UKH

Anybody sorted this out and/or up to speed on what bits to buy?

I’ve currently got two hardwired smoke alarms in the hall and upstairs landing. I figure I’ll not be able to mix and match hardwired and battery powered so will likely opt a battery powered set. I’m not at all keen to be ripping the house apart for cabling or have conduit running here and there.

So…
What reliable brand of alarms to buy?

Does a gas hob require a carbon monoxide detector?

If my boiler is in the (attached) garage do I need a carbon monoxide detector?

Thanks in advance for any input.
 

https://www.mygov.scot/home-fire-safety

In reply to JLS:

Not hot round to it yet, bloody nuisance that it is. I’ll be interested in the replies. I’ll probably have to go completely cableless. One positive though is that apparently new fire alarms don’t react to smoke, so don’t go off when you’re cooking bacon. 

In reply to Graeme G:

I got the impression that you are required to place a heat detector in the kitchen rather than a smoke detector for that reason. Not sure want would then differentiate that from the type in the other rooms if they don’t react to smoke?

I guess if I go to B&Q they have aisles full of this stuff to look at…

In reply to JLS:

To answer one of my own questions… The garage with the boiler in does need a carbon monoxide detector.

In reply to JLS:

But the regulations don't require that the CO detector be interlinked with the other alarms. I already have a CO alarm in my garage, where our boiler lives, and one in the sitting room for the woodburner. I probably should have one in the kitchen on account of the gas hob, but we're planning to replace it with an induction hob next year anyway.

I'm planning to install the Fire Angel wireless battery smoke and heat alarms.  (I might keep some of my existing smoke alarms as well, because they have escape lights which none of the interlinked alarms I've seen so far have got.)

In reply to Martin W:

I’ve been looking at the Fire Angel stuff on the B&Q website. Seems like that’s going to be the typical solution. The Nest and Bosch stuff looks a bit OTT. I’ve never heard of Fire Angel…

In reply to JLS:

Good grief. They've kept rather quiet about this! Do they really expect this to happen at £220 per home if you actually know how to do it and presumably loads more if you don't?

In reply to JLS:

I had mine done last year, but opted for electric ones since I was largely just replacing two old (past their expiry date) mains smoke detectors, added a third smoke detector (my choice since it was utility room and didn’t have one) and the heat detector for the kitchen.

Mine were installed professionally. Electrician installed Ei brand for the smoke and heat if it’s any help. He just checked I had working CO detectors already. Two independent CO detectors are battery powered; one in hall outside boiler cupboard door, and one in kitchen due to gas hob.

CO detectors are Honeywell and Lifesaver brands. The former has previously alerted to a leak from the boiler (a service mistake where a gasket wasn’t replaced when it should have been and didn’t seal correctly when put back on), so I know it worked when it should. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Not that quiet; had been widely in papers, leaflet drop, BBC Scottish and other local news channels all featured it last year even with interviews with ministers as I recall. Also, I was told that F book thingy I don’t use had it being spread around. Deadline had been Feb this year, but put back for a year due to covid.

My electrician said that it’s commonly thought in the trade that it’s impossible for all homes to have them installed by qualified electricians by the deadline. Re costs, he said he was concerned that a cost had been published as he said for the average home he can’t buy the materials for that figure. It is really the cheapest it can be done professionally in a small home so not realistic.

In reply to JLS:

Done a year ago ahead of the regs in case the suppliers /retail upped the price of units as the deadline approached.

You can interlink hardwired and battery, I went Ei and had to change the hardwired base plates and heads (did it myself without an electrician), as my old hardwired units wouldn’t wirelessly interlink with battery units. Down side is Ei is expensive. 
 

Cost a lot more than the £220 trotted out by the Scot Gov.

what nobody has explained is if your property is of an age that building regs says had to have hardwired hall and landing, do you still need hardwired post interlink.  I assumed yes, hence fitted the hybrid system (mix of battery and mains) If you don’t need the hybrid maybe the two hundred quid cost figure is possible.

In reply to JLS:

I've sorted our house.

I went for the Fireangel interlinked stuff (sealed battery, not mains); it's pretty straightforward to set up if you follow the instructions, and you can optionally get an internet gateway for it that lets you view, test, and if necessary silence, the modules via an app.

There weren't really a lot of other options - e.g. the Nest, as well as being expensive, doesn't have a sealed battery so as far as I can tell doesn't actually meet the new legal requirements.

Note that the councils have said they won't be checking or enforcing this in private residences, so it's arguable whether you really have to do it. Not doing so might have consequences for home insurance, though.

I quite like the system and feel it's worth it for us anyway, especially with kids in the house.

So if I bought this: https://www.firedetectionshop.co.uk/p/housing-scotland-act-1987-battery-pow... would it meet and requirements and would I be able to fit it with extremely limited practicalskills?

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's not difficult at all with the battery powered units.  Literally a matter of pushing 2 buttons with the fire angel alarms to interlink, and no more difficult than normal fire alarms to actually mount.  Annoying irrelevant for most households unfortunately, no way most would be unable to hear an alarm going off in the next room...

