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I'm glad i'm not a paddler...

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I'm probably a bit late to the party on this one but am going to rant away anyway. I've got a nice inflatable canoe which has seen many an adventure accessing DWS spots, exploring hidden coves etc.. and am fortunate enough to live very near a the Trent where I spend many a happy hour paddling about.

Due to a rather mixed forecast yesterday and my trusted belayer and wife's disdain for post-apocalyptic peak district quarries I thought i'd take the canoe for a trip down the Derwent from Rowsley to Matlock, for a change of scene. I've got several friends who have done this and it appeared a popular outing based on the internet.  however, the day was rather ruined by aggressive and abusive attitudes of several fishermen along the way. I was dimly aware of issues over access to British waterways but didn't realize that basically there is is almost nowhere in England and Wales a part from canals and major rivers you can canoe, its all banned!

How do you paddlers out there cope? is this this something you just learn to put up with? I find the lack of access to rivers in Wales and England shocking for country that i thought was quite enlightened when it came to this sort of thing.

Boo - rant over. 

PS i will probably do this again when the rivers levels are higher and it will be more fun - the fishers can do one (unless anyone can explain to me how banning access on almost all inland navigable waterways not managed by the EA or CRT is justified). 

Post edited at 13:51
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In reply to ebdon:

Having been a compulsive fisherman there’s nothing worse than being on a small river and having someone come through on a kayak/ canoe. Particularly when the rivers low. It can totally ruin your day to the point you may as well go home.

Just for balance my partner has an inflatable canoe and I love it. 

Where there’s navigable permission in place (like most of the wye) I’ve always been polite and friendly with anyone coming through. 

Where it really gets annoying is where the rivers small, levels are low, people are repeatedly coming through and you know they don’t have permission. 

Fisherman pay for a licence with the EA, then additional fees to the landowner or managing club. Canoe and kayak users generally don’t pay anything and I think that adds to a level of resentment. 

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 toad 14:12 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

As someone who probably paddles more than he climbs at the moment.....

It's a massive pain in the arse.

There is a defendable position that posits that there is a historic right of access to almost all waters, but it's never been properly tested. Neither the fisherfolk or Canoe England/ Wales have been keen to test it in court for all sorts of reasons. There is some water to go at, but it depends where you are -- the lakes has quite a lot, The Midlands less so. Once you have exhausted the joys of the Trent and the Soar (which are fun) You are then basically left with canals, or risking the ire of maggot drowners. There isn't a lot they can do, other than threaten physical violence/ fire maggots/ throw rocks so it depends how bolshy you are feeling.

We are way overdue for water access like Scotland has, but realistically, we need a change of Govt for that as the Tories are firmly on the side of riparian landowners. There is a longstanding campaign by Canoe England / wales but historically, they were rather more focussed on sporting success/ medals and recreational paddling took a back seat (cf BMC). That does seem to be becoming less so these days, but water access doesn't get the same attention that the hills do. No mass trespasses, no CROW equivalent

Sorry

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In reply to ChristianTyroll:

This is interesting - I was hoping to get a response from I fisher - as i'm genuinely interested why does it ruin your day? I know sod all about fishing. 

Would it be less of a problem at high flow? I appreciate not many real paddlers would have been out yesterday as it was quite tame and I am something of a punter. 

One guy did state we couldn't go past as he paid £440 a year to fish, which didn't seem particularly relevant to me. ( should probably add I was polite to everyone as I'm a nice guy! (and i hate confrontation)

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 toad 14:16 Mon
In reply to ChristianTyroll:

paddlers , like everyone else pay a lot for the upkeep of waterways, and that argument is dangerously close to the argument for closing grouse moors to ramblers.

PS I pay a mahoosive amount in navigation licenses for my bigger boat, and nothing grinds the gears more than some angler setting up on a lock mooring, but we'll let that pass. Everyone has a group to Other

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In reply to ebdon:

> One guy did state we couldn't go past as he paid £440 a year to fish, which didn't seem particularly relevant to me. ( should probably add I was polite to everyone as I'm a nice guy! (and i hate confrontation)

This brings up some wonderful mental imagery of a guy on the bank telling you that you can't go past him, how was he planning to stop you?

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 joem 14:26 Mon
In reply to ChristianTyroll:

Have you considered that Kayakers etc don't kill living creatures in the name of fun.

