Leaders and illegality

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 john arran 21 Nov 2019

Having just read that Benjamin Netanyahu has been charged with several criminal offences, and with a Trump impeachment seeming ever more likely, and with Johnson facing a variety of investigations, has there ever been a time when Western leaders have been routinely sailing so close to the wind in terms of what they can do and legally get away with?

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Nempnett Thrubwell 21 Nov 2019
In reply to john arran:

Isn't it that they are just getting found out these days as opposed to the current ones being particularly bad.

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 Rob Exile Ward 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Nempnett Thrubwell:

No - that's nonsense.  We're currently in uncharted waters of routine contempt for the law by our supposed leaders. I've been following politics for 50 years - mostly from a leftish, vaguely cynical point of view - and I've never known anything like it.

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 jimtitt 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

That looks like a selective memory at work,  Nixon, Clinton, Berlusconi and a few other Italians, Harold Wilson, a shedload of French politicians, more dodgy Central and South Americans than you can think of, virtually every African despot, the occasiol Benelux creep and don't even start on the wonderful Warsaw pact and Balkan leaders.

Gone for good 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> No - that's nonsense.  We're currently in uncharted waters of routine contempt for the law by our supposed leaders. I've been following politics for 50 years - mostly from a leftish, vaguely cynical point of view - and I've never known anything like it.

A fan of Stalin and Khrushchev were you?

Maybe Ceaucescu rocked your boat or you like to ignore Berlusconis misfortune. 

Post edited at 18:28
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 Rob Exile Ward 21 Nov 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

I suppose I was limiting my observations to UK and US leaders... Harold Wilson? Your 'avin a larf. Clinton? Tried to deny having an affair... Different leagues.

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 Rob Exile Ward 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Gone for good:

Oh ffs; reference to the rule of law might have been a tiny clue that it wasn't a review of all governments, everywhere. Relatively speaking, the US and above all the UK have been held as examples of pretty much the highest standards of probity... Johnson and Trump are unravelling that reputation daily.

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 jimtitt 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> I suppose I was limiting my observations to UK and US leaders... Harold Wilson? Your 'avin a larf. Clinton? Tried to deny having an affair... Different leagues.


Wilson jumped before he was pushed. Nobody gave a shit where Clinton shot his load (apart from the obvious issue of abusing his position to obtain sexual favours from an employee) he was impeached for perjury and obstructing the course of justice.

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 Paul Sagar 21 Nov 2019
In reply to john arran:

I'd say what they were doing in the Llanberis slate when the first leaders started out there was close to the wind in terms of legality?

Sorry, couldn't resist!

 Rob Exile Ward 21 Nov 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

Wilson resigned because he knew he was deteriorating mentally, nowadays it would be called Alzheimer's.

Your point is?

pasbury 21 Nov 2019
In reply to john arran:

Check out what Jair Bolsonaro and his cronies (some of whom are family members - pattern there) are getting up to and getting away with so far.

pasbury 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Sorry, couldn't resist!

Hmmm maybe you should have done.

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 jimtitt 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> Wilson resigned because he knew he was deteriorating mentally, nowadays it would be called Alzheimer's.

> Your point is?


Well that's one interpretation. Alternatively he was a brandy swilling drunk who planned to re-unify Ireland, tried to bribe Gadaffi and consorted with people like Kagan. About Marcia the less said the better.

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 Rob Exile Ward 21 Nov 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

Not a fan then? Marcia - never any evidence of wrongdoing. Gàddafi - I've never heard that, Wilson resigned just a few years after Gàddafi assumed power and we'll we'll  he went totally bonkers.

Brandy swilling drunk?  Nice. Never heard that. 

 Wiley Coyote2 21 Nov 2019
In reply to john arran:

I think the shocking thing now is the blatant nature of what's being done and, more significantly, that  it appears to be done with total impunity. The old checks and balances are being ignored and hence found to be toothless

Again limiting it to the UK/US Profumo resigned because he had lied to the Commons. Nothing more serious than that. Even so, there were no ifs  or buts an 'honorable member' who lied to the House had to go and everyone agreed. It was a matter of honour (albeit only after you were found out!). Compare that with the last year or two. Lying is routine. May's govt was found to be in conempt of Parliament: no heads rolled and there was no comeback whatsoever. Johnson was found to have lied to the Queen and his prorogation of Parliament  ruled  to be illegal by the Supreme Court. Again no comeback at all. Life just goes on. No remorse and no apology let alone a resignation. In fact I think I recall  one minister being interviewed about it who said: "The Supreme Court is entitled to its view, we have ours" as if the SC was a complete irrelevance.

I was in the US at the time of the Clinton impeachment. Altho it was perjury most people seemed to think it was pretty small beer, a married man lying to deny an affair.  Neatly summed up to me by a woman who said: "He's a guy, of course he screwed her. He's a politician, of course he lied".  Not much worry about 'high crimes and misdemeanours' there. Nixon was much more serious involving major criminality but even he realised he had to resign (if only to avoid a worse fate) and left office.

After this week's damning evidence I think most neutrals would say Trump has to go for the specific act of bribing a foreign govt using US federal aidfor his own personal political benefit.  Sondland's testimony was detailed and specific. Plus he  is not one of the usual anti-Trump suspects. He was an early supporter, a million dollar donor and Trump's appointee as Ambassador to Europe. When someone like him testifies as he did with chapter and verse, naming names the writing is on the wall but I very much doubt the President will jump.

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 jimtitt 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> Not a fan then? Marcia - never any evidence of wrongdoing. Gàddafi - I've never heard that, Wilson resigned just a few years after Gàddafi assumed power and we'll we'll  he went totally bonkers.

> Brandy swilling drunk?  Nice. Never heard that. 


Clearly your observation of politics for the lastx50 years has a few gaps

 Offwidth 22 Nov 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

If there are gaps maybe you can provide the agreed historical references... shouldn't be that hard. There was a lot of paranoia leading to deep state dirty tricks in his time as leader .. how do we know your not pedalling more of that?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson

Post edited at 09:51

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