Public emergency alerts to be sent to all UK mobile phones

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 sandrow 20 Mar 2023

"A siren-like alert will be sent to smartphone users across the UK next month to test a new government public warning system.

It allows the government and emergency services to send urgent messages warning the public of life-threatening situations like flooding or wildfires.

The test is expected to take place in the early evening of 23 April.

Phone users will have to acknowledge the alert before they can use other features on their devices"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64999417

Having been involved in getting customers to understand something is going to happen on their devices and they don’t need to worry I can confidently predict:

  • It will be a surprise to 100%
  • 80% will sh*t themselves
  • 20% will ignore
  • 62% will think it’s Bill Gates taking control of their devices and reading all their socials
  • 10% will arm themselves and take to the streets (in US this would be 82%)
  • 0% of police will know anything about this - (100% will keep eating chips/doughnuts whilst the alarm goes off)
 Dax H 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

I heard about this yesterday. It will be interesting to see if my phone makes a noise because its locked down to make zero noises or give zero notifications for everything except phone calls. 

 annieman 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

DON'T PANIC MR MAINWARING!

 wintertree 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

> 80% will sh*t themselves

Not if we send an advanced alert to warn about the test alert!

Surprising that it doesn’t work on 3G.  

To be honest, if the missiles start flying I’d rather go out in blissful ignorance.

 David Bowler 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

Already turned it off on all my phones. I don't want to be woken at 2am for the monthly "BEAST FROM THE EAST" warning.

 montyjohn 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

I think it's a brilliant idea. Provided it really only is used for true emergencies and the occasional test 

9
 Jimbo C 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

"Messages would only ever come from the government or emergency services and will initially focus on the most serious weather-related events"

So we'll all receive a dramatic warning when we can expect a dusting of snow or some breezy weather *rolls eyes*

No mention of what version of Andorid / Ios , etc. it will work with. I'll wait and see if my phone does anything. Thanks for the heads up though.

 Ciro 20 Mar 2023
In reply to David Bowler:

How do you turn it off? The gov website seems to suggest it will happen regardless of notification settings.

 Neil Williams 20 Mar 2023
In reply to David Bowler:

I do think it should respect vibrate/mute settings, and ideally not use such a horrible tone.

 Luke90 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Ciro:

Devices that are capable of receiving the emergency alerts should have a specific setting for enabling/disabling them. It's probably turned on by default, mine certainly was.

Recent versions of Android have a search box at the top of the settings menu where searching for 'Emergency Alerts' will lead you to it. In my phone, it's under a settings category called 'Safety and emergency', but that could vary.

If they genuinely restrict them to hardly ever being used, I'll probably leave them enabled. Though most of the kind of events I think would justify a solution like this don't really happen in the UK (hurricane/tornado, mass shooter on the loose).

As others have said, they'll be disabled the first time they use one to warn that it might be a bit warm/cold/breezy/damp tomorrow. Though it's interesting that there are two different levels of alert which can be disabled independently. So hopefully if they start using them for weather forecasting, I can disable the lower level but still get warned if a nearby nuclear power plant is melting down.


 Dave the Rave 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Ciro:

Go to settings notifications, scroll down and toggle off emergency alerts if you have I phone.

Mines done.

The BBC article above tells you that you can do this.

Its a real invasion of privacy.

14
 ExiledScot 20 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

> I think it's a brilliant idea. Provided it really only is used for true emergencies and the occasional test 

It could save lives if used promptly and doesn’t need umpteen different heads of departments to give permission first. Mass shooter, knife attack om streets, chemicals & smoke from fire, dam bursting etc..

I always wondered when the Whitehaven shooter was roaming why they didn't run the Sellafield warning siren and get everyone indoors quick, then follow it up with radio announcements to calm everyone!! 

4
 CantClimbTom 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I do think it should respect vibrate/mute settings, and ideally not use such a horrible tone.

It is designed to ignore them. You can always disable this on your phone if you expect it will cause distress. But then you'll miss out that there is an "Arctic Weather-Bomb" or somesuch

Post edited at 14:20
 Jenny C 20 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

Agreed, in theory the government being able to communicate urgent life threatening messages to the public via phone is a great idea.

Infact didn't we get something similar by text notifying of covid restrictions? Although these came via normal text message, so I guess we're issued by phone providers.

My concern is not at the concept, but the reason for introducing it now. Genuinely extreme (life threatening) weather events makes sense but aren't something the UK generally suffers from, I'm more worried that it's a precaution incase things escalate with Russia and they need fast way to notify/warm the public.

It's not something I'll deactivate, at least not initially until I see how well targeted any warning are.

2
 kestrelspl 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Jenny C:

These alerts are pretty standard in other places. I've received many while in Japan for work and they've always been for stuff that I would really like to know about (Tsunami, Typhoon, Earthquake, Flooding). Have also received tornado ones in the states which again were really good to know about.

I believe on the timing, it was finding out early on in Covid that they couldn't send us all a message that prompted the development of this. The covid message was sent by asking all the individual mobile phone companies to send one to their customers and even then it was just a standard text not something a lot of people would notice.

In terms of intrusiveness, in Japan most TVs also come on automatically when this type of alert goes out.

 plyometrics 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

Don’t object to the principle of this, but suspect the ar$ehole scammers are already planning their next ruse…

EMERGENCY ALERT: THIS IS A MESSAGE FROM THE UK GOVERNMENT, DO NOT IGNORE. THERE ARE REPORTS OF AN ACTIVE SHOOTER IN YOUR AREA, PLEASE STAY INDOORS AND CLICK HERE TO CONFIRM YOU ARE IN A SECURE LOCATION

Post edited at 14:36
 montyjohn 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Jenny C:

> I'm more worried that it's a precaution incase things escalate with Russia and they need fast way to notify/warm the public. 

