Mask for public transport

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 Flinticus 21 Dec 2021

FFP3 masks

Do these meet mask up requirements on transport or does the presence of a valve render them ineligible?

 Duncan Bourne 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

I've wondered about that too

cb294 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Everybody who wears a mask with a valve to let them infect people more effectively in situations where mask wearing is supposed to protect others needs to be punched in the face, hard.

We have enough of these egotistic a*holes coming into the university hospital (my lab is housed in the dentistry building) that the ban on valves has to be pointed out on large posters.

For our staff on covid wards who need to wear masks for hours on end to protect themselves, or other contexts where the focus legitimately is on protecting yourself, everything that makes their job easier is welcome!

CB

4
 jimtitt 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

FFP2 and 3 masks (the number only denotes the filtering grade) come with valves or not, that's a customer choice. In most countries the valved ones don't count for Covid but in the UK I don't know

 Neil Williams 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

Choose one without a valve, as otherwise you're doing nothing to protect others.

I think they are legally allowed, but it is the height of inconsiderateness.  Valves direct a flow of COVID directly into your face, so are worse than wearing nothing.

Post edited at 17:03
OP Flinticus 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

Got some without a valve.

 Neil Williams 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

Good choice. 

 Bottom Clinger 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

I’m I right in thinking a valveless ffp3 is better than a surgical mask?

 bruxist 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Bottom Clinger:

Not Neil, but offering an answer anyway: yes, by a vast margin.

Even if you & the people around you are wearing poorly-fitting FFP2/3s, the effect on transmission is considerable (though much more dramatic if minor adjustments such as moulding the nosewire to the nose are made).

Most recent paper from the Max Planck: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/49/e2110117118

(if you're unused to reading academic papers, the abstract is nice and clear, and the key illustrations Figures 2 and 6 are well presented & accessible.)

 wintertree 21 Dec 2021
In reply to bruxist:

Results in figure 6 are staggering.

 Neil Williams 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Bottom Clinger:

Yes, massively.  Both for you (where it offers close to 100% protection) and others.

Post edited at 18:38
 Dr.S at work 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

It’s just a shame they are miserable to wear for any length of time.

I did suggest we moved to these at work - quite a few of our staff have had face fit testing for FFP3’s for non-Covid reasons but alas an idea not pursued - in part because it was not clear how to handle people who failed the fit test.

1
 bruxist 21 Dec 2021
In reply to wintertree:

You can see why Germany and Austria have had FFP2 mandates for so long - there's been a steady trickle of this kind of evidence coming out of the Max Planck & elsewhere for a long while. The great pity to my mind is that there's been no effort in the UK to get this sort of message across, even though the evidence is confirming SAGE's existing view of NPIs. And this lack of effort is despite SAGE having been repeatedly advising it since at least Jan 2021, pleading for a public emphasis on quality & fit.

On re-reading all the older EMG/SPI-M/SPI-B advisories, there's one stand-out peculiarity. Their recommendations never refer to FFP standards, but plead for some awareness campaign over quality standards & suggest the BSI kitemark be used. It's almost as if there's some reason they can't refer to FFP standards - which of course, they can't anymore, FFP being an EU standard, and UK-based labs no longer being notified bodies for the purpose of approving FFP-certified PPE.

 Dave B 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

I prefer an ffp3 to my surgical mask tbh. However they are running low on the one that are really good, and the alternatives are less comfortable. 

 Bottom Clinger 21 Dec 2021
In reply to bruxist:

Thanks, and good. Bought some for work and will start wearing them. 

 mik82 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

As above, don't buy valved masks for covid purposes. They're ok for sanding down paint.

I've bought some 3M Aura FFP3 masks for work in order to try and avoid isolating over Christmas (NHS - we're still provided with paper masks, no sign of anything else) and they're quite comfortable but expensive to keep wearing daily. 

 girlymonkey 21 Dec 2021
In reply to mik82:

I have ordered some of the FFP2 ones (without a valve). I get that they are meant to be single use, but as you have noted they are expensive. Do you think that multi-use of one of those is better than using and washing fabric ones or using a fresh surgical mask each day? 