The battery models are £40-50 each so it quickly mounts up!!  I'd expect that to shoot up as the deadline approaches.  It's going to become a standard home insurance question I'd bet ☹️

In reply to Robert Durran:

Should be fine (as long as you don't have too many rooms).

Read and follow the instructions and you'll link them no trouble.

You'll have to attach them to the ceiling with a couple of screws too (or use adhesive magnetic strips if your ceiiling is smooth, I got these https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B074PJSMRY and they were handy)

In reply to StuDoig:

It's another f*cking conspiracy between government and insurance companies.  I doubt they're going to dramatically cut premiums if this stuff is reduces their risk.

Yes, I know its the SNP but they've got this one wrong and before you start laughing the exact same groups who lobbied for this will most likely persuade Westminster to do the same sh*t.

In reply to Robert Durran:

If you cook and heat with gas you’ll need to throw in carbon monoxide detector(s).

In reply to skog:

Seems like that is going to be the standard choice.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

Intresting point about the hardwired regs. I wonder if some insurance policies with be invalidated when people inevitably replace the hardwired with battery…

In reply to Climbing Pieman:

I never saw any of that and only knew about it because the chap who services our boiler told me so I'm with Robert on the keeping it quiet bit an  there are probably plenty of folk who don't know about it.

In reply to JLS:

I've already got one which was installed with my boiler.

In reply to JLS:

I have been ignoring this requirement, but will obviously need to take action if my insurance demands it. (Until then, it can wait - nobody is going to be enforcing anything.)

My technical question is: how exactly does the interlinking work?

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Might not be a case of insurance demanding it. They might just refuse to pay out if anything happens. I imagine they’ll likely hide compliance in amongst all the terms and conditions.

In reply to Graeme G:

I don't get the logic of insurance companies demanding it. If you look at the regs, this is all about "personal safety" and not about building safety.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure insurance companies will demand it, but in my mind there's a logical gap there.

BTW - nest is non compliant! We got 2 nest units last year as we needed it for building warrant, and my reading of the regs led me to believe they'd be OK as we have an open plan kitchen, but it seems like they're not.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Mine use Radio Frequency interlink other manufacturers may be different. Broadly depending on brand, installing then pressing either the test button in a particular sequence/length of time, Or pushing a pin in a hole and then running round and pressing the test buttons on the ones you then want to link. 

Each alarm has a specific RF identifier so that if you live for example in a semi-detached house your alarm activation won’t trigger the neighbours even if you have the same type/brand (so long as you don’t set up simultaneously….Sod’s law it will happen to some folks).

In reply to Graeme G:

Will also need to be in place if your selling or renting out a house.  

In reply to JLS:

They're a pretty well-known brand in the sector.  The local Fire Service install Fire Angel smoke detectors when they do home safety visits.

In reply to JLS:

Another logical fallacy about being void for insurance...

Nest protect, used widely around the world. Now "unsafe" in Scotland? 

Huh? 

In reply to JLS:

CO detector is not required for an appliance that is used solely for cooking. See here:

Edit to add: paragraph 17.5 is your friend

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/advice...

Hope that saves you a few quid.

Our boiler is in a (draughty) garage and I’m still not clear as to whether it will need a CO detector. I’d never hear it through the granite wall! But I have one that was bundled with my fire alarms so might as well.

Jason

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

They wrote some BS/EN standards into the law.  Presumably, if it is true Nest equipment can't be used it is not compliant with those standards.  

If you were trying to sell the products to customers who weren't legally compelled to buy the requirement for tamperproof batteries with a ten year life span would be a huge negative in terms of cost and inconvenience.

In reply to JLS:

PS. I got the standard bundle here:

https://fireguardplus.co.uk/bundle?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy6yy3bmD9AIVh6ztCh0PYw...

Very easy to install. Took a while to arrive because of stock levels. Communication was rapid when I queried the time being taken.

Jason

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Nah, we are safe from this in England and Wales - Rees-Mogg knows that all you need in the event of a fire is 18th Century common sense.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

From my reading (but I'm not an expert) it's the *heat* alarm part that cusses the issue. Scotland has said the system must have a heat alarm in the kitchen and nest doesn't comply with that bit.

It also says in a open plan it can be out of the kitchen, and *should* be a heat alarm. That's an argument I'm soon to have with building control. I suspect I'll lose.

In reply to DaveHK:

Fair comment. There have been many things over my life that I have missed at the time despite publicity.

Maybe I wouldn’t have heard about it many times in a “normal” year, but it was with lockdowns/restrictions last year I watched far too much tv, read newspapers, etc. It also caught my attention quickly at the time, as I had been planning on replacing my existing smoke detectors which were long overdue for replacement. 

After I heard, I started mentioning to friends and neighbours and everyone I mentioned it to already knew, so I stopped. I felt at the time that I had been the last to hear about it in my circle!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm an avid news consumer and this is the first I've heard of it too!

In reply to digby:

FWIW I heard about it anecdotally from neighbours towards the end of 2020. Since then, nothing, until a leaflet appeared in my letter box about a month ago. That's absurdly short notice. Thanks, St Nicola.