I expect this is exactly why it's being introduced now.

> It's not something I'll deactivate, at least not initially until I see how well targeted any warning are. 

Same. It will be such a waste if we end up being spammed with nonsense alerts. After the test, I hope never to hear anything from it again.

1
In reply to Jenny C:

> Genuinely extreme (life threatening) weather events makes sense but aren't something the UK generally suffers from

And don't happen without warning.

Like wintertree, if things escalate with Russia, I'm not sure I want advance warning to rush to the supermarket to kill people for a supply of bog paper.

Emergency warnings of this nature seem to be a US thing, and feature in my ancient Moto E2 phone. Maybe due to the US 'duck and cover' nuclear warnings, and extreme weather warnings (hurricane, tornado) that are more of a real concern there.

My phone is normally in airplane mode, so I don't expect to receive anything.

I'm sure this system was trialled last year some time.

Anyone reminded of 'Kingsman'...?

Post edited at 15:02
 Billhook 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

Its bad enough being warned about 1" of snow expected in the Outer Hebrides when you live on the Scilly Isles, or  in London.   Or Yorkshire where we get bad weather and expect it.

 Philip 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

On a recent trip to Texas, colleagues were getting multiple messages a day of this kind each day about missing children.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

> It is designed to ignore them.

When in my car it is the car settings that override all my phone settings on notifications. My phone has notifications enabled, but I’ve never had any notifications when in the car for well over three years now so would certainly surprise me if a 10 sec siren goes off!

Wonder if the alert is capable of overriding the car system to force the siren ring either direct on phone or through the car speakers. Might have to be in the car to find out if they publish a reasonably accurate time for the trial!

 Neil Williams 20 Mar 2023
In reply to CantClimbTom:

> It is designed to ignore them. You can always disable this on your phone if you expect it will cause distress. But then you'll miss out that there is an "Arctic Weather-Bomb" or somesuch

I don't want to be woken up at 3am to be told about a couple of inches of snow.

Nuclear war or an imminent evacuation yes, but not weather.  Totally discredits the idea.

If they start sending rubbish like that I'm going to turn it off entirely (and if they prevent that, power down my phone overnight).

Post edited at 15:40
 Luke90 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> Its a real invasion of privacy.

How so? The protocol seems to have been designed with privacy very much in mind. There's apparently no data transfer up to the government or the providers, just an outgoing broadcast. It's potentially intrusive or annoying, especially if they broaden or stray from their 'imminent risk to life' criteria, but I don't see any loss of privacy at all.

1
 Luke90 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Neil Williams:

> If they start sending rubbish like that I'm going to turn it off entirely (and if they prevent that, power down my phone overnight).

I don't think there's any mechanism for the government to prevent you turning it off. They could maybe push the phone manufacturers to change the way it works but I doubt they'd comply.

 Bulls Crack 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

I'd like an alert every time a route I've done gets upgraded 

 Neil Williams 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Luke90:

"Imminent risk to life where inaction could be deadly" is probably a better criterion.  Which excludes almost all UK weather.

If I want a weather forecast I'm quite capable of getting one.

 elsewhere 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

BALLISTIC MISSILE THREAT INBOUND TO HAWAII. SEEK IMMEDIATE SHELTER. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.

That was the text of a message in 2018. Thankfully a false alarm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Hawaii_false_missile_alert

 Luke90 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Neil Williams:

> "Imminent risk to life where inaction could be deadly" is probably a better criterion.  Which excludes almost all UK weather.

> If I want a weather forecast I'm quite capable of getting one.

Completely agree that it'll be annoying as hell if they start including things akin to the yellow/amber weather warnings. And definitely concerned that they might.

But it's difficult to come up with a concise definition for where the line should be drawn that isn't still a bit fuzzy and reliant on common sense. The kinds of weather events they issue weather warnings for do occasionally kill people. I don't think that justifies using this new (to the UK) mechanism, but by any reasonable definition you could make an argument for it clearing the bar.

Ultimately, we'll just have to hope that they realise it's more effective overall to send out very few alerts and have people actually notice and pay attention than to bombard us and have them mostly disabled by the time something truly critical comes along. Can't say I'm super optimistic on that score but I'll give them a chance.

 wintertree 20 Mar 2023
In reply to thread:

Amid assurances that only the government can trigger these warnings, it's worth baring in mind that sometimes systems can be hacked...

... most recently by evil voice calls that hack the baseband processor as they pass through it.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/03/critical-vulnerabili...

 jonfun21 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:
 

Plenty of messages the government will need to send out/could have made use of:

WARNING we are about to enact a law that breaks international law, in case you (unlike us) have a moral compass please find the nearest barrister 

ALERT despite being under lockdown rules we are about to have a party at 10 Downing Street, drinks provided but please can everyone bring a small plate of party food 

SCAM ALERT be aware there are various tax evasion schemes being used by government ministers at this time, if anyone contacts you about joining these please ignore them, these schemes are not for the likes of you 

etc etc 

1
 Alkis 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

Just so you're aware, the conspiracy theorists have already got hold of this one and are claiming the government will use it to detect which numbers are active, which is one of the most moronic things I've ever heard.

 Moacs 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Dax H:

> I heard about this yesterday. It will be interesting to see if my phone makes a noise because its locked down to make zero noises or give zero notifications for everything except phone calls. 

I'm in the trial (interestingly I didn't volunteer for this!) - no, it rings (if a siren noise is a ring) anyway

 elsewhere 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Philip:

> On a recent trip to Texas, colleagues were getting multiple messages a day of this kind each day about missing children.

