/ Panorama show Thursday night

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Offwidth 12 Jul 2019

Worrying stuff from but sadly not a big surprise. Corbyn needs to act properly on this major problem or it could be the end of him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0006p8c

A range of comments on the show are here. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/11/bbc-panorama-antisemitism-labour-racism-jeremy-corbyn

Jon Lansman fails to deal fairly with the issues raised and mainly smeers the BBC and the interviewees: hardly a sign the 'inner circle' will shift soon.

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Rob Exile Ward 12 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Yep - when there is just the tiniest possibility of actually forcing a GE and reversing Brexit, JC and his team still manage to find new ways to put people off voting for them. 

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krikoman 12 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

John Ware, can hardly be classed as an unbiased reporter, look at his other works in relation to Labour, chopped out Abbott's interview and misreported a number of emails.

Obviously, there's an issue, but if it was such a big issue, there'd have been at least one conviction, AS is against the law. The only conviction I know of was some nutter attacking Burger, and he had FA to do with Labour, not that, that was widely reported. The abuse was and it was linked to Labour in the reporting, but he was a loaner and nowt to do with Labour, still that doesn't fit the narrative, most people are being fed.

AS is something we should be tackling as a society, it's not limited to the Labour party, though if you believe the reporting, it seems it is.

Post edited at 15:21
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DancingOnRock 12 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Get on Twitter and follow Rachel Riley. It’s been majorly kicking off there for months. 

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Pefa 12 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

I can't watch BBC so I cannot comment on that Panorama but this is all conspiracy to keep JC out as there is as much anti-semitism in the Labour Party as there is anywhere else.

It's very obvious. 

Post edited at 15:43
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wercat 12 Jul 2019
In reply to Pefa:

I can't comment on this but traffic-analysis of BBC coverage seems that it would appear to contain far more propagation of the objectives of Brexiteers and Conservative leadership candidates (ie real message content) than about the political aspirations of labour to the extent that coverage of the latter appears to be suppressed.  The only Labour signal traffic permitted by the BBC appears to be unfavourable and to leave the impression of "something wrong" rather than any genuine labour message content.  I find this as disturbing as the rise of Boris.  This is very unbalanced and letting us down as voters.

I say this not as a labour supporter as I am Lib Dem

Post edited at 15:59
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Rob Exile Ward 12 Jul 2019
In reply to wercat:

Anecdotally the Today program seems to rarely get the opportunity to interview official front line Labour spokespersons, least of all of course JC.

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krikoman 12 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Get on Twitter and follow Rachel Riley. It’s been majorly kicking off there for months. 


I've looked on there a couple of times, and they seem to be able to paint everyone who wants rights for Palestinians as anti-Semites, with no sense of irony.

some of the stuff she re-Tweets is incredibly stupid for a woman who, on the surface at least, appears very clever. Almost nothing is questioned, there was a story about "brave AS activists" which despite the dangers had "infiltrated" the Palestinian Rights march, to bring back evidence of the evil intentions of the marchers.

1) no "infiltration" is necessary, it was a march in a public place, so the "brave activists" could simply walk down the same street.

2) How would anyone know these "brave activists" were Jewish, unless they're promoting the often quoted AS aligation that saying people "look Jewish" is a from of AS.

3) There was no mention of the numerous different Jewish groups, who were marching for Palestinian rights.

So once again, were left with people with an agenda, claiming stuff about someone else, while limiting the facts they are either prepared to acknowledge or are happy to ignore.

There's a lot of people who are making a lot of noise about AS in the Labour party, not because there's a lot of it, but because they WANT there to be a lot of it.

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krikoman 12 Jul 2019
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Are you discounting Andrew Marr as not being part of the BBC, Corbyn , McDonnell, and Barry Gardiner all been on numerous times in the past year.

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Coel Hellier 12 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> Obviously, there's an issue, but if it was such a big issue, there'd have been at least one conviction, AS is against the law.

Which law is being anti-Semitic a violation of?

An anti-Semitic motive would indeed be an aggravating factor to something that is itself a crime.    Further, employment law would prevent an employer discriminating on such grounds.  But, in itself, being anti-Semitic and expressing anti-Semitic attitudes is not against the law, is it?

And the same would apply to any other form of racism. 

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krikoman 12 Jul 2019
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> Which law is being anti-Semitic a violation of?