In reply to Robert Durran:

It would meet the requirements, but I think it's an odd spec since the wireless modules are supplied separately - and add to the cost.

You can get three interlinked smoke alarms and one interlinked heat alarm from B&Q for £200 (less if you have a B&Q card club discount voucher):

https://www.diy.com/departments/fireangel-pro-connected-battery-powered-sma...

https://www.diy.com/departments/fireangel-pro-connected-battery-powered-hea...

For a quid or two more than the cost of the package you linked to you could add the "hub" that allows you to test the alarms from one place, and find out which one is alarming should something amiss occur:

https://www.diy.com/departments/fireangel-pro-connected-wireless-room-contr...

In reply to Martin W:

Thanks!

In reply to JCurrie:

Cheers for that. That’s saved £20.

To the thread…

After sussing out what I wanted it wasn’t possible to get all the bits in one store. I had figured on going to B&Q this morning and having it all installed bit teatime. As it is I’ll be waiting for bits to arrive to or be collected next week from three places…

In reply to Martin W:

B&Q are out of stock of some of the kit. The battery power Fireangel smoke detectors being particularly hard to find.

The stuff Robert sourced is aimed at the trade hence the “have to build it yourself” thing. I got most of the stuff from Screwfix and Toolstore but had to go to FDS for a battery smoke detector for the living room. I was initially keen on the WiFi box until I discovered it need to be plugged in to the mains and also plugged into your router. I’m going with the  battery power, non-WiFi, controller.

In reply to DaveHK:

I think I’d been vaguely aware of it for a while, just hadn’t really registered the full implications. I had optimistically convinced myself that in was just about bringing old houses up to the same standard and my house would probably be ok already. I suppose it’s been in the back of my mind waiting for a rainy day in November; that day has come.

In reply to Dr.S at work:

And some of these…

In reply to JLS:

Heat detector in kitchen 

Carbon monoxide near boilers 

You can get the interlinked smoke detectors online and they just have to talk to each other so could be Bluetooth and as far as I am aware it’s not one in very room .. I had a fire officer out and have done heat detector in kitchen , carbon monoxide alarms ( also put one by open/ log burner too) and then I’ll do the Bluetooth alarms for each floor - I think that’s right !

In reply to Sarah Byrne:

Yeah, heat detector in kitchen, smoke detector in hallway, upstairs landing (if you have one) and living room.

It appears the requirement for wiring to the mains has fallen be the way side but I’d be surprised if that wasn’t still lurking some an insurance policy clause.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Realistically if they aren't making a fuss about it now there's zero chance average people who don't give a f*ck will have one by February.  Quite likely the Government will notice nobody has done it and a lot of people don't have a couple of hundred quid spare and extend it by a year. 

Assuming insurance policies which renewed in 2021 won't have a clause about a law that doesn't come into force until February 2022 this so it's more something to worry about when they come up for renewal.

In reply to JCurrie:

How are you getting on with the Fireguard system?

The standard bundle didn't suit my house so I emailed them about buying an extra alarm.

They were very accommodating about tailoring a system to suit.

In reply to JLS:

Just did a quick review and it looks like I’ll need to spend anywhere from £300 to £500. Merry fecking Xmas 

In reply to JimSh:

They seem fine.

Easy to interconnect. Easy to install (smooth ceiling required for the adhesive strip supplied). Loud on testing. LED is unobtrusive when it flashes each minute (unlike a CO monitor I had previously installed). No experience of their sensitivity, fortunately!

Jason

In reply to Graeme G:

I ended up spending £360. That includes a £35 control panel that wasn’t essential but figured it would probably make life easier.

I hope there aren’t any Scottish Government ministers holding stock in these alarm companies.  

I suspect Boris and his mates have just see an “opportunity”.  

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

That's actually sensible.  I had a smoke alarm before in our main living area which is open plan with the kitchen and it kept going off for minor cooking issues like burnt toast so I took the battery out.

Of course these damn things are much more expensive because of the 10 year batteries and interlinking and tamper proof and they deafen you in the whole house not just the room they are in.

I wish governments that think it is a smart idea to pass laws that folk have to spend money on sh*t they don't want would also pass a law that folk need to be given the money to buy said sh*t.

In reply to StuDoig:

Unable to hear in the next room……

I agree, however I listened to an interesting radio conversation with an academic about this regulation change and who was explaining that young kids asleep or in waking sleeping don’t respond to alarms unless directly in their immediate room/directly outside.  Something along the lines of the following kiddie thought process ‘there is a noise, that noise is where parents are, because parents present I do not need to act; it must be in hand I can stay asleep’ versus ‘this noise is in my area I must act’.

He thought the reg changes were good for this reason and the fact that many people fit and forget and their current alarms will be out of date/non functional. Thus the new regs will result in more operational alarms.

spending the cash was painful!

Is this a first - retrospective legal coercion to upgrade properties to current standards?  If it is, there is a long slippery slope....

In reply to MG:

I wonder if they'll decide all buildings should have cavity wall insulation - should be interesting trying to do that to Edinburgh Castle.