I have a whole list of alert types I can cancel including orange alerts for missing children, but I can't cancel a "Presidential Alert". It seems my UK bought phone thinks it's American.

 Dave the Rave 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Luke90:

> How so? The protocol seems to have been designed with privacy very much in mind. There's apparently no data transfer up to the government or the providers, just an outgoing broadcast. It's potentially intrusive or annoying, especially if they broaden or stray from their 'imminent risk to life' criteria, but I don't see any loss of privacy at all.

Hi Luke

I term my phone ringing as a loss of privacy as I don’t want contacting. I will add intrusive and annoying to this.

I can just see it now, siren goes off and lots of people running around screaming like headless chickens. What do people do when given a warning and told not to panic? 

3
 MG 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave the Rave:

Just turn the alerts off then and you won't be bothered.

1
 Ridge 20 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> I always wondered when the Whitehaven shooter was roaming why they didn't run the Sellafield warning siren and get everyone indoors quick, then follow it up with radio announcements to calm everyone!! 

The siren is only designed to warn the workforce to shelter, it's just about audible outside the perimeter fence, depending on wind direction. It's telephone, text and email alerts for those within (IIRC) 10km of the site.

The shootings took place over a much wider area. It was exactly the situation where the Public Emergency Alert would have been useful, (assuming everyone hadn't disabled it, which seems to be the general UKC consensus).

 Kalna_kaza 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

They have a simple text based system in Latvia which is tested every year. It used to start like: "THIS IS A TEST. HOSTILE FORCES ACTIVE IN LATVIA. NBS (Latvian armed forces) ARE RESPONDING..."

Unfortunately one year someone put: "THIS IS NOT A TEST..." ...with obvious results.

So anyways, now it doesn't include specifics in the test messages.

 Dave the Rave 20 Mar 2023
In reply to MG:

> Just turn the alerts off then and you won't be bothered.

I have, hours ago.

 Dave the Rave 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Ridge:

> The shootings took place over a much wider area. It was exactly the situation where the Public Emergency Alert would have been useful, (assuming everyone hadn't disabled it, which seems to be the general UKC consensus).

Hi Ridge

I agree that may have been useful for that situation. Fortunately, that doesn’t happen too often here.

I don’t know whether it’s just me, but since all of the covid warnings and none compliance by government staff to the same rules,  I think that the government likes the idea of a worried, controlled population?

 Umfana 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

I experienced a test of the same thing in Germany two weeks ago.

I can confirm all of your predictions.

 Ridge 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> I don’t know whether it’s just me, but since all of the covid warnings and none compliance by government staff to the same rules,  I think that the government likes the idea of a worried, controlled population?

The cynic in me thinks you're probably right.

 MG 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave the Rave:

The sweet spot of messages I'd want is rather small. Total destruction - would rather not know and anyway what could I do. Less than house blowing down - I'll read the news/weather etc and know anyway. I've turned mine off too.

 DaveR 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

We get these in New Zealand. Was a little bit if a surprise first time, because my phone that's normally on silent was suddenly very loud. But it's really nothing to worry about. 

 broken spectre 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

Unnecessarily alarmist and morose!

Give me a colourful graphic, a catchy tune and the message "Respawning in 3, 2, 1..." any day of the apocalypse 

 Clwyd Chris 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Philip:

> On a recent trip to Texas, colleagues were getting multiple messages a day of this kind each day about missing children.

Yes, I was woke up in Houston by my phone making a incredibly loud screeching noise  at 4 in the morning, scared the living daylights out of me, was a txt  about heavy rain, quickly learnt how to switch the alerts off !  

 wintertree 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> I don’t know whether it’s just me, but since all of the covid warnings and none compliance by government staff to the same rules,  I think that the government likes the idea of a worried, controlled population?

The UK is far behind some other countries, for example the USA, in terms of emergency broadcast systems.  The cynic in me thinks it’s because governments have known our densely populated county never stood a chance once the missiles left the silos.  

In my view, a well curated warning / broadcast system is a net benefit.  There’s a village not so far from me that still uses WW2 style air raid sirens because it’s prone to short notice catastrophic flooding (Boscastle style).  The thing is though, other than such rare exceptions of geography, locations in the UK are immune to almost all causes of such immediate threat other than terrorism or an all out nuclear exchange.  

Ultimately, it’s all about giving people a choice to make more informed decisions.  Getting everyone to make a decision to engage or disengage is going to be a one-time pain point, then it becomes part of the zeitgeist.

I’ll leave my warning on, but if it starts to be used during sleep hours for anything less than a missile launch or active shooter alert I’ll silence it.  Red weather warnings occur far enough in advance they don’t need to go out in sleep hours.
 

Post edited at 22:53
 riddle 20 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

We have it here in Quebec, I can confirm your first three points, every damn time.
 It's mostly used for missing/kidnapped children, although we had hurricane warning, a nuclear disaster test, gunman at large.
 

The system has proved useful, more so for missing children.  It's a nuisance at 3am.

 Neil Williams 20 Mar 2023
In reply to wintertree:

> The UK is far behind some other countries, for example the USA, in terms of emergency broadcast systems.  The cynic in me thinks it’s because governments have known our densely populated county never stood a chance once the missiles left the silos.

A nuclear attack warning has very limited benefit in any country to be honest.

On the other hand, the US has quite a lot of severe weather that will result in deaths if not acted on very quickly - hurricanes, tornadoes etc.  That seems an ideal use case for it.

