Laying slabs/patio

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 llanberis36 13 May 2023

Being fairly practical and handy, considering laying my own patio slabs over a modest area (terrace rear garden), which is currently laid to lawn, fairly level and rectangle. Prices quoted have been upwards of 8K.

has anyone have experience of laying flags, I am fairly confident of doing it but wondered if missing anything obvious 

also, any other recommendations for someone to do this at a reasonable cost most welcome 

In Sheffield 

 flatlandrich 13 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

Laying a basic patio isn't that hard from a skills point of view but there's plenty to consider. 

Drainage, location of services under the area, access, type of slabs you plan to use, edging, etc.

Most people over look the simple stuff like just how much soil they will need to remove to get a decent sub-base. (Sub-base + mortar bed + slab thickness => 150mm). Do you have room for a skip and can materials be delivered easily? Do you need to hire tools - cement mixer, compactor, slab cutting tools?

Just be prepared for lots of hard work, research each step thoroughly (Books and Youtube) before starting anything and plan everything ahead. 

 Dax H 13 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

Be careful what slabs you buy, 3x2x50mm flags weigh around 75kg each. If your not parking on it do yourself a favour and get light weight smaller slabs. 

 Slackboot 13 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

I have always laid Paving on a dry mix of Sharp Sand and cement. It slowly hardens with moisture in the air allowing plenty time for readjustment. Consider using Polymeric sand between the joints. Add a little water and the binding agent in it sets the fine particles  so weeds and insects can't penetrate between slabs.

Don't forget your spirit level to make a slight slope to wherever you want any excess water to flow.

 DizzyT 13 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

I’ve laid many slabs over the years and like the speed and ease of a mortar bed. I compact MOT 1 with a plate (100mm) then mix 6:1. Rent a mixer if you don’t own one. Also rent a 300mm saw if you are fitting to an area. It’s a really fast way to do it (c 100 slabs a day). I joint with Sika Fastfix which is expensive but outlasts sand/cement  by 15 years.

OP llanberis36 13 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

Great thanks all

very useful 

 henwardian 13 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

I've never laid a patio but I have fixed a garden path that was composed of slabs, I just put dabs of cement in each corner rather than fully covering the under-area with cement. It worked... sort of - it was none too perfectly flat and 1 out of about 12 or so slabs wobbled after all was said and done... and that's immediately after it was dry, no idea how many more started wobbling in the months and years afterwards.

Out of interest I just watched the Homebase "how to lay a patio" on Youtube and even for a moderate-sized patio, I think you'd be talking about 4 days of DIY work interspersed with 2 or 3 more days for letting cement dry but with the odd problem you could easily find that 4 days stretching to 6 or 7.

Might be worth pricing up the materials to find out where that 8k number comes from. A few ballpark estimates would be:

1k - slabs

1k - other materials

1k - 2 workmen for 2 days

1k - profit

1k - tool hire/capital depreciation/work vehicle fuel + depreciation

1k - misc costs like unexpected snags, extra time to arrange materials drop offs or pick ups, etc.

But these are without knowing the size of your patio or how pretty the slabs you want are, if your garden is actually a fair size, these costs might all be too low. On the other hand, if you are literally looking at a 5m x 5m patio then this estimate does seem very high.

How many estimates do you have? If you have at least 3 and they are all in that ballpark then either a) You have a serious shortage of builders in your area, b) That is genuinely the cost to do a quality job and you are just underestimating through lack of knowledge or c) You are an expert at rubbing people up the wrong way and nobody wants to work for you :P

How much does the quality of the result matter to you? It's very unlikely that you will achieve the same quality and durability of finish as a DIY effort that a professional would.

1
 wbo2 13 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:I've lain some slabs, and just used a sand/.cement mix as per Slackboot. . It's not super tricky to do, depends how perfect you want.  I used flagstones about 60×30x1.8 cm

 Try it yourself,  if you don't like it then lift them and get professionals to re-lay them. 

In reply to llanberis36:

I've laid two patios and my single biggest tip is to hire a cement mixer. The first one I did I mixed a whole mortar bed by hand and it nearly broke me! The second I hired a mixer at very little cost and it save me hours and I was way less broken afterwards.

 DizzyT 14 May 2023
In reply to henwardian:

Well for comparison I dug out receipts for an 80m2 patio I laid last year.

Slabs £2040

Sub base £250

Waste disposal (grab lorry) £100

Mortar £240

Sika Fastfix £154

I own or borrow (plate) the tools but you could hire them for £150 for a week.

