Offsetting personal vehicle carbon emissions

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 Andy Johnson 06 Feb 2020

Does anyone here regularly pay to offset the carbon emissions from their fossil-fuel powered vehicle? If so, how? Any thoughts on how effective this is?

Edit: carbon

Post edited at 14:55
 WaterMonkey 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

It won't make a blind bit of difference to the children getting asthma due to traffic pollution.

5
Removed User 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Well if your money goes to fund a project that either takes CO2 out of the atmosphere like tree planting or goes towards the generation VB of solar or wind power I don't see how that can be a bad thing.

 mutt 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

definitely not. Offsetting is addressing emissions 10 or 20 years in the future. We need action NOW! Have you investigated making regular journeys on a e-bike or standard bike, or public transport? There are cycle lanes appearing daily if you are scared to ride your bike on the road.

3
 JLS 06 Feb 2020
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> It won't make a blind bit of difference to the children getting asthma due to traffic pollution.


Surely if a few more children die from asthma, it's good for the environment in the long run?

6
 Dr.S at work 06 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

If you reduce as much as you can, why not offset the rest? 

OP Andy Johnson 06 Feb 2020
In reply to WaterMonkey:

Not to dispute your point, but I've just edited the post to clarify that I was asking about carbon offsetting.

OP Andy Johnson 06 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

I agree. And I've spent almost 25 yrs using mostly public transport and walking/biking. But for various reasons I now have a car. I wish my budget made an electric vehicle feasible but it doesn't.

 David Riley 06 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

I'm very dubious that using public transport reduces emissions at all.  Certainly as cars become electric.

When I'm out running and a train goes past.  I'm often choked by the outrageous volume of unfiltered diesel fumes.  Do they have catalytic converters ?  Most buses are polluting and often empty. They, and even the electric trams, constantly stop and start all the traffic, reducing mpg and increasing pollution for a very large number of vehicles surrounding them.  It must all add up to a big impact.

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Removed User 06 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

> definitely not. Offsetting is addressing emissions 10 or 20 years in the future.

Interesting assertion.

If my money goes towards installing solar panels somewhere then I'd have thought that their benefit would kick in in a year or maybe two.

Tree planting would be more gradual of course, starting as taking small amounts out the atmosphere perhaps next year but increasing VB as time goes on.

Assuming that the OP is doing what they can to limit their carbon footprint then offsetting some of the rest of it seems sensible to me.

1
 Tringa 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

I'm very skeptical of carbon offsetting.

Firstly I think it absolves people of any need to think about changing their behaviour - do whatever you want, its OK because trees are planted.

Secondly, it appears to link something that is happening now, eg putting X tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere by driving/flying, with something that won't happen until sometime in the future - the absorption of a similar X tonnes of carbon by the trees that are planted.

It is difficult getting figures for carbon emissions and the amount trees absorb. A couple I found are these - https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/costs/carbon-footprint-calculator/

I used the third calculator to find the amount of C02 emitted by driving 50 miles in a petrol car with a consumption of 40mpg. This came out at 13.58kg.

This site - https://www.greenenergyconsulting.co.uk/treeplanting.php   suggests a broad leaved tree absorbs about 1 tonne of C02 during its lifetime of approx 100 years.

It is difficult to be sure if these figures are correct; the calculation of emission seems very simple and the figure for the tree looks very general.

However, if they are even near to being correct it looks as if a car could produce, in a very short time, the amount of C02 that it would take a tree 100 years to absorb.

Dave

 subtle 06 Feb 2020
In reply to JLS:

> Surely if a few more children die from asthma, it's good for the environment in the long run?

Harsh, but true

 subtle 06 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

> definitely not. Offsetting is addressing emissions 10 or 20 years in the future. We need action NOW! Have you investigated making regular journeys on a e-bike or standard bike, or public transport? There are cycle lanes appearing daily if you are scared to ride your bike on the road.

I have had 25 working days this year, 7 of which I've used a car for - rest have been commuted on by bike

Make personal change / choice - offsetting just puts it on to others to make a change

Removed User 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Tringa:

Yes but once you have done what you can to reduce your footprint why not offset some more. 

When offsetting you'd be thinking about planting 100 trees, not 1.

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 David Riley 06 Feb 2020

My car claims 95g / Km CO2.     I run 10 Km several times a week.   I wonder what that produces ?

 JLS 06 Feb 2020
In reply to subtle:

What's harsh is me staring at the prospect of having to curtail my motoring habits just so people can have all these bloody children.