I guess in the UK actually useful ones might be people below a dam or near a nuclear power station if there was a serious incident (like the one at the Whaley Bridge dam a few years back), or I've heard it suggested it might have saved a few lives at Grenfell Tower when they changed "stay put" to "get out" but had no way to tell people about it.  But yeah, if I get a red weather warning at 4am then it's going straight off for good.  Hopefully they'll have the sense not to render it useless by doing that, but it is the Goverment we're talking about.  It'd not even have been of much use for COVID, as generally there were fixed times of the week when advice was updated, not at random.

Talking of sleep hours, though, shift workers won't like it if they start shoving red weather warnings out on it.  I don't turn my phone off at night, just silence it, partly because I would want to hear a call at 3am about a family member being seriously ill for instance and you can exempt specific numbers.  But if I was a shift worker and this is used often it'd be a case of turn it off or turn my phone off, neither being ideal.  I'm all for it being used for "you must act now or you might die" stuff, but if I want to know the weather I'm  perfectly capable of looking it up, and if it's a "don't travel" type one I look at my phone first thing anyway, I have no need to know it while asleep.

Post edited at 23:09
 Neil Williams 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Moacs:

> I'm in the trial (interestingly I didn't volunteer for this!) - no, it rings (if a siren noise is a ring) anyway

It's a really weird noise.  I guess the US (who used it first) designed it for maximum annoyance - a very flat sound you feel compelled to respond to.

In reply to elsewhere:

> but I can't cancel a "Presidential Alert".

Is that the one that tells you to storm Congress...?

 Neil Williams 20 Mar 2023
In reply to riddle:

> We have it here in Quebec, I can confirm your first three points, every damn time.

>  It's mostly used for missing/kidnapped children, although we had hurricane warning, a nuclear disaster test, gunman at large.

> The system has proved useful, more so for missing children.  It's a nuisance at 3am.

Sending missing children alerts to people whose children it isn't at 3am strikes me as an unacceptable use.

There could do with being two levels of it in terms of how the phone responds.  One "you're going to die" level with the noise and such, and another that just appears like a text message and complies with mute, vibrate etc.  The missing child alert should be the latter.

There are two levels of it, at least in terms of being able to disable it, but I think both use the same noise etc.

 wintertree 20 Mar 2023
In reply to Neil Williams:

> On the other hand, the US has quite a lot of severe weather that will result in deaths if not acted on very quickly - hurricanes, tornadoes etc. 

Not just severe weather, parts of the US are much more geologically active than here, and have dams that aren’t expected to survive if a big ‘quake hits.  I’ve staid in parts of the USA with road sings posting both hurricane evacuation routes and earthquake dam failure evacuation routes.  

You mentioned Whaley Bridge and I agree an EBS would have had value there, but it’s also worth nothing that was an event 100% due to failure to meet statutory duties rather than an accepted risk of natural phenomenon.

> A nuclear attack warning has very limited benefit in any country to be honest.

I agree, and as I previously said I’d rather go out in blissful ignorance, but I don’t have a problem with given people the option to be informed.   

 Wainers44 21 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

Plymouth has the "look out we've done something silly with all this nuclear stuff" siren in the Dockyard.  They test it every week.  It went off accidentally recently at a non test time.  Very small number of people sh@ themselves, vast majority ignored it.

Crazy really though  as those close enough to hear it are too close to get away in a real situation anyway. 

 girlymonkey 21 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

Thanks for the heads up. I have turned it off and sent information to my mother in law so that she can turn it off for 91 year old granny. She certainly doesn't need a fright like this! 

 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Ridge:

Ah ok, I didn't think the Sellafield siren was so quiet (relatively) and yeah that guy I believe finished up near Boot.

Blocking the warning, there is an odd obsession that many people are against anything the government does that intrudes into their life, even if it might benefit them! Something about rights, freedoms, privacy.... usually follows in the justification. But yeah there are plenty examples of where a go indoors immediately, anywhere, into anyone else's house home or business would save lives. Think WW2 people just dived into the nearest bomb shelter no messing about. 

There are secondary benefits in getting people off the streets so the emergency services can deal with the incident quicker and easier. 

Post edited at 07:43
 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Neil Williams:

> There could do with being two levels of it in terms of how the phone responds.  One "you're going to die" level with the noise and such, and another that just appears like a text message and complies with mute, vibrate etc.  The missing child alert should be the latter.

There has to be only 1 level, act now could save your life, it's not something to ignore. If you receive it you are in the catchment where it matters. Anything less devalues it. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

In theory, I guess this system could be useful. I am struggling to see the efficacy in the UK though. This isn't WW2, we don't have bomb shelters in our gardens and the vast majority of the population have no meaningful measure to protect themselves from a nuclear exchange - an Anderson shelter isn't really going to cut it if you're near to a 300 kiloton thermonuclear device detonating. We have no civil defence infrastructure and most of us live in densely populated areas that are likely to be a secondary target for strategic missiles anyway. The odd instance of disastrous events (watch out - extremists about) is hardly going to be useful, I mean, by the time you get the alert the bomb/ knife attack has already happened. The rest does not require this system to be used (watch out - snow! etc.) 

From my perspective we're left with two probabilities: 1, this shower in charge of the country are relying on fear of external enemies (stop the boats! watch out for Putin!) to distract from their utter incompetence and venal corruption; or 2. we're doomed anyway, in which case an annoying sound on my phone is probably the last thing I need to hear. I've turned it off.

3
 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

I'm thinking more gun or knife attack, get off the streets now. Indoors anywhere, don't try to go home etc.. 

 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

I'd separate Putins threats and this message system, coincidence, not one justifying the other. However, shielding and distance are basic methods of lessening impact on the body, if you were outside the immediate blast area you chances of survival increase vastly if you can avoid the initial blast waves and radiation, just like those 70s films by being under the stairs etc.. 

