I saw a mink

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 Lankyman 09 May 2021

Sat drinking tea by the River Clough at Farfield Mill near Sedbergh. This pitch black mink runs across the rocks and swims across to the far side. I don't think I've seen one before. Lots of stoats and weasels but not mink. Last saw it swimming downstream. Not good for the local wildlife.

1
 Tom Valentine 09 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

Beautiful creatures. 

16
 afx22 09 May 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I used to see loads when out fishing.  Most was 13 (2 adults and pups) on the River Don in Doncaster.  I’ve also had a juvenile one crawl over my feet.

They’re deemed to be a nuisance species by the Environment Agency and are thought to be responsible to the demise of native species such as the water vole.

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 Tom Valentine 09 May 2021
In reply to afx22:

Yes I know about mink, water vole etc.It's  a  great pity. Hopefully otter predation on mink will allow our ecosystem to balance out and accept mink as part of our wildlife.

Post edited at 21:03
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 TobyA 09 May 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Otters can kill mink?! Really? Aren't they about the same size and mink famously ferocious?

 profitofdoom 09 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

I was once in Wendy's Cafe in Llanberis AT THE SAME TIME as Pete Minks (and Al Harris)

Oh very sorry, this should have been posted in the "Tenuous links to fame!" thread

 65 09 May 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Like other mustelids, otters are nails and are substantially bigger, they will see off mink. They probably don't prey on them per se, more that the mink will avoid otter territory. 

 Ciro 09 May 2021
In reply to TobyA:

An adult otter will be about five or six times the weight of an adult mink... otters will go for mink and the mink will usually run.

 arch 09 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

Otters are decimating Barbel stocks in certain rivers.

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 TobyA 09 May 2021
In reply to Ciro:

Are there different types of mink? You are allowed to kill them in Finland where ones escaped from fur farms cause much trouble. I thought they were bigger than native mustelids  species (except wolverines) that include otter, but might just have got my facts wrong.

 Ciro 09 May 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> Are there different types of mink? You are allowed to kill them in Finland where ones escaped from fur farms cause much trouble. I thought they were bigger than native mustelids  species (except wolverines) that include otter, but might just have got my facts wrong.

I think you have for your facts wrong - there was a larger sea mink, but that's extinct.

 65 09 May 2021
In reply to arch:

> Otters are decimating Barbel stocks in certain rivers.

Are barbel an introduced and/or managed/farmed fish or a native wild species?

 Donotello 10 May 2021
In reply to 65:

Native wild species. 

 Fozzy 10 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

An unfortunate consequence of animal rights idiots releasing them, thinking they were doing the right thing when in fact their actions wreaked havoc on biodiversity.

I’m not justifying fur farming in any way, but dumping huge amounts of a veracious predator into the wild is utterly ridiculous. At least mink aren’t too tricky to trap & deal with. 

2
Removed User 10 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

I take my kid weasel 'hunting'. We make a bow and some arrows from sticks, of course we won't get anything, but it gets them moving stealthily and being quiet and observant and we see all sorts of things; weasels, stoats, some local mammals, frogs etc. No mink around here sadly.

 Fozzy 10 May 2021
In reply to Removed Userwaitout:

> No mink around here sadly.

That’s a good thing. 

 Doug 10 May 2021
In reply to TobyA:

There are at least two spp of mink - a European sp which I don't think has ever lived in the UK and is one of the rarest European mammals.  Most of the remaining populations are  in Northern Spain & SW France but there is also a small population on the coast of Estonia. I imagine it would have occured in Finland in the past.

Meanwhile the American mink has been grown for its fur & frequently escaped in the UK and many other European countries (eg Denmark). and is considered to be a danger for many native spp

 arch 10 May 2021
In reply to 65:

Native, although they were also stocked into rivers that didn't hold them.

The release of Otters is having an impact on fish stocks all over the country.

I'm not wanting to get into an argument on here because it'll just descend into a slanging match as it always does.

But, the impact Otters are having on some rivers and lakes is devastating for the fish and anglers who like to catch them. Many lake and ponds are having to fence off their waters to stop Otters gaining entry. Obviously it's not possible to do the same on rivers. They mostly just eat the soft underbelly and leave the rest. They were released into some rivers and just left to fend for themselves with out any thought to the damage they'll do to other species. 

