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Is it ok to solo Wild Camp?

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 glenn0010 10 May 2020

After the latest updates,

It was said that you can play sports with your houshould. 

Is it allowed to solo wild camp?

Cheers

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 Tom V 10 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

Do you want the government answer, the BMC answer or the UKC answer?

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 glenn0010 10 May 2020
In reply to Tom V:

I guess the goverment answer is the one that matters 

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 Red Rover 10 May 2020
In reply to Tom V:

Or the police answer! 

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 glenn0010 10 May 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

That surely wouldbe the same as the government answer, I would've thought...

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In reply to glenn0010:

What is the Goverment answer then?

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 Jezz0r 10 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

I think solo wild camping would be in line with the spirit of the new rules.

Whether it's in line with the letter of them, or whether the new rules are sensible or not, are different matters

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L Bilberry 10 May 2020
In reply to Jezz0r:

Really?  "Stay at home as much as possible"?

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In reply to Jezz0r:

Surely it would only be acceptable if you were able to walk into the wild camping spot from your front door. Even then, the message is still "stay close to home".

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 TMM 10 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

That would be an 'ecumenical matter'.

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 Jezz0r 10 May 2020
In reply to Bilberry:

Yeah, as I say, the spirit of the rules. The idea seems to be that we can be outside being healthy as long as we stay away from others. Of course they'll say stay at home as much as possible, because they don't want everyone to head to city centres and rub shoulders.

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 Jezz0r 10 May 2020
In reply to Wanderer100:

You seem to be out of date with the new rules in England.

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 Lankyman 10 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

> Is it allowed to solo wild camp?

Not sure how this fits in with not potentially putting MR teams at risk if you have an accident? Maybe you can 'wild' camp beside a road.

Post edited at 19:58
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In reply to glenn0010:

> After the latest updates,

> It was said that you can play sports with your houshould. 

> Is it allowed to solo wild camp?

I'd do whatever you consider to be "staying alert" and "controlling the virus". For me, that means having a cup of coffee and staying away from everyone - which is kind of life as normal for me anyway. 

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In reply to Lankyman:

> Not sure how this fits in with not potentially putting MR teams at risk

Do you think that's a significant risk?

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 olddirtydoggy 10 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

On wild camping we've been adding the government answer to the BMC answer, dividing it by the UKC logbook lockdown, timesing all that by the Police answer and we've got a result of '%/*&@!!?????'

Hope that helps.

Post edited at 20:07
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In reply to Jezz0r:

> You seem to be out of date with the new rules in England.

Go on then. What is your interpretation and what is your source because its not clear to me.

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 Lankyman 10 May 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Do you think that's a significant risk?


Risk of an accident - fairly low in my experience. Decades of backpacking and never any problems myself.

BUT risk of infecting an MRT member? That's the rub. I work in food retail and if coronavirus is around I'm more likely to become infected. So for that reason I'd be reluctant to head off into the wild right now.

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 Jezz0r 10 May 2020
In reply to Wanderer100:

Bojo very specifically said you can drive for exercise this evening.

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In reply to Jezz0r:

He said you can drive to parks and beaches. Its a bit of a stretch to say you can drive to a national park and go off wild camping. Might be possible but, like much of the message, its not absolutely clear.

From the BBC.

So, here's what we've gleaned from a government official.

Most secondary school pupils in England won't be back in a classroom until September. It is hoped those with exams next year might get to head back before the summer holidays, but there are no specifics on the timing of that

Nurseries and primary schools won't re-open until the beginning of next month at the earliest. As and when they do, those in Reception, Year 1 and Year 6 will head back first

From Wednesday, in England, there will be no limit on the exercise you go outside to do. You can sit in the park and read. You can sunbathe...

You can meet one person from outside your own household if you stay two metres apart

So, you can sit next to a single friend in the park, but you must socially distance

And, you can drive to parks and beaches in England but you must socially distance when you get there.

Post edited at 20:33
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 glenn0010 10 May 2020
In reply to Wanderer100:

Yeah beacuse of that it makes me think solo wild camping is ok.

I am in shropshire therefor, I think solo camping the shropshire way wouldn't be irresponsible under the new guidlines, considering we can stay outdoors for how long we want and that people can play sports.

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 Stuart William 10 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

Wouldn’t the government answer be that apart from parts of Dartmoor it’s not officially allowed anyway in England? That was always my understanding anyway. In which case, I imagine the last possible answer you want is the government one. 

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In reply to Wanderer100:

> Surely it would only be acceptable if you were able to walk into the wild camping spot from your front door. Even then, the message is still "stay close to home".