However I'd say the chances of a mass knife or gun attack in a city in the next decade are 100%, that's a known problem whose impact can be reduced. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Fair enough. I guess in that case it could be useful, although as others have pointed out I would therefore expect this to be used extremely sparingly - can anyone give me an example of where this would actually have been used recently? And how it would have been actually useful? 

 neilh 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

So what is so different about the Uk as compared with other countries which use this type of system as an alert. Is there anything about us which is unique...I am intrigued to know...pray tell....

Using modern technology in this way is just well sensible. You can easily ignore it if you want.

Alternatively go back to the middle ages if you want.

 deepsoup 21 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> However I'd say the chances of a mass knife or gun attack in a city in the next decade are 100%, that's a known problem whose impact can be reduced. 

I have a hard time imagining a system quick and responsive enough to react in time to be useful in that case not also regularly throwing up false alarms.

On the flip side, with systems in place to ensure there are no false alarms, I can't imagine a real alarm being triggered early enough not to drop people in the immediate vicinity right in it. 

The advice is generally to run and hide, so there you are hiding under the counter in TK Maxx while the American-style gun toting mass murderer is stalking the place and just when you're thinking you might get away with it the police control room have finally got their positive, definite confirmation that it's really happening and your phone goes off with a full volume "WeeOoooWeeOoooWeeOooo!"

 girlymonkey 21 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

For me, I just don't like my phone to shout at me! I choose to have it on silent a lot of the time, I get very annoyed at people whom I don't know calling me. I even prefer people I do know to text/ Whatsapp/ email etc. I find a noisy phone to be intrusive. A warning text message is fine, but not a noisy, shouty siren!

In reply to neilh:

My problem with the system is outlined nicely by deepsoup above. In the event of a knife/ gun attack the situation is developing in a matter of seconds and minutes. What protocol is in place to issue an alert on that timescale? Who gets to decide who is alerted? I am very sceptical the system can work to inform people in a local area of a roving knife attacker to make any difference. On a grander scale, if you live in a city centre and nuclear missiles are en route there is next to nothing you can do anyway in my opinion. I think if you’re imagining ‘duck and cover’ you’re living in fantasy land. As for other countries with a more displaced population or civil defence system: it probably makes more sense. What exactly are you expecting an untrained and unprepared UK population to do when issued an alert exactly?

 mrphilipoldham 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Luke90:

Be a DV victim with a hidden secret phone and say there’s no invasion of privacy when it starts blaring out from your sock drawer.

2
 neilh 21 Mar 2023
In reply to girlymonkey:

One of the fundamental issues with alarms..is that people tend to ignore them as they refuse to believe its true...meanwhile easily avoidable disaster or emergency is heading their way....

In reply to neilh:

Example?

 neilh 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

I think you are looking for excuses.The Uk operates for example a very successful flood alert scheme brough into place as a result of recent event. But you have to be signed up for it.

And the cry from people like you in the event of something like this which affects you is " why did you not have an alert system in place".

As  I say plenty of other countries do it...if you want to bury your hand in the sand over modern practises...then carry on.

In reply to neilh:

Excuses for what? Not having an alarm on my phone? I think scrutinising the actions of government is essential. What is the intended outcome of this system and how does it work in practice seem to do pretty basic questions that don’t seem to be answered. I’m more than happy if I’m being too cynical and this is going to be useful but genuinely can’t see the point. I’d also be interested to know why now and when the decision was made to implement this system. All reasonable questions I think, not excuses. 

 deepsoup 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

> On a grander scale, if you live in a city centre and nuclear missiles are en route there is next to nothing you can do anyway in my opinion. I think if you’re imagining ‘duck and cover’ you’re living in fantasy land.

If you live in a city centre you'd have heard the sirens of the "four minute warning", had it happened, before we all had mobile phones back in the day.  It was 'Protect and Survive' not 'duck and cover' but amounted to the same thing - I don't think anyone much really intended to try.  (Especially not after they'd seen 'Threads' and 'When The Wind Blows'.) 

But 4 minutes is enough to hug someone you love if you're lucky, or find a nice quiet corner to hunker down and kiss your arse goodbye.

 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> I have a hard time imagining a system quick and responsive enough to react in time to be useful in that case not also regularly throwing up false alarms.

If the remit is small, the guidelines clear etc.. then it could be activated in a timely manner.

Yeah, it might prove too complex, too slow, but that's not a reason to at least not try it, maybe test and improve the process, or dismiss it later based on evidence, not speculation. 

 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> The advice is generally to run and hide, so there you are hiding under the counter in TK Maxx while the American-style gun toting mass murderer is stalking the place and just when you're thinking you might get away with it the police control room have finally got their positive, definite confirmation that it's really happening and your phone goes off with a full volume "WeeOoooWeeOoooWeeOooo!"

The usa "run hide fight"... I think at the hide stage turning phones to silent is sadly considered routine. 

 deepsoup 21 Mar 2023
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Be a DV victim with a hidden secret phone and say there’s no invasion of privacy when it starts blaring out from your sock drawer.

That's a very good point.

 montyjohn 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

> we don't have bomb shelters in our gardens and the vast majority of the population have no meaningful measure to protect themselves from a nuclear exchange

This isn't true.

Many people will die following a nuclear attack due to radiative fallout.

There are simple things you can do in the 30 minutes you have after a bomb lands that could save your life.

This one isn't recommended, but I would consider getting out of there in a car, if you believe the roads are clear and they are high speed roads to get you away quickly, I would take it. Since most cases will be in or near major cities this won't be an option and you don't want to be stuck in a car when there's fallout. Dead!

For most, the best thing you can do is fill the bath will of water, so you have drinking water. Tape up all the draughts to avoid radioactive dust entering the house. Leave a few draughts un-taped, but use a towel or similar so you at least have a tiny bit of filtered airflow. My vacuum has HEPA filters, so taping one of those over an opening would be a good idea.