Turns out I was wrong someone has been arrested :-

"Patricia Sheerin, a 72-year old former Labour party member, was arrested last week for publishing or distributing “material likely to stir up racial hatred,” a police spokesman told Sky News."

I grant you simply being AS isn't a crime as such, but much of the palava  directed against the Labour party is about Tweet and Facebook shite, so open to the same scope as the above.

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Timmd 12 Jul 2019
In reply to wercat: There's much to add other than 'yes indeed'.

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NathanP 12 Jul 2019
In reply to Pefa:

> I can't watch BBC so I cannot comment on that Panorama but this is all conspiracy to keep JC out as there is as much anti-semitism in the Labour Party as there is anywhere else.

> It's very obvious. 

Yes, it’s clearly all a conspiracy. Probably a Jewish global one. 

https://newsthump.com/2019/07/11/labour-blames-accusations-of-anti-semitism-on-global-jewish-conspiracy-to-undermine-jeremy-corbyn/

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Wanderer100 12 Jul 2019
In reply to wercat:

> I can't comment on this but traffic-analysis of BBC coverage seems that it would appear to contain far more propagation of the objectives of Brexiteers and Conservative leadership candidates (ie real message content) than about the political aspirations of labour to the extent that coverage of the latter appears to be suppressed.  The only Labour signal traffic permitted by the BBC appears to be unfavourable and to leave the impression of "something wrong" rather than any genuine labour message content.  I find this as disturbing as the rise of Boris.  This is very unbalanced and letting us down as voters.

> I say this not as a labour supporter as I am Lib Dem

Total and utter crap. You're deluding yourself and seeing and hearing what suits your narrow anti BBC and anti Tory agenda. 

Post edited at 21:05
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john arran 12 Jul 2019
In reply to NathanP:

You need to be careful with satire nowadays. People will take you seriously!

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sammy5000 12 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Whats worrying is the media and others portraying anti israeli policies as anti semitism.

I have friends of jewish decent. I dont agree with alot of things israel does.

But i dont think they would descibe me as anti semitic. More just a case of being morally just!

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Pefa 12 Jul 2019
In reply to NathanP:

> Yes, it’s clearly all a conspiracy. Probably a Jewish global one. 

Double wammy!

It's obvious though. JC says he will recognise Palestine when he gets into No10 so Israeli government and intelligence get their people to start a standard intelligence campaign to smear him just like tons of intelligence smear campaigns before.

This gets the full backing of all Corbyn's enemies : the Tory press barons+BBC, Tory party and their Blairite ideological friends in the Labour aristocracy and you have a full blown campaign that is seen as factual when it's BS. 

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neilh 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Pefa:

Considering Tom Watson’s background on tackling Murdoch etc it is possible that your comments do not stand up to a bit more scrutiny. 

Any organisation which calls former employees out as disaffected always bothers me especially when there is more than 1 of them.

best way of dealing with it is always to be open and transparent across the board. Do not conceal documents or reports. That way it shows you have nothing to hide. 

Remember watergate. It was the coverup that nailed Nixon, not the original offence.

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wercat 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Wanderer100:

If I am anti BBC why do I spend so much time tuned to it?

I am perhaps anti the way it is run at the moment.   I've been a BBC viewer/listener for 60 years

Post edited at 10:31
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elsewhere 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Pretty horrible stories from staff and Jewish members. Stuff like "dirty Jew"  - wtf! 

And the next day JC declined to speak to the press about his concerns about antisemitism and his determination to root it out from the party. He's useless or worse.

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Timmd 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Wanderer100:

> Total and utter crap. You're deluding yourself and seeing and hearing what suits your narrow anti BBC and anti Tory agenda. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-party-media-reform-coalition-birkbeck-a7163706.html

An academic study has found bias in the evening television coverage by the BBC.

Post edited at 11:38
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krikoman 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> An academic study has found bias in the evening television coverage by the BBC.


Don't be bringing facts to this argument!

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Offwidth 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Timmd:

I'm sure the BBC being an oil tanker of a journalistic organisation is always going to end up  being a bit biased against the likes of Corbyn, being a good bit left of centre and say Rees Mogg being a good bit right of centre, in trying to balance the overall organisational views to the population average.  I'm still lost on how the relevance of this applies to the Panorama expose. The details on reported antisemitism complaints and failure to act on them look serious and need a much better response than the typical spin commentry offered by the party for the programme. The party's mistakes and delays with dealing with such compliants has been publicly admitted and apologies made. Now it seems the party machine effectively took over management of what was supposed to be an independent complaints process and in that and some other respects, heavily misrepresented their actual position to the press.