Is it? I thought I had to "stay alert" nowadays. 

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 deepsoup 10 May 2020
In reply to Jezz0r:

> You seem to be out of date with the new rules in England.

For most of England the traditional rules on wild camping are that it's fine as long as nobody sees you (and you leave no trace).  Some people might be tempted to remark that they remain unchanged by the pandemic, but I couldn't possibly comment on that.

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 Dave Todd 10 May 2020
In reply to MG:

> Is it? I thought I had to "stay alert" nowadays. 

I think you're right...this presumably means that it's OK to sit in your tent (awake)...but it's not OK to fall asleep...

I'm confused...

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In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> On wild camping we've been adding the government answer to the BMC answer, dividing it by the UKC logbook lockdown, timesing all that by the Police answer and we've got a result of '%/*&@!!?????'

> Hope that helps.

But the question is - once you put that through the Duckworth Lewis equation who has won?

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 gazhbo 11 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

Yes

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 Mark Stevenson 11 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

Moot point. As has already been pointed out, wild camping isn't officially permitted in any general way within England and Wales even in normal times... 

Although if you know the landowner and have their permission, possibly, if you stretch the definition of "unlimited" exercise an awful long way... 

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In reply to Jezz0r:

> Bojo very specifically said you can drive for exercise this evening.

Since when has driving been classed as exercise? 

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In reply to Mark Stevenson:

> Moot point. As has already been pointed out, wild camping isn't officially permitted in any general way within England and Wales even in normal times... 

Yeah, but it is OK if you stay alert and don't get caught.

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In reply to glenn0010:

The underlying regulations probably won't change. These say we must stay at home unless we have a reasonable excuse to leave it. Exercise is in principle a reasonable excuse. All the detail comes from government advice, and while this isn't law it strongly influences what the police and probably the courts regard as reasonable. All the government is now doing is extending the scope of what is reasonable, but the underlying obligation to stay at home remains.

There is some ambiguity if we will be allowed to sunbathe or sit on a park bench, and not have to keep continually moving. However sunbathing for an hour or two is one thing, sleeping all night in a tent could be pushing the boundaries too far.

The places you could wild camp without being seen are probably in areas most hostile to outsiders.

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 Andy Gamisou 11 May 2020
In reply to MG:

> Is it? I thought I had to "stay alert" nowadays. 

Britain's got enough lerts.  I intend to stay aloof.

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 Andy Gamisou 11 May 2020
In reply to Howard J:

> The places you could wild camp without being seen are probably in areas most hostile to outsiders.

Maybe he could try Consett then.

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 HakanT 11 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

Dartmoor haven’t updated their site yet. 
https://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/about-us/how-we-work/coronavirus-update

Until now, the message has been stay away. 

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In reply to Lankyman:

> Not sure how this fits in with not potentially putting MR teams at risk if you have an accident? Maybe you can 'wild' camp beside a road.

That's "should you wild camp", not "is it legal to wild camp", they aren't quite the same question and debatably have opposite answers.  I think it seems to me that climbing is OK within family groups in terms of Bojo's speech, but I'd still say I'm unsure whether it's right to do it yet or not because of e.g. risk to access agreements and of need for the MRT.

Whether it's legal to wild camp is really moot in any case, because if you're doing it right (go remote, pitch after dark, strike early, leave no trace) you basically have no chance of being caught, and if you aren't doing it right you *deserve* to be caught.

Post edited at 07:51
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 Siward 11 May 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Pitching after dark, striking early is quite difficult at this time of year if you want any sleep.

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In reply to Siward:

> Pitching after dark, striking early is quite difficult at this time of year if you want any sleep.

Eh?  It's easily dark by 10pm, how much sleep do you want?

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 Lankyman 11 May 2020
In reply to Siward:

Unless I'm mistaken, the only place in England where you can legally wild camp is Dartmoor NP. However, in the Lakes there is no legal right but landowners traditionally allow it if it's done above the intake walls. Of course, proper wild camping with consideration for site and the environment are required. The largest single landowner is the National Trust and they are happy with responsible wild camping.

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 Oceanrower 11 May 2020
In reply to Darren Jackson:

> Since when has driving been classed as exercise? 

I'm ok...

https://www.casbo.org/content/6-surprising-benefits-motorcycle-riding

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 Siward 11 May 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Sunrise about 4:30 though. If I have to keep moving from 4:30 to 10pm that's a pretty long day isn't it?

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 alex_arthur 11 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

No. Next question please.