In reply to JLS:

We moved house earlier in the year and got this done before properly moving in, we were getting other electrical stuff done anyways. I actually heard about it through the local FB group but otherwise would have been oblivious like lots of others. I believe it got pushed back a year because of covid so now has the Feb 2022 deadline. 

We've now got a smoke alarm in lounge and hall, heat alarm in the kitchen and CO detector next to the boiler. 

Having a heat detector in the kitchen and not having the blooming smoke alarms go mental every time we burn toast or butteries is brilliant. 

There seems to be a lot of confusion over what's required and not required

In short this is the basic requirement.

1x heat detector in kitchen

1x smoke detector in room that is most frequented during the daytime(normally living room)

1x smoke detector on each landing/hallway

All of the above must be interlinked. Of course you could put a smoke detector in every room of your home if you so wished, but they all have to be interlinked.

In addition a carbon monoxide must be fitted within 1-3 meters of every fossil fuel burning apparatus(gas hobs/cookers are not classed as such), including those that burn gas, oil, coal and wood.

The alarms should be fitted in the room with the appliance or, if it is an enclosed boiler, just outside the enclosure. If you have your boiler in an attached garage you only need to fit the CM detector within the garage. If you have any apparatus within the house then you need to fit a CM detector on each floor of the house with at least one adjacent to the bedrooms.  

You also need to fit an alarm in any room that has a flue running through it.

The CM detector doesn't need to be interlinked to the smoke/heat detector system

Alarms can be mains or battery powered. If the alarm is battery powered then the battery should last for the life of the alarm. However since 1992, all new builds had to have had the smoke heat detector system hard wired with battery back up. If your property is hard wired you cannot replace it with a battery only system and must maintain to a level of what was originally installed or install a higher specification system.

HTH

In reply to scotthldr:

Where have you seen that written down?

I’ve gone down that route as I suspected it may be the case but I couldn’t find anything to confirm it.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Yep I agree, got ours done in good time. I know loads of people that still have no idea about it, but I guess it will only be an issue if you sell your home. Not surprisingly it will not apply to council houses.

In reply to JLS:

It’s buried within the IEE Regulations and within Building Standards documentation. Failure to comply with either, could see you ending up in court, along with nullifying your home insurance and in breach of terms and conditions of your mortgage, if you have one.

In reply to ERNIESHACK:

Council stock are all fitted or scheduled. Im sure its a requirement to private let too - landlords responsibility.

In reply to scotthldr:

Thanks for that summary. Really helpful.

Where do you get this bit from? Our house was built c.1994 and we def don’t have a hard wired heat detector system.

In reply to JLS:

Having looked quickly, I think the Building Regulations require wire smoke alarms.  Since you can't go backwards with Building Regs, once you have wired system, this means you have to keep a wired system.

The requirement to install smoke alarms in existing properties seems to comes under the slightly different "Tolerable Standard" requirements, which is different legislation, and only requires battery operated ones to be fitted retrospectively.

In reply to Graeme G:

Building Regs in 1992, stated that each new build must have had at least one hard wired smoke detector. Obviously I can’t answer for your house, but what may have happened and was common with larger housing developments was all planning/building applications may have been passed prior to it becoming legislation, but it took several years to complete the development. Basically a loophole in the controls of the day. 

Another point that seems to cause confusion is that current Building Regs state: If material alterations have been made including external extensions or loft/garage extensions then a hard wired detector system must be installed. Whether this applies to the alteration area alone or means that such a system must be extended throughout the entire preexisting property, isn’t clear from reading the Regs alone.

In the case of JLS above, where he/she currently has two hard wired detectors, but under the new Scottish requirements will probably need at least another smoke and a heat and all interlinked. Then I would argue that they are in fact updating the currently installed system. Whether the powers that be see it like that is another matter.

In reply to MG:

Surely it's arguable that moving to a wireless system is going forward not backwards?

The benefits of being hard wired to the mains now seem a bit fussy if we are obligated to replace the unit every time the internal battery gives up the ghost anyway.

In reply to scotthldr:

Thanks. I think that’s the likely answer why we don’t have hard wired.

In reply to scotthldr:

You would assume the whole law process has taken into consideration what's currently on the statute books.  It's not like we are talking about an update to some archaic law lost in time. I'm curious why the guidance to Joe Public is a bit wooly on some of these technical issues.  Is the assumption that we are all going to pay professionals to update the system and these professionals have received better guidance as to what's required? This is just a rhetorical question really.

In reply to JLS:

I think the process was

Grenfall

Scottish ministers: This is terrible.  We must do something.  Smoke detectors!!

Civil Servants:  You can't apply building regs retrospectively.  But here is a law that can be changed

SCottish ministers: Let's do it.

Everyone:  This is mess, who is going to to install them.  Who is going pay

Scottish ministers: Errr.

In reply to MG:

It's very New Zealand/Australia, which are protectionist economies - they have lots of regulation that forces the use of professionals where this really isn't necessary.

The key difference between a block of flats and a house is what happens if it catches fire.  If a house catches fire, you get out.  If anything, improving the rules on evacuation from upstairs in new homes (i.e. mandating some form of emergency escape facility to be fitted) would do as much as linking detectors given how loud the things are.