Tory party responses to islamophobic complaints are also very problematic 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48083415

That Mark Steel points out these are far larger in scale and seriousness simply doesn't excuse Labour (but does show how the press as a whole is failing to tackle such problems).

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-antisemitism-corbyn-tory-islamophobia-panorama-bbc-a9000261.html

I'd argue both sets of wrongs need tackling rigorously in the press. Political parties need proportionate and suitably independant complaints processes.

Post edited at 14:36
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summo 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Timmd: 

> An academic study has found bias in the evening television coverage by the BBC.

It's true. Not once has he been on question time or any questions. Wonder if he has ever been invited or asked? 

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summo 13 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> Don't be bringing facts to this argument!

I think it's terrible. The other day he did a clear and concise shift in labour's Brexit policy. He no doubt as aspirant PM held a press conference, maybe answered a few questions, so there were no grey areas in his position. 

And what did the BBC show, two women arguing in Spanish on his door step. 

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Timmd 13 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> Don't be bringing facts to this argument!

Quite interesting, all it took was a google. The internet is a vast tool.

Post edited at 15:41
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krikoman 13 Jul 2019
In reply to summo:

> And what did the BBC show, two women arguing in Spanish on his door step. 

How much more pro-European do you want?

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krikoman 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> The internet is a vast tool.

Easy now!

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Wanderer100 13 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

It's not a fact. It's an opinion. 

What is a fact is that the BBC is accused of bias by both sides of the political spectrum which is evidence of it being reasonable and balanced in its reporting.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-BBC-pro-Labour-instead-of-being-neutral-as-it-should-be-because-it-is-paid-for-by-all-members-of-the-community

Post edited at 16:24
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DancingOnRock 13 Jul 2019
In reply to sammy5000:

That’s because Israel is the Jewish homeland. Criticise the state of Israel and you are criticising the Jewish people.This is where Ken Livingstone frequently comes unstuck with his anti Zionist slant.

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summo 13 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> How much more pro-European do you want?

Doesn't exactly correlate with his last 40 years in parliament? 

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Timmd 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Wanderer100:

> It's not a fact. It's an opinion. 

> What is a fact is that the BBC is accused of bias by both sides of the political spectrum which is evidence of it being reasonable and balanced in its reporting.

The study in the article I linked to, recorded the numbers of different kinds of coverage and the use of language via different media channels over a certain period of time. 

I'm on the fence about Corbyn by the way, I don't know what to think of him (or haven't given him enough thought), I tend to vote Green. 

Post edited at 17:28
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Offwidth 13 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

He came 'unstuck' for saying: "When Hitler won his election in 1932 his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Livingstone

Note also from the link "a transcript came into the possession of LBC of his comments during the March 2017 hearing into his conduct.[351] He told the internal party inquiry that he had been advised by members of Corbyn's staff, including Seumas Milne and Simon Fletcher, about his comments to the media. The former London Mayor also said tweets had been posted in his name by people from Corbyn's office.[351]"

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DancingOnRock 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

That’s wasn’t the first nor the last time though. He’s no longer a member but he was discussing this topic on BBC London with Vanessa Feltz this week, and still tries to separate Jews, Zionism and Israel. Unfortunately for him the three are pretty much entwined politically by certain people.

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Timmd 13 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

The blurring of the three is unfortunate, because it's a cloak for anti-semites to hide under as much as it is a way for pro Israel people to shut down any criticism. If everybody was straight forward, it'd be easier to say what one thinks, or to talk about uncomfortable truths. I can't be the first person to think straight forwardness and honourableness would solve a lot of problems. 

Post edited at 18:13
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Eric9Points 13 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> That’s because Israel is the Jewish homeland. Criticise the state of Israel and you are criticising the Jewish people.This is where Ken Livingstone frequently comes unstuck with his anti Zionist slant.


No. Criticism of Israel is not anti Semitic. Not all Jews live in Israel. Not everyone that lives in Israel is Jewish.

If I accuse the Israeli government of committing war crimes against Gaza for example, I am not being racist.

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Wanderer100 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Eric9Points:

> No. Criticism of Israel is not anti Semitic. Not all Jews live in Israel. Not everyone that lives in Israel is Jewish.

> If I accuse the Israeli government of committing war crimes against Gaza for example, I am not being racist.

