UKH

My news feed is full of pictures of wild fires innthe peak, beaches and beauty spots left looking like a landfill site.

I simpily can't understand how people can justify that kind of behaviour, how people can think it acceptable to behave in such a manner. It seems far worse than normal, and has the feel of a nation behaving like some binging 18 year old allowed in clubs for the first time.

What can be done to alter this behaviour? Policing isn't really possible due to lack of numbers. All I can think of is drumming it into childeren at primary school and maybe a tv advert campaign?

Open Wetherspoons- job done

There's someone's pocket I'd rather see empty...

We have had Keep Britain Tidy and Tidy UK campaigns for ages but nothing seems to resonate with a sizeable chunk of our population. Young kids seem to be quite environmentally aware but many adults litter with impunity. 

Whenever I have cycled on the continent, I have generally been struck by how clean their roadside verges and hedgerows are compare to ours.  Our layby litter problems are made worse because councils  don't empty bins regularly but that is no excuse for people who presumably live surrounded by piles of crap in their own homes too.

Unfortunately there is a lot of scruffy scum in the country, decent folks don't come across them that often because they are in cheap chain pubs and holiday in cheap all inclusive Spanish resorts.

That is denied them at the moment so our country side and beaches are suffering instead. 

Obviously not all chain pub goers are scum and not all cheap all inclusive holiday goers are scum before anyone has a go about generalising. 

Yea but even with schemes like that I don't remeber ever having good manners such as this drilled into me by anyone other than my parents. Which is how it should be, however I think the message should be reinforced in schools etc...

Took this photo this morning. Oak tree, burnt all the way thro. The first storm and its  down. There had been a fire built at its base  many years ago. A massive beech tree already down by same method, and another one in a bad way. The woods I walk through, rumour had it, were going to be closed by the council coz of the hoards and people parking and blocking drives. Drives me mad

There's similar sights in a park/woodland just next to my house, there was also a grassland fire in a rare grass meadow there last year, due to a bbq I think.

we need more people with this taxi driver's attitude: youtube.com/watch?v=lh5IkmW3_LY&

We should all get off our high horses about chavs, scumbags etc. This is the opposite of the solidarity needed to bring down the infection rate. First they split the nations of the United Kingdom then they split the regions, then they split us by class. Don't buy into this shit.

Blame resides with the government and their utter deriliction of duty.

F*ck them and the populist horse they rode in on.

I did that sort of thing when I was a kid. Not proud now.

Point the finger where it's deserved.

Im pretty happy looking down on chavs who litter and burn things, thanks. I, and other tax payers, end up paying for it. 

That looks very set up. One might almost call it fake.

What proportion of your tax payments do you think are spent on clearing up after 'chavs'?

Stop this nasty dialogue right now.

I somehow doubt that the sort of people who don't give a shit regarding how they leave the countryside (and indeed anywhere else) would give a shit about their fellow man (or woman).

The idea that they are somehow left wing Socialists rather than Tories is a joke.

As for solidarity with anybody - these people are evidently only concerned about themselves, in the here and now, and as such I would be more inclined to believe that, if they voted at all, it would more likely be to support UKIP or NF rather than Labour.

How you've got likes for this kind of bigotry is quite beyond me and very depressing.

UKC's demographic now seems to be entitled c*nts.

Well yes they're a bunch usless populists arseholes, but i believe the word chav may have been coined by a pre-pubescent school child sometime in the late 90's or early 2000's. More over I didn't mention chavs or scumbaggs, I simply mentioned education.

Don't give a shit how they leave the countryside? Vast areas of country have been laid waste or f*cked up entirely by uncaring powerful landowners using subsidies.

This is such a class issue. I'm a privileged middle class guy with a big garden living in the countryside. Not a precariously employed person in a flat or small urban house. I'm still pretty weirded out. I can imagine not giving a f*ck if I didn't think anyone gave a f*ck about me.

I'm not so sure it is a class issue it's more like people taking the world for granted, one could argue that littering is no worse than someone who is middle class jetting off half a dozen times a year, using a Range Rover to drop the kids off at school or buying excessive amounts of flown in food. It's all action without any regard given to consequence.

Upper, Middle or lower class see their peers behaving in one disrespectful way or another and this legitimises that behaviour.

