Nice one.

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 bruxist 20:48 Sat
In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, even the FT - but not falling to the extent that it should have an impact on anyone's decision-making. ONS for the last week note their own figures are out, owing to the Bank Holiday and one day when the registration system was not working for 18 hours; FT have used a rolling 7-day average which helps, and shows the average declining from 390 to 340 over the last 7 days, which is still ten times the rate when lockdown was brought in. https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=gbr&areasRegional=usny&areasRegional=usnj&cumulative=0&logScale=1&perMillion=0&values=deaths

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 Offwidth 18:46 Wed
In reply to bruxist:

I agree with your main point it seems way too early for all these changes. We will have to wait a few weeks to see what happens. I am not optimistic.

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