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 tom r 14:29 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

Having had a quick look at this https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/go-canoeing/access-and-environment/access-to-water. It does sound a bit of a grey legal area.

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 Toccata 14:29 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

Wow. I’ve been padding rivers in England for 20 years and never knew I needed permissions. I suppose that explains a few confrontations over the years.

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In reply to Andrew Lodge:

he was in the river so alas blocked us, however I just got out as there was a pull out just at the side (an advantage of the inflatable is very easy to carry) walked 100m along the bank and got in again. the guy was very polite and i didn't want to argue but I don't know what he expected me to do, walk several miles back along the road in a wet suit carrying a canoe to my car after slogging through loads of fields (which would definitly be trespassing)? 

The guys on the bank I either ignored or said a cheery 'sorry!' to.  I hope i didn't ruin anyone's day. 

Post edited at 14:35
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In reply to ebdon:

> This is interesting - I was hoping to get a response from I fisher - as i'm genuinely interested why does it ruin your day? I know sod all about fishing.

It can ruin their day when

1) you snag their lines and damage them, or drag them into a snag where they get lost

2) they have to reel their lines in to keep them from situation (1) everytime a canoe / paddleboarder comes through

3) you scare the fish away from the area they've put attractants (groundbait / pre-bait) in.

4) they wanted a peaceful calm day and noisy kayakers break the quiet.

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 Graeme G 14:34 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

It apparently disturbs the fish, who then bugger off somewhere else. 

I rafted the Findhorn and the company with the licence were very clear that access only exists as an understanding between them and the fishing community.

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In reply to ebdon:

Had the same issues a month or two ago - did the same trip. Only real problem was in the Rowsley to Darley Bridge section. We were asked to get out but politely ignored the request.

Some legal info about kayaking – see ‘further information on access’...

https://matlockcanoeclub.co.uk/the-river/river-access/

And what the anglers think...

https://www.anglingtrust.net/news.asp?section=29&itemid=3624

Steve

Ps we did decide to go to a post apocalyptic quarry yesterday : )

Post edited at 14:36
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In reply to ebdon:

As an (ex) passionate angler I was always super polite to everyone. Problem is, the pastime attracts an enormous number of thick, aggressive low lifes. Many more than its fair share.

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In reply to Toerag:

Right - totally makes sense, but surely some courteous behavior from both sides is all that is needed? I approached everyone i say with a line very slowly - tried to spot what they were doing and completely  avoided them, I also value peace and quite - which is why I love exploring these places so can totally get your forth point but surly this argument is a bit like me banning all other hill users apart from climbers as I don't want to see garish day glow mountain bikes on the trails* noisy para gliders large large groups of chatty walkers? cant we share? or are the two pass times totally incompatable?

* My bike is neon orange so perhaps not this one.

Post edited at 14:44
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In reply to ChristianTyroll:

> Fisherman pay for a licence with the EA, then additional fees to the landowner or managing club. Canoe and kayak users generally don’t pay anything

Certainly on our stretch of the Thames, I reckon it's the other way around - the kayaks are all licensed, and most of the fishers are unencumbered by rod licenses or permits...

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 mondite 15:02 Mon
In reply to Andrew Lodge:

> This brings up some wonderful mental imagery of a guy on the bank telling you that you can't go past him, how was he planning to stop you?

Did have one rather entertaining incident whilst kayaking on either Findhorn or Tay.

Some bloke rather angrily shouted at us that we should have asked him which side to pass on.

Cue a bemused response of "correct if you are wading in the river but not when on the bank".

Met a few very angry fishermen in SE England but in Scotland where they pay some rather insane amounts for the pleasure of not catching things aside from that one bloke never had an issue.

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In reply to Graeme G:

> I rafted the Findhorn and the company with the licence were very clear that access only exists as an understanding between them and the fishing community.