I don't mind a few, after all I'm not getting any younger, and I'll be needing some to staff a care home soon enough, but it's gotten right out of hand. I think there's case to be made for letting corona virus do it's worst and take out a few infants and some coffin dodgers. Just enough to get us back on an even keel and back onto a more sustainable path.... Say 2 billion?

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 subtle 06 Feb 2020
In reply to JLS:

> What's harsh is me staring at the prospect of having to curtail my motoring habits just so people can have all these bloody children.

Making them is fun though!

> I don't mind a few, after all I'm not getting any younger, and I'll be needing some to staff a care home soon enough, but it's gotten right out of hand. I think there's case to be made for letting corona virus do it's worst and take out a few infants and some coffin dodgers. Just enough to get us back on an even keel and back onto a more sustainable path.... Say 2 billion?

We could just cull those in need of care homes?

 ianstevens 06 Feb 2020
In reply to David Riley:

Know your VO2 max and fancy doing some maths the wrong way? https://www.biologyofexercise.com/images/issues/1224.pdf

 David Riley 06 Feb 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

I've no idea.  Was hoping someone knew an approximate answer. Stack of problems on my desk already.

 wintertree 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Quite aside from the vehicle side - money spent on effective offsetting is money not spent on carbon generating alternatives. 
 

In reply to Andy Johnson:

I think I need to offset all the carbon dioxide I'm breathing out on a daily basis .

Maybe I need to look into this offsetting nonsense. 

;-D

Relax unless your a fossil fuel power plant , it won't make any difference .

1
 Robert Durran 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

> Does anyone here regularly pay to offset the carbon emissions from their fossil-fuel powered vehicle? If so, how? Any thoughts on how effective this is?

Yes, along with flights and home energy use using COTAP (recommended to me by a friend who works in this area as about as good a way of doing it as any). Yes, I know I should really be sitting at home and only going to crags within cycling distance (ie none) but it's better than nothing.

 LastBoyScout 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

I made a one-off payment on another bike for cycling to work instead of taking the car.

 Robert Durran 06 Feb 2020
In reply to JLS:

> I think there's case to be made for letting corona virus do it's worst and take out a few infants and some coffin dodgers. Just enough to get us back on an even keel and back onto a more sustainable path.... Say 2 billion?

There's less than 1.5 billion in China, so lets hope they fail to contain it!

 Dax H 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Tringa:

> I'm very skeptical of carbon offsetting.

> Firstly I think it absolves people of any need to think about changing their behaviour - do whatever you want, its OK because trees are planted.

Carbon offsetting is just a way for the wealthy to feel good whilst cracking on as normal and looking down on the poor folks who can't afford it. 

I don't know how it could be policed but a personal carbon credit could be interesting. Each person has a given amount of carbon they can produce for transport each year. Once you run out your car won't start. 

XXXX 06 Feb 2020
In reply to subtle:

> Harsh, but true

I hate to intrude on this hilarious exchange and I'm sure it's meant as a joke (isn't it?) but please bear in mind that some people reading this will have lost children and will find your off the cuff comments extremely distressing.

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 summo 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Dax H:

> I don't know how it could be policed but a personal carbon credit could be interesting. Each person has a given amount of carbon they can produce for transport each year. Once you run out your car won't start. 

Without some form of national ID system it wouldn't work.

Better to just hammer anyone buying a car with a bigger engine than 1600 or 1800cc and do the offsetting on their behalf. The same with long haul flights, any business or first class travel on planes too. Cruise holidays, they can take a hit too. Use the money to subsidise local green commuter transport. 

 charliesdad 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Practically speaking, it will make no measurable difference...but I’d encourage you to do it anyway! The real solutions to climate change require concerted, government level, global actions. (Doh...). But if each of us takes positive actions to reduce our individual impacts, it sends a message to our rulers about what we think is important, and they MAY act. All the alternatives are worse...

 mutt 06 Feb 2020
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> If you reduce as much as you can, why not offset the rest? 


if you do that then there won't be anything left to offset. Its entirely possible to live without emitting CO2. Its all about how far down that path we can bring ourselves to travel. could you live without a car? yes probably - plenty of people do. Are you willing to?

5
 mutt 06 Feb 2020
In reply to David Riley:

> I'm very dubious that using public transport reduces emissions at all.  Certainly as cars become electric.