I  don't know about the general picture but I've seen a lot more turds and toilet paper on / at the side of Pyrenean footpaths than I've ever seen in the Peak.

I think you may have proved my point. Disrespectful behaviour is disproportionately damaging depending on who you are and on how much economic or social power you have.

Edit:

So why so much condemnation directed at certain demographics?

I think you're trying to escalate this into a wider issue. I mentioned litter and fires, and questioned the best course for a solution.

In my last post i merely pointed out that people copy their peers behaviour disrespectful behaviour regardless of class, money just gives someone different ways of showing it.

Your examples of distasteful behaviour among the Range Rover set may have been immoral from some standpoints but they weren't illegal. Litterring, flytipping and lighting fires in breach of local regulations are a different matter.

I've been thinking this recently too. The peak has been a disgrace - we tend to take a rubbish bag with us whenever we go out at the moment, be it walking or climbing.

In the US they have the Leave No Trace campaign. It's a really well known slogan and you'll often hear it outdoors. I wonder why there doesn't seem to be anything like that here? I believe Leave No Trace (I think it's trademarks) does exist here, but I've never come in contact with it.

Something being missed in the various awareness campaigns that have been run to date.

This has feck all to do with "class", whatever that is these days, and everything to do with selfish ignorance. 

Guilty because I think it is a wider issue.

And disproportionate effects that are not condemned proportionately.

Really? What's the difference between a 'chav' barbecue left burning in a car park and a subsidised grouse moor owner 'controlled' burning several thousand acres every year?

As Tom V pointed out to me one is morally wrong the other legally wrong. As for the grouse moor yes I'd rather see a more natural bio diverse moorland, a BBQ in woodland though threatens something more precious and ancient than managed moorland. I'm not defending either but at least there are laws against one of these wrongs.

Small  but non zero. 

There is nothing nasty about being critical of people who trash places and are generally obnoxious.  Leaving litter, burning things etc is pure lazy selfishness and highly antisocial. There is no excuse for it. 

One is controlled and legal, the other isn't. 

In case you are wondering, I have little but disdain for many moor owners too. 

These people are mostly from a generation which is, or should be, the most environmentally aware of us all.

Unfortunately they simply don't care or understand the contradictory nature of what they do.  Sort of;  "Save the planet, and lets 'ave a party"

Is the Leave No trace campaign genuine or just paying lip service? Does it cover bolts on mountain crags, which is usually the point where the principle takes a back seat.

So hey ho lets go and dump our working class crap in some middle class guys large garden. Its Ok he loves the working class and he's told us the countryside has already been trashed by uncaring powerful landowners (upper class). We know our place and we will always obey our betters.

Agreed, but the sentiment is nice

Given that it's not climbing specific no, I don't believe it has anything to do with bolts on crags. It's about littering and education, I don't see how bolts fit into that? 

It's a pretty huge campaign (which actually has overflowed to the UK, there are various courses available to become a Leave No Trace trainer, you get 2 MTA CPD points for it but beyond that I'm not sure what you're supposed to do with it).

It's also lip service though.

My point is that in the US, the LNT campaign has been hugely successful, most outdoorspeople have heard of it and a good percentage adhere to it (unfortunately you can never account for a**holes...). I don't think any UK campaign has been that consistently successful but I would really like to see it happen!

How do you know this? 

Very good, you should write an essay.

How close to zero? Pretty bloody close I would suggest. Certainly nothing to get your knickers in a twist about.

Give them a break. Whoever 'they' are. In a very unequal society, those at the disadvantaged end will not feel any sense of responsibility or commonality of purpose with all us comfortable people. I predict a riot.

Big difference in audience I would suggest.

Between American outdoor folk and ours.

I'm sorry I can't leave this unanswered. How old are you? What advantage have you had over your parents and grandparents in terms of material gain? Free university education? A house you can buy?

I did 'ave a party' myself as I had a vague idea that the future would be better and eventually I'd find a proper job, house and all that shit. I did.

Younger people are environmentally aware, aware of what a f*ck up they've inherited.

From us.

We should all be boycotting Wetherspoons, after his response to paying his staff and suppliers,during lockdown

I think the entitled c*nts are the ones dropping litter where they like, leaving BBQs burning to set fire to hundreds of acres of moorland or forest, and generally not giving a shit about anyone but themselves.