Having said that, there's no reason wireless linked detectors should be expensive or hard to install, the burglar alarms aren't.  I don't see a lot to gain, with the 10 year sealed batteries, from forcing the installation of wired systems.

In reply to MG:

There was already a cost to pay - too often was needlessly paid by taxpayer for thousands of stand alone detectors along with many of hours of paid work to install them and associated admin.  There's also the opportunity cost...

In reply to MG:

That’s exactly what happened, typical current Scottish Government incompetence.  They rush everything through without proper thought, just so they can say “we did this, we did that”.

You just have to look at the Covid fiasco the Scottish Government created, they more or less followed the UK stance, but with a delay of two weeks, just to make it look that they were experts making their own decisions.

In August this year my brother was up visiting from England. He retired from the Fire Service last year and his final position was of Area Commander with Community Fire Safety being one of his responsibilities. His Brigade area covers some of the most densely populated areas in the UK. When I showed him the new Scottish legislation(as I’ll have to upgrade our Mothers home), he couldn’t believe it nor could understand the thinking behind it. Yes it may safe a live or two, but to make it law for every dwelling house in Scotland to be compliant at the owners expense, is beggars belief.

In reply to JLS:

Not just the battery ones with a sealed internal battery. The mains detectors have to be changed on the same time scale as the internal battery ones (assuming they are all the 10 year service life).

My hardwired system has user replaceable batteries - standard Duracell 9V alkaline - for the event of mains failure periods. I was told these last maybe 3 year before they need replacement. Otherwise, the detectors installed all have a working life of 10 years and have replace by dates on them to that effect.

In reply to scotthldr:

Is that actually the case - i.e. does the legislation actually say that any alarm over and above the minimum requirement has to be interlinked to the rest of the system?

I wasn't aware of that.  I knew about having a CO alarm in each room where there is a fuel-burning appliance (note: wood is not a fossil fuel!) but not that you have to have one on every other floor in the building floor as well.  Do you have a reference to that handy?

In reply to Martin W:

Sorry don’t have the reference handy at the moment, but a quick Google search of Carbon Monoxide detectors will show you what is required.

The content of the system has to be interlinked,so whether you install the basic requirement or exceed the requirements it is still the same system.

In reply to Martin W:

The new rules are  here

https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/

And the (separate) building regs here

https://www.gov.scot/policies/building-standards/monitoring-improving-build...

In reply to MG:

EPCs.  I imagine the type of work required to upgrade many properties to fulfil government “net-zero” promises will make replacing smoke alarms look like small beer!  

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

I don't think EPCs require anything do they?  You just get a bad mark!

Probably true.  I am sure things will become more coercive on insulation etc, which is probably required.  I am also sure it will lead to a lot of shoddy work and damage to good houses, unfortunately.

The smoke thing rankles as it seems unecessarily intrusive and nanny-state.  If I want to risk being burnt in my own house, that's my business!

In reply to JCurrie:

After reading this thread on Sat I looked at the link, decided what was for me and ordered - arrived yesterday - will leave it to the weekend to install - hopefully easy enough.

In reply to subtle:

They don't seem to offer a mains powered option which might be ok for older properties but it seems not for modern houses that already have mains powered devices.

In reply to JLS:

Yes, mine is an older house and only with battery powered devices which I had stuck up myself - now will have a far better system, with a 10 year liefspan.

In reply to subtle:

Sorted then.

In reply to MG:

Minimum EPC rating already required for rental properties, which is being raised (the aim I think is for owner-occupied to follow in the 2030's). 

In reply to MG:

Not sure why the Grenfell tower disaster should have any bearing on legislation for fitting smoke detectors.

The residents of Grenfell tower were more than aware that the building was on fire, it's just that the system in place to tackle fires in the building were critically compromised by building alterations.

I really hope that the Scottish government aren't pushing this scheme based on this premise.

In reply to gethin_allen:

They are

https://www.gov.scot/news/changes-to-fire-safety-laws/

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Are you sure? 2nd gen Nest Protect do have heat sensors in them.

https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9251133?hl=en

In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

Needs to conform to BS 5839-6:2019,  I've no idea if nest (2nd gen) do?

Edit: oh wait thats the heat alarm in a kitchen rule.  BS 5446-2:2003 is the heat detector code it needs to meet

In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

The Government seem sure in their guidance! They are saying - “Please note that the Nest Protect System will not meet the standard. This is because they do not meet the requirements for a heat alarm under the relevant British Standard. British Standard (BS 5839-6:2019) states that only heat alarms should be installed in kitchens.“ - within this https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/ which was last updated 10th Sept 21. 

In reply to Climbing Pieman:

Fair enough. Just seen this on a Tech Spec for a Nest Protect btw. No idea what the relevant standards actually mean though.
 

Compliant with the following standards:

• BS EN 50291-1 - Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises
• BS EN 50271:2010 - Electrical apparatus for the detection and measurement of combustible gases, toxic gases or oxygen
• BS EN 14604:2005 - Smoke alarm devices
• BS EN 50292:2002 - Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises. Guide on the selection, installation, use and maintenance
• UL 2034 - Single and Multi Station Carbon Monoxide Alarms
• UL 217 - Single and Multi Station Smoke Alarms

Suitable for installations complying to BS 5839-6:2019 Grade D2

In reply to MG:

And they wonder why nobody trust a word that politicians say. 