Fine for the Otter, not good for the Fish.

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 Michael Hood 10 May 2021
In reply to arch:

But it should reach a natural balance. When not enough fish the otter population will decline (or at least stop growing).

However, if fish stock is artificially replenished, then this natural balance will be somewhat affected resulting in more otters.

Similarly, if fishing ponds/lakes are available, then the balance will be towards more otters. Probably a good idea to make these otter proof.

The problem/conflict is of course that it makes successful angling harder if there are less fish.

On a "natural" river, anglers who don't return the fish (e.g. trout) are effectively a completing predator alongside the otters, and before otters were there, the "natural" balance maintained by fishing would have more fish there (less predation).

Where fish are returned by anglers, their effect on the natural balance will be minimal but they will (as you've pointed out) see that the balance has changed to a lower amount of fish where otters are about.

In a completely wild environment, otter numbers would also have been affected by whatever used to predate on them - although I'm struggling to think what that predator might have been.

 Tom Valentine 10 May 2021
In reply to Fozzy:

Just been reading an eradication plan for mink and at the end there was a Plan B which made me smile a bit: draw a line between Dumbarton and Alloa  and confine the cull to areas south of that line.

I suppose it would also work the other way round.

OP Lankyman 10 May 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I did see a couple of animal traps up above the river, like the ones you see on grouse moors to trap 'vermin'. Maybe someone is trying to catch them by the Clough.

 Colin Moody 10 May 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> In a completely wild environment, otter numbers would also have been affected by whatever used to predate on them - although I'm struggling to think what that predator might have been.

I know someone who saw a pair of white tailed eagles kill an otter.

 Michael Hood 10 May 2021
In reply to Colin Moody:

Hadn't thought of aerial predators because I was thinking about otters coming back in mainly southern England and nothing's big enough - but of course there's that white-tailed eagle re-introduction program on the Isle of Wight, so maybe eventually...

 Fozzy 10 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> I did see a couple of animal traps up above the river, like the ones you see on grouse moors to trap 'vermin'. Maybe someone is trying to catch them by the Clough.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/wildlife/research/mammals/american-mink/the-gwct-mi...

Mink rafts are your best bet, with a live-catch trap on them. My last house/land had a brook running through it that fed into the Teme, and as well as an abundance of wildlife, we unfortunately had mink. I deployed a couple of rafts and, over the space of a couple of years, took over 20 mink off my 1/2 mile stretch. 

 mondite 10 May 2021
In reply to arch:

> The release of Otters is having an impact on fish stocks all over the country.

Otters havent been released for over twenty years (outside of rehabilitated animals) and formed only a small part of the recovery from the remaining strongholds and they were only released into rivers with a recorded history of otters. The rehabilitated ones are released as close as possible to where they were found.

OP Lankyman 10 May 2021
In reply to Fozzy:

I think the mink I saw would have ridden a raft down the river. It was most impressive how it body surfed down the rapids with impunity.

 profitofdoom 10 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

I saw LOADS of minks in Thailand

Oh sorry, that was monks

1
OP Lankyman 10 May 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

> I saw LOADS of minks in Thailand

> Oh sorry, that was monks

I know where you can see lots of Mancs

and there's a Minke in the Thames!

Post edited at 18:29
 65 10 May 2021
In reply to arch:

> I'm not wanting to get into an argument on here because it'll just descend into a slanging match as it always does.

A good way of avoiding getting into arguments is not posting an opinion or argument, which you then went on to do. I hate to tell you this but it invites people to legitimately challenge your statements.

Post edited at 20:46
 arch 11 May 2021
In reply to 65:

There's debate and then there's argument, which on here tends to include insults as well, and I'd rather not be insulted for my opinion thanks. (Not aimed at you BTW)

There's plenty of opinions on the impact Otters have on fish stocks on fishing forums, and from a few people who know their stuff, maybe they are wrong, who knows. But paying to fence off a fishery on the off chance an Otter might just wander by and help themselves, gives me the belief that there may be a problem. 

In the Otter Vs Fish debate, I'm on the Fishes side, but because they're wet and slimy and not cute and furry, the Fish is on to a loser from the start. 

9
 guffers_hump 11 May 2021
In reply to arch:

The fighting for fishing angling trust has an article on it.

