UKH

https://mobile.twitter.com/BuzzFeedUKPol/status/1197484866092318720

The Mirror are banned from the battle bus, Gove can't answer a question without making it out to be someone else's agenda, fake fact checking twitter handles, dodgy websites.... 

If you're an honest to goodness Conservative voter then I pity you having to justify this shit. Your party does you a disservice. 

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Pritti Patel's assertions that the past ten years have been nothing to do with the government's a pretty good one too.

In reply to krikoman:

That's the one that mysteriously disappeared from the BBC news site? (Though to be fair apparently they cocked up a quote so had to redo it). She's a complete disaster. I think it's the perma-smirk she wears.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/priti-patel-under-fire-for-claimin...

Love the petulant little head shake. 

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

It was only a year or so ago she got the sack for talking to the Israeli government in private.

To me she shouldn't even be an MP any more!

Interest about the BBC though, they really don't help themselves against allegations of bias.

Surely, you'd make sure "bad" Tory news once reported isn't removed.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

The Economist had its Bagehot (UK) column on Patel a few weeks back. It quoted a senior ministerial colleague, who they conceded wasn't a fan, as saying Priti is "as thick as mince".

It was quite the most delighfully well written character assassination you've seen.  I really do sincerely hope that Patel has read it, and if she cried afterward she had it coming.

In reply to krikoman:

If you're referring to austerity, perhaps you need reminding that whilst it may be fashionable in your circles to claim it was a choice the Tories made, it was also the choice that the Lib Dems and of course Labour made in the general election of 2010.

Let me remind you what Labour were promising at that election

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deepe...

"Alistair Darling admitted tonight that Labour's planned cuts in public spending will be "deeper and tougher" than Margaret Thatcher's in the 1980s, as the country's leading experts on tax and spending warned that Britain faces "two parliaments of pain" to repair the black hole in the state's finances."

Yes, two parliaments of pain to repair the damage that happened under Labour.

In reply to pec:

I know I’m probably being a bit thick, but please explain to me Labour’s involvement in mass selling of sub prime mortgages in the US which were repackaged as “sound” investments and resold to UK banks?

In reply to pec:

Don't be doing that!! You know, posting facts and stuff about austerity and the national debt and the letter left by the last Labour government saying the cupboard was empty. No no no. You'll have all the little snowflakes melting in their own pool of self pity and that wouldn't be right would it! 

In reply to kevin stephens:

You're right, you are being a bit thick. For a start why would a bank sell its prime mortgages. They sold off sub prime mortgages. Here's a little history of the problem but it all was allowed to happen under Labour's watch with the treasury, FCA and the B of E turning a blind eye to problems they should have done something about.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2008/05/financial-crisis-banks-englan...

In reply to kevin stephens:

Prior to Labour in 1997 banks had to separate commercial and investment bank activities. Gordon Brown, sought to emulate the economic boom that followed minor deregulation in the 80s. He passed legislation removing the need for separation.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown-i-was-wrong-to-free-b...

The US were caught on the hoof as money flowed out of New York and into London so quickly repealed the Glass-Steagall act. And the subprime crisis started.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp

Labour were not solely to blame but they have to shoulder some responsibility.

In reply to Gone for good:

Strange use of snowflake. The treasury knew that the letter from Liam Byrne was a homage to the letter from Maudling to Callaghan, a bit of black humour. Callaghan took it for what it was, a joke with an element of truth. But Cameron decided to take offence for political advantage. Surely that’s snowflake behaviour?  

In reply to kevin stephens:

You may not be being thick but perhaps you should read what I wrote a little more carefully. You may note that haven't specifically blamed Labour for any of that. The point I'm making is twofold.

1) The extent to which Labour can be held accountable for the damage the financial crisis did to the UK economy is debatable but it certainly wasn't the Tories fault, they hadn't been in office for 11 years and yet they are blamed, by some, for the pain caused by repairing the damage.

and

2) At the 2010 general election Labour were promising austerity "deeper than Thatcher" (see my link above). So the idea that the pain of austerity is because 'all Tories are c****' etc is clearly nonsense since Labour were promising exactly the same.

In reply to pec:

My memory was that Brown had borrowed much more to stimulate the economy than the tories liked and that was set to continue. Also the big lie that Labour caused all of it was sold pretty well by the tories in the election campaign and over the Cameron government. Although Labour were culpable for deregulation and not watching the ball, Brown had a big part in stopping total world economic collapse as fellow world leaders froze. 