In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

A further google tonight and it seems Google (well “googlenestcommunity” forum post by a Community Manager - I assume that is officially part of google) have just acknowledged (a month ago) that the Nest Protect does not meet the new Scottish requirements -

“We’re aware of the proposed legislation changes to the fire and smoke alarm standard in Scotland requiring households to have interlinked heat and smoke alarms. Nest Protect cannot function as a heat alarm due to specific hardware and functional requirements of those devices. So, beginning February 2022,  Nest Protects will not meet these new requirements due lack of interconnection with a compatible heat alarm.”

Ref: https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Nest-Protect/Updates-on-Nest-Protect... .

In reply to Climbing Pieman:

These things are becoming global consumer products, a country like Britain thinking it can dictate its own standards is stupid, the outcome is going to be cutting ourselves off from the newest and best products. 

I wonder if we'll eventually get these sensors built in to products like Amazon Echo.  It would be a lot cheaper just to stick in the sensor on something that already has a power supply, a display, a network connection than as a separate box.  But stupid standards and laws could make it pointless.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Are you going to have all these devices attached to your ceiling? I suppose you watch your telly lying in bed.

There's a good reason why smoke/heat detectors need to be located where they are.

In reply to Maggot:

I've already got an Echo in most rooms.  Google and Amazon are working on an integrated system of many different types of devices with good apps to control them.  The teams at Google and Amazon working on home automation are huge and well funded, they make good stuff that sells in huge volumes at low cost and I want to access that.

I don't think it matters whether a smoke detector is on the ceiling or at cabinet height. You can smell smoke just fine standing on the ground.  

There is, but very possibly the smart engineers at Google and Amazon can figure out a way round it.  It's not for standards bodies to be prescriptive and rule out solutions they didn't think of.  Especially standards bodies in a 60 million person country.  It's not worth Google or Amazon's time to do special engineering for the UK on new products.  We will get products re-engineered for the UK a year after the global one comes out and get charged more for the privilege.  

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

It most certainly does matter if you are using smell or, as most smoke detectors do, ionising or optical detection. Smoke rises because it is hot and therefore will be detected at ceiling level first.

Building regulations are performance-based.  You don't have to follow the Technical Handbook  if you can meet the standards in other ways.  This particular law is of course under different legislation the Scottish Government brought in and is prescriptive...  

... so it's actually government in a country of 6 million doing this, largely to show it is Doing Something

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You're thinking of the current poxy government of a four million person country making the prescriptions in this case.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Showing your age a bit there. Scotland's population exceeded 4 million in 1891. Do try to keep up. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Nice to see you addressing the actual point, Harry. But I accept your correction, and will rephrase:

You're thinking of the current poxy government of a five and a half million person country making the prescriptions in this case.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

It's not though...

"British Standards (BS) are the standards produced by the BSI Group which is incorporated under a royal charter and which is formally designated as the national standards body (NSB) for the UK."

In reply to Naechi:

The only body being prescriptive in the overall case under discussion here is the poxy Scottish Government which, as pointed out above, has completely misunderstood any lessons which might be learned from the Grenfell tragedy.

Great business for smoke alarm companies and electricians, though.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

"> ...  It's not for standards bodies to be prescriptive and rule out solutions they didn't think of.  Especially standards bodies in a 60 million person country. 

You're thinking of the current poxy government of a four million person country making the prescriptions in this case."

The Scottish government decided that not only their own stock of houses for rent and privately let houses/flats but all houses in Scotland should have the same level of fire detection (Yes, improving fire safety off the back of Grenfell)...

British Standards is the "poxy" organisation requiring interlinked heat detectors meet a certain standard.

Grenfell was a clusterduck, exasperated by non-enforcement of British Standards and building regs with a dash of corruption thrown in.

In reply to Naechi:

Is the interlinking of distinct alarms which is being mandated by the Scottish Goverment imposed by a British Standard?

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Only seem to be asking for detectors that meet the standard for smoke and heat detectors. Which is not set by scotgov...

In reply to Naechi:

It's  the scotgov  enforcing  this particular standard.  There is nothing wrong with having a standard, the problem is making it and only it the way to avoid breaking the law.  There are in fact many other smoke alarm standards which they could have specified, or they could have given a performance requirement as the Building Standards do.  But they chose to be prescriptive.

In reply to MG:

What's wrong with BSI? Got to pick a line somewhere.

"The British Standards Institution (BSI) is the national standards body of the United Kingdom."

If they scotgov picked a lesser standard for updating policy the opposition would tear into them. If someone died from an (updated) detector failure you can imagine the votes of no confidence and media storm?

In reply to Naechi:

Bollocks. As I pointed out  Building Regulations work fine with functional requirements.  In fact Scotland's were ahead of many places in moving in that direction. There is no need for the standard to be "lesser", and there is nothing wrong with the BSI standard, but there are, or may be future, alternatives. 