Ration your food and stay put for a few weeks. Longer the better.

Keep curtains closed, and stay away from possible draughts as best you can.

Hopefully radiation levels are safe by the time you've burnt through all your food.

All the important decisions need to happen immediately. A 5 minute head start could make all the difference.

 deepsoup 21 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> If the remit is small, the guidelines clear etc.. then it could be activated in a timely manner.

Maybe so.  I think it's just a fundamental rule though - there's always going to be a trade-off between sensitivity to a real alarm and susceptibility to a false alarm.  There's no way to avoid a compromise somewhere because you simply can't have one without the other.

> The usa "run hide fight"... I think at the hide stage turning phones to silent is sadly considered routine. 

Here too.  (The silent bit, not the 'fight' bit which is just part of the USA's ludicrous 'good guy with a gun' fantasies.) 

But unless I'm misunderstanding, turning your phone to silent will not silence one of these alarms.  You have to delve deep into the setup menu to find the option to turn them off separately, or they're going off at full volume regardless.

 mrphilipoldham 21 Mar 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

Plenty more where that came from. Surprised not a single one has been mentioned on here prior. 

 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

Silence, I'll have to explore that, obviously airplane mode is counter productive. 

 neilh 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

Yet most other countries in the Western world just get on with it.....are they really any different to us...or are we unique? An excuse on your part thinking we are better, typically inward looking.

2
 Ian W 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

> Example?

Storm Arwen. It would have been v. useful to get a local warning of extreme weather, even if it is just to tell you to go get a local weather report, as there may be danger to life / property. We got it much worse in the north east than most other areas.

My concern with all this is which phones will receive the warning sirens. If they are going to target them to local areas, then fine, but if my phone is going to receive an amber warning travel difficulties, will it be to my phone location, or the location the phone is registered to? And where is the threshold before sending out a warning. It wont take many "false alarms" or what are deemed irrelevant before so many people block them the whole system becomes devalued.

Like many people, i have the phone on silent overnight except for direct family members numbers; it wont take many non life and death emergency 3am alarms for the system to fall down. The rationale for the alarm system hasnt been well, or widely, explained. I didnt know of its existence until i read this thread, and i'm keen on surrent affairs / politics etc.

 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to neilh:

> Yet most other countries in the Western world just get on with it.....are they really any different to us...or are we unique? An excuse on your part thinking we are better, typically inward looking.

It's the same with so many things, EVs and their infrastructure, power generation, building standards, 4g 5g fibre, trains, recycling, heat pumps, money back on drinks cans etc.... despite multiple examples of things working elsewhere, as a country we just diss anything that might change how we live, even if long term it's an improvement. I don't know if it's some defensive pyschi or people genuinely think the 1950s were the pinnacle of the uk. 

 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Ian W:

The tech exists you could target any phone currently hand shaking with a given mast. It requires a little geeky work, but more than feasible. 

Edit, weather wise if people have ignored the previous 48hrs of wind, snow, rain, flood warnings then tough. Darwin at work.

Post edited at 09:51
 Ian W 21 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> The tech exists you could target any phone currently hand shaking with a given mast. It requires a little geeky work, but more than feasible. 

Thats good to know (and thinking about it, obvious really, but mobile phone tech isnt at the top of my competency list.......).

> Edit, weather wise if people have ignored the previous 48hrs of wind, snow, rain, flood warnings then tough. Darwin at work.

I'd agree generally, but for the NE coast, Arwen was the most destructive in living memory; Northumberland lost over 2,000 hectares of forest cover, and is an area where strong winds arent exactly unknown. But if its going to be used to warn me that it might get a bit wet, or windy, or cold, given that I live in a part of the world where wind, rain / snow and cold temps are very common, I'm going to get quickly bored of it. Example - this winter we've had a few snowy days, some windy days and temps hit -8 to -10 a couple of times. None of this warrants anything other than Carol Kirkwood issuing a weather warning at the end of the news programme.

In reply to ExiledScot:

I’m not anti technology. I’m all for progressiveness. This just seems like a load of old codswallop to me that will either be misused or not effective. 

 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Ian W:

Any text warning system has to be for only immediate risk to life that couldn't be predict. Either catastrophic accident, or rampaging person/s, that couldn't be in any way forewarned. 

Otherwise it'll be like those community whatsapp groups which generally finish up being dreadful (I'm led to believe).

 Trippin Mark 21 Mar 2023
In reply to sandrow:

Sounds alright, its only a warning mr sandrow

 Ridge 21 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> The tech exists you could target any phone currently hand shaking with a given mast. It requires a little geeky work, but more than feasible. 

Cell broadcasting is already good to go. In fact I think this scheme is exactly that.

I don't see what the fuss is about TBH. You can turn it off in the Settings. I'll see how it goes and disable it if it's a PITA.

In reply to neilh:

You’re very quick to start throwing slurs around. “People like you” “typically inward looking” - mate, you don’t know me or anything about me, so if you could avoid suggesting what I’m like that would be great. You still haven’t actually answered my general questions, perhaps if you could provide an example of how they’re used in other countries that would maybe be more effective than trying to suggest I’m some little England conspiracy theorist. You say the flood warning system is useful: I lived in an area prone to flooding for 30 years and we managed, never received an alert but it was pretty easy to check the river level etc. I would just like the rationale for this explained properly, it’s all very well alerting people but when/ why and for what purpose?!!

In reply to Ridge:

100% agree with this take. 

 fred99 21 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> I'm thinking more gun or knife attack, get off the streets now. Indoors anywhere, don't try to go home etc.. 