As are the grouse moor owners: see, being an entitled c*nt crosses class barriers.

I haven't got a clue what you're on about or what my age has to do about it.  ~Nor do I see the relevance of anything else you mentioned.

But please tell me this: if younger people are so environmentally aware, why are they the people who often trash the countryside?    I have recently watched videos taken from two separate locations within 10 miles from where I live and both involved massive clear ups - and both made the national news.   ALL the participants were under 30 and left piles of rubbish.  For someone else to clear up.  

Responsible people clear up their mess.  

In what way isn't dumping litter selfish ignorance ?

And in what way can it be about "class", even if you could define "class" these days.  I suppose you could have a fair stab at "lower class" based on behaviours.

I live in Bournemouth and I can tell you with a certainty that a big. Proportion of my council tax is used to clear ul the beaches after the animals descend. You talk about high horses but. You seem to be trying to talk down to others too. 

Give pasbury a break, he knows that the proles just can't help themselves from turning their immediate environment into a shithole, they're not as well educated as he is and are incapable of rational thought. They're the middle class man's burden, apparently.

I’ve always boycotted it

Primary school kids are probably very aware. My daughter has got us doing multiple litter picks along our road and they do school litter picks in the park the school is in.

Re the general issue, I think that society is driving us to become more selfish. We seem to be constantly surrounded by messaging that is consumerist and disposable and that is reflected by how people treat things.

For those blaming the older generation, my mother, despite whinging about "environmentalists", is far greener than most. Would never leave light on, always takes public transport over her car if possible, always looking after things so they last, repairing and altering clothes, NEVER wastes food. Her recycling bins and waste bins are always near empty as she produces so little waste. 

Its an interesting view of what 'society' is.  I thought 'society' was all about the group think rather than the selfish ?  I'm not sure what word I'd use for the general social environment, mind.

I'm a sleep deprived engineer, I'm not the most eloquent at the best of times! Please feel free to replace "society" with a more appropriate word, I agree it's not quite right.

I just feel that "life" seems to be focused on the acquisition of material things, which then need almost immediately replacing with newer better material things ad infinitum. I'm not immune to it, "those new boots look loads lighter than the ones I have, I'd definitely onsight VIII in those" etc. In my defence, my B£ boots are Salomon Super Mountain 9s so they have done "some service".

Yea I did wonder if it was a result of a more throwaway consumerist centered society. My generation does seem to buy a lot more shit than the previous, I've known young guys obsessions over £300 shoes, they've already got a pair but there's a new colour out now for the collection, i simply can't imagine being so wasteful. A lot of items and tools I buy (with the exception of climbing gear) are second hand and then reconditioned.

People litter for a variety of reasons, not always ignorance. Sometimes it's because there just isn't a way to dispose of litter. Litter bins are scarce, and they're not emptied often enough. More often it's because people take their cues from the environment - littered areas attract more litter. And you have to look at the structural causes too - too much packaging in particular. 

It's not about class in any direct way - lower classes litter more, or similar. It's about how poorer people live in dirtier more run down environments with poorer services and, as above, how litter attracts litter. 

This is interesting on these things:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/29/litterers-wont-change...

Carry it in, carry it out. It's not very complicated. 

I've been wondering about the mentality of litterers, as surely the solution depends on working out why they do it. I just can't fathom why someone would go to a beautiful spot and leave crap there. Does litter all over the place not diminish the experience for them? Do they have no intention of ever going back? Do they assume someone else will deal with it? 

The other day I was picking up a trail of Pringles cans and bottles from the crag, and the perps had helpfully left a carrier bag for me to put it in. On picking it up gingerly, I discovered the bag was empty apart from a few quid in change. I have been puzzling ever since why they would do this. If you can't be bothered to clear your litter, surely you'd take your cash?

* Note nice bit of virtue-signaling above

It's not complicated, but a lot of people just don't grasp the concept.

I think a lot of people have come to expect that they can dispose of anything they don't want wherever they are and it will be dealt with "By the council cos I pay my taxes innit". If there are no bins then this is a failure by the people responsible so they can just dump their crap and someone will come and remove it.