Does anyone else find this whole debacle somewhat ironic, in that the Scottish Government insist that through law these detectors have to meet a certain British Standard, when at the end of the day they want nothing to do with Britain🤷‍♂️

In reply to scotthldr:

Its a BS EN standard.  So European but adopted in the UK

In reply to scotthldr:

It's not ironic.   It is symptomatic of not being an independent country.  

When BS just rubber stamped EN standards it was a waste of space but not actively harmful.  If it starts making its own, different, standards it is actively harmful.  No global industry is interested in inserting bullsh*t from a country the size of the UK in its product development and increasing time to market.  Making special British rules just means you will get products a generation behind what are being sold in the US and EU and they'll cost more.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Changed your tune.

No. But they are very interested in inserting well-researched UK standards. Many EN standards are in fact UK in origin, with France and Germany  being the other main contributors.  The size of a country is irrelevant. It's the quality and utility of a standard that matters. DNV standars from tiny Norway are widely used, for example

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You might not be aware but a lot of British Standards were adopted by the EU as the UK system was actually ahead of many European countries. I had a friend whom was a senior civil service head of department and he spent a large chunk of time in the 1990s persuading his EU counterparts not to undermine elements of BS which they were importing into EU, which had been hard won.  He spent the rest of the time beating his head against a brick wall to try and get ministers to actually read the briefs he wrote for them.  The honourable exception was John Major.

….but never let the opportunity for a bit of prejudice to pass you by.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I don't think you understand the difference between a smoke detector and a human nose.

• Smoke detectors detect particulates.
• The human nose detects aromatic molecules.

These are not the same thing.  As you may be aware, the mean free path of particulates is quite different to that of small aromatic molecules, and so their diffusive behaviour is very different.  Smoke in a room tends to rise and pool around the ceiling more than aromatic molecules. 

Further, there are other reasons to put safety critical systems on the ceiling and not at shelf height - it protects them from accidental damage, being buried under junk blocking their sensors from free access to the room air and so on.  

I'm sorry, but this is just BS. As in Bullshit.  Are you just making this up?

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

It isn't the 1990s.  Whether the BS standards were better in the 1990s makes absolutely no difference today.

The point I keep making is that electronics is a global industry.  The big players like Google and Amazon have moved into home automation in a serious way.  They are developing integrated systems with voice control and apps and covering many different things - lights, heating, thermostats on radiators, door bells, security cameras, burglar alarms and now fire detection.  These guys have the budget and the skills, they are going to win.

What they will do is design a product for the US and EU markets.  If cover those two they've got most of the rich consumers.    A country like the UK which makes itself a nuisance by having different rules isn't going to get special features or design changes in new products because it would push out time to market.  It will get addressed by getting a B team of engineers to tweak the product that's already in the market.  The UK will get products a generation behind and at a higher price.

In reply to wintertree:

I think you are missing my point.  It isn't about technical detail.

Google and Amazon are going to own the home-automation market.  They've got the money and the talent to do it.   They are going to build the devices they want to build and when there are technical challenges they'll spend money on R&D and solve them.  They may very well do things differently from old school fire detection companies.

For example the Nest alarm has a smoke detector and it solves the false-alarm issue when somebody has a shower by also having a humidity sensor.  That's a different approach from using a heat sensor to avoid false alarms.  I've no idea whether it is as effective.  It doesn't matter, the point is they will think about other ways of doing things and they have enough smart people and R&D money they'll very likely find one that works,

If a small country writes prescriptive standards which force one approach when the best teams in the industry are innovating they will very likely cut themselves off from the best available products.

Similarly, maybe 10 Echo type devices with a fire sensing capability one in every room of the house, while individually not as good as a custom designed smoke alarm, taken together reduce the risk from fire enough that there's no justification for a separate fire detection system.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

The thing is it does matter because people die if its not as effective.  This isnt the same as with the latest iphone. A good standard will  ensure safety critical items are effective,  not just marketable.  The question here is whether a performance-based standard would be as effective. 

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

To Echo and similar devices have battery power backup or are they just mains operated? 

Not Scotland, but our smoke alarms are mains powered (and interlinked) but also have battery backups. Power cuts aren't common, but IME they are more frequent than house fires.

I can see the benefits of having fire detection devises built into smart lightbulbs (generally located in the ceilings). BUT personally I quite like the concept of critical safety equipment being stand alone, so it can't get messed with, turned off or moved out of the way.

In reply to Jenny C:

This has I think been buildings regs for wiring in England for some time, so it comes with new builds and major rewires; I’m surprised the Scottish government are elevating it to a higher urgency.  This last thing I’d want is to have to have contractors in the house whilst the Scottish government is failing to control the spread of covid.  Building codes catch up eventually; I can see an argument for making it mandatory sooner in HMOs and tenements but otherwise what is the justification for the rush?  Is there a cost/benefit analysis?  I’m skeptical that there aren’t better uses of people’s money.

Power failure is also more likely to happen during a house fire, especially if it’s an appliance fault that starts it…

Well, quite.  I also like that smoke and heat alarms are simple, robust devices without an internet connection or other firmware that leaves them open to crashes, failures due to off site failures and hacking.