There has been a right of navigation on the Spey since the days when timber was floated down the river to the shipyards at Garmouth : http://www.speymouth.co.uk/shipbuilding-on-the-spey/

Since the Access legislation was implemented stretches of the the Spey have also been designated a Core Path: http://www.pesdapress.com/pdfs/RiverSpeyCanoeGuide.pdf

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In reply to ebdon:

Just go sea kayaking instead, less hassle and more enjoyable with appropriate equipment and training for a safe trip

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 ScraggyGoat 15:22 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

Every group has some bell-ends, and the more affluent and entitled they feel the bigger they are.  I was once travelling past Shiel Foot (Scotland) (a posh fly river) on my way to paddle out to the Isle of Eigg.  Thought as I was in the area I'd have a look at the River Shiel from the bank for reference as I had it in mind to paddle in the late Autumn, so checked the old bridge pool.  Fisherman seeing the boats on the roof stops his car and comes over shouting you can't paddle the River, 'Excuse me are you saying you have suspend access rights' ~ reply Yes., 'What for and how long'., Permanently came the reply.  'Estates cannot suspend access rights permanently'.  You could see his face having been caught out, a mix of rage that I was questioning his authority and embarrassment for being so thick,  so he tried another trick 'its not possible to paddle the river, you can't get past the out-fall'.  'Err excuse me you can on a high tide'. No, no, no, no, no you can't its not navigable, people capsize and get stuck and drown. My reply 'There was me thinking they warp-ed the old Loch Shiel ferry up the river on its maiden voyage, its a bit bigger than a kayak, and fishermen drown too you know' ...... at which point he descended to shouting F***ck-*ff repeatedly for several minutes, and drove off.

I went to look at the outfall, he was there with a ghillie and another fisherman already fishing, immediately he start shouting f**ck-off again, the estate Ghillie did nothing to stop him. Funny thing was this was without even being on the water, which I was legally entitled to do if I wanted.

Walked down to the outfall, asked the chap fishing if he didn't mind a me having look, would it disturb him, he was as polite and friendly and we had a chat, so there is probably a decent fisherman for every knob, the problem is they don't police their own anti-social  elements and their representative organisations have no interest in 'sharing' and promote/condone aggressive behavior to paddlers. As many want 'exclusivity'.

Post edited at 15:24
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In reply to kevin stephens:

yeah, but sketchy as f**k on the trusty inflatable! - as i have found out to my cost! I also live in the midlands which is alas along way from the sea.... 

I have been banned from buying any more large items of outdoor equipment, as apparently I have something of a problem in this regard, time to get a bigger shed perhaps.... 

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 Graeme G 15:30 Mon
In reply to rabthecairnterrier:

 I know loads kayak the river but maybe their situation is peculiar to a rafting licence? Or maybe I heard them wrong.....

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In reply to ebdon:

Please be careful when paddling in areas you don't know.  I'm no expert but am told that if a swan is disturbed from it's nest then it will move to a new area and to assert territory (?) will kill any cygnets it comes across. 

Paddlers on the river Avon (Hampshire) are being blamed for the fact that all the cygnets in the area are now dead.

I'm sure there is someone who is more knowledgeable than me on swan behavior!

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 Doug 15:52 Mon
In reply to Graeme G:

>  I know loads kayak the river but maybe their situation is peculiar to a rafting licence? Or maybe I heard them wrong.....


I've paddled some stretches of the Findhorn & have never heard of any licences

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In reply to ebdon:

I think someone above detailed why it can ruin fisherman's day quite well. Depending on where you are you can invest quite a lot of time and effort into catching a fish then to have it disturbed by the boat and that's the chance gone. 

It sounds like you're being polite and courteous so I wouldn't worry about it. Often fisherman take it all pretty seriously and there's not necessarily a lot you can do about that. 

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In reply to toad:

A lot of paddlers don't though, equally there will be a lot of fisherman who don't.

My dad has a boat on the Thames and he also pays a hefty amount for the licence, we regularly see lots of people without licences. 

With regards to the grouse moors, I see where you are coming from. The point of view I presented isn't the one I have now. I just thought it would be useful to share it as I know it still exists at least reasonably widely. 

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 marsbar 16:11 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

There have been some historical issues on that section.  

The law is old and inconsistent.  It would appear that paddlers most probably have the right to float but people do own the riverbank and bed.  

Fishermen have been told by the people who own the land that this isn't the case.  So they pay money and expect no paddlers.   

In the past some people tried to sort this out by making agreements with landowners.  This backfired as it appeared to show we didn't have access without an agreement.  

There were some cases going on but I've lost track to be honest I don't know what the current situation is.  

I have to say I haven't had problems from fishermen, I do always try to be considerate.  However I do wonder if they are just less likely to swear at women.  I honestly don't know. 