The project took me 4 days over Easter when I was on call so like something to keep me busy.

 abr1966 14 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

I've spent about 3 days extending my basic patio area with 2*2 slabs. I've added 12 slabs and built up the base with mot stone and sharp sand. Overall cost with everything has been about £140.....I'm sure a professional would have done a better job but it's solid, is flush with the other existing part and fine for me. Slabs were from a reclamation yard and we're £3 each...

You'll need a long spirit level and a spade.....it's a bit of a pain moving them around as they're quite heavy but I'm really no DIY'r and it's not been too hard but does take quite a lot of time....good luck..

OP llanberis36 14 May 2023
In reply to abr1966:

Brilliant 

Thanks all

DIY it is and will see it as training for various unfinished climbing projects 

 Ridge 14 May 2023
In reply to Dax H:

> Be careful what slabs you buy, 3x2x50mm flags weigh around 75kg each. If your not parking on it do yourself a favour and get light weight smaller slabs. 

That was Mrs Ridge's idea at our last house, get some council paving slabs “It's less slabs to lay and it works out cheaper”. Cue much swearing as I laid them.

If we'd been married at the time I'd have divorced her.

 Paul Evans 14 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

Don't forget about drainage - which way will the water run off? On ours it ended up needing to run off to house side, which then needed a discrete drainage channel fitting all the way along the "join" between the paving and the house so that water could drain off properly and would then flow into house drains. Obviously easier if you can get it to drain off to garden. 

Paul.

 nikoid 14 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

Choose your slabs carefully, we laid sandstone slabs 10 years ago and they haven't weathered well in spite of sealing them. See photo with small piece of as new material for comparison. I think the problem is they are porous which encourages black spot, lichen etc. They are lethal when wet/frosty too so we regret our choice. Pressure washing them is largely ineffective and blows all the polymeric  jointing out. Polymeric jointing is easy/quick to use but just doesn't last in my experience. 


 StuPoo2 15 May 2023
In reply to nikoid:

> Choose your slabs carefully, we laid sandstone slabs 10 years ago and they haven't weathered well in spite of sealing them. See photo with small piece of as new material for comparison. I think the problem is they are porous which encourages black spot, lichen etc. They are lethal when wet/frosty too so we regret our choice. Pressure washing them is largely ineffective and blows all the polymeric  jointing out. Polymeric jointing is easy/quick to use but just doesn't last in my experience. 

Patio Magic ... 2x a year ... spring and autumn.  The pressure washer will work well once the growth is dead.  Patio Magic is gentle stuff unlike some of the stuff you can buy.  Patio Magic will work without the pressure washer ... but it will take maybe 6 weeks before you start to see any improvement.  If you get it properly clean and then do it bi-annually to stay on top of the growth it will keep them clean.   I put it on with one of those pump sprayers.  5L ... £18 amazon.

Pics here after 45 days:  https://diygardening.co.uk/products/patio-magic/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Patio-Magic-Cleaner-2-5L-Refill/dp/B001VEJCLM

 montyjohn 15 May 2023
In reply to abr1966:

> Slabs were from a reclamation yard and we're £3 each...

Where did you buy the slabs from? A quick search and the best I can find is £100+ per m2. Granted they are very nice flags but they look heavy.

 abr1966 15 May 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

They're just bog standard 2 by 2 slabs....came from a reclamation yard in Macclesfield called Cheshire demolition...

 dread-i 15 May 2023
In reply to llanberis36:

I've laid a patio onto a dry bed, 10:1 sand cement mix. You can work with it to get the get level, and dries crunchy, rather than rock hard, as wet cement would. With wet cement, if you stand on it before its dry, you can alter the level. Which is not what you want.

Sometimes when lifting or lowering one slab, you disturb the other that you've just spent ages getting level. If you can get some of that flat nylon packing tape they put around big boxes, that's great. Stick it under the slab, then if you need to lift it, you can pull it up easily. Get the slab level, then remove the tape, by pulling it through. You could do similar with strong string.

I found using a 4x4 fence post handy for giving it thump to get it level. I've seen commercial pavers using a giant rubber mallet. I don't know if you can hire them, but worth considering.

 nikoid 16 May 2023
In reply to StuPoo2:

Thanks, I've tried Patio Magic and some other stuff that is supposed to clear black spot (smelt like bleach) but to no avail. I reckon I'd have to grit blast it to get it looking decent. I wonder if anyone does that?


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