Judging by normal standards, by the time any such warning were to go out, the Police should have dealt with the matter.

As a second point, I presume they would have to limit any such warning to a small number of masts, otherwise someone in Inverness could end up with a warning of firearms incident that's happening in Stepney.

Of course, my phone is switched off most of the time due to it being an "emergency" phone in case of breakdowns or such like - does this mean I could get such warning the next time I actually switch it on ?

 Neil Williams 21 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> There has to be only 1 level, act now could save your life, it's not something to ignore. If you receive it you are in the catchment where it matters. Anything less devalues it. 

It does have two levels - severe and extreme - you can disable them individually in your phone's notification settings (on iOS they're at the bottom of the notification configuration, on Android I think a separate area).  But I think both give the same warning.  It'd make more sense to keep that warning for stuff like nuclear plant emergency, chemical leak, terrorist action etc, and to just pop up a message like an SMS for lesser stuff that's still worth warning about like "advice against travel" due to severe weather, water outages, power outages etc.

I do think the overrides to mute etc should only be used for immediate danger to life/property if action is not taken, but I fear it will be used more widely than this.

An interesting aside on it...the tone is deliberately chosen to grab attention and sound unpleasant, apparently, if you believe the Wiki article on the US EAS it's based on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Alert_System

"The SAME header bursts are followed by an attention tone, which lasts between 8 and 25 seconds, depending on the originating station. The tone is 1050 Hz (help·info) on a NOAA Weather Radio station. On commercial broadcast stations, a "two-tone" (help·info) attention signal of 853 Hz and 960 Hz sine waves is used instead, the same signal used by the older Emergency Broadcast System. These tones have become infamous, and can be considered both frightening and annoying by viewers; in fact, the two tones, which form approximately the interval of a just major second at an unusually high pitch, were chosen specifically for their ability to draw attention, due to their unpleasantness on the human ear. The SAME header is equally known for its shrillness, which many have found to be startling. The "two-tone" system is no longer required as of 1998, and is to be used only for audio alerts before EAS messages.[57][full citation needed] Like the EBS, the attention signal is followed by a voice message describing the details of the alert."

Post edited at 12:10
In reply to deepsoup:

> If you live in a city centre you'd have heard the sirens of the "four minute warning", 

Were there any such sirens? The only siren I remember from my childhood was the Broadmoor siren, tested every Monday at 10 am. Given that I lived within nuclear spitting distance of several high value military targets, if there had been attack sirens, I think we might have known about them.

In reply to ExiledScot:

> The tech exists you could target any phone currently hand shaking with a given mast. It requires a little geeky work, but more than feasible. 

I assumed most warnings would only be sent to the geographically-relevant masts.

I'm not sure who is going to be doing the information gathering to support these warnings, or provide the authorisation and authentication mechanisms to direct them appropriately. I very much doubt any funding has been provided for LAs. Is there a mate of the Cabinet involved? Harding, perhaps?

 Neil Williams 21 Mar 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > If you live in a city centre you'd have heard the sirens of the "four minute warning", 

> Were there any such sirens? The only siren I remember from my childhood was the Broadmoor siren, tested every Monday at 10 am. Given that I lived within nuclear spitting distance of several high value military targets, if there had been attack sirens, I think we might have known about them.

I recall a similar one where I grew up which I think was from the similar establishment that was located in north Maghull.  It was quite eerie.

The one you get round here is the fire alarm at the MK Dons stadium which you can hear for miles if it goes off at night.  It did on the first night of COVID lockdown, and sent chills down my spine.

 ExiledScot 21 Mar 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

I expect this type of thing would only be operated and authorised by those supervising emergency call control rooms. It'll just be another folder of actions and computer terminal. 

 Ridge 21 Mar 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > If you live in a city centre you'd have heard the sirens of the "four minute warning", 

> Were there any such sirens? The only siren I remember from my childhood was the Broadmoor siren, tested every Monday at 10 am. Given that I lived within nuclear spitting distance of several high value military targets, if there had been attack sirens, I think we might have known about them.

One went off in Leeds City Centre one Saturday in the 1980s (round about the time 'Threads' was shown on TV).

It went eerily quiet, everyone looked at each other, shrugged, then carried on shopping.

 deepsoup 21 Mar 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Were there any such sirens?

I don't know how many there were or how extensive the network was, but I saw for myself that there was definitely a honking big air raid siren on the roof of Sheffield City Hall while I was working there back in the late '80s.  (A relatively new and shiny one, definitely not a relic from the 1940's.)

The siren I saw was kind of thing - quite a powerful electric motor with a mechanical rotary siren mounted on the shaft at each end:


 Garethza 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> Its a real invasion of privacy.

So is being dead

 mrphilipoldham 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Ian W:

Surely if your eyes and ears are working well enough to register a warning on your phone then they’re working well enough to look out of the window and see the weather deteriorating. If you’ve left it until your phone tells you to batten down the hatches then it’s probably already too late. Because as pointed out, too many false alarms and the whole premise of the system becomes a laughing stock and seen as nothing more than state mollycoddling. 

 mrphilipoldham 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

Exactly this. Living above Hebden Bridge I can just about hear the tests of the old air raid siren for flooding, even though they don’t directly affect me (if I flood, the rest of the country will be submarine accessible only). There’s also the flood warden. Is this a 1950s way of doing things? Yes. Does it work? Yes. Does the entire population of the valley need an anxiety inducing personal attack on the ears and eyes every time the few %age of the population who live on the lowest of the valley floor are at risk of flooding? No. The river level, and predicted river level is freely available on the environment agency website, and if you’ve got a phone capable of receiving these alerts then you’ve got access to that data except in the tiniest minority of cases. Chances are those cases will be old folk who’ve seen it all before and know through experience when flooding is imminent if they so happen to be a recluse and don’t speak to anyone else. 