> When I'm out running and a train goes past.  I'm often choked by the outrageous volume of unfiltered diesel fumes.  Do they have catalytic converters ?  Most buses are polluting and often empty. They, and even the electric trams, constantly stop and start all the traffic, reducing mpg and increasing pollution for a very large number of vehicles surrounding them.  It must all add up to a big impact.

It won't be long until all diesel trains are converted to Hydrogen. There are such systems in test. Obviously the electric trains are as sustainable as the means of generation, which is getting better every day.

 WaterMonkey 06 Feb 2020
In reply to XXXX:

To be fair you’d never be able to make any joke if you thought like that.

 mutt 06 Feb 2020
In reply to charliesdad:

>  But if each of us takes positive actions to reduce our individual impacts, it sends a message to our rulers about what we think is important, and they MAY act. All the alternatives are worse...

I agree, get out on the street to. XR and Climate Strikes are bringing about change. The politicians wont act unless they think there are votes in it.

 wintertree 06 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

> It won't be long until all diesel trains are converted to Hydrogen

Only until hell freezes over.  Trains are the easiest form of transport to electrify - unless you’re the UK post rail privatisation...   

 mutt 06 Feb 2020
In reply to David Riley:

> I'm very dubious that using public transport reduces emissions at all.  Certainly as cars become electric.

>Most buses are polluting and often empty.

all the buses in Southampton have been upgraded to euro 6 standards which has made a huge difference to the air quality in the city.

and your point about the traffic hold up's caused by trams doesn't make a lot of sense. what would happen if everyone on the tram decided to drive their car instead. I suspect you'd have considerably more gridlock. on the other hand if all the laggards in the car's decided to get into town on the tram? would the city air be cleaner? would there be any traffic jams?

 David Riley 06 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

> It won't be long until all diesel trains are converted to Hydrogen.

> all the buses in Southampton have been upgraded to euro 6 standards which has made a huge difference to the air quality in the city.

So you are saying that buses make a huge difference to air quality in cities unless they are upgraded.

The diesel trains have not been converted at all.  By the time they have the cars will be electric and not polluting.

Buses are currently necessary, but I don't believe they do much to reduce road congestion.

 supersteve 07 Feb 2020
In reply to David Riley:

Remember seeing a slogan on the back of a bus saying 'Take the bus, half the queue'. Ironic that the queue was caused by the bus....

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 jimtitt 07 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

> It won't be long until all diesel trains are converted to Hydrogen. There are such systems in test. Obviously the electric trains are as sustainable as the means of generation, which is getting better every day.


Bit past the testing phase, Alstom have sold 14 to Neidersachsen rail, 27 to Rhine-Main, 15 to SNCF and so on. Stadler have orders for 5 trains and options for 3 more for the Zillertal in Austria. Südostbayern rail are planning the changeover from 2024.

 Dax H 07 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> Without some form of national ID system it wouldn't work.

> Better to just hammer anyone buying a car with a bigger engine than 1600 or 1800cc and do the offsetting on their behalf. The same with long haul flights, any business or first class travel on planes too. Cruise holidays, they can take a hit too. Use the money to subsidise local green commuter transport. 

But that just means those who can afford it carry on as normal. I would love to see a way where money was not the deciding factor. 

1
 summo 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Dax H:

Can only really come from legislation.  Outright ban on cars with engines over 1600cc from 2025 or sooner. Ban hybrids too. 

 Dr.S at work 07 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

>Its entirely possible to live without emitting CO2. 

 

physiologically speaking it really isn’t!

even beyond that point of pedantry, I don’t think a carbon zero life is actually currently possible without some form of offsetting - but I’d love to see your numbers!

 wintertree 07 Feb 2020
In reply to XXXX:

Great if you have just the right number of busses going from within a half mile of where an integer multiple of 60 people are to within half a mile of where all those people want to be, and if you have smaller busses to use instead outside of rush hour.

Small vehicle public transport (not taxis, before someone adds that but more automated) will integrate better with other transport than busses, will cycle more naturally with the rhythm of rush hours and won’t spend most of the time causing queues and nearly wiping out cyclists whilst 80% empty. 

 wintertree 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> physiologically speaking it really isn’t!

A modern combustion car at capacity with 5 people emits similarly CO2 per mile to 5 people walking.  This is simplistic and ignores CO2 embodied in manufacture and in the supply chains of both combustion juice and human food.  