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In reply to Siward:

Who says you have to keep moving?  You can sit and cook your dinner, read a book or whatever, just don't put your tent up!

Same with breakfast - up early, strike camp, *then* get the bacon on.

Post edited at 11:07
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 Stu Tyrrell 11 May 2020
In reply to Dave Todd:

As long as you don't fall asleep in echo valley and start snoring, no one will know you are there.

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 deepsoup 11 May 2020
In reply to Stu Tyrrell:

> As long as you don't fall asleep in echo valley and start snoring, no one will know you are there.

Presumably you'll get away with it if you quack though?

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 woppo 12 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

As it is not allowed to go to second homes does a tent/ tarp/ bivi count as a second home thus answering your question

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 Yanis Nayu 12 May 2020
In reply to woppo:

By that logic, presumably umbrellas are banned. 

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 woppo 12 May 2020
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Parasols in the lakes last few weeks;)

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 marsbar 12 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

It seems that it is day trips only. 

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 Andy Hardy 12 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

> After the latest updates,

> It was said that you can play sports with your houshould. 

> Is it allowed to solo wild camp?

> Cheers

The answer (as ever) is: it depends. For now, it really depends on how big your garden is. 😉

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In reply to glenn0010:

> After the latest updates,

> It was said that you can play sports with your houshould. 

> Is it allowed to solo wild camp?

> Cheers


I believe the answer is no.  Government states/said that you must return to your primary residence everyday to sleep and not spend nights at a 2nd home.  Unless you are solo camping during day-light hours, you should be tucked up in your primary bed every night. 

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 Stu Tyrrell 14 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

You could be right me duck.

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 Roadrunner6 14 May 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

> Not sure how this fits in with not potentially putting MR teams at risk if you have an accident? Maybe you can 'wild' camp beside a road.

I'm not sure how this does?

TBH I don't think wild camping is allowed. It seemed to suggest just day trips, but people can still be out in the mountains and hills of northern england, and I wouldn't class wild camping as particularly risky - if it was allowed.

TBH the big issue is your car. The local police don't seem happy, a car left overnight would be a cause for concern/attention. Leave a note then you've stayed out. I'd not. 

Post edited at 18:44
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 toad 14 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

Camping was brought up in tonight's briefing. In summary:

Being outside=low risk

Being in a confined tent=higher risk

Result: its complicated!! We will have to think about this

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 Roadrunner6 14 May 2020
In reply to toad:

> Camping was brought up in tonight's briefing. In summary:

> Being outside=low risk

> Being in a confined tent=higher risk

> Result: its complicated!! We will have to think about this

If solo? or with your missus? Here campsites are opening to only people who are socially distanced, at half occupancy for those sites and for people from that state.

Post edited at 19:11
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In reply to toad:

> Camping was brought up in tonight's briefing. In summary:

> Being outside=low risk

> Being in a confined tent=higher risk

> Result: its complicated!! We will have to think about this

Sounds like a load of tripe.  The risk is presumably really shared areas like toilets/showers.

Meanwhile the reason they don't want wild camping is presumably because the Lakes etc would become littered with tents (and urine/faeces/litter) because the sites are closed.  At the moment the long distance of say a London-Lakes day trip will put many off.

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 J Whittaker 14 May 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Sounds like a pretty good argument.

Id say most who wild camp already have a great appreciation of the places they stay in and with that comes their respect of the environment. 

If you get people wild camping just as a means of being able to stay in places then i totally agree they would probably be more inclined to leave litter, leave turds lying around and be a general nuisance.

That would in turn potentially put a negative spot light on wild camping and have it more regulated and made harder to do in the future.

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 off-duty 14 May 2020
In reply to toad:

> Camping was brought up in tonight's briefing. In summary:

> Being outside=low risk

> Being in a confined tent=higher risk

> Result: its complicated!! We will have to think about this

Have to say I missed the briefing, however camping doesn't seem to fit the reasonable excuse/need categories of the regs for being outside.

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 off-duty 14 May 2020
In reply to off-duty:

Presumably the other basis of this is that you're fairly unlikely to go from "feeling fine" to "needing to be hospitalised" on the same day, thus meaning you'll still only be putting pressure on your local (to home) NHS.

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In reply to toad:

> Camping was brought up in tonight's briefing. In summary:
> Being outside=low risk
> Being in a confined tent=higher risk
> Result: its complicated!! We will have to think about this

BBC's interpretation of what was said:
On camping holidays, Shapps says people have to stay in their homes at night, at the moment, and not stay over anywhere.