There won't be a problem on the Trent because it is a river with clear navigation rights.  

The Darley Abbey section of the Derwent is usually fine, there is or was a canoe club there anyway.  You can paddle into Derby, but there are weirs.  

These days I tend to paddle on a big lake where the access is clear, or the Trent.  When I get chance the sea is great but its not something I'd do alone.  

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 marsbar 16:12 Mon
In reply to Gareth:

That sounds like a made up story to me.  

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In reply to ChristianTyroll:

Thanks, I appreciate the reply, always good to get others points of view on these things. 

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In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Every fisherman needs to buy a rod licence unless they are fishing tidal or sea, even if they fish on private land. They might not require a permit though if it is a public spot or have landowners permission. 

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In reply to marsbar:

Cheers, I get the impression there is a fair bit of history with this section of river! I almost certainly will do it again however, but perhaps not on a sunny Sunday afternoon. Thanks for the tip re Darley Abbey - I was half wondering if i could get the train to Derby (or Matlock) and canoe all the way home which could be a super fun micro adventure from my front door. (although navigating the weirs may become tiresome). and obvs not at the moment as non essential use of public transport!

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In reply to Graeme G:

>  I know loads kayak the river but maybe their situation is peculiar to a rafting licence? Or maybe I heard them wrong.....

The access legislation does not discriminate between a raft or a kayak. There is no requirement for a licence.

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 mondite 16:33 Mon
In reply to rabthecairnterrier:

> The access legislation does not discriminate between a raft or a kayak. There is no requirement for a licence.


Possibly referencing to access points?

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In reply to ebdon:

I used to kayak a fair bit, and have always fished.  I also have a boat with an engine and fish finder.

Kayaks disturb the fish less than anglers think.  In fact, i know some fishermen who reckon a barge coming past them on a canal can improve the fishing - certainly doesn't cause a problem.

Kayaks can cause damage if they scrape along a gravel bed full of fish eggs, but probably minimum.

I don't fish rivers anymore, but if I did and canoeists came past i'd have a good chat with them.  And when I'm on Coniston or Windermere they usually give me a wide birth when they see the size of the fish I catch !!

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 marsbar 16:51 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

I've done Matlock to Derby. 

I don't recommend the whole trip as there is dangerous weir in the middle of a derelict factory site which required a long walk and climbing a fence (we were given permission)  

Having said that, this  was years ago and it may have been knocked down by now.  

There certainly used to be issues at a garden centre but no one spoke to us.  They stared but didn't say anything.  The rest I think was ok.  It was a long while back so I can't be certain. 

I've had a quick look at google maps.  I think the factory is still there, its marked as Ambergate wire works and various other things. You can see in google maps if you zoom there is a concrete bit across the river. 

Maybe Ambergate would be a good place to start but you'd have to ask around.  It looks like you may be able to get on behind the pub or petrol station but obviously ask first!

Apart from that I don't think there were any major problems, just a few weirs.  Certainly need to get out and go around at Belper.  

A sunny Sunday afternoon might not be the best time.  

Post edited at 17:14
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 Tobes 17:10 Mon
In reply to joem:

> Have you considered that Kayakers etc don't kill living creatures in the name of fun.

Course fishing (perch, roach, bream etc) is catch and release - we can argue the merits of that another time

Game fishing (Salmon, Sea trout and brown trout) which is likely to be the type of fishing discussed here can also be catch and release or catch and kill (for personal consumption) 

Other than young children and serial killers - I don’t think anyone ‘kills things for fun‘.

Just addressing you sweeping statement 

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In reply to mondite:

Nope, no need for a license/permission there either, not even for commercial outfits. The only possibility would be asking the landowners permission to use a motor vehicle on a private road or track to transport the raft to a launch point, which would only happen in your desired launch spot was too far away to carry the thing.

I spent over 10 years as a member of a statutory Local Access Forum, and for most of that time was its Chairman.(https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/act-and-access-code/local-access-forums) Never came across any requirement for a licence for any activity permitted under the Land Reform Act. It would defeat the purpose of the legislation.

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 marsbar 17:19 Mon
In reply to ChristianTyroll:

I honestly don't believe we need permission.  If we did then one of the landowners or fishing clubs would have taken it to court by now.  They won't because they are likely to lose.  Owning the river bed doesn't give the right to the water.  