Still, its not a big reach to imagine a future with renewably powered manufacture of renewably powered vehicles leads to vehicles emitting less CO2 per mile than walking or cycling.  Whilst travelling an order of magnitude faster, not requiring a change of clothes and a shower at work, letting you take more equipment with you and so on.  Much more so if autonomy or at least mandatory autonomous breaking systems reduce the risks making small, enclosed, electric personal vehicles much more practical.  I’d love to be able to do my once-a-week one person commute in a modern version not the Sinclair C-5, blending human and electric power, enclosure, safety and a consistent minimum speed of 30 mph.

 Dr.S at work 07 Feb 2020
In reply to wintertree:

All of that is true - but the point I was making was that it is not really possible to have a zero carbon lifestyle - for example even the ‘best’ diets from a CO2 perspective have associated green house gas emissions from one source or another.

i find the strident opposition from some to carbon capture and offsetting worryingly dogmatic.

 jimtitt 07 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> Can only really come from legislation.  Outright ban on cars with engines over 1600cc from 2025 or sooner. Ban hybrids too. 


That sounds fine, 35 years ago BMW were running 1350hp from their 1.5l engines !

 Stein 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Here in Switzerland there is a company Climeworks and they are designing carbon capture solutions. One is installed in a village near where I live. They use the heat from a recycling plant to power the units and the captured CO2 is reused in the greenhouses next to it/sold.

https://www.climeworks.com

They offer a subscription model with which they pay for extra units: https://climeworks.shop/?utm_source=CW-Website&utm_medium=banner&ut...

XXXX 07 Feb 2020
In reply to wintertree:

I don't disagree that more flexible routes and a range of bus sizes is better than empty buses. But the idea that buses cause queues is ludicrous when you compare the volume of traffic in each category of vehicle.

Ffat Boi 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Can you please plant 2000 Oak trees to offset your emissions? In that way I will have enough wood to build me my Pirate ship, should only take about 165 years for the trees to grow to maturity

 summo 07 Feb 2020
In reply to jimtitt:

> That sounds fine, 35 years ago BMW were running 1350hp from their 1.5l engines !

Exactly. A modern 1.6l petrol isn't struggling at 70 or 80mph. There's certainly no need for 2.0 and 3.0 tdis for school runs and a trip to Sainsbury's or Waitrose once a week. 

Shed draggers should be banned too. It's an illogical.conceot for the future. Better to cease now. 

 Dr.S at work 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Stein:

Gosh that’s spendy!!

Post edited at 09:48
 Jon Greengrass 07 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

>  Its entirely possible to live without emitting CO2. 

The human digestive system has evolved to eat cooked food, even the hunter-gatherer lifestyle lived by our ancestors was CO2 positive.

 jimtitt 07 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

You may have missed the point there!

 Tringa 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Removed User:

Agree but, I think the problem is that some see offsetting as a way of not needing to reduce their footprint.

Planting more trees is good but I reckon the average person couldn't afford to buy and have 100 trees planted

The whole problem of climate change is complicated and needs tackling in a number of ways, eg reducing the ever increasing population, reducing meat consumption, doing much more to encourage renewables and many more; and I think carbon offsetting might be seen by some as some sort of panacea.

It will help and its a good idea but I wouldn't like it to be looked on as the way of tackling climate change.

Dave

 David Riley 07 Feb 2020
In reply to XXXX:

>  the idea that buses cause queues is ludicrous when you compare the volume of traffic in each category of vehicle.

Imagine a ten mile length of road without any passing spaces.  It contains 200 cars travelling at 30mph .

The journey takes 20 minutes and road capacity is 600 cars per hour.

Now add a bus that stops for one minute every half mile.

The journey takes 40 minutes and the road capacity is reduced to 300 cars per hour.

This is simplistic and ignores many factors both for and against.  But demonstrates the idea that buses cause queues is not ludicrous.

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 oldie 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Dr.S at work:

>  I don’t think a carbon zero life is actually currently possible without some form of offsetting .... <

Agreed. But a sort of equivalent is having less children, each one less saves a lifetime of pollution and carbon footprint.

XXXX 07 Feb 2020
In reply to David Riley:

It is ludicrous as is your example. There are 300 cars in a queue, but the bus is causing it? What about the 300 cars that are the queue?

A 10 mile road, with no passing places, with bus stops every 800m? Really? And no junctions, houses, turnings or other slow moving vehicles?

But regardless, the roughly 450 people in those 300 cars could fit on less than 10 buses. Then there definitely wouldn't be a queue. 

3
 David Riley 07 Feb 2020
In reply to XXXX:

The cars travel at 30mph. The bus averages 15mph and prevents passing.