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 off-duty 14 May 2020
In reply to FactorXXX:

The guidance (if not the legislation) makes that pretty clear.

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In reply to toad:

To add some context. The answer from Prof Van-Tam was in response to a question about camping and caravan sites in a subsequent stage in relaxation of the lock down and not the current one.

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Is it allowed? Of course not! Nothing is allowed? Stay at home forever! You're basically a murderer just for asking!

I am of the opinion that a solo camp is perfectly acceptable means of staying active, enjoying the outdoors, connecting with nature and maintaining your mental health. Avoiding people is easy to do and there is little to no risk of anything going wrong if you're sensible. Of course eliminating all risk is impossible, so we have to accept some risk in everything we do, or else we really never would leave the house. Ever. (but even that would be risky in itself).

Your family may call you a murderer, the locals may slash your tyres, the police may give you a ticket and you'll probably wish you never asked the UKC forums, but perhaps the reason you asked is that the idea of camping alone somewhere wild being harmful is strange? If so, I'd be inclined to agree. Camp away. Just avoid others and the polis to keep everyone happy.

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 Run_Ross_Run 17 May 2020
In reply to SFM:

What a bunch of twonks. 

A. To do it in the 1st place. 

B. To do it in a group. 

C. To light a fire attracting attention to the fact they did it. 

D. ....... 

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 Gerry 17 May 2020
In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

D.... read the article fully: "Inspector Mark Gee, of the Richmondshire neighbourhood policing team, said: “This was a clear breach of the regulations. Leaving your home address to camp overnight is not allowed."

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 Andy Hardy 17 May 2020
In reply to Gerry:

I can see the additional appeal of risking a fine to add to the wild camp though - like playing hide and seek with the plod, with a £60 bet on the side. 

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 Philb1950 17 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

If it was proper wild camping, there’s no way your average fat plod could get there. Compare our upholders of the law to the lean and mean French equivalent. H&S issues, deep water or high mountains don’t get in their way.

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In reply to Philb1950:

Ah but they have drones these days.

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 Andy Hardy 17 May 2020
In reply to featuresforfeet:

Train to Sheffield, last bus to fox house, boulder til it's pitch black, sneak along to Froggatt, bivy in the cave. Reverse it at dawn. I doubt plod (or anyone else) would ever find out...

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In reply to featuresforfeet:

> Ah but they have drones these days.

They may have drones but I've been playing a lot of Grand Theft Auto recently.  

Seriously, wild camp a couple of km walk from the road in among the trees, set up when it is getting dark and leave early and nobody is going to know or care and even if they noticed they are unlikely to be arsed walking for an hour to tell you off.

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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Totally agree, my drone comment was facetious (though I have got a camouflaged tarp).

Have done stuff like this in more normal times - leaving the car somewhere that won't attract attention overnight might be more of the challenge.

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 off-duty 18 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

It's a no from me. Although the new guidance relaxes the controls on when we can leave our homes, most significantly not placing any limits on the number of times a day we can exercise, or how far we can drive to exercise, we must still be resident in our primary residence. You can't go and stay at a friends, you can't stay in you holiday home, you can't go wild camping somewhere.

There may or may not be another argument about what harm it does, but in terms of adhering to the government guidance on the law, it's a no.

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 off-duty 18 May 2020
In reply to Philb1950:

> If it was proper wild camping, there’s no way your average fat plod could get there. Compare our upholders of the law to the lean and mean French equivalent. H&S issues, deep water or high mountains don’t get in their way.

Yeah. Let's laugh at the fat plod. They let the smallest little thing stop them.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2020-05-14/policeman-s-act-of-heroism-hailed-after-man-rescued-from-canal-in-ashton-under-lyne/

https://news.sky.com/video/kent-police-use-belts-and-rope-to-save-someone-hanging-off-a-large-drop-11967660

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 Phil79 18 May 2020
In reply to Stuart William:

> Wouldn’t the government answer be that apart from parts of Dartmoor it’s not officially allowed anyway in England? That was always my understanding anyway. In which case, I imagine the last possible answer you want is the government one. 

On a related point, Dartmoor NPA have asked that people dont wild camp on Dartmoor at present. Not sure how this sits with the bylaws that allow wild camping , but that's their position at the moment (or it was last week, assume its not changed).  