I have and will always do my best to be polite to fishermen, to follow reasonable requests and to be quiet.  

I appreciate it may be annoying to have to share, but I don't think it is something you can pay to avoid, anymore than you own the mountains or the sea.  

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In reply to ChristianTyroll:

> Every fisherman needs to buy a rod licence unless they are fishing tidal or sea, even if they fish on private land.

I know this - it just seems that lots of the local fishers don't!  You'd also think they'd know about things like closed season, but it seems not.

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In reply to Tobes:

> Course fishing (perch, roach, bream etc) is catch and release - we can argue the merits of that another time

> Game fishing (Salmon, Sea trout and brown trout) which is likely to be the type of fishing discussed here can also be catch and release or catch and kill (for personal consumption) 

> Other than young children and serial killers - I don’t think anyone ‘kills things for fun‘.

> Just addressing you sweeping statement 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4966592.stm

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In reply to mick taylor:

I was told by a fisherman that 'a disturbed fish is a hungry fish'.

However, there have been several nasty and violent attacks on kayakers in North Wales, particularly on the River Ogwen. This is a very useful resource regarding river access: https://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=60

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In reply to ebdon:

Before this thread dissapears I forgot to add - and this may be of interest to some locals, this stretch of the river is currently a little surreal due to the large amount of hay bales perched about 5m up in trees! which frankly is feking nuts as these things must way nearly a tonne! I presume a farmer lost a stack in the floods earlier this year. It was scary thinking how high and powerful the river must have been. shame about all the black plastic wrapping everywhere though. 

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In reply to ebdon:

I do both. One kayak drifting through steadily on the opposite bank makes little or no difference. You can even ask which side is best for them, in case they are deliberately targeting a pool on the opposite or near side. To a fish, a careful kayaker will just be a log drifting by. 

On the negative side. Have a knife handy, it's no unheard of for some fisher folk to deliberately cast at kayakers. 

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In reply to marsbar:

> I honestly don't believe we need permission.  If we did then one of the landowners or fishing clubs would have taken it to court by now.  They won't because they are likely to lose.  Owning the river bed doesn't give the right to the water.  

Correct. That's why there are access agreements and specific portage points. But once on the water the river is yours as much as anyone's elses.

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In reply to summo:

I presume in a cutting lines sort of way rather than a duel to the death with enraged fishermen sort of way ;-) 

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 philipivan 18:59 Mon
In reply to toad:

I've been kayaking in the UK and worldwide for about 25 years. My dad is a fisherman. Occasionally in Wales and the lake district I've had a bit of abuse but generally you can paddle anywhere that's accessible by public land (footpaths/ laybys etc) and has a right of navigation (which is arguably anywhere). It can get pretty bad but I don't think it's as bad as it used to be. More remote areas with higher water levels is unlikely to cause any issue. Access is pretty much 100% open in Scotland on whitewater in my experience and internationally I've never had any problems. 

There have been court cases but generally they don't go anywhere unless there is a commercial interest. I'll probably just get on with it as I've done for some time. I love kayaking but the nature of rivers in the UK makes it a frustrating sport compared to the Alps or Canada for instance. I guess that's why every kayaker seems to own a mountain bike these days! 

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 Billhook 19:11 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

I am an occasional angler.  And I am also a canoeist.

I agree with most of whats been said above.

 Fish are a bit like most wildlife.  Many species of fish get used to human presence if you go quietly.  But fish can be notoriously fickle - much like some wildlife.   One of the real problems with canoes is if you've attracted some fish into you 'swim' with groundbait etc., , tand you are on a narrow river or you're in a swim with an easy 'exit' for fish, they are  likely to suddenly clear off.  And its not always possible to get them back.  But as someone else has pointed out disturbance can also can result in fish moving into your swim. 

The law is quite clear on canoeing.  There is no law against canoeing.  Therefore the presumption in law is that if there is no law stating canoeing is illegal.

On most tidal waters and rivers with navigational rights, you, the canoeist, have a legal right to poaddle and on navigable waters you have precedence over the rights of anglers.

