Old PC - time to renovate, or just replace?

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 Jamie Wakeham 24 Mar 2021

I bought my PC in 2008, for almost exactly £1000.  Since then it's had a few upgrades - I bought it a new SSD and a better used graphics card, and it got a free memory upgrade when the original RAM died.  Total expenditure is less than £1200, which isn't too bad for 13 years of use.

The core of the PC is an Asus P6T mobo with a 1st gen Core i7 920 processor, 12GB 2000MHz RAM, 300GB SSD and 500GB data HDD, GTX970 graphics card.  It's running Win10, on the free upgrade from its original Win7. 

Over the last year or so it's become a bit erratic - not always sleeping, sometimes not waking back up from sleep, the odd random crash.  It's also developed an annoying habit of forgetting which hard drive holds the OS, so I have to go and reset where the BIOS looks for Windows about once a month.  This is coinciding with switching the entirety of my tutoring business onto Zoom, which is making me very nervous!  If it abruptly died on the wrong day, I could lose £400 of work that I'd never get back.

So, my main question: is it worth having a go at wiping the SSD and doing a clean install of Windows?  As I said, it's Win 10 built on top of Win7, with various drivers and whatnot added piecemeal, and there are approximately a billion apps installed over the last 13 years.  I wonder if it would be worth spending a day formatting the SD and doing a fresh install from scratch, and see if that sorts the issues out.

Or, given the age of the kit, is it time to flog it for whatever I can get and buy new?  It's done its time, and given how reliant I am on my PC now it would be reassuring to have a new one.

I don't do anything terribly demanding - I very occasionally play games like Doom 3 and Quake 4, which the existing setup manages ell enough, and it might be nice to be able to run some slightly newer titles, but it's not a big thing.  I mainly just need reliability for Zoom!

 Alkis 24 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

A reinstall would be worth a try, although for the issue of it forgetting where to boot from, I'd replace the CMOS battery. The 920 was a beast for its time and it still gives respectable amounts of performance. My current desktop is an i7 3930k I got in 2012, overclocked to 4.2-4.5GHz and it's ridiculous how well it deals with any modern workload I throw at it. Gains have slowed down.

Post edited at 18:46
 Jack B 24 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I'm slightly famous among those who know me as for keeping old kit going as long as possible. Especially stuff like complex electronics which has a big environmental impact. So my answer is definitely to renovate!

As Alkis said, forgetting bios settings is a classic sign the CMOS battery needs replacing, and 13 years is definitely long enough to need it. It's a watch-style battery and usually they have the size engraved on them, make sure the replacement goes in the right way round.

A possibly quicker alternative to wiping and reinstalling is to go Settings  > Update & Security > Recovery > Open Recovery Settings > Reset this PC. You have the option to keep or delete files and to have or not have the preinstalled crap (if any) from when it was built.  It will reinstall windows 10 and delete all drivers and programs and reset settings to defaults. Should take an hour or so, plus time to reinstall the apps you want.

If you do decide to replace, then the SSD, HDD, GPU, case, and maybe the PSU can be reused with a new processor/mobo/RAM. 

On the games front, I bet it would run some newer-than-quake4 games with pretty respectable quality.  Probably most things released before 2016 and a decent fraction of later things too. That GTX 970 is no slouch, and GPU matters more than CPU does for games. You can compare your hardware to minimum or recommended parts with userbenchmark.com.

Post edited at 19:56
1
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

New CMOS battery.

System cleanup.

Remove any unused programs, especially those that launch services.

 alibrightman 24 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

If all you need is reliability for Zoom calls, have a look at getting a refurbished PC.  I got a Dell Optiplex 7010 from Dell Refurbished for £100 in December 2019.  It's a brilliant piece of kit.

Replacing the CMOS battery is a good idea for the issue of forgetting the boot drive.

Avoid "system cleanup" utilities like the plague. You don't need your registry cleaned.

Hope this helps.

Al

OP Jamie Wakeham 24 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Thanks, all.  I too am a long term keeper of electronics, so I'm very happy to have a go at renovating this PC.  Just didn't want to invest lots of time if it was going to be a waste in the end.

I'll give it a new CMOS battery, and reinstall Win10 on the SSD.  There are apps on there I've not used in a decade or more so I'm sure it'll benefit from a new start.