You're wasting your breath.  If it was left to some in these forums you would be hung drawn and quartered 10.minutes ago for even daring to suggest the State of Israel is engaged in reprehensible war crimes against the Palestinians. 

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Timmd 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Eric9Points:

> No. Criticism of Israel is not anti Semitic. Not all Jews live in Israel. Not everyone that lives in Israel is Jewish.

> If I accuse the Israeli government of committing war crimes against Gaza for example, I am not being racist.

Looking at his later post(s), I get the impression he was talking about what can (sometimes) be the perception. I agree by the way.

Post edited at 19:33
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DancingOnRock 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Timmd:

Indeed. 

They’re not my rules, don’t shoot the messenger. Criticise Israel and I’m afraid  you will almost definitely be accused of anti-semitism.

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Pefa 13 Jul 2019
In reply to neilh:

> Considering Tom Watson’s background on tackling Murdoch etc it is possible that your comments do not stand up to a bit more scrutiny. 

The phone hacking in 2011 when he was minister for media etc ? This is a completely different situation as he is now deputy PM and likely being groomed by his former bosses (Blair and Brown) for PM and who is standing in the way? 

> Any organisation which calls former employees out as disaffected always bothers me especially when there is more than 1 of them.

I don't know what you refer to there if it's in Panorama I don't have a license to watch it. 

> best way of dealing with it is always to be open and transparent across the board. Do not conceal documents or reports. That way it shows you have nothing to hide. 

The documents I'm told were available for Watson to see. 

> Remember watergate. It was the coverup that nailed Nixon, not the original offence.

This isn't a cover up its a stich up. 

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Timmd 13 Jul 2019
In reply to Eric9Points:

agree with yourself that is.

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Jim Fraser 14 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

All utter bo11ocks. 

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.

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FactorXXX 14 Jul 2019
In reply to Jim Fraser:

> DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.

This was posted by MG on another thread:

https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1150132173166534656?s=19

What's your thoughts about that?
More Trolling?
Just another 'Disaffected' Labour Party member and therefore can be dismissed essentially as a trouble maker?

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summo 14 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Quality quote from Corbyn at the Durham miners gala. "It feels like coming home". Hardly, a bloke in million pound plus London home, never had a proper job in his life, probably still banks £100k of public money annually etc.. has absolutely nothing in common with anybody or their families who have ever worked in a mine.

No different to McCluskey from the security of his nice salary stirring up thousands of Heathrow workers to strike.(hold holiday makers to ransom). Don't people ever learn.  

Post edited at 07:17
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neilh 14 Jul 2019
In reply to Pefa:

Well Watson resigned/ sacked from Blair’s government at one stage. ( after he told Blair he should resign over Iraq)

He has always been a campaigner for Freedom Of Information and openness and has not seen. the documents / reports since February. He was stopped form having access to them. Until then you are right he had access. 

Post edited at 10:05
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Offwidth 14 Jul 2019
In reply to neilh:

Indeed. Its ridiculous to suggest Watson is a Blairite poodle.

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Offwidth 14 Jul 2019
In reply to Wanderer100:

I'd be interested to know who those posters are. The Israel government continues to breach UN resolutions and its record on human rights can be viewed via Amnesty alongside any other country.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

I don't think its at all hard to draw the line between legitimate criticism of a government and racist attack on jews.

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summo 14 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Indeed. I think most posters are capable of understanding what is wrong with Israeli land grabs, walls etc.. but also have the wisdom to know that it's a whole different thing when a UK political party leader publically attends a wreath laying commemoration of the Palestinian terrorists in the Munich Olympics attack. 

Being against Israeli policy doesn't mean you are a supporter of Hezbollah, unless you are Corbyn(and no doubt others in his group). 

Post edited at 12:01
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Pefa 14 Jul 2019
In reply to neilh:

> Well Watson resigned/ sacked from Blair’s government at one stage. ( after he told Blair he should resign over Iraq)

Yes and immediately brought back in by Brown who has a huge sway in the Labour Party to this day and let's face it Watson has been a member of Friends Of Israel since he first entered Parliament and they have been exposed as an Israeli embassy front group. 

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/labour-friends-israel-israeli-embassy-front

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neilh 14 Jul 2019
In reply to Pefa:

Which just goes to show that most politicians have a variety of views.

Corbyn’ s office is just blaming the messenger.