Post edited at 09:59
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 Phil79 18 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

Here's Dartmoor NPAs take on it. Don't wild camp at present is their message.

https://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/enjoy-dartmoor/outdoor-activities/camping

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In reply to off-duty:

Interestingly this tweet from the same team says specifically "wild camping" is not allowed. https://twitter.com/CopelandPolice/status/1261970532246999041 Has any new legislation been passed with the easing of rules? What's they actual legal basis for issuing a fine? I'm not being facetious - genuinely don't know. I presume with the camper vans if they had got up early and driven somewhere else then they wouldn't have got tickets as it seems that it was the issue of them still being there the next morning that led to the fines, not the when the police first asked them to go home. 

Wild camping is always legally dubious in England, but my understanding is at worse you can be asked to move on by a landowner. From a policing point of view, is it right that normally the police stay out of what's a civil issue? 

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 deepsoup 18 May 2020
In reply to off-duty:

> Yeah. Let's laugh at the fat plod. They let the smallest little thing stop them.

'Fat plod' was unfair, but you can't deny there's not much chance (or necessity) of the police getting involved with someone wild camping discreetly alone well away from the road.

I was in Surprise View car park one time at dusk, just as one of the Millstone raves was apparently kicking off.  There was a steady stream of taxis with slightly confused looking drivers bringing hippies out from Sheffield, and a couple of Derbyshire's finest had just arrived and were cruising up and down the car park in a patrol car.

I was sitting in my van just about to set off for home when they shone their torch in my face so I thought I may as well hop out and wander over to them for a chat.  It was weird, they almost flinched away and really didn't want to talk to me at first as if I was scary.  (I'm not scary.)

They'd had several calls from people in Hathersage apparently.  I asked them wasn't Millstone Edge in South Yorkshire and they agreed.  I asked if the South Yorks police were aware of what was going on.  Yes of course.  But Lawrencefield Quarry is in Derbyshire though isn't it?  Yes.  Is anything happening down there?  Don't know.  Oh, so you've not been down there to take a look then?  Ooh no, we can't go down there, health and safety you see.

I gave the South Yorkshire police a call when I got home just to double check that they knew what was going on, not that there was anything much they could do about it - they said it was the first they'd heard of it, thanks very much for letting them know.

Really can't see those two, assuming they're still in the job, busting someone for wild camping who wasn't stupid enough to do it right next to the road. 

Hm..  e2a: unless they meet them back at the car the following morning I guess.  Echoes the comment above somewhere that discreet overnight parking is probably more difficult to arrange than a discreet wild camp or bivvy at the mo.

Post edited at 11:37
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 Markl 18 May 2020
In reply to glenn0010:

Are you really resorting to social media to help you make decisions?

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 wercat 19 May 2020
In reply to Wanderer100:

> Surely it would only be acceptable if you were able to walk into the wild camping spot from your front door. Even then, the message is still "stay close to home".


I think that is the only case where you could be reasonably confident of not being stopped - unless you are mistaken for someone walking to Appleby-in-Westmorland at the moment.

I suppose walking over the border into the edge of a National Park is possible if you don't have to use and leave a car anywhere.  The police here are still catching people so better take a DPM bivvy bag and camouflage net or just dig a hole in the ground and live in it for a few days

Actually - I wonder if the "Hunted" team have realised they are missing an opportunity to use their drones etc on lockup challengers

Post edited at 09:17
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In reply to wercat:

not read all replies so may have been covered already, no overnight stays are permitted i my understanding, exercise has to be taken and then you go home in same day. 

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 wercat 17:37 Wed
In reply to andrew breckill:

yes, but but it is less clear what happens if you arrive in the area on foot.  Or if you haven't walked far so you are still overnighting in the same geographical area as you started from.  Depends on the exact definition of an "overnight stay".  Does it require an element of non-locality to be forbidden or not?  Are they talking about taking and parking a vehicle or not?

The local police have made much of the distance travelled by the people they have intercepted.  According to local reports wild camping has been going on and I've seen evidence of campfires.

Pretty sure I could get away with walking into the NP with lightweight  bivvy stuff and inconspicuous clothing and disappearing for a few days if I used the right entrypoints but I haven't done it nor do make any recommendation so to do at the moment but I'm sure it is happening

If it is illegal to be away from home overnight at the moment (I'm not sure it is but someone could provide clarification) then wild camping would be intrinsically illegal under any conceivable circumstances unless perhaps you were taking to the countryside for some reason of necessity eg to avoid domestic abuse

Post edited at 17:42
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 Blunderbuss 17:52 Wed
In reply to glenn0010:

If no one sees you, are you even camping... 

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 wercat 18:02 Wed
In reply to Blunderbuss:

just grey shadows in the gloaming

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In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Train to Sheffield, last bus to fox house,

That doesn't sound risky at all...

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