In reply to pec:

So essentially your defence is that in some parallel universe that didn't happen (apart from inside your head) it's all Labour's fault. 

You and PP deserve each other. 

In reply to Gone for good:

Remind of the facts of the last nine years of a Labour government... 

In reply to Offwidth:

Quite, Brown gets far more credit for averting a global economic catastrophe outside of the UK than in.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

It's taken precisely nine year fix Labour's global financial crash. It's all good now though; thank goodness. Just vote Tory one more time to reap the benefits of the prudent financial planning that has got us here. The milk and honey for all will be abundant and unmetered.

In reply to JLS:

You and your sunny uplands again!

In reply to TobyA:

she makes me think of someone who would only be interested in the death of someone digging an antitank ditch insofar as the death affected the completion of the ditch, totally coldbludded

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Unfortunately to a large extent it doesn't matter electorally if something is justifiable or not. IMHO many people just hear what they want and ignore awkward questions.

My pessimistic guess is for Tory gains, even a working majority, Labour overall losses and January Brexit followed by rushed trade negotiations with EU. Hope I'm wrong.

In reply to oldie:

I do hope you are wrong. Of course we're all in our bubble, I get that, we have a tribe to which we belong. But I seriously hope that if I was a Tory voter or supporter, I'd find it hard to stomach watching that video. There's no political justification, it's a deflection (delusion) on a nuclear scale. It's not our fault... Labour, local government, teachers (education!), society. It's a level of argument I get from my 9 year old.

In reply to stevieb:

Strange use of the term black humour? WTF is funny ( dark humour is actually meant to be funny ) about leaving the country's finances in a perilous state and forcing 10 years of austerity on the nation. Obviously Byrne didn't find it as funny or was being as flippant about it as you appear to be. 

Byrne wrote in the Guardian last year (2016) that “every day I have burnt with the shame” of having left the note, which “was not just stupid. It was offensive. That’s why it has made so many people so angry. And that is why it was so wrong to write it.

In reply to Gone for good:

Thats pretty much the dictionary definition of black humour! Making a joke about something very serious.

Of course Byrne is apologetic. Cameron weaponised his note against the whole labour government. It is part of a tradition in politics to write these letters, but his joke wasn’t taken in the spirit it was meant. His joke fell flat. Snowflakes took offence. 

In reply to stevieb:

There's a time and a place for black humour. Slinking off having left the country in the shit isn't one of them. Let's just agree to disagree. 

In reply to Gone for good:

There is never a time and a place for black humour that's what makes it black.

In reply to Gone for good:you have a very short memory of economic history... you've forgotten there was a worldwide bank crash and labours handling of this was rather good.  

  Austerity was a political choice rather than necessary, or at least the  full application 

In reply to JLS:

Sorry but that's just plain wrong. 

In reply to wbo2:

Yes of course. We had the Labour option of austerity or the conservative option of austerity.  So austerity was a political and a practical choice.

In reply to Gone for good:

And one version (the one that has been played out in real time for the last nine years, rather than the one that goes on in your head) has been disastrous on so many levels. 

The Tory supporters levels of denial are bewildering. 

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

No, not at all, you're another who needs to read what I've written more carefully.

What I said was that simply blaming the Tories for implementing a policy of austerity without acknowledging what caused that to become necessary and without acknowledging that the cause cannot be blamed upon them and without acknowledging that all the parties were offering exactly the same is totally unreasonable.

In reply to wbo2:

Their handling of the immediate post crisis period was indeed rather good. Rather less good was their total lack of preparation for such an eventuality, which despite their hubristic claim to have 'ended boom and bust' was always a distinct possibilty. It had been blindingly obvious for several years we were in a boom and that booms usually end with a bust.

It was a choice made by ALL the major parties at the 2010 election including Labour and in case you still haven't read it, here's the reminder (for the third time).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deepe...

In reply to pec:

Interestingly, I read an article recently and one of the points made was that the heroes of the boom invariably become the villains of the bust.
Last time round it was the banks. Next time round will it be Spacex/Tesla, Alphabet, Google and Facebook? I kind of feel like the clouds have already started to gather.... What will burst the bubble?

In reply to pec:

We agree they did do that. 

A global crash that we were insulated from, by a large degree, Gordon Brown. 