In reply to captain paranoia:

> I'm sure this system was trialled last year some time.

Aha. The BBC report says it was trialled in Reading last year. I didn't hear it...

 Ian W 21 Mar 2023
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Surely if your eyes and ears are working well enough to register a warning on your phone then they’re working well enough to look out of the window and see the weather deteriorating. If you’ve left it until your phone tells you to batten down the hatches then it’s probably already too late. Because as pointed out, too many false alarms and the whole premise of the system becomes a laughing stock and seen as nothing more than state mollycoddling. 

For 99% of cases absolutely right - i think something like this could be useful in cases like Storm Arwen, when the forecast was upgraded hereabouts from really bad to OMG, and the actuality was even worse, but as I said above that really was a once in a lifetime storm. For weather it should be restricted to these type of events; the cut off for severity should be pretty high, as if it is used too often, it'll then be ignored, and specifically ignored the one time it was justified. Just look at car alarms; they are seen as an annoyance, not something that should be taken as an alert. The alternative take would be a tree falls on a car, killing the driver. "he / she shouldnt have gone out in that weather!" "Yeah, but there was no warning on the phone so it must have been ok"..........

For civil defence type things (invasion / nukes) then what is lacking is a follow up plan. So the alarm sounds, what do we do? During the war there were shelters to go to; not so now. Without a plan of action to follow, an alarm is pointless, and will before long be ignored.

As for the missing children bit, i'm not sure this is useful at all; maybe just a dog whistle type thing so we can be told not to switch them off in case we never find another missing child again? As you say, overuse and it becomes just another "urban noise" to be ignored; never mind the inevitable conspiract theory stuff concerning state control / WEF / great reset etc etc.

but given it seems to be a new thing, I suppose its a case of wait and see.......

In reply to Ian W:

> i think something like this could be useful in cases like Storm Arwen, when the forecast was upgraded hereabouts from really bad to OMG

But who makes that decision, locally? Based on what measure/criteria?

> but given it seems to be a new thing, I suppose its a case of wait and see......

It's not a new thing; it's just the first UK use of a capability that has been present in smart phones for ages. My 2016 Moto E2, running Android 6, has Extreme/Severe emergency broadcast reception capability, plus missing child (AMBER) messaging.

 Ian W 21 Mar 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > i think something like this could be useful in cases like Storm Arwen, when the forecast was upgraded hereabouts from really bad to OMG

> But who makes that decision, locally? Based on what measure/criteria?

Might be nice to be told that, but y'know.....

> > but given it seems to be a new thing, I suppose its a case of wait and see......

> It's not a new thing; it's just the first UK use of a capability that has been present in smart phones for ages. My 2016 Moto E2, running Android 6, has Extreme/Severe emergency broadcast reception capability, plus missing child (AMBER) messaging.

Its only new in that we've not yet used it. Do you happen to know if this capability has always been built into the android phone OS (since it has been in use in other countries apparently), or whether it has been part of an upgrade? I must confess I've never really looked before yesterday when I read this thread......i'm now on android 8.1, but thats certainly an update since I got this phone....

 wercat 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Ian W:

during a number of storms this century mobile phones have been off in parts of Cumbria.  One very big storm with much flooding put electricity and mobiles off for a number of days (only 2 for us) (dial up internet worked of course from a laptop connected to a car battery).

for the first day national radio stations carried nothing about what was happening here till the late evening.  The only source of information was BBC local Radio and that is being severely cut back by the BBC.  No doubt they think the money would be better spent on podcasts and web pages that will be useless with no power and where and when mobiles are off.  Plus, everyone wants to access information "on the phone" while driving or doing other essential things don't they.

Analogue Radio gets through at the cost of milliwatts of receiver drain when and where it is needed and does not occupy your hands and vision so to do.  The Technobumpkins at the BBC should remember that.

plus, show me the mobile phone that will provide up to date information to you 50 or 60 years after it was made and is still backwards compatible with the transmission modes in use in 1922!

Post edited at 17:12
 wercat 21 Mar 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

Every fire station used to have something like that.  There used to be a grey box with a speaker that monitored the dedicated comms line that would have instructed that the siren be used.  The cottage we live in used to be the village post office and they had one too.

I'm glad I've got an EMP proof radio with nuclear protection diodes to shut it down if there is a strike.  At least it will survive even if there is no one to operate it

https://www.cryptomuseum.com/radio/mel/prc319/index.htm

Post edited at 17:24
 wercat 21 Mar 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

Harding?

I thought Grant Shapps (and his other personas) were the goto dodgy web/phone app people

Post edited at 17:38
 wercat 21 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

you'll be ok in any scenario as long as you've set your CRM 114 Discriminator correctly

In reply to Ian W:

> Its only new in that we've not yet used it. Do you happen to know if this capability has always been built into the android phone OS

Did you read the post you replied to...?

 Dave the Rave 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Garethza:

> So is being dead

That’s a bit dramatic. Everything has to be a drama though these days doesn’t it.

 Ian W 22 Mar 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > Its only new in that we've not yet used it. Do you happen to know if this capability has always been built into the android phone OS

> Did you read the post you replied to...?

Yes; between thee and me, we can only ge back to 2016 (your andriod 6). I'm asking if it has been on versions of android before that; i've never noticed, but haven't looked, and wondering if those who know more about theae things than i could tell me how long its been part of the android phone OS....

In reply to Ian W:

Since it derives from US requirements, probably some time between 2009 and 2012:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Emergency_Alerts

 Ian W 22 Mar 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

That makes sense. Ta much - I now know more than i did before!


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