UKH

I'm almost in tears thinking about what that poor kiddie might have gone through. The only thing that can be said is that her poor parents might at least get closure.

Totally agree. 

Whatever the circumstances of her death, a cadaver dog apparently found traces from behind the sofa in the apartment from which 15 of 19 elements could be linked to Madeleine, I'm sure her parents loved her dearly and still do.  

When was that? I assume fairly soon after the disappearance

What would those "elements" have been?

You know she died Tim?  You’re making me suspicious now...

I was under the strong impression that a cadaver dog would only pick up on decomposing flesh? Different smells, so she would have had to be there a while. It is why search dogs are used in the initial instance for finding lost people, and cadaver dogs in the later stages.

http://www.cadaverdog.net/gerry-and-kates-reaction-to-sniffer-dogs-hitting-...

{ ''In a September 3, 2007 email, Lowe stated the swab taken from behind the sofa produced an “incomplete DNA result”.

However, Lowe continued: “All of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann”.

Lowe said his testing of the swab from behind the sofa could not determine what kind of bodily fluid made up the DNA sample.

But, as would be later noted by the handler of sniffer dog Keela, his canine was only trained to alert to human blood, nothing else.'' }

I have no expertise on anything involved in what is in the link, or finding missing people, I just googled and this came up. 

I imagine that it's possible that she was killed in the apartment and removed before her parents returned to check on her.

NB: In reply to mypyrex; My memory had jumbled something about elements of a sample being found in the boot of their hire car.

Ah, blood detection dog, not cadaver dog.

There was a cadaver dog, too, which barked in the bedroom she was in, and the apartment.

Call me cynical but is all the Madeline stuff in the news not just a Mail/Express squirrel to take some heat off Johnson? 

PS, joke noted.

It was cunning detective work  

Possibly. A friend joked about this ten days ago when Cummings was the story. He was picturing press offices and spin doctors desperately trying to find a Maddie story or something about Jordan’s tits exploding 

Didn't a dog also indicate on the McCann's hire car that they rented like three weeks after her disappearance? 

"The police removed the silver Renault Scenic the McCanns had hired three weeks after the disappearance,[148] and on 6 August Keela and Eddie were taken to an underground car park opposite the PJ headquarters in Portimão, where 10 cars were parked, 20–30 feet apart, including the McCanns' and Robert Murat's.[149] Eddie, the cadaver dog, gave an alert outside the McCanns' car by the driver's door.[150][142] The next morning Keela alerted to the rear driver's side inside the boot (trunk) and the map compartment in the driver's door, which contained the ignition key and key ring. When the key ring was hidden underneath sand in a fire bucket, she alerted again, as she did when the bucket was moved to a different floor of the car park.[151] Almost immediately the Portuguese press began running stories that Madeleine had died inside apartment 5A." 

Apparently?  I do recall that a whole lot of increasingly sensationalist and often malicious nonsense was published, much of it extremely distressing to the McCanns.  I really hope that this new development brings some closure and isn’t another false trail.  Surely they have suffered enough?

In reply:

A terrible tragedy, it must be beyond bearing for the family. I hope it's resolved very soon, and that Madeline is found alive

However, the parents have to accept some responsibility IMO - their kids were left alone asleep in their ground-floor apartment, while the parents ate at a restaurant about 170 feet away. The front door was locked but the patio doors at the back could only be locked from the inside, and the McCanns left them closed but unlocked. Kate entered through the unlocked patio doors to check on the kids during their restaurant meal. The parents had decided not to employ a babysitter because they didn't want to leave them alone with a stranger

I'm sorry but I would never and have never left my kids alone in a flat/house while I ate in a restaurant - let alone in an unlocked ground-floor flat

For anyone interested, there's a plan of the apartment here:

http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/id8.html

Understatement. 

