UKH

You can't avoid the link here with cruel treatment of  pangolins and hopefully covid exposes the mink business as unviable in animal welfare terms. Takes humans to be threatened, though, to stop this unnecessarily cruel treatment of animals for human vanity.

As long as they cull them properly and the animal rights imbeciles don’t release them like they did over here. The damned things cause no end of bother. 

In reply to

You can't avoid the link here 

Yes I can 

not only do animal keep me warm but they taste good too 

I am always confused that people can support farming animals for meat (not suggesting you do) but not for their skin. Surely you either support animal farming or you don’t.

How would you normally recommend it?

Roast mink? Mink ragu with tagliatelle?

Yes, but have you ever been on a mink farm? The practises in that industry are as perverse as on industrial turkey farms, which is a level worse than even battery hens.

FWIW I do eat meat and like leather shoes.

CB

I've seen coypu pate in a shop in France.

And I always thought that predators werent the best meat taste wise, nor are they great for the environment m3 CO2 per kg of meat produced.

Stinking mustilid must have its own "goaty" acquired taste I suspect. Indeed, I have heard its a rough as a badgers ass........ 

Think I'll stick to herbivores.... until proven incorrect.

I was always told that we don't eat animals which eat meat and broadly speaking it seems to be true. 

Yet eating bear meat seems acceptable among the US hunting fraternity, possibly because bears are omnivores.

Eating dogs is still popular in parts of Asia and that definitely goes against the grain.

Not to forget our own domestic pigs which will eat as much meat as we are prepared to feed them, I expect, human or otherwise.

Or that the mink farmers don't dump them in advance of a cull (which I wouldn't expect, but was what also happened in the uk, wasn't just meddling kids).

Got to admire the adaptable little gits Recolonise a catchment as fast as you trap them out

For me it's about how an animal is farmed. I eat small amounts of local meat. I get it from a local food cooperative and I can go and visit the farms (one local farm shop is on the farm). I'm ok with eating an animal, or wearing it's skin, if it has been well treated through it's life. And treating them well seems to pose little threat to our health, as far as I can see. Poor farming results in suffering for the animals and a much higher risk of pathogens jumping to humans. 

I'd agree with the "dont eat carnivores" on the whole. Tbh it doesnt make sense when the herbivores are so much easier to raise/ capture and on the whole dont have such big teeth and claws to contend with. Thats without the simple numbers / efficiency considerations.

I'd suggest against the argument that pigs which are grown for consumption, or those running free for hunters are in any real sense carnivores. Omnivore when given the opportunity maybe....

Fish are the general exception to your rule, but the top of the food chain species are also accumulators of toxins which is why pregnant/ breast feeding ladies are advised against tuna, swordfish, shark etc

Heres the but... I suspect the mink are being fed fish (or maybe unwanted male chicks from a poultry farm), but fish are just as easy to get hold of.. so maybe no worse than eating a can of tuna?

Parts of asia & africa will eat predators - thats not an endorsement is it now? Lol. 

No 

Its difficult to defend any animal farming it’s something you accept if you eat and wrap up warm  

thats not to say good welfare should be overlooked  

Ask if on the day of slaughter you can be with the beast as it’s put in the truck and up to death then come back and tell me the above is true 

Minks pie with a glass of port. 

So unfair.

I visited an enormous mink farm in the former Soviet Union. Rows of rusty cages out in the weather. A cruel place run by brutal people.

How do you mean that?

My old house had a brook running behind it & through my land, which resulted in a lot of mink. I trapped them regularly, but just when I thought that there couldn’t be any more, another one came along & proved me wrong. 

Agree with you completely; for me it is about local produced, high welfare products. Yes it is more expensive but we eat less meat but higher quality. 

I have a colleague who is very anti-fur but will eat any meat regardless of how it was farmed. 

Fur is one thing. As this is a climbing/outdoors forum, what about down? 

I appreciate the geese will likely be eaten, but I assume the need for down does drive the industry somewhat.

(Note: I don't agree with farming mink for fur at all!)

I think this may end up with a total cull of captive mink in European countries.

To quote a recent WHO bulletin [1] on the subject - my bold hi lighting.

However, this variant, referred to as the "cluster 5" variant, had a combination of mutations, or changes that have not been previously observed. The implications of the identified changes in this variant are not yet well understood.  Preliminary findings indicate that this particular mink-associated variant identified in both minks and the 12 human cases has moderately decreased sensitivity to neutralizing antibodies. Further scientific and laboratory-based studies are required to verify preliminary findings reported and to understand any potential implications of this finding in terms of diagnostics, therapeutics and vaccines in development.

This is potentially worrying news - it may be that mutation(s) to protein encoding DNA was required to sustain the jump to mink, and that this has created a selective pressure for a change that is perhaps slightly detrimental to the virus' progress in humans but opened up mink.  This is inference on my part not evidenced.  But mutations to coding DNA post a risk to the degree of immunity conferred by both vaccination and infection.

One of the reasons it's a really bad idea to let a virus like this reach widespread prevalence is that you significantly raise the probability of an immunity-breaking mutation.