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Offwidth 14 Jul 2019
In reply to Pefa:

Seems Emily Thornbury on Andrew Marr is the latest Blairite poodle  ?! ;-)

Good on her... this idiocy providing cover and soft penalties for a small minority of hard left antisemites in Labour needs to end. Then we can think about  dealing with the much bigger problem of mass Islamophobia in the Conservative party.

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Pefa 15 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

" Hard left anti-semites", who would that be then?

Thornbury? What?

Post edited at 01:11
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neilh 15 Jul 2019
In reply to Pefa:

How about dealing with the message instead?

I see the Party uses NDA’s when it suits. 

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krikoman 14:25 Sat
krikoman 14:27 Sat
In reply to summo:

> Quality quote from Corbyn at the Durham miners gala. "It feels like coming home".

Weirdly, I felt like I was "coming home" when I visited India, are you suggesting I shouldn't have?

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In reply to Offwidth:

I haven't mentioned this before, but it grates with me that you refer to Panorama as 'the Panorama show'. I really hope they don't call it that now (I haven't got a telly). It was always meant to be a serious, critical current affairs programme and not an entertainment in any way. When I worked on Panorama for a couple of years in the late 70s, it was as always referred to as a programme and never a show.

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Offwidth 14:38 Sat
In reply to krikoman:

Some doubt about minor facts based on witness statement that hardly form the core of the argument: that Labour HQ interfered in the investigations process. Clutching at straws comes to mind. Sure there was politics involved in this... Labour spent decades tying to remove and keep out far left groups and under Corbyn's leadership that was reversed. I know Trade Union activists who were proudly SWP and Respect who are now proudly Labour again.

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FactorXXX 14:53 Sat
In reply to krikoman:

This is what the well known Right Wing activist Owen Jones says about The Canary:
"really promotes conspiracy theories and a lot of things that just aren't right. I worry about the Canary-isation of the left, where it ends up in a bizarre sub-culture that anyone who doesn't agree is seen as part of a conspiracy. But then you do get those blogs on left and right."

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Offwidth 15:04 Sat
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Are you serious?...  you really want to argue about semantics in such context??.

OK then...I think pretty much all TV news output is dumbed down, including the BBC, as they are all terrified of ratings. It's a show. The Panorama in question would have been a lot more effective if some of the sensationalism around what individuals claimed was less front and centre, and the control excerted by Labour HQ on the internal party investigations (and the lies made to the press) was much more the main focus.

I've watched decades of this nasty factional aggression from some on the far left  in my Unions, often blanket linked by some to Israel with racist memes (never justified even though its government crimes - linked above from Amnesty- were serious): it was always possible (and never racist) to just attack the governments actions. It was inevitable to me that it would infect Labour as soon as the membership checks were softened. The show simply didn't need to prove some Labour members were racist to Jews when one of their most left leaning leaders, Ken, did it on film. What it did show is that the party under Corbyn lied to the press and most likely interfered to delay, reduce or remove penalties for racist comment.

I'm saddened to have to highlight Labour problems, as the evidence shows the tories are orders of magnitudes worse when it comes to Islamophobia. Yet, I think its beholdant on a progressive party to hold to higher standards in this respect. Some tories always used dog whistles.

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In reply to Offwidth:

Your third and fourth paragraph scarcely address my point, unless you were using the term 'show' ironically ... which you imply in your second paragraph. If so, you're agreeing with me, which is odd in the extreme, having sneered at me in your first para for being 'semantic'.

PS. There's nothing I can see in your original post (eg. a capital S for show, or the word in quotes), or anything in your replies, to suggest you were being ironic. I suspect that, on the contrary, the term just slipped out when you first wrote it because you've long since fallen into the parlance of regarding all TV progs as 'shows'.

Post edited at 16:03
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Offwidth 16:23 Sat
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'm not sneering at you, just exasperated you feel you need to make such a point. The BBC radio news output can still be excellent, so the fact that most of the BBC TV news output is so poor in comparison is clearly a depressing choice of 'auntie'. Panorama is very much a show: it could be way better in terms of Journalistic standards but the ratings would drop. In this important episode it almost lost the main mesage of Labour HQ iinterference and 'can kicking', behind some pretty irrelevant but sensationalist personal experience of antisemitism in the party investigations team. The actual Labour complaints about the show may well even be justified but again are small beer compared to what was uncovered. Even the Scum, Excess and Fail expose important wrong-doings from time-to-time despite much worse standards than the TV output of the beeb... we can all hope better journalism will one day be desired  by the bulk of our population.

Post edited at 16:27
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