Further information - why didn't the parents leave the patio doors locked, then use the front door key to enter the apartment when they wanted to check on the kids, and then relock the front door on the way out? The Guardian reported (link follows):

"Earlier that week, the McCanns had used a key to go in through the front door next to the children's bedroom but, worrying the noise might wake the children, they began using the patio doors, leaving them unlocked."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/apr/11/madeleinemccann

See Dave’s post above- “Surely they have suffered enough?” They’ve had 13 years to contemplate these issues - they don’t need people being holier-than-thou all over the internet. 

It's their other kids I feel for. They've had a lifetime of their selfish parents trying to clear their conscience. 

Do you think anyone needs reminding, least of all the McCanns?

You have no grounds for accusing the parents of being selfish or trying to clear their conscience. 

I'm not going to get drawn into a long winded debate. If you prioritise drinking and eating out with friends over adequate supervision of your kids then in my book you are selfish, end of. Less well off parents have been dragged through the courts for lesser offences. 

Millions of parents around the world either eat earlier with their kids, you know as a family, or they take turns socialising with friends as the other stays in and parents. 

I'm not really concerned for the parents suffering at all, only the preventable death of Madeline and the lifelong suffering of the other kids. 

Yes, truly aweful.

Am I right in thinking that the tabloid press have changed her name to Maddy?

Echos of the James Bulger case with him becoming Jamie. 

Apologies if I've got this wrong.

Christ. If you have no compassion or empathy for the McCanns then your 'concern' is just so much posturing, worth jack sh*t.

For the record, I have probably left my kids in similar circumstances - I won't say identical, but close enough. I don't go on holidays to be paranoid about child abductors round every corner, and now I have grandchildren I'm not going to start.

As you say, "I'm not going to get drawn into a long winded debate." All parents make small fleeting judgements that with hindsight increase risk to their children. In nearly all cases there are no consequences. I prefer to err on the side of kindness and forgiveness rather than uninformed judgemental condemnation. 

It's nothing to do with staying in to prevent abduction. It's the little normal parenting things, very young child wakes up with a nightmare, in an unfamiliar room and the half cut parents aren't even in the same building! There is no excuse, they left 3 young kids home alone. That's not the same as when you run in and out the house to get something from say the car whilst a toddler sleeps in a cot, they were off out on the piss. 

I feel sorry extremely for the McCanns while also being critical of their parenting. My daughter was the same age as Madeleine at the time so I had a good reference point. This wasn’t a fleeting miscalculation where a parent lost sight of a child for a few seconds and tragedy struck, it was much more deliberate and sustained than that. However, they are in a dreadful situation and I hope these latest developments bring some closure for them. 

One thing about this whole terrible saga that has pissed me off from the very beginning is self-righteous people going on about how they left their children and are therefore to blame.

Are you a parent? I have never done what they did, but like every parent there are times when I've been less than perfect, and put my daughter in a situation where if an incredibly unlikely event had happened I'd have been open to this sort of criticism. We take risks, all the time, that's life. The risk they took was tiny, we all take bigger risks with our children's lives all the time. Madeleine died because she was murdered by a paedophile (we think), not because of poor parenting.

Yes I'm a parent and yes you have to make calculated decisions all the time. You run out the house for 2 mins to get the washing because it's started to rain. You park outside a paper shop and run in and out for 1 min. Or now as they age how much you allow them to roam on their own. That's not the same as going on the piss for consequitive nights with very young kids home alone in unfamiliar surroundings, it just can't be justified. 

Poor parenting?! If your child dies unnecessarily it's the pinnacle of poor parenting. 

It's seems quite possible he watched them doing the same thing every night, timed how often they came back. By their nature many evil psychopathic folk are extremely calculating. 

As opposed to prioritising armchair self-righteousness  

Clearly.

I think the risk they took with regard to what happened was tiny, but there were a number of other, more statistically significant risks involved in doing what they did. If they’d controlled those risks it wouldn’t have happened. Anyway, like I say I have a lot of sympathy for them going through the most unimaginable pain and I’m leaving it at that now. 