Presumably I can extract my product key for Office 2007 to reinstall it... don't really want to have to start paying for Office 365!

In reply to alibrightman:

> Avoid "system cleanup" utilities like the plague.

I meant the windows one, get rid of all sorts of cruft from the OS install.

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Presumably I can extract my product key for Office 2007 to reinstall it...

I recently switched my old Win7 Pro machine from 32-bit to 64-bit. When I rescued it from a skip, it has a 32-bit OS on it, even though it's a 64-bit AMD. I had installed Office using their HUP a few years ago, and was worried about the licence. I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to recover the licence. I did have the original purchase email, which was a good starting point.

It took me about a day to upgrade and re-install and reconfigure all the software. I started with a spare HDD, and made sure everything was working okay before I committed to copying it to the main HDD. I took images of everything with Macrium, so it wasn't irreversible anyway...

All this so I could use some RAM a mate sent me; can now use the 11GB, rather than just 3.5GB limit of the 32-bit OS.

 Siward 25 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

My old pc has had, at various times, a new graphics card, new ssd, new secondary hdd from my old laptop, new sound card, new processor and a new motherboard.

A bit like the axe with numerous handles and heads, but it's still in the original case  

OP Jamie Wakeham 25 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Thanks, all. Definitely sounds like it's worth giving this a shot.

Back up absolutely everything onto multiple hard drives. Get hold of Office product keys. Replace CMOS battery. Use the Windows utility to reinstall Win10 cleanly. 

I guess that at this stage I will need to download Office 2007 again to re-use my product keys.

I'll be really pleased if I can keep this going for a while longer. I've not yet started to OC the processor so if I can get it all stable and behaving nicely, I might start pushing that a little.

I suspect that, in the end, it's the limitations of the mobo that will end this PC. It can only take Gen 1 i7 chips, and has rather unusual triple channel memory. This was a bit handy when my RAM died, though: I wrote to Corsair to call in the lifetime warranty on my 3 X 2GB 1333MHz bog standard modules, and they slightly apologetically said that the only triple channel memory they still had available was 4GB 2000MHz Dominator modules, so would I very much mind if they sent me three of those instead?

 critter 25 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Obviously some very knowledgeable replies. Backup, backup and backup.

But................ Have you considered moving to one of the multiple free Linux distros available. Loads of free productivity tools, to replace Office.

Will run much more quickly than on Windows 10.

I'm sure most buy a new computer due to OS bloat rather than hardware problems.

OP Jamie Wakeham 25 Mar 2021
In reply to critter:

I've used Lubuntu to rescue ancient laptops before - I'd rather not have it as the OS on my main machine.  20 years or more of using Windows and I'm too set in my ways to change now!

 Babika 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Really interesting thread, thank you. 

It's given me food for thought about my 2010 PC which is starting to get flaky and show odd messages when I start up. Can't do the upgrades myself but at least I have some idea of what's needed now. 

Like others I always prefer the environmental aspect of not bringing more kit into the house if at all possible.

OP Jamie Wakeham 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Babika:

It's probably worth posting your machine's specs here, and then advice can be given as to whether it's worth trying to upgrade or not, and if so what to change first.  When I put mine together in 2008 I was very specifically trying to build something that was upgrade-ready and would be able to last for a long time - I am pleasantly surprised at how well I did.  Quite a bit was down to picking a processor that, in hindsight, is a bit of a beast.

I bet you could do quite a few of the upgrades yourself!  If you can use a screwdriver then RAM and GPU are trivial, and they're plug-and-play.  The single biggest difference is likely to come from switching from HDD to SSD, and that's physically not much harder but needs bit of fiddling to persuade the PC that the new drive is now the main one.  

 Babika 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Thank you! Like you I tried to future proof and the guy I got to put it all together said "this will last a long time" at the time but......

The processor says Intel (R) core (tm) i5-7200U 3mb cache up to 3.1ghz cpu 650@ 3.2ghz 6gb ram 1183 gb hard disk 60w hr integrated battery. 

Is that beyond the pale? I don't need it for gaming.

And I'm still on Windows 7.... .

Any advice gratefully accepted! 