However, there have been a couple of cases where canoeists have been prosecuted for breaking other laws.  One well known case dating back to 1972 Ranson v Peters a canoeist was prosecuted for disturbing a fishery even though no one was fishing.  The canoeists didn't bother turn up in court.  Nominal damages of 50p were awarded against the canoeists.!   I', also aware of a couple of cases where canoeists have been prosecuted under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975 for disturbing spawning grounds of salmon and/or seatrout.  This of course is unlikely to be an issue for the majority of our rivers.

I am always polite and ask which side of the river an angler would like me to pass by.  99% of fishermen are fine as long as you go quietly by.

So if you are ever told "No Canoeing" by a bailiff or some other person, all you need to do is politely ask him/her which law you are breaking.  ;-)

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 elsewhere 19:59 Mon
In reply to Gareth:

> Paddlers on the river Avon (Hampshire) are being blamed for the fact that all the cygnets in the area are now dead.

No paddlers but the swans in my local park don't seem to mind children, dogs off leash, cyclists and the Park run averaging three hundred runners. On the canal I think some nests are within 2m of the joggers, cyclists, dogs off leash and those strolling by on the path.

Very strange if rural swans are somehow unable to adapt in the way urban ones have.

Post edited at 20:24
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 marsbar 20:01 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

> I presume in a cutting lines sort of way rather than a duel to the death with enraged fishermen sort of way ;-) 

Probably best. 

I also carry a knife anyway, in case of getting tangled in rope or weeds.  

Handy for picnics too.  

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 derryclimbs 20:16 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

> How do you paddlers out there cope? is this this something you just learn to put up with? I find the lack of access to rivers in Wales and England shocking for country that i thought was quite enlightened when it came to this sort of thing.

I go out to sea. or paddle whitewater, which rarely has fisherman

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In reply to ebdon:

> I presume in a cutting lines sort of way rather than a duel to the death with enraged fishermen sort of way ;-) 

Guess it depends if you are the Crocodile Dundee of the kayaking world. 

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 IainL 21:28 Mon
In reply to mick taylor:

In other European countries fishermen welcome kayaks as they disturb the fish which then start feeding.

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 johncook 21:59 Mon
In reply to ebdon:

I sometimes feel the same as your anglers when I am walking up a footpath and have to jump out of the way of a speedy mountain bike, which shouldn't actually be ridden on a footpath! Happens too often to record. I often get shouted/cursed because I am on the path and not leaping into the bushes/bramble/nettles etc and I cause them to have to brake!

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 mattyP 22:04 Mon
In reply to johncook:

This ones difficult, I understand the annoyance at ill mannered cyclists but also I think our rules on footpath/bridleways are outdated and do nothing to encourage cycling as a hobby.

If cyclists are well mannered/if walkers and runners are well mannered really I can’t see a issue

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 syv_k 22:17 Mon
In reply to summo:

I carry scissors and have managed to retrieve cast hooks and stuff in bushes at eye level where they were dangerous and hand them to the nearest angler I see - I don’t know if it is worth it or just goes in the bin? Once the angler had just cast in the bushes out of reach and I managed to untangle things, and he did seem grateful. It seems a shame that the two groups can’t co-operate more - we could exchange intel on the murderswans round the next bend.

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In reply to Tobes:

>Other than young children and serial killers - I don’t think anyone ‘kills things for fun‘.

What in the wide world are you talking about?? You know there are whole industries enabling w*nkers to shoot deer, shoot grouse, shoot lions, shoot bears, etc??

jcm

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 deepsoup 07:31 Tue
 Tobes 07:40 Tue
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Read it in the context of who I was replying to, suggesting all anglers kill for fun (if they kill a fish it is likely to be eaten) and.....don’t take it so seriously, it was meant to be slightly tongue in cheek - 

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In reply to ebdon:

Well, be grateful for the BMC that you have because it could be the BCU which is absolute useless for access. Fishermen (and they are always men in my experience) are, shall we say, oft extremely unpleasant and rather over sure of their rights. Scotland has a somewhat more friendly and sane attitude to paddlers.

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 deepsoup 09:20 Tue
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

> Well, be grateful for the BMC that you have because it could be the BCU which is absolute useless for access.

It's just BC now.  They changed their name (with remarkably little fuss compared to some other organisations.)

They've raised their game considerably over access the last few years.
https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/go-canoeing/access-and-environment/access-to-water

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In reply to deepsoup:

About time! that's great news because they couldn't have got much worse.