Yet you too are judging - judging me all over the Internet. You could ask yourself, Bob, have you ever / never judged anyone

What I wrote is relevant to the incident / to the crime / the situation

ALSO, what the parents did is illegal in Portugal. It is called child abandonment, and there are good and clear reasons (broader than this case) why it is illegal

What do you hope to achieve by going over all of this?

Nothing. This is the Off Belay forum, for "General non-climbing discussion", and I'm merely giving my opinion - like most people on this forum, and in the Pub forum

Just like I think god-damn-Carol Baskins killed her husband and fed him to the tigers, I think the parents killed Madeline.  The recent pod cast onthe subject is very convincing

That's what I thought.

It was seventeen years ago. The child is almost certainly dead. People in this thread (and elsewhere) picking at the scabs of the parent's decisions that night seems grotesque to me. Have people really nothing better to do?

clearly not- we are all on an internet forum...

I'm trying to understand why it's taken so many years to get to this particular suspect when they have mobile phone records of a call in the vicinity around that time.

I understand they have had hundreds of lines of enquiry, but surely this sort of location evidence should have bumped him right up the list of priorities?

well i knew about him about a year ago when i listened to the podcast- so presumably so did the police.  maybe something new has come to the surface.  A cynic might suggest that the Parents have run out of money and needed a boost of publicity.

For the record, I can't understand why so much time and money has been spent on this investigation when it hasn't been on other disappearances, while at the same time hoping that they do eventually find Madeline* and someone is convicted of her disappearance.

* Alive for preference, although it's unlikely in the extreme. If she is found alive, reuniting her with her family would be another massively traumatic event for them all.

This kind of whataboutery is merely a deflection. You invited criticism by posting a critical comment that you would know could invite such criticism. 

You could ask yourself, Bob, have you ever / never judged anyone

Of course, but I restrict it to people who invite criticism. Politicians, people in power, people who make provocative comments on internet forums... Not people who are, regardless of our opinions about them, still victims. 

My understanding was that the Portuguese police considered charges but decided not to proceed. But this is irrelevant to the particular aspect we are discussing here. 

If they did why would they keep pursuing the case and not just let it die out so they get away with it?

The more publicity they get, the more the police keep investigating the more chance they'd have of being found out surely? 

Mos of the evidence has led me to believe she died accidentally in the apartment and the parents covered it up but campaigning to keep the case open doesn't fit.

Same same. They're guilty of something.

They got trapped in the initial lie. It's worked so far. They make money from it. They're both psychopaths. 

pick one

I find this line  of thought a little troubling.

Isn't it the same as saying that a girl who wears short skirts and revealing blouses has to take some responsibility if she gets sexually assaulted or raped?

'They're guilty of something.'

We all are. Other than that, you've bought into clickbait filth; the sort of stuff that scum 'reporters' routinely and consciously make up - usually after a few drinks - and punt into the public domain. They make a fortune  because there's enough resentful thickos out there who would rather believe the worst of everyone in the public eye, particularly if they are better off,  than realise that it's themselves that have the problems.

Did you listen to the podcast or watch the documentary recently?  I don't think its clickbait any more than any other in depth review of anything is. so no, i havent.

It was my impression that the tabloids routinely protect the parents and spout the tale that Madaline is still alive and her parents are desperate to find her.

No, not the same.

More like this..

If you left your car unlocked with a laptop on the front seat would you take some responsibility if it got nicked?

Do you know the definition of and defences against libel?

...in my opinion

Hmm, think I'm going to go off track and possibly get a bit contentious here. My thinking...

A girl in that situation, if she was aware that she was going somewhere where there was an increased risk of being sexually assaulted or raped, then I would say that she should have to take some responsibility, simply because she would have knowingly put herself into a more dangerous situation.

But, please note that's totally different from blame. However "provocative" her clothing, she would still be 0% to blame.

Also, it think it's totally unacceptable that girls should be at more risk in some situations because they're wearing more revealing clothing. Unfortunately, something being wrong doesn't stop it from being a reality.

That's a truly ridiculous comparison and I'm being polite. A person should be free to wear what they wish. (Unless of course you go to a uniform obsessed school).