My plan is to use them for instructing work, but stick with the reusables for shopping etc. I think in my care work I will probably have to use the standard issue disposables, but if I can use the FFP2 in my higher risk settings then I reduce the risk of taking anything into the care home.

 bruxist 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Bottom Clinger:

Glad to hear it.

As others have mentioned, 3M Aura FFP3s are great in terms of protection, but they probably aren't quite what you think of when asking for masks (or for Flinticus' original request for something usable on public transport): they have headbands rather than earloops, and aren't reusable.

As far as I know there's only one UK company that makes reusable FFP2s (though of course the masks themselves are manufactured in China) and that's Versarien. They're very good at sending their certs through quickly so that you can check their validity with the relevant notified body.

Using FFP2NRs (the NR stands for 'Not Reusable') gets expensive quite quickly so you might prefer FFP2Rs (Reusables) for work.

We have a room full of boxes of Draeger German-made FFP2NRs at work, an LA. They've been there for a year, and nobody is allowed to use them, per management instruction. I've spent a lot of this year giving my public-facing colleagues FFP2s or KF94s to use at work, and nobody has got covid except all the members of the management team. Schadenfreude? Bestimmt.

 Ger_the_gog 21 Dec 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

You could wear a surgical type mask over or under a valved Ffp* mask, or modify the valve housing to hold something over the valve that will filer the exhaled air (such as a square of material cut from a surgical mask).

Hopefully though, the fact that more people are moving to proper, filtering masks (at long last!) - whether valved or not - will mean fewer people get infected. And if they're not infected, they can't pass it on to others.

Edit: 

Here's what the CDC say about valved masks. They provide more protection to others (not the wearer) than you may think:

"My N95 filtering facepiece respirator has an exhalation valve. Is that okay? Will it protect both me and others?"

"Yes, an N95 filtering facepiece respirator will protect you and provide source control to protect others. A NIOSH-approved N95 filtering facepiece respirator with an exhalation valve offers the same protection to the wearer as one that does not have a valve. As source control, findings from NIOSH research suggest that, even without covering the valve, N95 respirators with exhalation valves provide the same or better source control than surgical masks, procedure masks, cloth masks, or fabric coverings. In general, individuals wearing NIOSH-approved N95s with an exhalation valve should not be asked to use one without an exhalation valve or to cover it with a face covering or mask. However, NIOSH-approved N95 respirators with an exhalation valve are not fluid resistant. Therefore, in situations where a fluid resistant respirator is indicated (e.g., in surgical settings), individuals should wear a surgical N95 or, if a surgical N95 is not available, cover their respirator with a surgical mask or a face shield.  Be careful not to compromise the fit of the respirator when placing a facemask over the respirator."

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html

​​​​

Post edited at 23:14
 Ridge 21 Dec 2021
In reply to bruxist:

> We have a room full of boxes of Draeger German-made FFP2NRs at work, an LA. They've been there for a year, and nobody is allowed to use them, per management instruction.

You do have to wonder at the mentality of these people, (assuming there are no issues with the masks themselves).

I'd just help myself TBH.

 ben b 22 Dec 2021
In reply to girlymonkey:

FFP2 and 3 masks can be reused if left alone for a week in a warm dry environment.  To oversimplify, the antiviral properties are primarily electrostatic rather than "bulk filtration" - the virus sticks to the mask exterior. That's why soaps and detergents ruin them. Time deactivates the virus, eventually (again not entirely true but less viable virus over time, so eventually works). .

There is evidence to show that a mask that has been worn for a few hours can be put in a paper bag and left for a couple of days. It's nowhere near as good but in emergencies, it's probably OK. It doesn't work for reducing risks of moulds and bacteria though. 

Good resources here https://www.n95decon.org 

b

 girlymonkey 22 Dec 2021
In reply to ben b:

oh, great information! Thanks!


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