Is bullshitting different to lying? How?

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Removed User 21 Mar 2021

Is it about the importance of the matter? 

Or who the perpetrator is and who the audience?

Or the intent?

Or what?

Or are they the same?

1
 Martin W 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

You might find this useful, from On Bullshit by Harry G Frankfurt:

"It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose."

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bullshit-Harry-G-Frankfurt/dp/0691122946/

 Jon Stewart 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

Here's a good video on this, referencing Frankfurt above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VrkFmMkzwc&ab_channel=THUNK

 Thunderbird7 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

I would say that 'spouting bullshit' is something that some folk do down the pub after a few beers - storytelling gone wrong, that feeds itself and turns into an unbelievable story. Maybe 'Classic Dom' had been to the pub before he sat down in the Downing street garden to tell his story and therefore 'spouted bullshit' about his amazing journey.

Inherently lying about everything is different altogether - being physically unable to tell the truth whenever one opens one's mouth. The latter is what 'the Johnson' does from the moment he wakes up in the morning.

2
 Jon Stewart 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Thunderbird7:

> Maybe 'Classic Dom' had been to the pub before he sat down in the Downing street garden to tell his story and therefore 'spouted bullshit' about his amazing journey.

Dom was doing a special kind of bullshit, where he wasn't trying to convince anyone. He was just putting up a wall of bullshit which he was confident no one was going to disprove.

I've had exactly the same thing in a professional context: I've been called to conferences to be told "this is story: you don't believe it, we know you don't believe it - what are you going to do about that?". That's a bit different to lying where the idea is that the audience believes you (or at least isn't sure).

1
 profitofdoom 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

> Is it about the importance of the matter? > Or who the perpetrator is and who the audience? > Or the intent? > Or what? > Or are they the same?

"Bullshit" in the Cambridge English dictionary - "complete nonsense or something that is not true"

Note the "or"

If you accept this, the answer to your question is "Sometimes yes, sometimes no"

E.g. "I just soloed Indian Face on Cloggy" (said by a beginner), bullshit, lie

"Cloggy is rubbish", opinion, bullshit IMO, not a lie

Next please

Edit, punctuation

Post edited at 16:56
2
 Morty 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Thunderbird7:

> Maybe 'Classic Dom' had been to the pub before he sat down in the Downing street garden to tell his story and therefore 'spouted bullshit' about his amazing journey.

That wasn't bullshitting, it was his, and by agreement, the government and the media's, attempt at gaslighting. 

"Don't be silly, guys, it's not me, it's you..." 

 Thunderbird7 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Morty:

"I'm sorry that you feel I am bullshitting...." [..but I don't give a toss...]

 Big Bruva 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

Also, is being a bullshitter the same as being full of shit?  🤔

 Andy Clarke 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

When I was a headteacher I didn't want to disillusion staff or students and add to their already considerable stress by admitting to ignorance or confusion when this was obviously going to be upsetting for all concerned. I felt occasional  authoritative bullshitting was an important element in the leader skill set. I'm with Wittgenstein on this, "Whereof one does not know, thereof one must bullshit."

Post edited at 19:25
 Blue Straggler 21 Mar 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

Sounds about right to me. Bullshit can include opinion, conjecture and talk about future events that are not impossible. 

eg “the ladies should be allowed to play against the men at Wimbledon, they are easily as good”

”if Daniel Day-Lewis had played Withnail it would have been even funnier”

”I’m going mountaineering in Wyoming, and clipping isn’t hard” 

Post edited at 20:06
 Pbob 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

Bullshitting is a true art. I should know. I represented England in the world bullshitting championships 1997 in Rio de Janeiro.

Removed User 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Bullshit can include opinion, conjecture and talk about future events that are not impossible. 

That's a really helpful insight and dividing tool.  Where it's known, testable, fact "lying" is more appropriate.

 freeflyer 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Andy Clarke:

Is bullshit the same as bollox?

I talk bollox most of the time, especially with mates.

 jethro kiernan 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

Jay from inbetweeners is a Bullshitter

Boris Johnson is a lyer. 


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