 Alpenglow 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Babika:

That CPU should be fine for general browsing/office tasks.
6GB RAM is also ok, unless you run lots of programs at the same time.

I have a CPU with similar performance that only struggled when running Zoom & screensharing a browser with a few tabs open at the same time.

Upgrading the HDD to an SSD makes a big difference with speed, boot-up time etc.

You should also not use your PC with Windows 7, either upgrade to Windows 10, or install Linux on it.
Windows 7 no longer receives security updates, so PCs running it are vulnerable to things that are actively being exploited right now!

Linux Mint or Ubuntu are good well supported Linux distros that are very usable for a daily driver, and run especially well on older hardware compared to Windows.

OP Jamie Wakeham 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Babika:

That's a laptop, right, going by the fact you've mentioned a battery spec?  If so, upgrading things is a little more fiddly as there's less space to work in (and some components might be soldered down and non replaceable.

But yes, step 1 - you are running a non supported OS in Win7.  If it's within your ability to do so, I would back everything up to an external drive (I always use two at once, or just copy your backup to a mate's machine for the time being - never get to the point where a single drive failure could lose everything), and then do a fresh reinstallation of Win10.  It'll blank your hard drive and a fresh install will (like mine) probably speed things up a bit.

I think the free Win7 -> Win10 upgrade path still works - anyone done this recently?

Is it HDD or SSD?  If HDD, then it might be worth going SSD at the same time.

Post edited at 10:35
 Babika 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Ahhhh. I'm a numpty. That's the spec for my sons laptop. I just pulled the invoice/ spec out of the filing cabinet. 

My PC says Intel (R) Core (TM) i5 cpu 650 @ 3.2ghz 6GB ram. 1183GB hard disk 

I will get windows 10 thpugh - that sounds good advice

 Sean Kelly 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

The rule of 10 applies to all pc's ever since Alan Turing started building his. i.e. replace after 10 years!

OP Jamie Wakeham 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

As opposed to not permitting more than 10 PCs to mix outdoors unless they are from the same household..?

I was aiming for a decade in 2008 when I specced it, so to still have a fighting chance of keeping it going at 13 years is pleasing.  Keeps the cost/year below £100, which also feels a good target.

Post edited at 12:15
 wercat 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

there were no PCs then.  The term was invented in the 70s!

though some people thought the Novas and PDPs were a form of personal computing

Post edited at 12:16
 Alkis 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

The rule of 10 certainly broke in the past decade. The changes since Sandybridge hit the market have been incremental and even cumulatively do not add to much, provided everything else on the PC is up to date. If I were to upgrade while sticking to Intel, for instance, I would get a 30% or so CPU performance increase on a 9 year old machine. The generations before that, 5 years and the performance difference was too vast to contemplate.

Of course, since I am into games I have kept my GPU up to date, but other than that I haven't needed to do much else. Might get an (even) faster SSD at some point.

There is a lot of meat in older high end machines these days. Not so much at the low end.

 ian caton 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Pretty sure windows 10 is windows 10, ie completely replaces 7. Pretty sure you can find your key from within windows 10.

I just replaced, mobo, ram, cpu.

There is a really good free program which will mirror your present setup onto a stick in case of screw up. Can't remember it's name. But if you Google around replacing mobo's etc you will quickly come across its name. 

 CantClimbTom 28 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Wipe it and reinstall from clean.

The "trick" is with the licence. Microsoft are surprisingly shy to advertise this, but a licence can be done in 2 ways... Assigned to the installation, assigned to the user.

If you wipe and reinstall and don't have a licence then you are in trouble. One option is this..

Convert your login to computer a Microsoft login (yes you need a Microsoft account) in settings user accounts.

Then you can associate/import your existing Windows licence to YOU!

Lastly, you wipe/reinstall then PC and login with your Microsoft user and the licence follows YOU, and it works automagically without needing to buy another licence. You can see why they are oddly quiet about this method, it makes them no money.

Have done it myself and it works

 ericinbristol 31 Mar 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

Very interesting. Could you set out the exact steps please? Thanks

 Lukasz Kisala 31 Mar 2021

I agree, +10 year old PCs are basically bin nowadays. Yes you can reinstall and replace some bits but it isn't going to make it modern. Better get a mid range £400 pc and enjoy hassle free computing for another +10 years.