There needs to be some serious re-education to convince people that if you brought something with you and you don't want it anymore then you need to take it away and deal with it. 

The reason is not ignorance, it is being scum. It is impossible to be so dense not to realize that littering is spoiling the environment, and that there is an obvious solution in taking your rubbish back home. The conclusion must be that the littering is deliberate, and should therefore be met with MASSIVE penalties.

My favourite penalty would be jail for one year, but weekends only, Friday 4pm to Monday 4am. During that time the litterers should also be made to pick up litter in chain gangs wearing litter shaming uniforms, Singapore style.

CB

'I just can't fathom why someone would go to a beautiful spot and leave crap there.'

True story - I stayed on a beautiful family campsite on the NE a few years back, and a group of lads camped near by - early 20s, I should say. They sat in a beer garden throwing their empty glasses into a stream that children would play in,  I went and collected them and asked them to stop. Curiously one thought he was being witty when he said something about slitting fish's bellies, another was quite shamefaced and started helping me.

That evening they were camped near us and pretty raucous and I'd had enough confrontation for one day, so left them to it. They left about 5:00 am, presumably to avoid paying, of course as well as leaving total squalor of empties, empty cans of food, cigarette butts etc at least two had had cr*ps and just left their turds in the middle of the campsite. This was 50 yards from a perfectly OK toilet. Who on earth thinks that is acceptable behaviour?

Festivals would be a good pace to start; for some reason leaving your stuff behind at events doesn't have the same stigma as everyday littering.  But it helps establish the mindset that  disposable/temporary means throwaway anywhere.

yesterday was saddened to see my local veteran beech (probably one of the largest in the county at >6m girth)  has succumbed to fire and the recent high winds;(

https://imgur.com/HI6GZno

https://imgur.com/WTQeDFM

https://imgur.com/63I3wl1

https://imgur.com/EWHgYIW

It's also the generation which seems to need a fresh plastic bottle of designer water on a regular basis, pre-packed sandwiches in card/plastic, and take-away food with polystyrene cartons, and all the other throw-away rubbish that never used to exist. When I started going to the countryside (or indeed anywhere else), forty-odd years ago, I took a flask and sandwiches wrapped in paper (or later in a tupperware box). Litter left behind - ZERO.

Nowadays too many youngsters bleat on about being "green" and "eco-friendly", but the reality is frequently quite the opposite.

I remember pre-Thatcher times when I challenged people about litter in public parks they'd say 'It's okay, I'm helping keep the parkie in a job.' I suspect that attitude persists, despite the general decline in council services. 

That was the tip for the 'someone else who will deal with it'!

This is a case where the ignorance argument breaks down. That's quite deliberate bad behaviour - they know exactly what they're doing. 

Sure. My solution would be to make the licence of the festival contigent on handing the site back in pristine state the day after the festival ends, again backed up by huge fines. Puts the onus on the organizers.

CB

Well done, keep it up

I doubt they thought it was acceptable behavior, I'm more inclined to think they got a kick out of being as obnoxious as possible. With actual scum like this there is probably not a great deal you can do. Although sentencing them to a long stint of community service clearing up after other scrotes might help.

I think that total scum are a minority though. The majority of litter is left by ordinary people who probably think of themselves as decent, they haven't deliberately strewn it around or shat everywhere. If we could get through to them then most of the problem would be solved.

Yes, if every outdoor event enforced a leave no trace ethos then that would be a good way of getting people to think in those terms. As cb294 says, it would be possible to use licencing rules to force the organisers to make the punters comply.

I go to one festival nowadays and they have a very strong environmental ethos. Each year they show photos of the campsites after the festival but before the clean up starts. They are always immaculate apart from one or two shit piles where bunch of young lads has been camped.

We have new neighbours, a big extended family who have moved out from the town and are using the garden as an evening party venue, which is winding us up a lot. A couple of days ago I saw the dad hand his drinks can to his child and send him to toss it in the tream, which runs though the garden. We are moving out at the end of June and we absolutely can't wait.

I can't comment on the stream as my garden is lacking in that department. The partying neighbour though, we have the same problem. Every weekend their conservatory is turned into a gigantic subwoofer, which I wouldn't mind too much if they had a decent taste in music.