This is one of the first lines "It stood to reason that any additional predator arriving on the scene could pose a further threat to riverine fish populations, already under stress due to existing factors such as poor water quality and low flows."

So really its humans fault that the fish already have a low population then to have the audacity to blame otters.

2
 Fozzy 11 May 2021
In reply to 65:

> A good way of avoiding getting into arguments is not posting an opinion or argument, which you then went on to do. I hate to tell you this but it invites people to legitimately challenge your statements.

I love the “Am I not aloud [sic] an opinion?!” response, usually deployed on FB by a halfwit who doesn’t realise that opinions aren’t facts or infallible, and that by posting on a public forum, they are opening themselves up to critical responses. I can only put it down to them going to the sort of schools that didn’t have debating societies.  

Post edited at 09:29
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 Tom Valentine 11 May 2021
In reply to Fozzy:

Pleased to say I went to that sort of school ( and also worked in one for 33 years).

1
 mondite 11 May 2021
In reply to arch:

> There's debate and then there's argument, which on here tends to include insults as well, and I'd rather not be insulted for my opinion thanks. (Not aimed at you BTW)

You did make statements about otters"released into some rivers and just left to fend for themselves with out any thought to the damage they'll do to other species" which is somewhat misleading.

The number of otters released was small and into rivers where they had an existing recent(ish) history. The project was cancelled when it was seen that the numbers were recovering naturally.

It would be returning rivers to the original baseline or at least somewhat closer. The problem is some in the fishing community want an artifical level of fish which doesnt work to well with predators.

Mink are a different matter since throwing a new predator into the mix can have serious impact on species which havent evolved alongside them. A reverse example is red vs grey squirrels where there is some evidence indicating that if we allow pine martins to recover it would help the reds out since they have evolved alongside the martins and the greys havent.

1
 arch 11 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

 https://www.northdevonanglingnews.co.uk/2019/08/28/otters-a-wider-perspecti...

A long read. But the captive breeding program section is interesting, especially the last few paragraphs.

 65 11 May 2021
In reply to Fozzy:

> I love the “Am I not aloud [sic] an opinion?!” response, usually deployed on FB by a halfwit who doesn’t realise that opinions aren’t facts or infallible, and that by posting on a public forum, they are opening themselves up to critical responses. I can only put it down to them going to the sort of schools that didn’t have debating societies.  

Yes, though my school didn't have a debating society and I don't think I was aware of their existence until I went to university as a mature student.

The use of "but" is a reveal. I tend to think it is worse than you describe. The whole, "I'm not going to get into this/I think we should drop this/etc, but" device is generally deployed by weak-minded people who feel the need to get the last word and get their view across but know that they haven't got an argument to back it up so they use it to attempt to block discussion. I have a friend who is really bad for this.

See also, "I'm entitled to my opinion."

OP Lankyman 11 May 2021
In reply to mondite:

Interesting stuff. Can we somehow persuade otters and pine martens to combine to take on the mink/grey threat? Desperate times call for radical solutions.

 arch 11 May 2021
In reply to 65: and Fozzy.

I love the “Am I not aloud [sic] an opinion?!” response, usually deployed on FB by a halfwit who doesn’t realise that opinions aren’t facts or infallible, and that by posting on a public forum, they are opening themselves up to critical responses. I can only put it down to them going to the sort of schools that didn’t have debating societies.  

> Yes, though my school didn't have a debating society and I don't think I was aware of their existence until I went to university as a mature student.

> The use of "but" is a reveal. I tend to think it is worse than you describe. The whole, "I'm not going to get into this/I think we should drop this/etc, but" device is generally deployed by weak-minded people who feel the need to get the last word and get their view across but know that they haven't got an argument to back it up so they use it to attempt to block discussion. I have a friend who is really bad for this.

> See also, "I'm entitled to my opinion."

Guys, guys.

I can only apologise for my lack of debating skill, I only went to a comprehensive school and I left there at sixteen to get myself a job, so naturally I didn't receive the level of education needed to be able to post something on UKC/H which is of the required standard. Just my opinion of course. 

Soz.

1
 Tom Valentine 11 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

Sounds like a fairly natural solution to me.

 Seocan 13 May 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Nope, i remember a photo of my dad cradling one in his arms that was trapped on the Dee near Banchory, it was about the size of a spaniel.


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