A parent has responsibilities until their child is deemed by the law in that country to be legally responsible for their own actions. Getting pissed and having child free meals out even when you don't have child care aren't part of a parents duties. 

Ok. Im being drawn in, let's turn this on its head. 

What if there was a fire in the apartment? Does it have smoke detectors, do they work? Are they locked in and can't escape etc.. 

Where would blame lie? 

You keep saying things like, “half cut”, and “on the piss”.  Is this factual or speculation?  I understand that they were in a tapas bar eating 50 metres away.  In a large house this could be the same distance as the end of the garden no?  I expect the McCanns had a big house.  It looks from the map like the bar is basically on the complex.

Genuine question by the way.  I have no idea whether they were drunk and can’t be bothered to look it up.  I expect there are varying accounts but I’m conscious that unfounded allegations of alcohol use can add a bit of colour.

People are allowed a few drinks on holiday, this idea that they were out of their faces seems just an unattributable slur. And the 'child free' bit is really a question of degree. If the child was asleep in a room next door would that be acceptable? Of course it would. If they had left the compound and gone to a restaurant in town would that? Of course not. Personally I think leaving a settled child sleeping a 100 metres or so - and checked up regularly - comes within the marginal/acceptable bracket.  (I'd certainly be happy to do it if I had a child alarm which I had tested  - I can't remember whether they did or not.)

I do think that part of the Portuguese police response may have been based on not understanding cultural differences. I believe that Portugese, like much of the rest of Europe, take it for granted that children accompany their parents when they eat out, and to not do so might imply some sort of neglect. In the UK that's much less common, most parents routinely dine out without their children.

I wouldn't rely on that without some solid factual basis for my opinions. 

As I said....Podcast. Documentary. 

Re the McCanns it’s impossible to imagine what they’ve gone through and will continue to. However it’s certain that if they’d been unemployed folk from Easterhouse they’d have been treated very differently by the press, their remaining kids would have been removed, and they’d be treated as criminals.

That wouldn't make it right though, would it?

Worth a read....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chavs-Demonization-Working-Owen-Jones-ebook/dp/B00...

I thought this was supposed to bring closure. All it seems to have done is drag up the same arguments that went round and round at the time.

Give it a rest, people.

We're actually going on holiday to Praia da Luz on holiday (if it still goes ahead) and staying in an apartment just a short walk from the Ocean Club.

Will be interesting to actually see it myself - although I'm by no means going as any sort of disaster tourist.

Really? Why do you claim that?

Are you suggesting that the McCann's should have known Portugal was an increased risk of child kidnappers / murderers?

This might win as the most self righteous statement I've yet to read on here. I'm really glad that you managed to find the rule book. I didn't, but still managed to raise two healthy children by "winging" it. That said, its still a case of "there but for the grace of god go I".

I guess that could be looked at in different ways, in that poorer people or people from 'the lower classes' (it feels jarring to write that) should be looked upon more leniently, as much as her parents getting off too lightly in that sense.

The authorities in Portugal did consider bringing charges of child neglect against the McCanns, I'm not aware of the thinking behind them deciding not to.

I don't want to speculate on the details of this case. But I have one child, and I would NEVER have left him alone at 3 years old in a holiday apartment for any reason if I couldn't avoid it. 

I know people who would NEVER allow their kids to walk to school on their own. Doesn't actually make them better parents.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with leaving a 3 year old alone. 

If you're proven wrong I hope you'll make an apology somewhere.  That is a strong statement to make, based on a bit of internet what-if-ery

Really?  If I was interested in abducting children (which I'm not) then I think I'd be inclined to hang around newsagents waiting for irresponsible selfish parents to do exactly that. 

if this turns out to be the guy, the polis need investigating for institutional incompetence..

She was 4, I gather, but the point you are making is a false equivalent, a cousin teaches philosophy, and that there is what you're doing.

Desist with your false equivalence...

PS

Anti-Vaxxers and Priests can be vary convincing, but it's still bullshit.