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 Sl@te Head 10:57 Tue
In reply to phizz4:

> However, there have been several nasty and violent attacks on kayakers in North Wales, particularly on the River Ogwen.

I'm a member of the Ogwen fishing club (that obviously makes me a nasty and violent paddler hater..)

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 marsbar 12:18 Tue
In reply to Sl@te Head:

No one said that. 

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In reply to ebdon:

Ex paddler here, I would say 95% of the time a cheery hello have you caught anything from a good distance followed by asking where would you like me to pass keeps things civil. My old canoe club had agreed access rights to a stretch of the river wharf, it was a bit random though, left side so far then right side for a bit then left side again and the fishing club had access to the bits we didn't.

Most were fine but occasionally one would be a dick, some threatening to phone the police where I would reply "crack on then, we will be about 1/2 mile up river playing on the wier" police never came.

One prick did decide to try casting at us but he legged it quickly when I got out of my kayak. I think I must have looked a lot smaller sitting in a boat on the river than I did standing on the bank. 

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 Sl@te Head 14:14 Tue
In reply to marsbar:

> No one said that. 

Not in so many words, but as a theme in threads like this anglers do get a bit of a rough time.

For most of my life I have been an an active kayaker (Sea and Whitewater) and also an angler. So  I can see all of this from a different perspective. I've kayaked the Ogwen and am now a member of the fishing club....

Debates like this can be devisive, setting one sport or pastime against another and can often show the lack of knowledge some posters have. 

I've combined both sports over the years with some amazing memories of fly fishing for Salmon and Arctic Char on Sea Kayaking Expeditions in Alaska, Canada, Greenland and Scandinavia. I don't label myself as a 'paddler' or an 'angler' I do both, and combining the two works brilliantly

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 mondite 14:23 Tue
In reply to Sl@te Head:

> I'm a member of the Ogwen fishing club (that obviously makes me a nasty and violent paddler hater..)

No being someone who abuses paddlers makes you a paddler hater (or rather identifies you as one).

Simply being a member of a fishing club does not.

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 mondite 14:25 Tue
In reply to Sl@te Head:

> Debates like this can be devisive, setting one sport or pastime against another and can often show the lack of knowledge some posters have. 

What lack of knowledge enlightened one?

Is being abusive and aggressive really a sign of friendship for fishermen? Are they suffering from tourettes?

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 Sl@te Head 14:26 Tue
In reply to mondite:

Jeez, my original post was a bit tongue in cheek

I am simply a member of a fishing club (who also kayaks)

Post edited at 14:28
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 Sl@te Head 14:36 Tue
In reply to mondite:

> What lack of knowledge enlightened one?

> Is being abusive and aggressive really a sign of friendship for fishermen? Are they suffering from tourettes?

I'm enlightened enough to know that your last comment could be seem as insulting to those who genuinely suffer from Tourettes.

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 marsbar 14:38 Tue
In reply to Sl@te Head:

I've always tried my best not to upset fishermen (it is always men, never seen a woman yet) and I'm certainly not against them.  As I said I've never had a problem, I expected it at the A6 garden centre but just got stared at.  Probably as it was myself and another woman. I rather think that the small minority who do have an issue have a bit of a testosterone thing going on and don't tend to get so agro at "ladies"

I don't approve of landowners trying to keep the "plebs" out of the countryside in whichever way and that is a different thing.

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In reply to ebdon:

I've fished from boat and canoe and caught fish that have taken fly or bait within arms reach of my vessel. The whole it scares the fish is BS imo and an excuse for not being a better fisherman. 

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 marsbar 14:52 Tue
In reply to ebdon:

Happened to find this for future reference.  Derbyshire Derwent has navigation rights.  King John said so.  :D

https://www.paddlepeak.org/access

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 Sl@te Head 14:53 Tue
In reply to Baron Weasel:

I caught a good trout in Slovenia on a dry fly literally seconds after a kayaker had passed the very spot, the water was so clear you could see the behaviour of the fish, in that situation the trout was not at all phased by the Kayak. 

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 marsbar 14:54 Tue
In reply to Sl@te Head:

I do think there are a very small number of fishermen looking for someone to get cross with.  Some people are just like that, whatever their hobby.  

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In reply to johncook:

Hi John,

I am always very polite to any walkers, but I know there are some daft/rude mountain bikers out there.