Being hard wired and out of reach, a toddler can’t unplug one of my smoke alarms and build a nest for it, for example…

In reply to MG:

All the UK and Scotland need to do is get their standards which affect electronics equipment from either the US or the EU.  

The big companies will always design equipment that can access the EU and US markets.

Unless you think the UK standards developers are in some way better than the EU one - who obviously has a larger budget and gets input from all the big companies - why on earth not use their standards.  

And in general technical standards should specify what the product needs to do, not how it achieves it so engineers have scope to innovate.  They shouldn't write 'you must use an X sensor' they should write 'under these test conditions you must detect the fire in X seconds'.

In reply to wintertree:

This thread is now peak TiE

 - We start off with "BS standards are crap" as a proxy for I hate the English

- He discovers the smoke alarm standard is actually an adopted EN standard and suddenly its OK

- Its pointed out that many EN standards are of BS origin and we are back to  them being crap

- He believes US tech bros will solve complex problems that the likes of Honeywell have wrestled with for years, despite Nest etc being barely functional for switching on the heating.

- He makes numerous wild assertions about topics he clearly has no understanding of

In reply to wintertree:

That is an absolutely compelling argument for delaying this law for another year.  The incremental risk of not having a fancy new fire alarm for one more year is almost certainly smaller than the risk of having a tradesman in your house to install it.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

In many areas they are.  UK standards are widely adopted elsewhere, including by CEN.

As has been explained to you several times.  EN standards are often derived from BS standards and vice versa, and also ISO standards

Yes, a point I have made repeatedly in this thread. 

There is however a  problem with such performance-based standards.  The question becomes what is the performance that is required and who judges if its been met.  Even in your example we need to define the test conditions, what we mean by a fire and what we mean by X seconds.  None of those are trivial and there is an argument that saying use *this* particularly device in safety critical applications is safer and avoids ambiguity (ref. Grenfell)

In reply to MG:

BS Standards are crap because the whole idea of small/medium sized countries making their own standards for global industries is crap.  It's peak Brexit nonsense.  The benefit of the EU to industry is one set of rules for 27 markets.

Some of them are, not all of them and the direction of travel is to replacing EN standards with British ones. It should be replacing even more BS standards with EN and eventually getting rid of BS altogether. 

Why doesn't Ireland think it needs to write its own standards for every f*cking thing? It seems to be doing a lot better than the UK at attracting tech industry.

What I said was there's no point in arguing about how things were in the 1990s.

Of course they will.  Honeywell lost the plot decades ago. Nest is on the consumer tech product development path.  It's going to get a f*ckton of money put behind it, it is going to hire the best people out of legacy companies like Honeywell and it is going to win.

I am prepared to bet I know a hell of a lot more about the dynamics of the electronics industry than you do.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Giveaway corporation tax is how that happened; nothing else.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

That is outright racism.  It's the English 'Irish are thick' myth which has been going on for centuries.

They're not thick.  I spent a few years working for tech VCs and I visited companies in Ireland just as often as companies in England despite Ireland being a far smaller country.  They are very good at electronics and medtech, they are better at European languages, they engage with europe properly and they have excellent contacts with the US due to the Irish diaspora.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

eh!! How the hell do you get to that from Rob's comment.

Incidentally

https://www.nsai.ie/

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Take your 'racism' charge, and shove it, pal. Giveway corporation tax rates were the explicit Irish tactic - just ask Apple, for example.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

What you said was

Which is bollocks. The Irish wanted to develop tech industry, they had strong science and engineering education and they developed a consistent set of policies to encourage investment.  The skill base, the strong engagement with Europe, English speaking with good European language skills to deal with customers on the continent and the interest of the Irish diaspora in the US in engaging with Ireland are very strong reasons to locate in Ireland.  Put in low tax as well and it becomes a complete no-brainer.

In reply to MG:

You aren't explaining anything, you are telling me Spitfire stories to try and justify something which makes no sense at all.   Globalisation means every country having its own standards agency is nonsense.  The last thing a global industry needs is 20 or 50 overlapping and inconsistent standards its design needs to meet.  What would you do if you were designing a new product for Google/Nest?  It is pretty simple.  You design it so you can sell it in the US and EU.  Then you've got the richest consumers covered. 

Once the new product is done and in the market the marketing people come and say 'we could make a bit more if we do the UK too' and you decide whether you want to put a smaller team onto designing a special for the UK.  The UK gets its version one or two years later - by which time the next one is probably nearly done for the US - and it gets charged more because of the extra cost of making a special version.

That's what the standards guys should be doing. Designing test cases, not designing products.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I will shove aside all the arguments about BS/EN/ISO etc standards and state something far more basic: If you feel like relying on Google hardware and software for critical safety is a good idea, I have a bridge to sell to you. Sincerely, a developer that that has to deal with Android on a regular basis and has also been burnt by the great number of products they have discontinued and bricked in the process.

As soon as whoever is running the Nest project is out of Google, someone else will come along and scrap it all. It's their modus operandi.