Right now I would err on the side of caution and cull all farmed mink.  Better safe than sorry.   

[1] https://www.who.int/csr/don/06-november-2020-mink-associated-sars-cov2-denm...

Indeed, and crap quality meat.  I'd rather eat vegetables and nuts than crap quality meat.  Having a race to the bottom - held back only by weak legislation - over meat rearing conditions, quality and price is a situation in the interests of nobody except those profiting from the process. 

Isn't there a difference between 'farm' animals and 'wild' animals. Farming wild animals seems to me to one step further down the line of animal cruelty.

They caused no end of problems in the outer Hebrides where they escaped from farms years ago. They decimated sea bird populations. A trapping scheme was implemented to eradicate them, not sure if it has been successful.

But yes, if they're humanely killed I don't see much difference to other kinds of livestock farming really. It makes no odds to the mink whether it gets eaten, worn or both.

They are like a lot of wild animals, they need to live in the ecosystem that they have evolved to live in. Otherwise, like humans, they are a pest.  

Sounds like they've almost been eradicated from the Hebrides and seabirds have returned in large numbers.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/1701863/lewis-and-harris-mink-cul...

The difference is in the justification for such intensive animal farming? Food versus some vanity clothing product.

I was trying to get a handle on 17million mink. Unless I've gone badly wrong with my maths, laid out end to end it appears equivalent to 7 times the distance from Lands End to John O Groats!?   

That's great.

Working on my grandparents farm as a child and at an abattoir during student holidays led me to the same conclusion as girlymonkey.

Mink farmed for fur are not taken from the wild, they are bred. Boars are farmed, bred in captivity, hardly wild until they escape an re-wild. 

What are the other 4 clusters???

Is there much justification in farming animals for food?

I don't think so. To us in the 21st century it's a choice.

So how do you feel about a native UK mammal, widespread across most of our country, ending up on a small island and being culled because it doesn't fit in with that microscopic ecosystem? 

I thought we'd sorted that one

No but they are still basically wild animals, unlike those that have been selectively bred over generations and had the wildness taken out of them eg sheep.

What, mink?  They aren’t native.  They compete with otters for territory and they were exterminating our water voles.

Hedgehogs.

Clint said that animals need to live in the ecosystem they have evolved to live in. Hedgehogs are mostly adapted to UK life but a program of culling was carried out on South Uist because they were "not native". 

Just how small does a plot of land have to be before it can claim its own ecosystem?

Ah, sorry. My mistake.

I take your point and I’d tend to agree if there were large healthy populations of ground nesting birds but sometimes you have to artificially protect isolated pockets.

I thought the hedgehogs were live trapped and relocated though, or was that somewhere else?

I’m not sure what you mean by “having the wildness taken out of them”? I think most Hill sheep would manage fine as a “wild” population without human intervention. 

That's all well and good for you because you can afford it. People are too quick to jump on their "organic, ethically sourced, locally produced,  high welfare" high horse. The fact is that a lot of people can't afford to opperate like that and if they did then it wouldn't be a sustainable model.

It's a proven fact that there aren't the natural resources for eating meat to be sustainable. We are detached from the food chain, the planet is dying and we will sooner or later all have to change our ways.

Bring on the dislikes: we shouldn't be commercially farming animals.

Sheep, cattle, pigs have been bred from wild populations over centuries and are known as farm animals. They'd quickly be taken out by packs of wolves for example if left to nature. Only the fastest would survive if left to nature and that wouldn't include sheep. How would cows manage if they weren't milked each day as they have been selectively bred to produce more milk than their calf needs. 

Which cows? Take a 10,000 l/year Holstein/Frisian and you would have a point - not so much with a Belted Galloway. 
 

Having chased a few sheep* in my time I’m not so convinced they are all that slow when compared to ‘wild’ animals. 
 

* not for my own pleasure, naturally.

You need to get a sheep dog, bred for the job.

How many deer have you caught, or even seen when their is good cover for them : )

I'm no expert so I don't know about Belted Galloways!

Culled initially but the uproar it caused brought about a change in tactics.

Only managed to catch red deer and muntjac I’m afraid.

Disagree, only eat meat a couple of days a week, it is sustainable.  What is not sustainable is meat twice a day seven days a week.

Good effort.

So as I understand it, the faster ones that get away will be left to breed, but if we wanted to turn them into farm animals we would make sure that it was the slow ones that got to breed, and turn them into the equivalent of sheep.....and as they become slower, we will have to protect them from people like you : ) 

Nah not really - speeds not the issue. You breed for the characteristics you want - so meat/milk/fibre production. for meat animals selecting against speed or strength might end up with something not fit for purpose.

Especially for larger herbivores it’s temperament that’s the thing to select for - If I’m in a yard with a 800kg Bull I don’t want it to be a complete bastard. Of course you can only do so much with ‘nature’ - nurture is really important to, getting animals habituated to people and to animal handling systems. 
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20160912-a-soviet-scientist-created-the-on...

edit to add this link 

Ah yes, well you're into the detail which is beyond me....but I understand where you're coming from.