Except, as in my earlier response, it's only a truth that's been played out one way. It's interesting that you seem to be begrudgingly saying that the last nine years have been atrocious. 

Something that didn't happen can't be deemed unreasonable. But you guys don't seem to think much is unreasonable at the minute: a PM who is a habitual liar, Russian donations and suppression of a report into Russian interference in our democracy, a government who is shutting out particular sections of the media they don't like, and let's not forget bullshit Twitter accounts. 

Maybe time for you to re-evaluate what is and isn't reasonable. 

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

What on earth are you wittering on about? Your answers don't bear any relation to the points I've made.

Try actually reading what I've written and addressing the points I actually made instead of half reading something and imagining what you'd like me to have said so you can generate some spurious arguments against it.

In reply to pec:

All you've said is that in 2010 some measures were needed; let's call them austerity policy. All three party's said as much. But only one party did put that policy in place. And it's been monstrous. And now you're somehow trying to deflect from that with some presumed whataboutery of Labour would have been worse. That's your point addressed right there. The Tories did it, not Labour. 

Your head is further in the sand than Priti Patel's - "it's not the government's fault". 

In reply to pec:

Not this tired old myth again!

It was a global banking crisis brought about by bank, and investment company mismanagement. It was nothing to do with Labour policies. In fact the Tories slated Labour in office for introducing bank controls. If they had not done that the crisis would have been far worse. Gordon Browns policies limited the damage before the crisis occurred, and also by his actions afterwards.

It was a failure of capitalism, in the misselling on of toxic loans and mortgages particularily in America. 

Its just convenient for the right wing press to blame Labour.

In reply to Root1:

Go back and read the words I have actually written and see if you can find where I said it was down to Labour's policies. Yet another one who needs to read and think a bit more carefully.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Precisely, ALL three did, so to argue that the Tories are therefore uniquely evil is the usual kneejerk lefty BS.

No, two parties put that in place and the other would have done if they'd won the election.

Its certainly caused problems but most people believed the alternatives would have been more monstrous.

Where have I said it would have been worse under Labour? You really do need to read more carefully

In reply to pec:

Yes but it rapidly became apparent that the levels of austerity imposed were not necessary. In fact it was the opposite, in that its effect was to put a drag on the economy. We went from the country with the fastest growth  in Europe, to the slowest. 

Its funny how overnight Austerity is no longer necessary since Johnson gained power. Prior to that we were told to expect austerity for years to come. It was pure political dogma.

A recent survey showed that even Corbyns spending plans will only take is back to the average countries spend of gdp 

In reply to pec:

I've read your words. I've understood your words. The only realistic measure that can be evidenced is the one that occurred. That is the one enacted by the Tories (yes, propped up for a short time by the Lib Dems). What you're trying to 'suggest' is that Labour would have done, and gone through, exactly the same process. No one can know that. You're using that suggestion as a stick to blame Labour. Which neatly sidesteps the issue of what the Tories have inflicted on us. This sticks to the Tories no one else.

'It's not our fault' seems to be the latest delusional slogan from the blue corner. 

In reply to Gone for good:

Please could you explain what is remotely relevant about Byrne's historical folly to this general election?

In reply to Trevers:

Unfortunately, as this thread shows, it is still very relevant. To a lot of people, labour are held to account for everything bad that happened while they were in power for 13 years, but they are also held to account for the bad stuff thats happened in the subsequent 9 years too. Byrne’s joke feeds the idea that the country was bankrupt rather than it needed to sort out the deficit quickly. 

In the current widely held narrative, the billions spent by labour bringing hospitals and schools into a vaguely reputable state is wasted money which could only be fixed by 9 years of austerity. Labour clearly made many mistakes, but does anyone seriously think the conservatives wouldn’t have matched them step for step on the their biggest mistakes Iraq, banking regulation, stoking the housing market and PPI?

So instead of discussing the Home Secretary absolving herself of responsibility for the state of the country, we’ve deflected onto the 2008 banking crisis. 

In reply to stevieb:

 Labour were in power with decent majorities in that period. So they are well and truly tarnished with that brush. 

In reply to neilh:

Yes, Labour are responsible for their policies, good and bad, from 97-10. And the Conservatives are every bit as responsible for their policies 10-19. It works both ways. 

In reply to stevieb:

Yes it does. Events always overtake manifestos.