UKH

Interesting to see that Friends of the Earth rate the Labour Party as greener than the Green Party

https://friendsoftheearth.uk/general-election/general-election-2019-manifes...

I am sure the analysis will not be perfect but still an interesting outcome and at least a little bit embarrassing for the Green Party.  Caroline Lucas was pretty wound up about it on Radio 4 earlier today.  The FofE spokesperson gave a good defence overall of the methodology I thought.

It is good to see that the environment has been at the forefront of most of the parties thinking.  I think we have seen a massive shift in political thinking overall.

Unfortunately the party that looks most likely to win the election still doesn't seem to realise the threat facing us.

Yes the Labour Party Green revolution is ahead of everyone else and shaped by future generations not gammons.

Alternatively it could be seen as Labour offering the moon on a stick and a free unicorn for everyone. Since Blue planet showed us what we all knew but overlooked because it required effort and now Thumberg is suddenly in our houses labour are grasping to anything that may get them a tick in a box. 

Based on what they promise, or their party's current practices, ie travel, housing and so on? 

Not sure why the Green party would be upset. It's a win for them. They could never expect more than 1 or 2 MPs but their policies have shaped others. This should be the point they declare victory and return to the larger socialist party.

Based on their manifesto promises.  As Dax H points out, this could well be completely unrealistic in order to get in power.  What will be interesting is what really happens.

I would agree but clearly Caroline Lucas was pretty annoyed about it on Radio 4.  I think there are two things.  One that the Greens are no longer the greenest.  The second is that even they fell short of the Friends of the Earth maximum points on environmental policies. 

That'd bonkers.  How can Labour be Green by allowing the Tories to win the election by sticking to left wing dogma.  For day week?!?!?

The depressing thought is that if the Conservatives get in it will be road building and the economy over the environment for another 5 years, which may sound our deathknell. Theresa Villiers........good grief. Yes, I think Caroline Lucas should have taken some credit for encouraging Labour down the green route.

Green is the new Religion, everybody’s talking about it!

You don’t need to vote in a big fat Marxist government to help you take some responsibility for the planet.

Just walk home. Turn your central heating off. And wear a jumper.

and turn down the second hot tub a degree ...

I agree.  She had a real opportunity to claim credit for the Greens in having contributed to a sea change in how people and most political parties are now readily embracing environmental and sustainable policies.  Instead she came across as defensive and annoyed.

Surely the ultimate success of the Green party is that it is no longer required as all the other parties have adopted green policies.  I think we are still a long way from that situation.

But then as we have seen with our good friend Nigel, as long as a political party is no longer required they just morph into something else (and more extreme).  Politicians are politicians whatever their colour.

Yes true, I take your point all the environmental organisations, Greta, blue planet and the scientific community have pushed this issue to top priority and it has taken the man made 6th extinction of the species and man made global temperature rises before Labour or any other major  party have decided that the Green Party were correct all along and started copying them.

However out of all us old gammons the Labour Party seem most driven by their younger members into acknowledging the severity of this catastrophe and creating policy to suit whereas the Tories still take the lobbying money from certain big businesses that make the environmental situation worse. 

I think it has got so bad that we need to vote for a party that does take drastic action as well as us taking personal responsibility for every one of our actions with respect to the environment and all species. 

Sadly, while some parties have spent time and effort thinking about how we can re engineer our society to combat climate change it is not an issue that will sway many voters, if any at all.

As evidence, look at the last BJ/Jezza debate. Did any of the audience mention climate change? No. You can also look at various pills on what the public regard as the most important election issues and again, climate change doesn't even figure.

Labour's initiative has come from the grass roots. While the leadership may have encouraged climate activists within the party as a way of attracting younger voters the policy is far more than cynical electioneering it is a genuine attempt to modify society by re distributing wealth while tackling the greatest challenge mankind has ever faced.

Ok great.

have you turned your central heating off?

Yes in fact I don't use it all the time, never did, I will put a bathrobe or cosy clothes on before I put any heating on. Always have,seriously. 

Have you?

Has anyone else noticed the amount of extra traffic generated by Sunday Shopping (aka 24/7 Logistics and consumption chain)

I rather suspect that  no one is ready to take on that particular issue that must be affecting the environment.

Rather like not cutting speed limits to reduce consumption I expect no action soon as it would hurt the brave party that tried to do something

More to the point... have you?

I have. Happy?

Can you now stop trivialising climate change? 

Who asked you to butt in?

You seem to have moved e from quite amusing parody to obnoxious knob. Pity. 

Labours policies will be great for the environment, once the economy collapses and major industry grinds to a halt CO2 emissions will drop no end. 

I'm definitely not a Labour supporter, but I find the attention they are giving to green issues very encouraging.

It's easy to dismiss it as cynical stuff they won't deliver, but at least it signals a clear intent - governments rarely deliver quite what they mean to, but even getting a good chunk of this stuff implemented would be a major move in the right direction.

Re the comment(s) above about it being easy for individuals to make a difference themselves - well, no, it isn't. It's only large, population-scale changes that matter, individual ones are meaningless (apart from when they drive those larger ones). It takes actions by governments, global corporations and the like, to make changes that won't simply be lost in the noise - and, as the commenter above neatly demonstrates, there are always going to be plenty of individuals who aren't willing to make the sacrifices, so they just won't happen unless co-ordinated at a higher level.

It would be a very good thing, I think, if we were more often able to step away from partisan, tribal lines and acknowledge when something is a good idea - even if it's being proposed by someone we don't really get on with.

I’m generally obnoxious, particularly toward the slimy opportunism of Corbyn.

Wind farms don’t get built on a four day week 

What, you think I’m in climate change denial?