My understanding of the footpath legislation is that it doesn't say anything about bicycles as it written before they existed, and there is no relevant case law in England. This would mean that cycling on footpaths is currently legal, in much the same way as kayaking on rivers, and that all the signs saying your should not are requests. 

Hope future mountain bikers are kinder!

R

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 marsbar 15:54 Tue
In reply to RobertHepburn:

I was under the impression that cycles were treated the same as horses, so are permitted on bridleways but not footpaths.  

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 Lankyman 16:20 Tue
In reply to RobertH

> My understanding of the footpath legislation is that it doesn't say anything about bicycles as it written before they existed, and there is no relevant case law in England. This would mean that cycling on footpaths is currently legal

Hence the numerous signs telling cyclists they have no right to cycle on this footpath and bringing their sport into disrepute? I for one am fed up of 'disreputable' cyclists flying past me whether polite or not. They have as much right to ride a public footpath as a motorcycle to ride a bridleway.

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 mattyP 17:11 Tue
In reply to RobertHepburn:

This implies it’s trespass (a civil matter) so not illegal unless there’s a specific by law.

But I genuinely don’t understand the aggro walkers desperate to protect the footpaths for pedestrians, let’s just share. It’s a bit nimby like an antiMass trespass attitude, stopping other leisure users on their patch. 
 

and yes some riders are dumb, so are some runners (I’ve been told off as both) but then so are plenty of walkers/dog walkers etc

Post edited at 17:18
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In reply to Gareth:

> Paddlers on the river Avon (Hampshire) are being blamed for the fact that all the cygnets in the area are now dead.

Nothing to do with hook, line & sinker detritus left lying around, then...?

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 Sl@te Head 19:15 Tue
In reply to captain paranoia:

Just to balance things out, Kayakers are not entirely free of blame either, every scrape along a rock will leave shards of plastic / micro plastics in our rivers...

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 mattyP 20:37 Tue
In reply to Sl@te Head:

That must be incredibly minimal.... it's really scraping the bottom of the barrel or in this case kayak to use that as a counter arguement! I'd imagine the washing of your clothes probably contributes more. 

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 Sl@te Head 22:36 Tue
In reply to mattyP:

Agree, however if you look at a well used plastic kayak, the plastic from all those scratches must end up somewhere....

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 marsbar 22:40 Tue
In reply to Sl@te Head:

I’ve pulled more plastic litter out of rivers and off beaches than I’ve scratched off my boat by a factor of thousands at least.  I’m sure I’m not the only one.  

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 Sl@te Head 22:47 Tue
In reply to marsbar:

Same here, but I do feel guilty leaving any plastic behind whether it's from my Kayaking, fishing or anything else for that matter.

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 deepsoup 22:59 Tue
In reply to Sl@te Head:

> Same here, but I do feel guilty leaving any plastic behind whether it's from my Kayaking, fishing or anything else for that matter.

Likewise.  I've become slightly evangelical about sponges - Halfords do a decent sized cellulose sponge which works just as well as a urethane one for bailing out, and it's guilt-free if you accidentally chuck it in the sea/river.

On the subject of the Ogwen, I had a quick look at UKRGB to see if there was anything on there about the strife mentioned above.  There's nothing recent, but last time it was updated there was a letter added, addressed to paddlers, from the secretary of the Ogwen Valley Angling Association.  It's really rather good.

https://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/rivers/wales/north/afon-ogwen-ogwen-bank-falls-to-a55-bridge

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In reply to Sl@te Head:

https://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28992

If you do a bit of searching you will find information about an incident on the Ogwen, when a kayaker had a rock thrown at them by a fisherman, causing a serious injury. I believe the situation has settled down in recent years, but I have encountered hostility from fishermen when paddling the coast of Anglesey, (fishing lines can be very hard to see from a sea kayak), The Mawddach and The Trent.

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 Sl@te Head 09:16 Wed
In reply to phizz4:

As I've said previously I've seen and experienced things from both sides.

I've had lead weights deliberately cast towards me (only narrowly missing me) whilst sea kayaking on the Anglesey coast. Has to be said the anglers were not from Anglesey judging by their accents!

It's true, there are many anglers who are absolute idiots but sadly there are also kayakers and climbers who fall in to that category.

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