It's been said that syringes were found around where they were staying, which is a falsehood, and that where the cadaver dog alerted in the apartment and their hire car after she went missing that a DNA match was found, which isn't true, it was an incomplete match,(15 out of 19 elements IIRC, but still not a match). I agree that it all seem rather odd, but there's no actual evidence to point to them doing that, just things which if looked at in a certain way might suggest guilt or attempts to hide something, some of which could be annoyance at being suspected. 

Quite sobering for me was an ex detective saying that given that her right pupil 'bleeds down' into her eye in any pictures - there's a little line which trickles down from the centre of her eye, that he felt that she'd have been killed soon after being taken for whatever reason, because of how recognisable she would be because of that.

Edit: As more of a comment on human nature rather than her parents, I almost think that because she was abducted, there's a lot of defence of her parents, where as if she'd pulled on an iron and got killed, or some other kind of mishap, something more run of the mill, I wonder if people might be less forgiving, if it was something which 'Could obviously happen' as some might put it.

Question for lawyers/police?

I am surprised that the German police are releasing so much information about the suspect, and in particular the history of his convictions. If he is charged with Madeline's abduction or murder, presumably the British would want to apply for his extradition to stand trial in the UK as the victim is a UK citizen? If so, wouldn't it be argued by his defence team that he could no longer get a fair trial, given that so much has been disclosed about him? As I understand it juries are never told about an accused's previous record of convictions for this very reason.

Ahhh, but it wasn't meant to be an equivalence, but to demonstrate that there are different levels of tolerance for risk in parenting and I suspect that the McCann's had weighed up the risk of leaving their kids sleeping in a room (that probably didn't have an iron in it) while they ate 50 yds away as acceptable while clearly others would not. My point is that those who would not aren't necessarily better parents. 

The loss of Madeleine in such a horrific and heart wrenching way seems an excessively cruel punishment for what, on that day, proved to be an error of judgement, where on most other days it would not have.

not enough evidence to convict? (he's up for parole)

nor any calpol no doubt..

'where as if she'd pulled on an iron and got killed, or some other kind of mishap, something more run of the mill'

I'd agree an iron probably  wouldn't be in her room, it was just an example of something more common, as I'd outlined pretty well I thought? Yes, all parents exist on a spectrum of parenthood and being 'a good parent', I dare say even those at the same point on it likely make different decisions about some things. 

I wholly agree.

Yeah, but surely they are queering their (or any other police force's) chances of a conviction by exposing his previous convictions prior to any trial?

dunno. maybe they had to from Spiegel leaks?

He's not been charged.

German courts don't have jurors, don't know about Portugal. 

It was in Portuguese jurisdiction, no suspect in UK to be extradited so no role for a court in UK.

I believe the German system is quite liberal on press reporting - so long as there is no presumption of guilt by the media. 

It’s changed, the prosecution in the UK can introduce evidence of bad character ( previous like offences / convictions) at the trial. 

Well first off the suspects previous convictions are a matter of public record. And in the UK previous convictions can be raised during a trial ( including those of witnesses).

I'd probably say "can sometimes" be raised. The default position is they won't be. Application can be made for relevant convictions to be brought up, but the judgement had to be that they are more probative than prejudicial. 

Bringing in the character of witnesses can also happen, but it then opens the door to the defendants pre convictions being brought up -eg if you accuse a witness of being a thieving smackhead then the likelihood is that the prosecutor will then start discussing your precons for shoplifting and drug dealing.....

As I wrote, "can".

I was allowed to walk back from school on my own through the village at that age - I  wasn't 5 until the summer term of my first year and after a term or so at school we walked unaccompanied, and in short trousers in winter!

biggest problem was older children pinching things like hats and scarves.

different times ...

I’ve read so much about this case. I worked in child protection including during the time this case took place and in the same local child protection team, I can say that as a matter of public record.

They were investigated by child protection teams. They were subjected to the same rules as any parent. It was clearly reported at the time that they were.