Not at all.....I’m just having a slow Sunday

The economy is collapsing under Tory mismanagement. We can't afford not to invest in Labour's green industrial revolution.

https://labour.org.uk/labours-environment-manifesto/

The one sure fire winner in this election is the concept of cynicism.

You really are a vacuous individual.

I bet you’d quite like me if you knew me

Maybe, but you are coming across as a bit of a dick.

It's actually doing less bad than most of Europe, faint praise but that's the situation now. Any growth is a bonus. Look at Germany, they hold so many strings, they stacked the euro in their favour and still dodged recession by 0.1% in the 3rd quarter.

I'm not against spending or investment, but best not piss it up the wall on ideological nationalisation policies. So green policies, Yes, I just don't trust Labour to do it properly. 

Sure they do, and for the glass half full vision, faster than they would on a 3 day week

4 Day week sounds good to me, more family and leisure time.

jk

Reality is none of this matters because the Tories will win. We're getting more grinding austerity or spiralling borrowing (either will do) as your brexit delivers the economic shock the far right of the Conservative party needs to turn London into another grubby deregulated tax haven run by spiv pricks for spiv pricks, to hell with the rest of us. (slow clap)

jk

You’re missing the point slightly, by taking me literally. Actually wind farms get built 24/7. I’ve been involved in a few of them. In the last decade, the biggest wind farms in the world have sprouted in the Irish Sea. These developments span party politics and are set to continue regardless of what flavour the Prime Minister is. As is development of green technology for motor vehicles and a myriad of other carbon improvements.
In relation to this thread, Labour is simply tapping into current zeitgeist in order to scrape a bit more of the popular vote with its unrealistic targets. But you should know this...it’s election time. In the end, the U.K. will naturally embrace a more carbon neutral way of life, but it will mean big infrastructure challenges. Nevertheless, the U.K. is a small problem compared with say China or the USA.

Maybe they'll tempted Amazon and the likes away from the grubby little deregulated tax haven Juncker turned Luxembourg into? 

Oh goody, Poe's law strikes again.

jk

The reality is the UK won't become an unregulated tax haven. It enjoys too much financial trade with Europe to head that way, neither will Amazon decide to hq itself in the UK. So no change on either front. 

If a 4 day week becomes law (particularly the part about being paid the same as for a 5 day week) my employees and I suspect lots of others will have unlimited family time. My customers need up to 7 day 24 hour cover. We provide this by being fully staffed Monday to Friday and a call out basis for weekends. I'm sure my office could do 5 days work in 4 days with the extra productivity a 4 day week is supposed to bring but my service engineers can't so I would be forced to employ more with all the added costs like training, holidays, extra vans and tools etc. Then add in minimum wage going up to £10, I don't have anyone on minimum wage but if the bottom pay moves up then all pay scales should move up.

I have looked at the numbers and it's not even close to viable for me so if it happens my doors will be closing and I will go work for someone else and enjoy a 4 day week plus a holiday entitlement instead of my current 6.5 day week and maybe up to 10 days a year off on a good year. 

How do you think people spoke about the idea of weekends, minimum pay and paid holiday before they became the norm?

Jk

This is an excellent logical checkmate. I propose that we move to a zero day week and all have the entire time off. Sure, some will say this is unworkable - but remember, they said the same thing about weekends and those worked fine.

There needs to be a balance between workers rights and productivity. Personally I think its about right where it is at the moment. Especially for a small business like mine. There is a perception that all businesses are raking it in off the backs of the wage slave's, the reality is some companies do but the majority don't. 

It's a moot point anyway as far as I'm concerned my books say I can't afford more people / vans / equipment so if it happens it happens. 

Interestingly my biggest customer moved all their fitters and electricians on to a 4 day week rather than a 5 day week to benefit from the extra efficiency and its been a disaster. No more jobs per day are being done and the lads come in on their rest day on overtime. Management are wanting to go back to 5 days but the lads are having none of it. 

Of course there has to be a balance. I'm not so convinced we can't do things better but nor am I overly exercised about this at the moment.

You supply and service water treatment equipment, right? We don't stop drinking and crapping because employment law changes. Your niche still exists. When national employment law changes everyone operates in the new environment: competitors, customers, employees and you.

Some jobs particularly those requiring significant travel or set-up between sites or tasks meaning a very small number of discrete tasks can be completed in a day, those obviously won't see a productivity increase because even if you're more enthused, fresher, working faster and as a consequence you finish one or few tasks early you're still too late to get to that last job and get it finished. Lots of us, maybe the majority don't work like that, we do far more continuous work that can be dipped in and out of, working faster doesn't yield an early finish and a new start on a new task tomorrow, it yields more work done per day and that productivity increase if it can be realised opens several possibilities as to who benefits and how.

jk

Once you add in this proviso this becomes less an argument for Labour's four day week and more an argument for the Lib Dems 'flexible working by default':

●  Change the law so that flexible working is open to all from day one in the job, with employers required to advertise jobs accordingly, unless there are significant business reasons why that is not possible.

Page 24.

I wasn't arguing for any specific policy. I said it (an extra day off in the week) sounds good to me because it does. I don't imagine we as a society are quite there yet but our world is changing fast and with it what we value most may too.

jk

I am very much aware of that but.

A, I can't afford to employ the extra people, set them up with vans tools and training and pay for the extra level of management that would be needed. 

B, it will put more on my shoulders and they already carry a lot of weight and I won't do that. I can earn more and do less if I were to work for someone else, the reason I don't is I don't want a boss.

A 4 day week, holiday and sick pay, working time directive and being able to pass things up the tree when I'm out of my depth sounds appealing and it won't take many changes to the current situation for me to go for it.