However, for some still on Windows 7 and an old school HDD (no SSD) and computer only a few years old, you can simply follow this rough guide:

1. Backup your data

... upgrade to Windows 10
2. Make sure you have all current Windows Updates installed
3. Download and install "Windows Creation Tool". It will allow you to upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10 for free. Officially this is not suppose to be working anymore but works just fine. 
4. Open that program and pick an option to "Upgrade this PC" - it will upgrade you to Windows 10 in like 9 out of 10 cases. If it fails, it will revert back to previous version of Windows.
5. At this point you should have an operational and activated Windows 10

... upgrade to new SSD drive
6. Buy a Samsung SSD of enough capacity to accommodate the data you have (it has to be Samsung as it comes with super easy-to-use cloning software). Also buy "USB to SATA adapter" online, like £5-£10. Install "Samsung Migration Software".
11. Connect your new SSD drive using that adapter and open the program.
12. Start migration, the interface is so easy to use anyone can do it. Once migration is completed it will shut down your PC.
13. Swap your old drive for that new SSD, et voila!

You have now Windows 10 and new SSD and all your files and programs are still in place. It will seriously speed up any old PC.. well the SSD will.

An optional step
Once all the above is done you can run a "Windows Reset" which will reset your PC back to factory settings (basically a fresh install). However if that is your goal you can skip all the above and simply install Windows on a new SSD from scratch. You do, however, require a valid Windows 7/8 licence code in order to activate.

Sorry for a wall of text. I take no responsibility for any of the above

"Step 1" - is the most important one.. if you don't know what you are doing, ask for help your local IT place - they will do all the above for you... but again, don't pay too much, as you can get a modern PC for few hundred pounds.

In reply to Lukasz Kisala:

> it has to be Samsung as it comes with super easy-to-use cloning software

Or just download Macrium Reflect Free, and use any SSD//HDD you like.

https://www.macrium.com/reflectfree

There are handy scripts to find your OS and Office licence keys here:

http://www.howtogeek.com/206329/how-to-find-your-lost-windows-or-office-pro...

Post edited at 12:23
 wercat 31 Mar 2021
In reply to Lukasz Kisala:

I have to disagree - ~I'm typing this on a Dell E4300 made in 2008 running Windows 10 fine.  It is our main PC and after upgrading the main store to 4GB it is perfectly acceptable and suits our available budget

regular maintenance keeps it running smoothly.

Post edited at 14:33
 Siward 31 Mar 2021
In reply to wercat:

Also if one is prepared to replace the motherboard occasionally then that almost IS a new pc. 

In reply to wercat:

> I have to disagree - ~I'm typing this on a Dell E4300 made in 2008 running Windows 10 fine

My 2011 HP skip rescue is still working perfectly well. Installed a 64-bit OS a few weeks ago (it's an AMD Athlon, but it had a 32-bit windows on it for some reason).

 ericinbristol 31 Mar 2021
In reply to wercat:

Agree with you on this. My eight year old pc was slowing and often freezing. I eventually worked out (by watching lots of YouTube videos) the old hard drive was failing and the 8gb RAM struggling as soon as it went over 50%. I didn't want to buy a new pc: watched loads more YouTube videos and took the plunge and installed £60 16GB (2 x 8gb RAM) and £80 1TB SSD plus reinstall of Windows 10. The result is fantastic - boots in 17 seconds, multitasks beautifully, shuts down in 8 seconds. 

 CantClimbTom 01 Apr 2021
In reply to ericinbristol:

https://www.auslogics.com/en/articles/link-win10-product-key-to-a-microsoft...

Don't do the re-install until you have checked this

~~~~~~~~

If you want to verify whether your digital license has been linked successfully to your Microsoft account, you can follow the steps below:

Go to your taskbar and click the Search icon.

Inside the Search box, type “Settings” (no quotes), then hit Enter.

On the Settings app, click Update & Security.

Now, go to the menu on the left and click Activation.

If you’ve successfully linked your product key to your Microsoft account, you should see this message on the Activation page:

Windows is activated with a digital license linked to your Microsoft account.

 ericinbristol 01 Apr 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

Perfect! Many thanks! As it happens I did see the message, so I am a happy camper


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