1
 Stein 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Yes, but for Swiss people not really. Anyway, this kind of research is definetly important. I wonder why they have not tried applying this on a larger industrial scale.

 mutt 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> >Its entirely possible to live without emitting CO2. 

> physiologically speaking it really isn’t!

> even beyond that point of pedantry, I don’t think a carbon zero life is actually currently possible without some form of offsetting - but I’d love to see your numbers!

ok . bearing in mind that I already have solar panels so that is a sunk carbon cost that has already repaired any climate damage

1. solar panels on the roof provides electricity at no carbon cost

2. Electricity and Gas from 100% sustainable contract (Pure Energy at present). Yes the gas is offset but I'll show below how to not use any of it.

3. cycle everywhere (with an e-bike if necessary)

4. live in a small house, probably in a block. No heating needed due to low housing surface area and modern building standards.

5. Eat vegan and local and don't eat out. (this one is difficult though as diet gets a bit restricted in winter) best answer of course  is to grow your own food.

6. cook on an electric hob or microwave.

So that would be a pretty close to zero CO2 life. However not an easy one to live with. Can't say I miss the car at all.

 Dr.S at work 07 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

pretty close was not your claim - and the vegan diet has a carbon footprint to consider.

Why not offset the remainder?

 Dax H 07 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> Exactly. A modern 1.6l petrol isn't struggling at 70 or 80mph. There's certainly no need for 2.0 and 3.0 tdis for school runs and a trip to Sainsbury's or Waitrose once a week. 

The Mrs's 1.3 Toyota Yaris will sit happily at 70 mph all day long. 

> Shed draggers should be banned too. It's an illogical.conceot for the future. Better to cease now. 

100% agree. 

 wintertree 07 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> Exactly. A modern 1.6l petrol isn't struggling at 70 or 80mph. There's certainly no need for 2.0 and 3.0 tdis for school runs and a trip to Sainsbury's or Waitrose once a week. 

On the other hand they sound shite.  Now a modern 5.2l V8 like the one in the Mustang GT...  That sounds nice.   Oh well.

> Shed draggers should be banned too. It's an illogical.conceot for the future. Better to cease now.

Yup.  Absolutely ridiculous.  Some of the more giant “American RV” style camper vans are appearing over here.  Preposterous. 

 mutt 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Dr.S at work:

fair enough, but I am as weak as the next man. If I offset the rest then I no longer need to try to improve.

I'm as tempted as the next person to get an electric car and offset its manufacturing emission. Bottom line though is that its not good enough.

 Dr.S at work 07 Feb 2020
In reply to mutt:

Each to their own, for me offsetting is one of a mix of things I do to minimise my climate change impact. 

My offsetting is via a tree planting charity, more trees, even if the climate impact is a few years down the track, seems a good thing to me. If affordable carbon capture was available I’d be on it like a shot for the immediate gains.

 Toerag 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

> I wish my budget made an electric vehicle feasible but it doesn't.

Lifetime cost of an EV is less than a ICE vehicle. You just need to work out how to afford the capital, and I'd suspect loan interest will still be less than the money saved in the long run if you do a decent amount of miles.

Perhaps EV purchase loans / subsidy would be an excellent form of carbon offsetting? Instead of paying someone to plant trees you pay someone to change from an ICEV to an EV and not burn the fossil fuel in the first place.

Post edited at 15:18
 Toerag 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Tringa:

>  However, if they are even near to being correct it looks as if a car could produce, in a very short time, the amount of C02 that it would take a tree 100 years to absorb.

.....and if that tree isn't left to rot in a bog and turn to peat then coal the CO2 simply gets returned to the atmosphere again when it dies or is burnt.  Offsetting is simply kicking the can down the road as it's not actually sequestering carbon out of the air permanently. Yes, it might lop the top off 'peak' CO2 levels by temporarily removing CO2 from the air or providing an alternative fuel to fossil fuels, but it's still not the long-term solution.

Post edited at 15:18
 wintertree 07 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

> Offsetting is simply kicking the can down the road as it's not actually sequestering carbon out of the air permanently.

True - but that’s a very useful thing to do because it means we’ll make it to a point down the road.

One distant day I’m sure whatever form our offset carbon is in can be decomposed through pyrolysis to pure carbon and compressed into diamond.  It’s not going back on to the atmosphere then.  But we need to start pulling it out of the atmosphere right now before we’ve got (currently) magic, indefinite sequestration.

In the mean time offsetting forrest can be sequestered for quite some time in one of many non difficult ways as mature trees are removed to promote young growth.

Post edited at 15:28

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