That’s interesting. All of my running is off-road through fields, and I encounter a lot of cows. About ten years ago there were loads of them that were absolute bastards. There was one in particular who would spot me and give chase. These days they seem much more docile, I wonder if their genetics has been tweaked or maybe they’re drugged up to the eyeballs. 

Depends on the cows. Beef breeds tend to be fairly docile, milkers more aggressive. I don't think many farmers will be doping their herds!

Looks like number of deaths as a result of being trampled by cows (not farmers) is on the increase. If what you say is correct, it might be because runners are getting slower.

I would also guess the increase in deaths caused by cattle is down to  the huge numbers of folk who don't normally visit the countryside.  I live on the NE coast and this summer and right up till the lockdown, we've seen an unprecedented number of visitors - more on most days than we'd get on a normal summer weekend!.

More Coast guard call outs to people trapped by the tide - including a whole family who didn't want to get their feet wet by wading through a foot of water, nor get their shoes dirty by going over some very low, boulder clay to get to the walkway.  Mountain Rescue has also had a large increase of call outs, from people who haven't maps or don't know how to use their mapping apps, or run out of juice on their phone.

Judging by the people walking around my local town & village onto and off the Cleveland Way, lots of them haven't the faintest clue about outdoor clothing or the fact that 'Frequent showers' may mean something different than an indication of the bathroom facilities along the paths.  I also spoke to someone in the Yorkshire Dales and they've said the same thing about their 'new' visitors.

Furlough may have had some financial benefits but its allowed lots of people to visit places in the countryside they wouldn't normally bother visit and therefore haven't the faintest clue about potential hazards - including the cattle!
 

I agree, there was a significant increase in number of younger people walking on the hills in the Lakes, especially during the week, when restriction eased a bit. This continued into Sept and Oct as well. Hopefully this will be a shown to be a good thing in the future, if they learn from their mistakes. 

Litter, of the just leave everything (tent, sleeping bag, food etc.) was my main complaint. Although this was most common within 100 yards of tarmac. Again they will probably be off to festivals/ibiza etc. when they are allowed.

I'll be interested in what the next month brings. The North Lakes didn't get really busy until overnight stays were allowed.

In fairness I think that was the same here once the first restrictions were dropped.

As Ridge says hugely variable - having calves at foot makes a big difference as well, as do how often the cattle see walkers. On a regular run around here I will encounter 3 or 4 groups of cattle - some are super habituated and calm, some behave like psychopathic tiger mothers. 
 

best no to take chances with large livestock - anything over 150-200kg can kill you by accident.

ho hum - this seems to have fully derailed the thread, apologies - mink farmers, what rotters!

What makes you think that that is sustainable? There are a lot of papers that suggest that if the world population all had an even share of meat, the amount that could be sustainably farmed would be a much smaller amount than what you consider sustainable. Around 26 grams of meat, per person, per day. Considering a chicken breast weighs about 150g, you're probably eating at least double what would be sustainable. 

Given that there are a lot (A LOT) of people in the 'developed' world who don't know any better or care, there's a pretty good argument that if you're educated, you should stop eating meat.

Mammals yes, fish no.

CB

I wonder how long it will take to persuade even all western Europe to cease farming mink. And then there's the other countries eg previous reply by "druridge" : "I visited an enormous mink farm in the former Soviet Union...."

I'd never realized there was still such a demand for mink fur considering just Denmark has 17 million mink (human population about 6 million). Presumably many developed countries just don't have an anti-fur lobby and apparently the vast majority of mink fur is produced in China: it seems highly possible that Covid may be in the farms there.

Our family is reluctantly going veggie 5 days a week. Still struggling to get a good veggie repertoire though. Stir fry, risotto, omelettes of various persuasions, and then what?

Burritos or fajitas are my go to. Curries too. Eating plant based doesn't mean sacrificing most meals, just adapting them slightly.

I'm a very lazy cook so lean towards 1-pot dishes. I would highly recommend getting 'The Green Roasting Tin' by Rukmini Iyer. Loads of really easy, and delicious veggie meals. They're split into sections depending on difficulty/prep time so ideal for lazy cooks like me, as I like something you can prepare in 20 mins or less then throw in the oven for half an hour and forget about. 

Chillis are a good winter veg meal and you can make pretty good green curries with spinach, chick peas and sweet potatoes/butternut squash. Just check the curry paste isn't full of fish, if you're being strict.  

Curries,  all kind of bean based mexican style wraps, quiches and pizzas, smoked tofu sushi, potatoes with sour cream, ..... Also, you can play around with different kinds of pasta sauces (olive paste only, various pestos with nuts or pine seeds for protein)

Generally, the more the taste of a dish comes from its spices the less it depends on whether the bulk is meat or veggie, which is why Indian and Thai dishes work so well.

A desperate, gray tofu or soy patty simply cannot compete with a steak BBQd without even pepper and salt. Smother the steak in BBQ sauce and you may as well not bother killing the cow.

For the festive period I have a recipe for a Boeuf Wellington like veggie christmas roast that I will cook for my veggie daughter and her boyfriend, which takes twice the time and effort than the venison haunch I will prepare for the rest of us.

CB